High Definition Props and Textures - Discussion thread

[RippleJet]

But There is one with 35, which would be over the 32 limit:
In NetworkAddonMod_Roundabouts_Avenues_Plugin.dat
the model with IID: 0x584ADFF0

Indeed! But the material numbering scheme of that model is indeed far from that implemented by BAT.
I guess you manually add the materials in Reader for puzzle pieces?
The layout of the materials on a puzzle piece is also quite different from that on building and prop models.

[Jonathan]

Indeed! But the material numbering scheme of that model is indeed far from that implemented by BAT.
I guess you manually add the materials in Reader for puzzle pieces?
The layout of the materials on a puzzle piece is also quite different from that on building and prop models.

Not quite sure what you mean? A S3D for puzzle pieces and BATs are identical in the inside, they are not a different format.

And when adding a texture to a puzzle you do add it in the mats tab in the reader. But the UV coordinates can be done either in the reader or 3ds max.

Jonathan

[RippleJet]

Not quite sure what you mean? A S3D for puzzle pieces and BATs are identical in the inside, they are not a different format.

I've never made a puzzle piece, and I've never batted a building either, so I might be completely on a sidetrack here...

However, the textures applied on puzzle pieces seem to be planar, viewed from above (in the negative Y axis), whereas textures for building and prop models are isometric, and thus e.g. cannot be scaled between the zooms, since the viewing angle (above horizon) is different for each zoom (with the exception of zoom 6, which has the same angle as zoom 5).

[Jonathan]

Puzzle piece models are True3D, they aren't isometric, and there is only one model for all rotations, and on several only one model for all zooms.

Jonathan

[RippleJet]

Puzzle piece models are True3D, they aren't isometric, and there is only one model for all rotations, and on several only one model for all zooms.

Of course, and I probably knew that as well...
Thanks for explaining the basics of puzzling to me!

[SimFox]

Not quite sure what you mean? A S3D for puzzle pieces and BATs are identical in the inside, they are not a different format.

And when adding a texture to a puzzle you do add it in the mats tab in the reader. But the UV coordinates can be done either in the reader or 3ds max.

Jonathan

Sorry but you are not right.
I took a look at the model and it is nothing like BAT.
Nothing like BAT exactly on the inside.

I'll try to formulate this in more detail a bit later. But the "verdict" would stay. The model you are referring to is radically different than BAT and I believe is controlled by different rules in game engine.

[jeronij]

Sorry but you are not right.
I took a look at the model and it is nothing like BAT.
Nothing like BAT exactly on the inside.

I'll try to formulate this in more detail a bit later. But the "verdict" would stay. The model you are referring to is radically different than BAT and I believe is controlled by different rules in game engine.

Puzzle piece models are True3D, they aren't isometric, and there is only one model for all rotations, and on several only one model for all zooms.

Jonathan

[Chrisim]

... the viewing angle (above horizon) is different for each zoom ...

Does somebody know the exact values of these angles?

[mightygoose]

Does somebody know the exact values of these angles?

simfox i'm sure will be able to tell you

[wouanagaine]

As I already said ( or was it in a PM ? ), being a S3D from BAT or S3D for puzzle piece ( called True3D ) are stored in S3D format. There is nothing format-wise different between both. This is just a collection of vertices, triangles, uvs, materials, textures etc... for both
And for your knowledge, the number of texture is stored as a 8bits number, ie you can have up to 255 ( 127 if it signed ) material in a S3D ( this is of course a purely theorical number )

Does somebody know the exact values of these angles?

I have them somewhere on PIMX source code,need to dig a bit

[RippleJet]

Does somebody know the exact values of these angles?

If I recall correctly (don't quote me on that):

• 30° - Zoom 1
• 35° - Zoom 2
• 40° - Zoom 3
• 45° - Zoom 4 & 5

Edit : Yes you're right ~Wouanagaine~

[SimFox]

I see you have already started to formulated it (the differences between BATs and Puzzle pieces - is that a right term for that model of roundabout?):

Puzzle piece models are True3D, they aren't isometric, and there is only one model for all rotations, and on several only one model for all zooms.

Jonathan

Basically right there you have the answer. But there is some term confusion going on there as well.

First of all model can not be isometric or non-isometric. It is a view, or camera (as a proxy of view) that could be isometric, and even then not quite isometric but orthographic.

Second. About true 3d... all models in game are true 3d. these puzzle pieces and LODs as well.

About being one model things here are a bit more complicated. In theory LODs could be dependent on zoom. EG higher Zoom Level Lods could be have more complex geometry. I remember even seeing somewhere the recommended face count. However in practice all (or at least LOD3,4 and 5) are same. LODs1 and 2 ... these are a bit of a mystery to me at this point. I may speculate that at that zoom levels a Bounding Box is used as a LOD, or may be solution similar to that plug-in for Max (don't remember it's name) but basically what it does it maps 2d images with Alpha on a planes which are aligned and link to camera in the MAX so that the boards are kept at the constant angle (usually perpendicular but not always) to the camera z axis (line of view).

This cleared let's look at what makes these models (Puzzles) and Bats radically different.

And the answer is the way they are textured - Puzzle pieces have only 1 group per actual model or like in the case of that round about only one texture per one segment. their link is fixed. Actually you can consider that Roundabout not to be a single model but a collection of such where each group is representing one individual indivisible piece and the 2 most important points of all
1. with a only one texture once and for all fixed to
2. with geometry same for all zooms (that is if you compare not to the entire model of BAT e.g. LOD, but rather to Slabs withing a BAT model)

What, on the other hand we have in case of BAT model?
First of all there is no "eternal link between any geometry and any one single texture. Depending on the zoom the geometry is cut in suitable slabs to fit texture size that being maximum of 256 pixel (as I said I believe this is a part of 3d engine)
Because of that entirely different "database" should be built (and that what it is actually is a mini database) one that allow for fluid, yet unique links to exist.
This create a need not for a multilayered, if you will referral system - eg special link for zoom level, special link for rotation and then for a particular slab. In a way you can compare a slab to your puzzle piece. each are uniquely identified with unique texture. but while puzzle piece is a permanent the slab is zoom and (!) view related - same model may be cut into different number of slabs (and hence require different number of textures in different view of the same zoom level.
As you see BAT models are far more complex (as a database) then puzzle pieces.
So, on the inside they are very different.

As i have already mentioned originally only one number had been reserved to link any slab withing a given zoom/rotation to a unique texture. But I guess at some point during the development process it become clear that this is insufficient and a workaround have been added.

Now, how exactly it has been implemented? did they just added "4" as a unique key allowing/recognised, or did they simply opened all the numbers greater than 3 at the 2 position from the end of Instance ID in succession allowing next tire (eg all together extra12 tires) may be debated. But I believe (based on the notes in the script) that this a former.

[RippleJet]

Now, how exactly it has been implemented? did they just added "4" as a unique key allowing/recognised, or did they simply opened all the numbers greater than 3 at the 2 position from the end of Instance ID in succession allowing next tire (eg all together extra12 tires) may be debated. But I believe (based on the notes in the script) that this a former.

Since that second digit (from the right) includes the rotation, you couldn't have more than 4 sets.
However, I think only two sets are available:

• 0 (south view), 1 (east view), 2 (north view), 3 (west view)
• 4 (south view), 5 (east view), 6 (north view), 7 (west view)

[SimFox]

Ripple, you can totally be quoted on the camera angles!

as for the second tire... stupid me... How I forgot that am actually preaching... 

Well I've decided to back to the "horse" and here is info directly from it's mouth:

fn TextureOutputIDStr texIndex:0 =
   (
      local highSwizzle = 0
      -- awful kludge to be able to handle more than 16 textures per view
      -- sharing the second digit between rot & the high bit of the texture index
      local digit2 = (texIndex as integer)/16
      texIndex = (mod texIndex 16) as integer
      if (digit2 > 3) then
      (
         DoMessage ("This building is huge! It's just not going to work!")
      )
      else
      (
         highSwizzle = digit2 * 4
      )
      
      return guidStr =  (ModelID())+((zoom-1) as string)+(bit.intAsHex (highSwizzle + (rot-1)))+(bit.intAsHex texIndex)
      )

So what does it tell us?
first of all that size of the bat is limited by the number of slabs/FSHs per each view. And that I was wrong about actual number. It is not 32 but 64. - meaning that the whole set of HEX numbers :

• 0 (south view), 1 (east view), 2 (north view), 3 (west view) - rotations
• 4 (south view), 5 (east view), 6 (north view), 7 (west view) - 2nd tire
• 8 (south view), 9 (east view), A (north view), B (west view) - 3rd tire
• C (south view), D (east view), E (north view), F (west view) - 4th tire

are available

[Orange_o_]

I have to experiment the HD method and I associated it with the reFiSHing.

The result is not blatant because I do not have chooses the model check , I would redo a try when I shall have a little more time with a more adapted model.

We can see slightly that with the reFiSHing outlines are more net.




I am sorry Simfox I did not understand everything your questions and your remarks, my English is limited

Orange

[buddybud]

here's a railing i did using shrinking. note the jagged edges are the game attempting to shrink the bigger texture i think or actually the resolution limit of my screen . It still better then the resolution i could get otherwise.

[mightygoose]

hey guys, here is a HD asphalt universal sidewalk replacement mod, very similar to the standard resolution one on the stex that loads of people use.  It may well need to go into a candidacy thread once more testing has been done but i invite you all to have a play with it...

(the texture is one of my creation)

[allan_kuan1992]

ah... debutterfly... have you heard of the Vista bugfix for SC4Tool and FiSHman? Or am i misreading the problem? xD

- Allan Kuan

[Jonathan]

What we call True3D is when you can rotate the model in any angle and it will still look correct, whereas the BATed models if you rotate them at any angle they will look different, because they are only boxes.

By isometric I mean the model only works in 'isometric'(or whatever view SC4 has) view, and same as above.

Actually you can consider that Roundabout not to be a single model but a collection of such where each group is representing one individual indivisible piece and the 2 most important points of all

It doesn't matter what it looks like to a human, to the game it is the same as a skyscraper that has been cut up.
In the reader, it calls each slab a group, each group can have it's own texture. A diced BAT is a BAT with more than one group. They are the same format as wouanagaine said (and I attempted to say)

or like in the case of that round about only one texture per one segment.

By segment, you mean what the reader calls a group?
In the S3D file it is only possible to have one texture per group.

What you are saying, is the limit of 64 slabs, is only because of the IID scheme of the Textures.
Not because there is some technical limitation in the S3D files or SC4.

In the NAM we don't follow the BAT IID scheme for textures, so then there is no limit.

Also to get more slabs, just break into another IID range, but then you'd have to add them manually in the reader.

Jonathan

[Gwail]

however a trick is to do a good job at a higher resolution first......then Shrink the file down and let the computer blend things a bit....The resulting detail is something you couldn't have drawn yourself. It's a photoshop trick for producing realism.....trust me it works.

Very good and often used method, of course. I can't figure it too, why Orange first shrinks files down and next enlarges it back (yes, less, but always). Downsampling at such dimensions degrades small details irretrievably, even best interpolation won't restore them. Why not downsample image once, using most suitable Adobe's bicubic resampling? You can obtain your "blending" without losing details.

The best solution for Orange's way would be to produce oversized model without compression (no cruel artifacts) and then let PSD make the rest, I think. I'm using similiar method trying to get new airport bidirectional lights (although I "refish" the whole dummy BAT with PSD file and next alter model file with Reader for transparency). It's good to know, that I'll be able to make experiments with HD textures !