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choco's attempts at BATing bridges

Started by choco, June 03, 2008, 09:18:33 AM

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choco

#20
just wanted to post a couple updates....
made some subtle changes to the model.....textures still aren't satisfactory....colors clash i think.


and a little teaser for something i cooked up this morning...


edit: back for more.....saw a request in another thread, and thought i'd give it a shot.  need to learn how to build a cable bridge anyway..

Toichus Maximus

oooooooooo! I'm really looking forward for how the cable bridge comes out, because my rail crossings at rivers always look so stretched out.

threestooges

If you intend a cable bridge like the Cable Stayed bridge in the game, then you will just need to model the cables and break the model into 16m long segments, give each its own ID and create a RUL explaining how to order the pieces.

If you want a suspension-type bridge, the process is similar, but you will need to add a file in the reader to add the vertical cables like the game adds for other suspension bridges.

Both methods are outside my area of knowledge, so if anyone knows hwo to do it, please post, but I do know those are areas you should look into if that is your goal. I like the model and it looks like it'll be a great GLR/El bridge.

nerdly_dood

I'd like to see a cable-stayed or suspension rail bridge.  Good work on all this!

My opinion on the road bridge above where you say the colors clash I think could be helped by just decreasing the contrast.  (The dark shadows within the detail on the side of the support specifically)
My days here are numbered. It's been great and I've had a lot of fun, but I've moved on to bigger and better things.
—   EGO  VOBIS  VADELICO   —
Glory be unto the modder and unto the fun and unto the city game!

Fresh Prince of SC4D

cable.... bridges.... for....... rail...roads....  This is a great day! For all Sc4 mod fans! :'(
Returning from Call of Duty . Must rebuilt what I destroyed....

choco

#25
oh happy day.....after fretting about a windows crash, i was able to recover all my lost data.  furthermore, i snaked the admin password on my laptop, and i was able to install the gimp....so now i at least have a tool to edit textures properly (MS paint just doesn't cut it).

TS: i was gonna ask you about the cable bridges as well.  i was checking out the garabit bridge, and it looks like to me that it may have been modeled as an overhanging prop.  more specifically, half of the arch on both sides of the pillar appears in a single s3d file, so does that mean the arch was modeled with the pillar (which would essentially mean the pillar was greater than 1 tile long)?  i wanted to explore this option to save on using so many ID's, but not sure about the viability.

im gonna be testing my first RUL soon, so once I get that ironed out I should be able to get some of these done.


Thanks for all the help and comments!  :thumbsup:

edit: fixed.....

edit again: i wanted to post a couple pics and possibly figure out what im doing wrong.  any insight would be great!
most importantly, here's my main texturing issue. 

the difference between the El-Rail texture and the bridge texture is very dramatic.  is this a limitation of the BAT, or am i just getting my pixel/meter ration wrong?  indeed, i have read thru the tutorials, as well as consulted an expert or 2.  i still can't seem to get it right...... :'(

anyway....got all but 1 into the game at least...

art128

I'll take a quiet life... A handshake of carbon monoxide.

Props & Texture Catalog

threestooges

Sorry to hear about your computer troubles, but I'm glad to hear nothing was lost. As far as the Garabit bridge goes, I'll need to look at it to figure out how it was set up, but I'll see what I can find out. The texture issue is likely just a result of the texture being applied and not necessarily a limitation of the BAT. One thing that might cause it is the resolution of the texture (stretch it too much and it will blur/pixelate), another might be the texture itself: if it is different from the one used for the model of the regular track then it will (naturally) look different. Also, just in case it's not set yet, make sure you export on the highest detail setting.

Also, I would suggest altering the start piece for that bridge to have the guardrails move toward the tracks (either gradually or at a 90 degree angle) to avoid those gaps that are there now.

I like the supports you've modelled for the monorail bridge, but something looks a bit off about the texture of the track, that may just be a result of the zoom level, but I thought I would mention it just in case.

Great work and I'll look into that Garrabit bridge thing.

cogeo

#28
Quote from: choco on September 02, 2008, 11:30:36 AM
edit again: i wanted to post a couple pics and possibly figure out what im doing wrong.  any insight would be great!
most importantly, here's my main texturing issue. 
the difference between the El-Rail texture and the bridge texture is very dramatic.  is this a limitation of the BAT, or am i just getting my pixel/meter ration wrong?  indeed, i have read thru the tutorials, as well as consulted an expert or 2.  i still can't seem to get it right...... :'(

Unfortunately this is a BAT limitation, with the output "resolution" being no higher than some 6 pixels per meter. Sorry threestooges, but there's no BAT bridge (with rails) looking any better. There is some sort of "workaround" for this, though very laborious:
- BAT your bridge without that rail texture (this step can be taken last. after you make sure that everything else works OK).
- Use a special flat model for networks, these are usually 16x16m large and 0.2m tall (NAM's ped mall tiles is an example). In the Reader change these models so that they use the el-rail straight texture (I mean the network texture, not a lot texture). As the network texture is displayed through a model as well, you won't get any differences, and the track on the bridge will look identical to the el-rail track.
- Now you need to display this. There are two ways, either make it a prop (you will need to use type-21 exemplars for all the bridge's pieces) or combine the model files (append the flat model mentioned above to the bridge's model); the 2nd way requires much more work, but technically is more "robust". Unfortunately, it has to be repeated any time you re-export your BAT, so it should be carried-out last, after your are done with BATting, texturing, etc, ie when the BAT models are finally "frozen" and they aren't about to change anymore.

Hope this helps.

choco

thanks for the quick replies!

TS: i will definitely be re-modeling the start piece for the El-Rail bridge....I was kinda experimenting with some ideas since im not quite sure how to end it.....with the ped bridge there and all. 

The monorail texture was included in the pack JRJ attached to the tutorial, but it does indeed look very different.  Now that im equipped with an image editor, i should be able to fix that.  It was a model i tossed together fairly quickly, so it still needs alot of work. 

Regarding the Garabit: its no a huge concern, but it would be nice to know.  instead of using a unique ID for every piece mid-span, it would allow us to make a single repeat piece and use only one ID.  which ever you prefer, with consideration to the availability of ID's.  I do thank you for lookin into it though!  :thumbsup:

cogeo: i was considering using that method as you suggested in another thread....but im not quite that advanced yet.  i filtered thru all your texturing suggestions to others and reviewed what you had already sent me, and found that i had everything pretty well done (i did forget about the blur setting... ::)).  so, i am not gonna fret if its the BAT.  thank you for your expertise my friend!   :satisfied:

cogeo

Forgot to mention, some of the NAM bridges are actually made this way.
So pick a NAM rail bridge (one with good-looking rails of course), go to the model (S3D) file in question, and try setting the groups' visibility on and off. You will see what I mean (the "track", is actually a different model, appended to the bridge's model).

threestooges

-cogeo: Thank you for the detailed reply. Would you happen to know of a link to a tutorial explaining the second method you mentioned? It's something that would be very useful to know (and use) for bridges and perhaps other models. Again, thanks for the advice.

nerdly_dood

Awesome! Now I can have more than one type of elevated rail/GLR bridge! (Not to mention a third type of street bridge and another monorail bridge)
My days here are numbered. It's been great and I've had a lot of fun, but I've moved on to bigger and better things.
—   EGO  VOBIS  VADELICO   —
Glory be unto the modder and unto the fun and unto the city game!

cogeo

#33
Threestooges, sorry I'm not aware of such a tutorial, but I don't think it's needed either, as the procedure is quite straightforward, and not hard to understand at all. All you need is to combine the two models, ie the bridge model with the track (or road) model:
- Locate those flat models and export them as S3D (or get those in the ped-mall tiles).
- Open the bridge model file, go to the model (S3D) you want and click "Add S3D" (select the flat S3D file here).
- Then go to the "Mats" tab, highlight the last (track/road) texture, right-click and select "Set Texture", and type-in (or paste) the instance ID of the ingame straight el-rail (or road) texture. Then click "Apply" otherwise changes are lost.
- Repeat the above two steps for all zooms/rotations. Instead, zoom levels 0-2 (those exported using LOD3) can be made by using a copy of the gmax file, this time containing the track/road texture (these don't look good anyway), but this requires two exports. I mean, you can choose to take these steps only for the two closest zooms, to reduce the work needed.

That is the whole thing is quite easy, just play with the reader at little and you will figure it out easily.

Tips:
- If you set the texture you will see the model rendered all-white in the preview. Before starting, you can take a copy of the original texture(s) in your model file, then save, close and reload. Now the texture in the preview will look OK, as soon as you set it. These (copied) textures should be deleted after you are done.
- Basically you need two of these flat model files, one for the even-numbered rotations, and one for the odd-numbered ones.
- Save often, as the reader can cause an acceess violation while editing models (in this case you will lose your unsaved work).

The problem with the above procedure is that it's too tedious. The reader's source code is publicly available, so I think it is possible for someone who knows (who indeed?) to write a "Combine Model" operation for the reader.

choco

hi all!  back for another update, cause i like pics. 

 

@threestooges: this will help illustrate what i mean with respect to the garabit.  if i render a model for each span piece starting with the pylon and work outward, i will need at minimum, 10 ID's, 11 if i use a starter piece.  otherwise, if I can get away with rendering the wires with the pylon, i can get it down to 6 IDs.  the RUL wouldn't be much different either way, but for loading times and ID availability, i would like to try to render the wires with the pylon. 

Toichus Maximus


art128

extremely excellent start on this bridge  &apls
I'll take a quiet life... A handshake of carbon monoxide.

Props & Texture Catalog

threestooges

Yes, I know what you mean about wanting to render the wires with the pillar piece. As far as I am aware, pieces are constrained to 16m in length. However, if you wouldn't mind doing a bit of testing, try rendering the pillar piece with the wires and all incorporated (make sure to use a somewhat customized LOD to avoid obscuring other pieces) and use the model ID of another bridge that you know works. It'll look funny, but all you would need to test is functionality and pathing.

From what I have seen (and can understand) in the NAM bridge RULs, it looks like it might be an option.

An excerpt from the Cantilevered Truss RUL:
Quote#CANTILEVER TRUSS

bridge 8

section s
   piece <0x0c071000, 2>
end

section r
   piece <0x0c051000, 2>
end

section mr
   piece <0x0c151000, 2>
end

section m1
   piece <0x0c101000, 2>
end

section m2
   piece <0x0c111000, 2>
end

section m3
   piece <0x0c121000, 2>
end

section m4
   piece <0x0c121000, 0>

A screenshot of fukuda's Millau Viaduct from the Reader:


The interesting thing is that the RUL for the first bridge seems to show separate models for each piece instead of having the full span (though I guess that could also account for the multiple varieties it creates) but from the looks of it, what you show might be possible with 3 pieces. So please, take a look into it if you don't mind and share your findings.

As far as the model itself goes, it looks great. I think this will make a fine addition to the selection of rail bridges (and perhaps el rail/glr if you're interested). I recommend making those short pillars much longer, similar to the main one. Aside from that, some textures will really add to it, otherwise, great work. Let me know if you have any other thoughts or questions on it. I don't have nearly as much time as I would like to work on this (and it's one of those things I'd really like to research more) but please let me know what you find.
-Matt

cogeo

#38
choco, just a note (and sorry if you are already aware of this).

Have you checked properties.xml? This is an XML file listing all (?) available properties in the SC4 exemplars. I think it's the most essential "guide to modding". It's used by the reader (to display help); so you can find it in your reader's installation. As far as I know the "last" (?) version of this is not included with the reader, but I remember it was posted on ST (Modds and Downloads). If you can't find it I could send it to you. This XML file comes together with a stylesheet (for formatting) so that you can view it in your browser.

Well, back into the bridges stuff, these cables may not even need to be modelled! Properties.xml (go to the "Bridge" section) contains a whole bunch of cable-stayed related properties, specifying among others the number, texture, and thickness of the cables. As these are listed together with all other bridge properties, the names are quite self-explanatory and there is a short description too, I think it would be quite easy to figure out how this works. Maybe suggesting a different way to make your project doesn't make you happy, but this may be the "correct" way to go.

Still, even if you stick with modelling these cables, why not make the whole cable set a single (overhanging) prop (using a simple LODshell)? This would be used only once, in the network lot (21) of the piece with the pylon.

No offense, just some ideas.

choco

TS: i think i can get it to work this way....this LOD wont work, but the game doesn't seem to have problems with the overhanging model.  i need to test if its functional, but i need to redo the LOD first.  in any event, i dont see the need to make separate models for each.  i'll report more as i learn....

cogeo: i know almost nothing about T21's, but i may give your ideas a try.  i was planning on making 4 cable stay bridges, and it may be much simpler in the long run to explore your suggestion.  lemme look into it....i cannot get onto the stex until i get home, so i'll have a look at the properties.xml file (of which i was not aware) later.

also, no animosity here with regards to your (or anyone elses) suggestions...in fact, it makes me feel a bit better.  i know i have alot to learn, and i cannot progress unless i have someone with experience guiding me through this.  i really do appreciate all your help, and the suggestions further help me improve the quality of my work.  beware though: i may have to ask for some help whilst learning the prop method.  but thats again for chiming in....

on to the pics....