SC4 Devotion Forum Archives

SC4D Collaborative Region Projects => The NORO Cooperative => Topic started by: noahclem on April 28, 2015, 11:28:12 AM

Poll
Question: Should default TIR and TOR textures be stone (like TOS) or asphalt (like the old versions)?
Option 1: Stone pavers votes: 45
Option 2: Asphalt votes: 83
Title: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: noahclem on April 28, 2015, 11:28:12 AM
NORO TRAMS & TEXTURES

I began this project in earnest around a year ago but it's an extension of a dream I've had for many years to which I've occasionally taken baby steps toward realizing. After a critical mass of ambition, time, and (relative) knowledge came together I began what this is now. From the beginning the project had a few goals:

I - Convert the light rail dual networking pieces to have sidewalks able to be altered by a mod with any sidewalk texture.
II - Change the gauge of light rail/tram to be equal to RRW/standard gauge.
III - Remove and (probably later) replace light rail curves with turning radii significantly below what occurs in any real life tram/light rail network.
IV - Adjust relevant networks' lane width to more closely approximate each other and RL networks of the same type.
V - Alter crosswalks to be more prominent, as is typical in the kind of built up urban areas that trams usually occur in, and to be more realistically aligned.
VI - Create a series of new tram stops incorporating the new textures, using HD stop models, and as realistic as possible in every way.
VII - Retexturing the SAM cobblestone network to match the new tram-on-street textures based on Vortext's original lot textures.

Closely related but not within the scope of this project:
VIII - Draggable and Flex implementation of the tram and light rail networks, bringing them up to modern standards along the lines of what's been done with RRW and RHW networks.

It relatively quickly became apparent how important step IV was--the most egregious offenders are Avenues, 3-tile NWM networks, and 4-lane-1-tile networks (including the 2 dual-networking ones of course), but also the difference in width between the 1-tile and 2-tile light rail dual networking networks. For someone who didn't want to cut any corners, requiring maximum effort for every texture in question, that meant all the aforementioned networks would need to be done and that each would require the others' new width spec to interact properly. I committed to doing them all, hoping to accommodate the contrary user preferences I could along the way.

Several standards have been established during the course of my work on this project:


A number of questions still remain as to how best to build things:


Please excuse my working name for this project--was the first thing that came to mind starting this topic which I think ought to be separated from the main public NORO thread :D

I wrapped up the Tram-in-Road roundabout revamp, other than perfecting the overhanging parts of the tram-in-road and tram-on-road connections (know what to do now but taking a quick break). The break has been creating the ortho versions of all the NWM networks besides OWR1 and visiting the possibilities of TuLEPs under the texture specs I've been using. Super-important and super-easy and of course subject to change.

Almost the first thing to check was where the limit is. The lane width's of the existing TuLEPs were among the widest of anything in SC4 to achieve the desired look I assume, which means the difference compared to the standard I've roughly adopted is huge. I like slip lanes but they often have merging lanes when I encounter them in RL and aligning them with MIS would potentially be very useful to people playing SC4. Here's the prototype result of all that:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FY0JuDNM.png&hash=12e30c8afb6a57030b23bcfceee67e5498f45818)


Nothing too special, but the realigned slip lane. I made it quite a bit wider than 32/64px to accommodate buses and trucks making that relatively tight turn:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fc6RPJHD.png&hash=b6536c42bf53ad48017693de50dbe6454899cbb6)


And the more basic TuLEP, including some new grass from Vortext, with everything in model-coloration due to the nature of TuLEP puzzle pieces I corrected coloration that was already corrected. Will fix soon and remove notice:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fr3Kyaia.png&hash=cd786680aa1edfb656b9009a93f1812660977f27)


An ~32px lane alignment makes lots of things possible while keeping the geometry of intersections simple. And again the difference is more due to where lanes were widened from standard in the past than to the small and realistic reduction in width it is. As with anything in SC4 there's a lot of perspectives one could look at these from: mainly pedestrian automata or everything else, but that's a simplification of course. The difference in the geometry of these intersections might bother some people because they're so different but it's in my judgement the best way to go forward and will be very widely adopted in time.

Implementation of lots of options with TuLEPs is also a source of confusion and disagreement. In the case of RHW a large amount of cosmetic pieces were made to the basic puzzle piece standard while the same happened with TuLEPs but was held back for fear of making things too complicated for NAM users. These intersection variables get very complicated very quickly but I'm hoping we can find a way to add some new options soon after the pause since last time :)
Title: Re: NORAMO Trams and Textures
Post by: Gugu3 on April 30, 2015, 01:27:10 AM
Great to see you in action with more new textures!looking forward to seeing more &apls
Title: Re: NORAMO Trams and Textures
Post by: Vlasky on April 30, 2015, 06:04:04 PM
This does look nice Noah! I appreciate your attention to detail.
Title: Re: NORAMO Trams and Textures
Post by: noahclem on May 03, 2015, 02:52:13 PM
Thanks guys  :)   

Action continues here in the poorly-portmanteaued NAM-NORO street project  ::)  I've been in Helsinki for Vappu or Labour Day, and have been paying close attention to how the details and uncommonly-seen aspects of trams, crosswalks, bikepaths, etc work which has been fun. Have gotten a lot of ideas that I'm looking forward to introducing :)

As I progressed with the TuLEPs project I ran into the issue of space for crosswalks with the networks that take up most of their tile. Here's a possible overhanging solution to the T intersections of road and avenue:

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F4olisnX.png&hash=1490f59d1acbf071680f5ae97e428696d687ea25)


A peak at the current built in-game:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FElpJ2rQ.jpg&hash=66a5bb0dece1beafb2a3ff893ad49495bc820713)


And some optional textures for replacing the dividing line with medians--these and Euro textures will be available:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FdHRRCfg.png&hash=13a1f019f0ab35e1372bf542145a16db79db1a74)
Title: Re: NORAMO Trams and Textures
Post by: kelis on May 04, 2015, 02:14:04 AM
This set is going to change the game, again...SC4 is still alive !! Thanks for this work and textures, I can't wait for them.
Title: Re: NORAMO Trams and Textures
Post by: Gugu3 on May 04, 2015, 02:12:20 PM
Great stuff &apls &apls &apls
Title: Re: NORAMO Trams and Textures
Post by: noahclem on May 11, 2015, 05:28:30 PM
Haven't been too active with this lately but have been getting a little done here and there. Decided today to work on the avenue wide-radius curves and I've got the two basic curves done, including the sidewalk and wealth/grass on the FLEX 45 degree curve, done to be compatible with mgb204's automated grass sidewalk texturing (http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=16938.0). I probably won't be using the not-yet-available program for changing the colors into actual grass etc but having the areas laid out like that makes it easy enough to do the same in GIMP.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FZSE5Fhx.png&hash=2b750a16d069e1d7e0a44f9146fbade2d098c29b)


Am wondering if I should try to remove a couple tiles from the puzzle pieces, as marked here in green:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FQShui8n.png&hash=a7484b22b03b78302013b2593365e8b23a61a6c3)


Suppose it makes sense to do variations of the conventional puzzle piece curves or switch to an S3D-based sidewalk system like the other puzzle piece networks I've been working on
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FV8hoPAU.png&hash=33d268e303bafd3c70e0ea2f7e6867ba39cc680a)


And as a bonus, basic FA:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FRl3ZUPO.png&hash=e009673ae595a7777bc890359bd63fb75854b374)
Title: Re: NORAMO Trams and Textures
Post by: Themistokles on May 11, 2015, 11:00:00 PM
Christmas in the middle of May! What has the world come to? ;D To me, it seems like a good idea to remove those green tiles -- if anyone would like them, I think they could just plop some filler instead.
Title: Re: NORAMO Trams and Textures
Post by: mgb204 on May 12, 2015, 03:38:13 AM
Glad to see that Ron's work and mine is something that is considered useful. If it helps I can help you whip up some scripts and make a suitable repository. I've been using various updates of GoFSH over the last few months and not yet run into anything bad, Ron's also really on it with updates if you spot a problem :).

I'd be the last person to try and talk you out of converting puzzle pieces to be sidewalk-adaptable, but if suitable tools exist for users to easily change them, it could save you a lot of work just by having the Definition Alphas available, maybe included with the download, ready to run with the DAT packed textures as it were. Ultimately the same results are possible albeit with a little user effort I personally feel that's an acceptable compromise.

Great work with the textures, I'm really looking forward to using this set in future.

Title: Re: NORAMO Trams and Textures
Post by: noahclem on May 12, 2015, 05:54:01 PM
Quote from: Themistokles on May 11, 2015, 11:00:00 PM
Christmas in the middle of May! What has the world come to? ;D To me, it seems like a good idea to remove those green tiles -- if anyone would like them, I think they could just plop some filler instead.

Thanks a lot man! I agree with you and I think that should be the end goal for this. After talking with memo, the guy who created the flex version of the 45 degree curve, I think that sticking with the same footprint of that puzzle piece, from which those extra tiles can be bulldozed, is probably the best plan. Since the pedestrian paths won't work if those extra tiles are bulldozed I'm pondering the idea of adding a second pedestrian path that skips the extra tiles so that piece will still have full functionality after the extra tiles are deleted. There's not a whole lot of use for the original 45 degree curve now that the flex version exists so it'd probably be more helpful for me to spend my time somewhere else on this project. So I guess my plan is to achieve what we both suggested but do it by barely changing anything :D

Quote from: mgb204 on May 12, 2015, 03:38:13 AM
Glad to see that Ron's work and mine is something that is considered useful. If it helps I can help you whip up some scripts and make a suitable repository. I've been using various updates of GoFSH over the last few months and not yet run into anything bad, Ron's also really on it with updates if you spot a problem :).

I'd be the last person to try and talk you out of converting puzzle pieces to be sidewalk-adaptable, but if suitable tools exist for users to easily change them, it could save you a lot of work just by having the Definition Alphas available, maybe included with the download, ready to run with the DAT packed textures as it were. Ultimately the same results are possible albeit with a little user effort I personally feel that's an acceptable compromise.

Great work with the textures, I'm really looking forward to using this set in future.

Thanks a lot Robin, it's great to have your input here and I'm really excited if you plan to use my textures :)  The sidewalk-adaptable part of this project seems to be very easy as Markus (memo) has a script that generates the S3Ds that display the sidewalks and that will fill whatever I leave transparent. There is a small disadvantage to that though, which is that my semi-transparent system of dealing with curbstones doesn't appear correctly with the S3D sidewalks. Much more importantly there's the issue of varying grass textures, since I want to make textures using the grass I like the most but many users will want to stick with what they're used to. I really want the textures I'm making to be as compatible as possible, especially since the changes in width add an inherent incompatible element. If I adopt you guys' system for coloring areas designated for grass and sidewalks it should help my work adapt to the future better and I can feel like if I do my best now it'll stand the test of time, which is exactly what I'm after. So, long story short, my plan going forward is to adopt your system for whatever I export to .png and since I've switched from SV grass to Vortext's new grass I plan to revisit my previously made textures when time permits and give them the same treatment. To get everything to go smoothly I'll need a bit of advice from you guys and I need to say how grateful I am to both of you for arranging this system :)


(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Ff64ftxG.png&hash=56ec0fde949da34ccc4613da6fd587967d896192)


(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FUQBvSHr.png&hash=8c08509e5debccaeb32910d34c3bbda2bc3414d3)


(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FK9Ph8cL.png&hash=969d64e2eb3ba42a68f5fdd16f23d1ebf6d92cc9)


(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FnyGOOMy.png&hash=7347fd7018a7b6ea4390fff8fbadd00b955a15d6)


(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F2k5NOcI.png&hash=c1c033812e14860d871b9beb99861dd9a57180b0)


(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FkcwlukC.png&hash=7a614e3fb230831810144fb57266ac4871e64804)

The new textures don't give any reason to change the footprint of the 90 degree textures but unfortunately adding sidewalks that maintain their regular dimension but bent causes overhang. You can see that difference between the last two tiles. My solution here for the short to medium term is probably going to be leaving all the paths and footprints the same but changing the avenue textures and adding S3D sidewalks.


After getting some advice from memo and eggman on the private NAM boards, in combination with older advice and all the looking through files I've been doing with this project, I think the process of making puzzle pieces has finally clicked in my head--super-exciting as that's been an ambition of mine since I downloaded the NAM and a slightly more realistic ambition since I got involved on the forums here. The piece I decided to cut my teeth on was this of all things, whose texture I just completed:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FGg3Z6HQ.png&hash=8cab86ba5ccac51b804f0a8fb4b08a2a53318a62)

I've really wished I had NWM-to-RHW connections (besides OWR3-to-RHW6S) a number of times and the network widening as it transitions from motorway to unlimited access only makes sense if the route is to maintain a similar capacity (before even taking turning lanes into account). Since this is a 1-tile-network-to-2-tile-network transition I didn't think draggable would be a great option so why not do a puzzle piece? Wish me luck moving forward with it--it's already proven how easily I can be distracted from getting the avenue wide-radius-curves into the game :D
Title: Re: NORAMO Trams and Textures
Post by: Gugu3 on May 13, 2015, 02:42:12 AM
Looks really promising Noah!great to see you in action &apls &apls
Title: Re: NORAMO Trams and Textures
Post by: noahclem on May 13, 2015, 06:18:24 PM
Was hoping to get that transition turned into a puzzle piece today, and was pretty excited about it, but wasn't able to finish as the puzzle piece tutorial requires web apps that are not longer available. Textures, S3D models, and paths are all done so that's at least a start  ::)  While waiting for a bit of guidance on that I drew up a handful of other puzzle piece textures I'd be interested in creating.

A version of the first transition but to OWR5 instead of OWR4:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FLwXANc2.png&hash=4df45e51138657ba62966bd7ddd50e7a33e26fe7)


Ortho-RHW6S-to-FA3-RHW6C:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FwNEHSks.png&hash=77b7357dbd4a99cc9150dbcadc47b50c8bdc0136)
The puzzle piece should be 3x3 tiles, minus the tile at bottom left, not including several overhanging textures


8C Version:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FYBWNMvy.png&hash=baaaec0a5d003201e29dc8e77d17c743fdfacadc)


FA3 8C-FA3 6C transition:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fwvv5CC3.png&hash=93a2976deedf63a4990d05030b74543be90aa319)


Opposite:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FPOuJprN.png&hash=ca99841300db88ae1f83fa1d8bb0a113b1810993)


FA3 4-FA3 6S transition:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F0dFs8wg.png&hash=9f225ee8778791c63ad74055a26cfeeb789d52a3)
I've been toying around with a texture mod widening the inner shoulders of RHWs wider than RHW4 which is why it looks that way. Haven't figured out how such a mod could work well though, at least for people like me using ramps with merging lanes (D, E, and F types).


These are all things that don't seem to be good candidates for FLEXing, draggable setups, or other more complicated implementations and should be relatively straight-forward to turn into static puzzle pieces (once I figure out the last couple steps to doing so :D ). I think it's too late to add them to the current NAM being developed but I'm hoping the NAM after the coming one will follow pretty quickly (that NAM is also where I hope to release the extra tram network functionality I'm planning).
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: noahclem on May 18, 2015, 02:01:21 PM
Made more progress on the puzzle piece but then someone was kind enough to do it for me, not realizing that the main point of me trying was to finally learn how to do it myself, and after that I lost interest. Will revisit that later on hopefully.

After moving on from that project I returned to several other unfinished items. One was avenues, rather at the core of this project. I finally took the WRC textures and put them in game and revisited a number of other textures, converting to Vortext's grass, creating versions color-coded for MGB and rivit's grass replacement program, and adding OWR versions.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F68cmZlw.jpg&hash=e94c5ce5a7fab9961c2e10582920157a5fa7e2e8)

I also finished the last of the TuLEP textures and then tried to add sidewalks where they were missing. That worked at first but then ended up with a number of errors where the textures for areas that share the same texture, such as 4-way-AVENUExROAD, would have only the original appear correctly and the repeated ones show as red, blue, green, black squares. At least I'm learning, but obviously I have a lot to learn still about how S3Ds work. I also did most of a set of FLUPs preparing them for a version with sidewalks though the sidewalks have yet to be made. I got a weird error though where instead of the terrain showing where the textures are transparent I would get black or white:

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F62EFx0L.jpg&hash=27b2c972179cc95914b57fbe2f7d3a8040756748)

I tried messing with the background color in GIMP but couldn't get it sorted. Something wrong with my settings exporting from GIMP or converting to FSH using BatchPngtoFsh?

I also did a little work with TiAs, NWM, and crosswalks in general. Several sub-projects are now either done or very close to done, which is pretty exciting. Total number of textures, including all wealth levels for the texture-based networks but not including all zoom levels, is now close to 1000  ::)
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: emanuelfranco0390 on May 18, 2015, 08:49:04 PM
Can't wait.

Amazing.

Wonderful job.

&apls
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: Gugu3 on May 19, 2015, 01:23:29 AM
Amazing stuff Noah! &apls &apls
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: Themistokles on May 19, 2015, 05:52:33 AM
Wonderful, absolutely wonderful! That sweeping look of the avenue curve, what can I say -- what cords does it not strike in a SC-devoted heart?

Being a pedant $%Grinno$% though, am I wrong to notice that the grass on the tiles north and south of the intersection (where the diagonal stoplights sit) is just a wee bit lighter than the other grass?

Edit: Strike-struck-struck; those English irregular verbs are a menace!
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: memo on May 19, 2015, 06:45:53 AM
Regarding the transparency issue, make sure that the "alpha test" flag is enabled for that particular texture, under the mats tab of the S3D file in the Reader.
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: noahclem on May 26, 2015, 12:56:32 PM
Thanks Markus, that did the trick!

Themistokles, thanks so much for the kind words! You might be surprised at how motivating they are. Good eye on the grass, it seems like I've had trouble keeping track of earlier and later versions of the grass as well as color adjustment for models v. textures. It's quite easy to change though, and if there's anything I haven't already corrected it should get caught well before release ;)

Thanks a lot Guglielmo and emanuelfranco0930!

The project keeps moving forward thanks to the extra time I have now that it's the off season and that my wife is out of town this week, but it keeps getting held up by time-consuming mistakes and varying levels of cloudiness due to worsening back pain and associated meds. But anyway, here's where we're at:

An "RRW" bridge, though I'm looking for a non-acronym name as there's enough of those around to be confusing enough as it is:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FVWG1LZW.jpg&hash=e4d3171b838f16805226f6d56d11c5491b35d6c5)

I also made textures for el-rail based off of Chicago's L but haven't gotten them to work yet:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.chicago-l.org%2Foperations%2Flines%2Fimages%2FKenwood%2FROW%40Michigan02.jpg&hash=ec87472e3d5c94ede02d423f94ee9acd429e6acc)


The puzzle piece GLRs are nearly finished:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FEjkPM5k.jpg&hash=544ef6854782b0542f167b7bd3d80058d1d3c78a)


As are the FLUP textures (not models), though they're missing sidewalks:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FTiyDlrS.jpg&hash=7e0157e8b59a9e4676652177e979dd177c61bf25)


Bonus pic, illustrating my geometry for AVE and RD6 with the old transition piece for reference:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FPlwRp0w.jpg&hash=1d96dde8cf9c6b3cf5ccdebfb337d876e3d96bb3)


This should be all the dat files in their current state (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0By6RG2miktERdTdsTE8wajJvRWc&authuser=0). They're very far from finished and so are probably not that useful, but you're all more than welcome to use them if you like. I'm really hoping someone can help me figure out why several of the TuLEPs aren't working in the closest ~3 zooms, why my L-rail texture isn't working (in the GLR puzzle piece dat), and why the Avenue ortho-FAR curve isn't working.

Thanks for your support :)


EDIT: Does anyone know where basic puzzle piece orthogonal and diagonal GLR pieces are?
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: mgb204 on May 26, 2015, 02:44:51 PM
Away from home for the moment, but I can answer all these quesitons I suspect, having worked on the pieces you are having problems with. Off the top of my head the GLR base textures can be found in the NAM Core files DAT, I can give you the ID's when I'm back.

:edit: - by core files I mean NAM_BaseContent.dat. GLR is 5f88000E and Rural GLR is 5F88400E, the diag pieces end in 60E instead. I'll report back if I can work out any of your other problems.
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: MandelSoft on May 27, 2015, 02:03:46 AM
This is looking great! one question, though: how easy is it to create Euro Textures for these?
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: noahclem on May 27, 2015, 11:34:14 AM
Quote from: mgb204 on May 26, 2015, 02:44:51 PM
Away from home for the moment, but I can answer all these quesitons I suspect, having worked on the pieces you are having problems with. Off the top of my head the GLR base textures can be found in the NAM Core files DAT, I can give you the ID's when I'm back.

:edit: - by core files I mean NAM_BaseContent.dat. GLR is 5f88000E and Rural GLR is 5F88400E, the diag pieces end in 60E instead. I'll report back if I can work out any of your other problems.

Thanks Robin! I've modified the appropriate textures now and it works great--although for some reason I couldn't find the associated S3Ds which I'd need to use to add sidewalks (though trying to do that myself, manually, has had mixed results). I also found a bunch of other stuff there for avenues that I've been looking for so it was quite the useful discovery. Will try to get back to your email shortly :)

Quote from: MandelSoft on May 27, 2015, 02:03:46 AM
This is looking great! one question, though: how easy is it to create Euro Textures for these?

Thanks Marten! Adding Euro textures will be very easy as my plans have always held that as very high priority. I'm not re-doing roads, avenues and my avenue tuleps don't have center lines, all normal-ish intersections don't include center-line textures, and in many or most cases I've already included Euro textures in the GIMP files, so all that helps a lot. The only difficult thing is the shear number of textures.


Today I've been playing around with the rural GLR textures some more. After a good bit of tweaking I've ended up with something I'm fairly happy with but I think I'm probably just going to use a modified RRW texture instead of my own from-scratch ones. Besides being 128px I don't have anything I'd like to change about the RRW ones, I'd prefer the rural GLR match the RRW pretty closely, and redoing RRW textures to match mine doesn't make any sense to me at this time. But anyway, here's the best I came up with:

Z6:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FohFoGof.jpg&hash=8b9a16ce6e682bd2b175868300f53637bba28f07)


Z5:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F7Up4i18.jpg&hash=c6dec827ebd7e39716e16c8d5162ea4cf14f5f9c)


Z4:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F2MRL7XX.jpg&hash=9d794e2cbacd277eb2215472c35ce4c79c89695f)



Z3:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FjShyyHF.jpg&hash=a35dcffc4e60d0911d3a3a2f80eef119f846c100)



And here's an earlier variant including transition to bridge textures:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FXaXcOQw.jpg&hash=f0d8eeff458183e3556dc8fd08b58a12445d967d)


Note these pictures include revised bridge textures as well (also you can click most pics for full size ;) )

EDIT: also don't forget to vote in the poll--including if you don't think this project is for you :)
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: Simcoug on May 27, 2015, 12:50:03 PM
Awesome!  I love that the rural GLR will mesh with the RRW texture - that will really tie things together nicely!


Thanks! Those two networks looking arbitrarily different when they tend to look very similar in RL has always annoyed me--I'm excited to be working on a solution to that finally :)

-Noah
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: APSMS on May 27, 2015, 01:43:56 PM
I also like that the textures correlate; having a distinction between the two isn't necessary for me, but I always figured that they would not look the same because of the frequency of light-rail traffic compared to heavy rail.

In the cities in California, you may get shiny railheads because of the frequency of trains, roughly 10-12 daily (freight and passenger combined).

But light rail trains run by every 15-30 minutes, in both directions. That's anywhere between 30 and 60 trains per day. So a difference in rail color I think isn't entirely unwarranted, and the textures you've procured match up nicely (and make it easy to modify the tracks without resorting to the query tool). I'm not sure how difficult it is to make the result of the textures, but my impression was that the custom GLR tracks, including the rural version, was generated using model-based curves, which meant that only one texture needed to be replaced to give the entire system a makeover. Are you changing the implementation or the curves so that a different approach is necessary?

A slight downside I noticed is that your rails are less distinguishable at lower zoom levels (further away), but I still appreciate the concrete ties and slight color variation that indicates different track, without being so glaringly obvious like it currently is.


Thanks for sharing your ideas! I haven't actually thought much about rail color with regard to traffic frequency but it must be a factor. My thoughts have been that for the rail to appear really bright you would almost have to be looking at it in a way that it reflected sunlight at you and to appear white as in the original tram textures wouldn't be realistically possible. Varying the brightness of rails between heavy and light could be an interesting way to differentiate them but I'm concerned it could quickly make them not appear to mesh well if I went down that direction. The fortunate thin, with regard to exploring wear/shininess variation is that there are more light rail sets than SAMs if you count all the puzzle-piece, draggable, and ped mall versions, so it's a fertile area for adding neat variations, and also even the fullest sets of them are pretty small so texture mods would be comparatively straight forward. I don't want to get too bogged down now but there's a lot of neat directions one could take things in this area.

GLR pieces are both model- and texture-based but no "morph" model curves are used so editing a single texture won't change whole sets, unfortunately. But, as mentioned above, the small size of the sets does provide nice opportunities for experimentation.

-Noah
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: Gugu3 on May 28, 2015, 01:50:21 AM
I like the RRW-like texture!Thinking about the overground tracks of the london underground...
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftomcurtisrailgallery.weebly.com%2Fuploads%2F6%2F9%2F0%2F3%2F6903499%2Fug3546378217willesdenjunction230213.jpg&hash=b6f93805ffe41c7966811baa51e6cc54e97e1fa1)


That's exactly the type of situation I'd love to see us be able to recreate! Isii94 even made prototype 4th rail texture versions which would be nice to have some time. Thanks!

-Noah
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: art128 on May 28, 2015, 02:28:14 AM
Looking great, Noah. Love the rural GLR texture.


Thanks, Arthur!
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: mgb204 on May 28, 2015, 04:23:44 AM
Nothing but praise for your efforts, I've had a play with the current textures installed and you are certainly making great progress on what is after all a very large amount of work. I keep thinking how you are making my efforts on the Sidewalk/Grass automation repository redundant by updating the pieces to include sidewalk layers :P, but I can't argue with the style and quality of your textures, so I'll get over it ;).

The Rural GLR texture is a good compromise, like the picture above from Gugu3, I see light rail as something that often does mingle with regular rail lines, especially at stations. Then again a network like Frankfurt really is a dedicated tram network, for cases like this more rail-like lines might seem out of place, but since I prefer to build more like the London system in my cities, I wouldn't hesitate to install these textures. If the HSR overhaul with RRW-style textures works out, we could intermingle the three networks and make them look good together, right now differences between the track textures are quite undesirable for this purpose and are not typical of how similar rail tracks are in the real world - tracks on the left with gantries in Gugu3's picture are almost certainly a High Speed line with Rail/GLR mingling at the station on the right, which is just how I'd like these networks to work too.


Pictures please! :P  Seriously though, I appreciate you trying out the mod and am really happy to hear you liked it. Obviously some of the stuff our projects are doing overlaps functionality but they do a lot of unique stuff too. I'm really excited about your ability to change grass textures, which has never before been a feasible project, and my style of sidewalks seems to fall slightly short of yours when it comes to details like translucency. I'd really like to get my textures to work within the systems you've been developing for wealth and sidewalks but also for having standardization through a repository. In our work towards more or less the same goal we have a lot of potential to create something better than either of us were thinking of when we started out (I hope) ;)

As I mentioned above, I think these light rail textures make it easy to do variations, and it might even be possible to have significant sets of London and Frankfurt style lightrail/tram/etc at the same time--but besides that the small size of the sets makes it pretty easy to make different texture mods of them that people could install. HSR is also conveniently simple for the moment and I've been itching to mess around with that (lots of possible interesting variations but not something I should distract myself with for now). In any case, I'd definitely like for all these rail networks to fit a bit better with each other.

-Noah
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: noahclem on May 29, 2015, 03:01:58 PM
Thanks a ton guys! I was actually planning to use a more RRW-similar texture for the rural light rails then the one I showed--128px and designed to look much more similar to the RRW textures--but after the feedback here and thinking about it more I'm leaning towards going with one based on that shown. Isii94 had actually done significant work and planning for a light rail revamp designed to dovetail with the tram work here and any work I do in that area while she's away will be based on the very promising planning and effort she made (and hopefully will pick up again ;) ).


I got a bit attached to my textures, against my better judgement (there will be no rejigging of other rail network textures until higher priority items are finished), and made some tweaks to the previous one:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FQBISbFD.jpg&hash=db35eb73d599e7e3c0f2b1b017abc13adb350c7c)


3rd rail version of Willy's textures but I think it gives a pretty good idea of what the 2 rail version would look like:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FjT4lXCL.jpg&hash=c4386b96141ac414e906bd83ef4403a18956fe10)


Some basic orthogonal textures:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FXw6Fkr9.png&hash=ba66dc164ee790a395833e98861aa05f31a91c7d)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FUXrjl2n.png&hash=30a08130ace89006b5dd55049a5399d11c92ded7)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FMpn18Wj.png&hash=c255768406a74639105933ef4dfb199bc5e9963f)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F1im2Tbk.png&hash=1e39b70b90d6bcd5e8030ed7cc5d82d54860dcc5)


And here's some layered GIMP files if anyone would be interested in trying their hand at a more optimal rail look:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0By6RG2miktERVWRVdE05bHBQQVE&authuser=0 (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0By6RG2miktERVWRVdE05bHBQQVE&authuser=0)

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0By6RG2miktERTFI4c1dubnhTelU&authuser=0 (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0By6RG2miktERTFI4c1dubnhTelU&authuser=0)

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0By6RG2miktERMjBoUzhTRy1Eamc&authuser=0 (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0By6RG2miktERMjBoUzhTRy1Eamc&authuser=0)

(feel free to use these however you like ;) )
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: noahclem on June 08, 2015, 02:09:50 PM
I'm super-busy with work at the moment, to the point where I'm not actively doing any SC4 stuff, but before I was overwhelmed I was working pretty hard on reworking the draggable rural GLR. The whole thing was uniquely difficult and exciting as the difference between HD and SD is huge when dealing with individual rails and ties. Worth at least a progress pic I suppose ;)

click

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F3ZpoNXh.jpg&hash=6b2603b0dd74d0d9145059425ccb11ce9556ad4e)


I hope to go more into the various exciting things, etc, before too long, and of course to start working on them again. The draggables have a decent amount of diagonal capability so I'll have to tackle that and the crossings but it's still a really small set. Just a ton of work per texture, at least at this time.
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: Themistokles on June 09, 2015, 10:50:45 AM
This is really coming about nicely! Am looking forward to the less busy times ::) but the quality of these textures no doubt makes them worth the wait.  &apls
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: noahclem on June 09, 2015, 12:48:07 PM
Thanks Themistokles! I'm assuming less busy times are on the way but it increasingly looks like the current streak won't get almost any break until after the mid-summer holidays the weekend after next. Then I'll have it pretty easy but will be swinging between the last month of my relatively slack work and a series of three vacations with all that changing to moving to a new town temporarily for my wife's psychology internship and being unemployed for the duration of that. Obviously that will allow plenty of time (though I have a number of things to keep me busy then) but I hope I'll make substantial progress before then too. Anyway, your comment and interest made me decide to post the rest of what I'd been up to:



(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FbzTUYcR.png&hash=c4066bb0785bfd4c3fc35d90a19a4e359f0b321f)


(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F0d1i9jI.png&hash=e82e3c13fc3c8fa49e4992ab82ab25a0378c3c5d)


Older textures including the distortion of the ballast resulting from the former technique of simply rotating the whole texture 45 degrees (and then aligning it perfectly with the neighboring diagonal textures, and adjusting the frequency of sleepers to make the spacing of them even in diagonals:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FenKaSmz.png&hash=5086c93650343908f019114bf42de1cc5cadc9d8)
Note also previous problems with shading in places


(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FJIf4JyT.png&hash=e5b9287adba8ad6218cd5e4b27594e0aba0153e1)


Some current versions:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F5FEJ9yV.png&hash=72fbd71253fdd59e78ad6ab438b0b765e1426dc6)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FZdgJ5iC.png&hash=f30dab8f4602323461290e561d5f64d8aeab155a)

Besides  blue the current versions include:
-"Bending" the shading and layer masks instead of the whole orthogonal texture
-Curves that are equal turning radii for inside and outside tracks, allowing extra space between tracks in turns
-Realistic (according to my best research thus far) track switch layouts
-Sleepers placed evenly and aligned as would be seen in a real situation
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FPVOAJ16.png&hash=e9ce9b720f7eb26300293dfa6dcc37d5715e61cf)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FgZpEkRL.png&hash=c0149fc78d6186d06fe04858b0371cb728d5a17f)


I believe this problem with the shading has already been fixed but it's much more obvious with a solid-colored background rather than what would be found in game:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FNg0okj4.png&hash=308a0f422258e74630ff4d58db2bdce81f592195)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FGOVZ3HS.png&hash=86c6dbc4d8c7d8b1535e866fee19fc3818dd3aeb)


All together with some other parts of the project (minus UDI this time ;) ):
click
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FvRpuMwm.jpg&hash=701d4bbfb23403fee9c9a7913bd71638b326ae3e)


Until next time  ;D :thumbsup: :troutslap: :squirrel:
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: Gugu3 on June 10, 2015, 09:29:04 AM
Noah amazing job!The textures are amazing!love the 3rd rail one!really looks like the London underground
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: art128 on June 10, 2015, 09:35:37 AM
Great textures indeed, Noah. :)
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: vester on June 10, 2015, 09:52:41 AM
I will have to agree. Amazing textures.
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: noahclem on August 17, 2015, 03:54:03 PM
It's been a long time! Summer's been quite hectic between traveling, moving, and working but I've had a little extra time the last couple days and tried making a couple textures. I was quickly reminded both of much of a pain these detailed rails are and how much more of the set remains to be done. Happy to have a couple done though ;)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FK9DO4j6.jpg&hash=a574fb7dba3ceea1784c0fed2f209ac453023c16)


(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FOORAXrZ.png&hash=cfa2433c2239fa63cc8a04e5c0bff908e743c293)


(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FaZvbyKR.png&hash=3a41d042f11ea0201b1a99d79c4cd690e3d92086)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FLaVBgMw.png&hash=316b5d955be04c4709e9d76a0afd8682a59f8967)


Hope to get back to regular development again soon but have more travel on the horizon. Wish me luck :)
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: eggman121 on August 17, 2015, 05:05:45 PM
I have not seen this thread in a while and I am amazed at the new tracks that you have made for the RRW and the Light Rail system. I especially like the modification you have made to the overtruss Bridge  :o

So with the flex track in the works I can't but help wonder if you would like a copy of my repository of textures that I have made for the RRW? They are still in the works but mainly complete. Just have to get the RUL 2 right.

Leading on from that I have had long term plans to revitalize the Light Rail network to a suburban transit network. Just pulling thought out of my head. I guess everyone has a different way of using the light rail network and I would like to explore the possibility of adding additional functionality that would satisfy many members wishes. The light rail network could be two things, a metro network, or a tram/ light rail network.

I am keen to see what thoughts you take from this  ;)

-eggman121
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: mgb204 on August 18, 2015, 10:38:23 AM
Great to see you are still plugging away at this project, some great details with the track switches too  :).
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: manga rivotra on August 18, 2015, 11:14:47 AM
I can't imagine better texture, the level of detail and the precision of the crossings are absolutely incredible !  &apls &apls &apls
I am impatient to redo and develop all my tramway network with your textures. Thanks you  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: vortext on August 18, 2015, 11:15:56 AM
Awesome detailling indeed, great work!!  &apls
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: Vizoria on August 18, 2015, 12:32:43 PM
Nice track textures, for some reason the tracks have some kind of 3-dimensional depth to them, although it could be a trick of the eye.
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: noahclem on August 19, 2015, 04:47:33 AM
Thanks for all the support guys! These rail textures are very tedious to make compared to trams and regular roads and getting a nice response like that can help prevent me from procrastinating or moving to a different project. Just to explain quickly what it is I keep complaining about, here's what goes into each one:

1) Ballast areas are made by placing layer masks with shading over a standard 256x256 ballast texture--I originally just bent the straight ballast texture but this resulted in blurry ballast, and although it's a relatively minor flaw it was clearly taking a shortcut at the expense of quality. I can mostly recycle existing masks for this purpose but the blurred edges make precise placement very tricky, as you can see in a number of my textures where the edges don't line up properly over a white background. Fortunately this variation isn't noticeable over terrain textures and I think the bit of non-uniformity makes it look just a little better. After the ballast areas are in place a layer of shading needs to be placed over them to give the illusion of depth, which is again tricky due to blurred edges.

2) Rail textures, normally including sleepers, are placed which is quite easy and uses a pretty small set of pieces that keep getting recycled. Creating the pieces required careful fiddling with sleeper spacing and diagonal hassles but only had to be done once. Inside and outside curves have the same radius so there is more space between them in curved areas to avoid collisions with longer railstock.

3) Sleepers in switch areas need to be carefully matched or removed and replaced, with a significant amount of editing done by hand.

4) Extra rails added to switch areas by carefully bending a bare rail texture to the proper radius and removing unneeded sections. Areas where rails intersect require editing by hand.

5) Split piece into individual 256^2 sections for multi-tile pieces, check alignment to match existing pieces in Reader, export .png to folder with all other textures in the set, run batch png fsh on the whole folder to get the newest version of the rail textures.

I've had enough practice that by now it's probably easier and quicker for me than it sounds like, especially if I can remember where to find all those recyclable components  ::)  However, the hand editing, blurs, and masks make this process completely different from all the other textures which I can process pretty quickly by now. This is the reason I'm not exactly rushing to promise a similar treatment for the dramatically larger RRW set--however it is something I really hope will get done. Of course it's possible I'll figure out an easier way to do this without compromising quality--maybe somebody reading this even has a tip for me  ;)

I finished most of the wye switch last night and got a start on the OxD crossing and hope to have those finished this evening. That leaves road crossings, which should be able to reuse their urban draggable lightrail counterparts, that funny diagonal-to-two-not-quite-symmetrical-ortho switch, and heavy rail crossings, plus some other stuff I'm doubtless forgetting. Any opinions on whether the heavy rail crossings should use a standard RRW texture or one based on these rural light rails?

REPLIES:

Quote from: eggman121 on August 17, 2015, 05:05:45 PM
I have not seen this thread in a while and I am amazed at the new tracks that you have made for the RRW and the Light Rail system. I especially like the modification you have made to the overtruss Bridge  :o

So with the flex track in the works I can't but help wonder if you would like a copy of my repository of textures that I have made for the RRW? They are still in the works but mainly complete. Just have to get the RUL 2 right.

Leading on from that I have had long term plans to revitalize the Light Rail network to a suburban transit network. Just pulling thought out of my head. I guess everyone has a different way of using the light rail network and I would like to explore the possibility of adding additional functionality that would satisfy many members wishes. The light rail network could be two things, a metro network, or a tram/ light rail network.

I am keen to see what thoughts you take from this  ;)

-eggman121

Thank you so much! I'm very excited for all the RRW work you've been cooking up and would certainly appreciate a copy of your RRW textures if it's not too inconvenient. I'd love to work with you on future improvements to the light rail network. My vision for it is based on the plans I've discussed here, in the main NORO thread, and in me, Erik, and Red's private NAM thread regarding the tram component and based on plans Isii94 and others discussed in her light rail plans, which are much more developed than my own thoughts regarding the non-tram lightrail. I think it should be quite possible to create a system that works very well for both lightrail/tram and metro systems. Even in its current state which hasn't got a lot of attention in recent NAM dev cycles it's a network with more cosmetic options than anything besides SAM. This area is my biggest NAM interest now but I quickly get bogged down in technical issues and I'd be extremely grateful for expert help and collaboration.

Quote from: mgb204 on August 18, 2015, 10:38:23 AM
Great to see you are still plugging away at this project, some great details with the track switches too  :).

Thanks a lot! I have a lot of plugging away still to do but am very determined to finish and share this project--someday :D

Quote from: manga rivotra on August 18, 2015, 11:14:47 AM
I can't imagine better texture, the level of detail and the precision of the crossings are absolutely incredible !  &apls &apls &apls
I am impatient to redo and develop all my tramway network with your textures. Thanks you  :thumbsup:

Thank you for such a nice comment and a warm welcome to you here :)  I have bad news if you're impatient though: after reading your MD yesterday I got really inspired to make a golf course and switched from this project to that  ;D  Don't worry though, I'll get back to work today  :innocent:

Quote from: vortext on August 18, 2015, 11:15:56 AM
Awesome detailling indeed, great work!!  &apls

Thanks a lot Erik, great to hear from you :)

Quote from: Vizoria on August 18, 2015, 12:32:43 PM
Nice track textures, for some reason the tracks have some kind of 3-dimensional depth to them, although it could be a trick of the eye.
Thanks a lot and welcome :)  I've added shading to the ballast to give the illusion of depth--similar to what I do with curbs on road textures actually. If you're seeing depth on the tracks themselves than it's a fortunate but unintentional accident ;)

I'll try to be back soon with pictures  :)
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: carlfatal on August 19, 2015, 01:03:45 PM
Oh my gosh, this is really great stuff!  &apls

I love the detailing, the sleepers, where they should be, the ballast, that looks like shoveled. I am no expert, but your work here is outstanding and (at least for me) part of a new era in SC4 like all the other NAM parts as well.  &apls
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: Indiana Joe on August 19, 2015, 08:05:31 PM
Looking great as usual Noah!  Can't wait till the project is done; light rail has long needed this RRW-style treatment.   :thumbsup:

I'm interested to see how your 256p textures develop.  Willy considered that route but decided not to; so far yours look great.  They're just a bit too clean for me; need some roughing up.

Keep going  &apls
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: reddonquixote on August 20, 2015, 02:39:11 AM
Yay... excellent progress  :thumbsup:

Great to see you back Noah, hope the big move went well  :)
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: noahclem on September 28, 2015, 05:43:03 AM
I've finally started playing SC4 again in the last couple days and have a couple things to show! Traveling and other things have kept me too busy this summer and once I finally did get time I kept playing Master of Orion II--still can't figure out why I didn't get sick of such an old game a lot quicker  ::)

The first thing I did was play around with HD RRW texture options after seeing the recent posts about additional texture sets for it. Here's a super close up (zoom "sizeof 5") of HD RRW next to my existing rural GLR textures:
click
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FCmpUXiZ.jpg&hash=60a36e797135ba867fd2c10483841f704633f5e5)


Don't plan to expand on these anytime soon but I love the idea!
click
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F4JfC5NG.jpg&hash=416cccec20d7c784e094a2cdf37dd0ed3390eda8)


Next I dug up some models Reddonquixote sent me in early June and finally put them to use :D
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FUUziJYF.jpg&hash=ae967b80af7bab6f68b443de4ac9c84ac84f9ccc)


All these pics are taken with no sidewalk mod installed
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FQZTWL9a.jpg&hash=caaf480c53ece4d2fc771c7b5a0a2548371a1935)


I'm curious what people think of having trees on the lot
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FELNSf79.jpg&hash=5120eb20f80369f3ee1cec30691f838be95642f8)


I think this is pretty much the final version for the avenue stops
click
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FmqooKvw.jpg&hash=d2f021b6b63963b53953b2631d7c4f7c1c596932)

Unfortunately, I hadn't realized that due to a sign telling traffic to keep left these models are only really suitable for LHD--and model tweaker can't mirror image these models. Hopefully Reddonquixote still has the models handy and can make RHD versions. The only other problem is there are three external dependencies at this point. Additionally, the metal grates under the trees have been resized in model tweaker to fit better and look HD and I don't have permission to redistribute them. Most will have the other dependencies but someone is bound to be annoyed  &Thk/(

current RRW HD textures (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0By6RG2miktERaFdMNzVZU21wR1E)

Let me know what you think!

Edits made to resize and further explain

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FNHdXO9J.jpg&hash=f7cf150ec9afe19ca59737cd9e96fa112012e018)

Quote from: carlfatal on August 19, 2015, 01:03:45 PM
Oh my gosh, this is really great stuff!  &apls

I love the detailing, the sleepers, where they should be, the ballast, that looks like shoveled. I am no expert, but your work here is outstanding and (at least for me) part of a new era in SC4 like all the other NAM parts as well.  &apls

Thank you very much for such a nice complement! I hope you enjoy these once they'redone :)

Quote from: Indiana Joe on August 19, 2015, 08:05:31 PM
Looking great as usual Noah!  Can't wait till the project is done; light rail has long needed this RRW-style treatment.   :thumbsup:

I'm interested to see how your 256p textures develop.  Willy considered that route but decided not to; so far yours look great.  They're just a bit too clean for me; need some roughing up.

Keep going  &apls

Thanks! Willy seamed quite sure SD was the way to go from the beginning and when I saw how nice the first prototype textures looked I dropped my argument that HD was the way to go. The SD route was quite a surprise to me though, given the intensely detail-focused nature of his MD. These textures are pretty clean I suppose but I'm not sure how I'd rough them up. Sleepers or ballast or something else? Unfortunately, "roughing up" will make it more difficult to avoid a repetitive, tiled look. I'll attach my current RRW texture in layered GIMP format in case you want to give it a try.

Quote from: reddonquixote on August 20, 2015, 02:39:11 AM
Yay... excellent progress  :thumbsup:

Great to see you back Noah, hope the big move went well  :)
Thanks Jay! We're pretty well settled into the new place and I'm back from all my travels in one piece and ready to get back into my SC4 rhythm ;)  Glad to have finally got around to using your barrier stop models. Now I just have to ask you for a RHD version  ::)


Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: mgb204 on September 28, 2015, 07:29:41 AM
Quote from: noahclem on September 28, 2015, 05:43:03 AM
Additionally, the metal grates under the trees have been resized in model tweaker to fit better and look HD and I don't have permission to redistribute them. Most will have the other dependencies but someone is bound to be annoyed  &Thk/(

Actually there is a way to release re-sized models. The S3D files can be distributed, just not the FSH files that come with them. Take a look inside at the attached file. You'll need this (http://sc4devotion.com/csxlex/lex_filedesc.php?lotGET=3226) dependency for the original models.

All I've done is take a copy of the edited S3D files for each model, then changed the first digit of the Instance ID to a 1 or 2 for two offset variants. Because the game looks for FSH files based on the ID in the MATs tab, it will reference the original FSH files when ID'd this way. Here I've made two offset props that reference the original dependency. If you change the group ID on the S3D files it won't work, since the group ID is not specified for the textures applied.

Otherwise good stuff, great to see this is still moving along. I'm a little worried for pedestrian safety on the tram stop though :D
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: kelis on September 28, 2015, 07:47:00 AM
The picture with those houses is great, even with that sidewalk texture  $%Grinno$%

I can't wait for the final version of this amazing mod, It will open the doors for a lot of new creations and possibilities...

&apls &apls
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: Themistokles on September 28, 2015, 10:39:05 AM
Fabulous, absolutely fabulous! The HD and sheer awesomeness of the textures makes me shiver in anticipation &apls

But I'll have to second mgb204 on pedestrian safety, though -- I'd never dare take the tram in Melbourne $%Grinno$% To be honest, it contributes a little to those shivers :P
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: matias93 on September 28, 2015, 03:57:00 PM
How I dare to not see this thread before, your work is awesome guys; I'm already awaiting the beta!

Talking about safety, most cities that preserve mid-road trams have strict speed restrictions where it passes, a legacy from the times when 50 km/h was absurdly fast, and people just didn't take the time to look at the traffic lights (if they existed at all).

I know this could be hard to do, but maybe some puzzle piece with a pedestrian island could be a more safe option, avoiding to divide avenues or detour trams to a widened sidewalk to give commuters a place to take the tram (all for the sake of realism)
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: Bipin on September 28, 2015, 06:11:56 PM
So damn nifty. The GLR textures are absolutely superb; they're new and fresh, but still generic.
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: APSMS on September 28, 2015, 11:02:19 PM
Quote from: noahclem on September 28, 2015, 05:43:03 AM
Quote from: Indiana Joe on August 19, 2015, 08:05:31 PM
Looking great as usual Noah!  Can't wait till the project is done; light rail has long needed this RRW-style treatment.   :thumbsup:

I'm interested to see how your 256p textures develop.  Willy considered that route but decided not to; so far yours look great.  They're just a bit too clean for me; need some roughing up.

Keep going  &apls

Thanks! Willy seamed quite sure SD was the way to go from the beginning and when I saw how nice the first prototype textures looked I dropped my argument that HD was the way to go. The SD route was quite a surprise to me though, given the intensely detail-focused nature of his MD. These textures are pretty clean I suppose but I'm not sure how I'd rough them up. Sleepers or ballast or something else? Unfortunately, "roughing up" will make it more difficult to avoid a repetitive, tiled look. I'll attach my current RRW texture in layered GIMP format in case you want to give it a try.
It appears to me that the issue is that with the color variations, the sleepers scream "wood", but because the edges are so well defined against the ballast, the material is processed as "concrete", leading (at least for me) to all sorts of warning flags, because wood sleepers never looked so straight and square, even when brand new.

One of the benefits of Willy's textures is that the noise imparted by reducing the texture size to SD (after he presumably worked them at 256px) introduces sampling irregularities that make the sleepers (and to a small extent the ballast) appear used, uneven, and worn the way that most wood sleepers appear when traveling down the line. They also blend with the ballast at certain points, so that despite being drawn square like yours they still appear to be uneven. Some sleepers are shorter than others, and overall there is uncertainty in Willy's textures, while yours are "regular" and thus appear unnatural (at least, to me).

I would suggest using the current sleeper geometry for a concrete set (change color to off-white), and introduce some noisy corners to better simulate wood and wear and grime on the tracks. I'm no texture wizard, but a straightforward comparison between the two seems to suggest that this is what the SD textures have that your HD versions currently lack.

That being said, as GLR tracks, they are superb, though perhaps my idea of GLR is a little skewed (coming from a So Cal resident). I would like to see more of the RRW-style switch guards if you continue with the HD revamp, as the GLR ones are not so realistic [for heavy rail], even if they do pass as excellent in a light-rail setting.
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: SimNation on September 29, 2015, 04:49:52 AM
I am reinstalling SC4 after 7 years thanks to mods like yours being made and ones that came out after 2008. I am a mass transit nut and love making mass transit networks over roadways networks unlike the majority of simcity 4 players  ;) .I look forward to your project the level of detail is lovely and looking good keep up the work. Thanks to modders like you Simcity 4 still lives on and will be my #1 city builder until a contender can take over the reigns. Cities skylines wont be that since its population and city size limitations hinder it thanks in part to the A.I. design and the Unity Engine limitations.

So keep going strong people like how appreciate the hard work being done with sc4 to this day still.
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: Gugu3 on September 29, 2015, 10:44:49 AM
Really nice stuff Noah! &apls
Glad to see you back :thumbsup:
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: reddonquixote on September 30, 2015, 12:59:33 AM
Oh wow, I'd completely forgotten about those. They have worked out pretty well. Absolutely I can do an RHD version (is that just flipping the arrow the other way?)

I love that last pic with the trees casting shadows down onto the street, that's just how I imagine my Collins Street looking when I finally get around to it. I hope I can make it look as good  ;D
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: noahclem on October 01, 2015, 09:45:23 AM
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FsAVb1Wc.jpg&hash=e83a2af688f3880f7942b8c0299a1e4ddc2ac8fa)
*If you're wondering what's up with my replies banners see text at bottom


Since I don't have anything to offer that's not a response to earlier comments I'll just file this all under "replies" in the order that's most convenient to me.

Quote from: reddonquixote on September 30, 2015, 12:59:33 AM
Oh wow, I'd completely forgotten about those. They have worked out pretty well. Absolutely I can do an RHD version (is that just flipping the arrow the other way?)

I love that last pic with the trees casting shadows down onto the street, that's just how I imagine my Collins Street looking when I finally get around to it. I hope I can make it look as good  ;D

Thanks Jay! We'll have to work together to get your Collins Street as nice as possible. As for the RHD version, could you just flip the whole prop on it's long axis? My plan is to have a single lot that works for RHD and LHD but with users installing different props for the different driving sides. I tried out the new TIA stop in my LHD region and am really happy with the results (sorry for the incorrect stoplight alignment):

click
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F0keJnC5.jpg&hash=6ad52368efe60ebeb351a9360dfc8615f8efcfdd)

Since it's a tropical region I replaced the ashes with poplars, though I don't plan a public release of that version. One challenge is those metal grates under the trees. They're originally SD models by vnaoned but for a more fitting size and HD look I reduced them by 50% in model tweaker. It's possible to still refer users to the original S3Ds in a way that mgb204 has suggested but if it's easy enough we could also use a new Melbourne-style model if you want to create it. Are you happy with the fence props? I plan to use the same ones with the more conventional stops as well.

Quote from: APSMS on September 28, 2015, 11:02:19 PM
Quote from: noahclem on September 28, 2015, 05:43:03 AM
Quote from: Indiana Joe on August 19, 2015, 08:05:31 PM
Looking great as usual Noah!  Can't wait till the project is done; light rail has long needed this RRW-style treatment.   :thumbsup:

I'm interested to see how your 256p textures develop.  Willy considered that route but decided not to; so far yours look great.  They're just a bit too clean for me; need some roughing up.

Keep going  &apls

Thanks! Willy seamed quite sure SD was the way to go from the beginning and when I saw how nice the first prototype textures looked I dropped my argument that HD was the way to go. The SD route was quite a surprise to me though, given the intensely detail-focused nature of his MD. These textures are pretty clean I suppose but I'm not sure how I'd rough them up. Sleepers or ballast or something else? Unfortunately, "roughing up" will make it more difficult to avoid a repetitive, tiled look. I'll attach my current RRW texture in layered GIMP format in case you want to give it a try.
It appears to me that the issue is that with the color variations, the sleepers scream "wood", but because the edges are so well defined against the ballast, the material is processed as "concrete", leading (at least for me) to all sorts of warning flags, because wood sleepers never looked so straight and square, even when brand new.

One of the benefits of Willy's textures is that the noise imparted by reducing the texture size to SD (after he presumably worked them at 256px) introduces sampling irregularities that make the sleepers (and to a small extent the ballast) appear used, uneven, and worn the way that most wood sleepers appear when traveling down the line. They also blend with the ballast at certain points, so that despite being drawn square like yours they still appear to be uneven. Some sleepers are shorter than others, and overall there is uncertainty in Willy's textures, while yours are "regular" and thus appear unnatural (at least, to me).

I would suggest using the current sleeper geometry for a concrete set (change color to off-white), and introduce some noisy corners to better simulate wood and wear and grime on the tracks. I'm no texture wizard, but a straightforward comparison between the two seems to suggest that this is what the SD textures have that your HD versions currently lack.

That being said, as GLR tracks, they are superb, though perhaps my idea of GLR is a little skewed (coming from a So Cal resident). I would like to see more of the RRW-style switch guards if you continue with the HD revamp, as the GLR ones are not so realistic [for heavy rail], even if they do pass as excellent in a light-rail setting.

I really appreciate your thoughtful comment here. It seems obvious after hearing it but it somehow never occurred to me. For some reason I also thought that given the quite small size of the sleepers, even very minor Gaussian blurring would change it too much and remove too much of the advantage of HD. After a bunch of tweaking I finally ended up with a full 4px blur in both directions and a texture I really like. What do you think this time?

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fpn1Weam.jpg&hash=0126ae9d964470d4cb20dc6ab3a78191f00ecfde)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F8OXSIqO.png&hash=120e65f2fa7ad3184d77cfeabaeeea35359c8d0a)

And just for fun ;)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FP2dgjXg.jpg&hash=4ae66b446d5de207b7522b3a0a100051a35270c4)

If I do end up deciding to move forward with this project I might tweak the colors to be closer to RRW depending on how it looks with the bridges, as I wouldn't want to lose compatibility with existing RRW-compatible bridges.

Quote from: mgb204 on September 28, 2015, 07:29:41 AM
Quote from: noahclem on September 28, 2015, 05:43:03 AM
Additionally, the metal grates under the trees have been resized in model tweaker to fit better and look HD and I don't have permission to redistribute them. Most will have the other dependencies but someone is bound to be annoyed  &Thk/(

Actually there is a way to release re-sized models. The S3D files can be distributed, just not the FSH files that come with them. Take a look inside at the attached file. You'll need this (http://sc4devotion.com/csxlex/lex_filedesc.php?lotGET=3226) dependency for the original models.

All I've done is take a copy of the edited S3D files for each model, then changed the first digit of the Instance ID to a 1 or 2 for two offset variants. Because the game looks for FSH files based on the ID in the MATs tab, it will reference the original FSH files when ID'd this way. Here I've made two offset props that reference the original dependency. If you change the group ID on the S3D files it won't work, since the group ID is not specified for the textures applied.

Otherwise good stuff, great to see this is still moving along. I'm a little worried for pedestrian safety on the tram stop though :D

Thanks for the comment, the tip, and the example! I'm quite happy to know it's at least possible to release the tram stops the way they are, especially since I'm unaware of any suitable alternative to these metal grates. The stops definitely aren't the safest imaginable but I guess a lack of safety is realistic at times :D

Quote from: kelis on September 28, 2015, 07:47:00 AM
The picture with those houses is great, even with that sidewalk texture  $%Grinno$%

I can't wait for the final version of this amazing mod, It will open the doors for a lot of new creations and possibilities...

&apls &apls

Thanks Jonathan :) I like experimenting with the horrible original sidewalk textures at times because that's doubtless how it will appear to a number of users. Plus it's nice to know that even in that situation the textures look nice :D  Can't wait to have this release ready to share with you!

Quote from: Themistokles on September 28, 2015, 10:39:05 AM
Fabulous, absolutely fabulous! The HD and sheer awesomeness of the textures makes me shiver in anticipation &apls

But I'll have to second mgb204 on pedestrian safety, though -- I'd never dare take the tram in Melbourne $%Grinno$% To be honest, it contributes a little to those shivers :P

Many thanks for your continued support! Definitely a bit of a sketchy safety situation but these types of stops will, of course, be only one type of many for the stops involved with this project. Because of their alignment, however, they're by far the easiest to release and create, being based on existing and thoroughly tested lots. Everything else will need to be at least 3 tiles long or require additional puzzle pieces for the approaches to them.

Quote from: matias93 on September 28, 2015, 03:57:00 PM
How I dare to not see this thread before, your work is awesome guys; I'm already awaiting the beta!

Talking about safety, most cities that preserve mid-road trams have strict speed restrictions where it passes, a legacy from the times when 50 km/h was absurdly fast, and people just didn't take the time to look at the traffic lights (if they existed at all).

I know this could be hard to do, but maybe some puzzle piece with a pedestrian island could be a more safe option, avoiding to divide avenues or detour trams to a widened sidewalk to give commuters a place to take the tram (all for the sake of realism)

Thanks so much and welcome!! These type of tram stops are just one of several with other types all involving platforms/islands for waiting pedestrians. Some time back I started this thread to keep the development of this project separate from the rest of what's going on in the NORO region, and I notice that the other tram stops are all there in the old thread. You can dig around there yourself but I'll also post some pictures:

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FKEkjDMr.jpg&hash=8e370955655406f0417fa2abaad7e23cbb08948e)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FHAWDgef.jpg&hash=5a37514557f0b246a3f118c6e37b8fcf5262b1b5)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FVCvI7Vg.png&hash=58a52c2e38003fbde39bf5358e47e145eff7d518)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fu265cFU.jpg&hash=cbce85af307a11fff559a3b8d765a7f4dbb97a7d)

click
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FwdU8y3X.jpg&hash=4eadfb84382d5670e2f79bbbbd7a426905e05929)

It's not very prominent, but you can see both a tram stop with platforms and special, wider-width TIA network for interfacing with the stops in this picture. A transition puzzle piece or transitions as part of the tram stop lot would be the main way to deal with these stops but I think wider TIA pieces would be a nice option as well.
click
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FsxOioM3.jpg&hash=a3038e1894d9e3ea7a93834e057d1ff0adbef88d)

Concept puzzle piece texture:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FKf2RwX5.png&hash=6c47f4f98e3223cae8c0c425c12af2acc6bf926b)

Quote from: Bipin on September 28, 2015, 06:11:56 PM
So damn nifty. The GLR textures are absolutely superb; they're new and fresh, but still generic.

Thanks a lot, really glad they can be both generic and exciting--exactly what I was going for! :D

Quote from: SimNation on September 29, 2015, 04:49:52 AM
I am reinstalling SC4 after 7 years thanks to mods like yours being made and ones that came out after 2008. I am a mass transit nut and love making mass transit networks over roadways networks unlike the majority of simcity 4 players  ;) .I look forward to your project the level of detail is lovely and looking good keep up the work. Thanks to modders like you Simcity 4 still lives on and will be my #1 city builder until a contender can take over the reigns. Cities skylines wont be that since its population and city size limitations hinder it thanks in part to the A.I. design and the Unity Engine limitations.

So keep going strong people like how appreciate the hard work being done with sc4 to this day still.

Thanks a lot and welcome! SC4 remains king in my mind as well, thanks in part to some great mass transit options that also have pretty impressive looks. I'm excited to be able to build on that and hope you'll be able to enjoy the fruits of my labor soon. Thanks for your support :)

Quote from: Gugu3 on September 29, 2015, 10:44:49 AM
Really nice stuff Noah! &apls
Glad to see you back :thumbsup:

Thanks a lot Guglielmo! Great to see you around as always :)



*I've been having fun with my replies banners, basing them on what I've been up to lately. The previous one was Master of Orion-based, my favorite 4X game which makes SimCity looks very young by comparison, which I'd played a lot in the last month. Today's is work-related as I've gone back to my old job for a week. The pictures are from my two favorite adds, one for Ski Break and the other warning customers that taking their alcoholic beverages outside of the roped off patio area is against the law :D
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: vortext on October 01, 2015, 09:59:19 AM
Quote from: noahclem on October 01, 2015, 09:45:23 AM
*If you're wondering what's up with my replies banners see text at bottom

Know what, I actually did raise my eyebrows at the previous banner, glad you cleared that up!  :D

At any rate, always such a pleasure to see new ingame pictures from your hand Noah, they're so crisp and full of detail!  &apls

The blurring of the sleepers is quite subtle, I like it. Though I wonder if you blurred the tracks as well because they look quite sharp in comparison. If yes, then maybe add some more still. 
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: noahclem on October 01, 2015, 10:36:32 AM
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FwSlVYPL.jpg&hash=856efd9e16bced12e67ad39c15f805a66877623e)

Quote from: vortext on October 01, 2015, 09:59:19 AM
Quote from: noahclem on October 01, 2015, 09:45:23 AM
*If you're wondering what's up with my replies banners see text at bottom

Know what, I actually did raise my eyebrows at the previous banner, glad you cleared that up!  :D

At any rate, always such a pleasure to see new ingame pictures from your hand Noah, they're so crisp and full of detail!  &apls

The blurring of the sleepers is quite subtle, I like it. Though I wonder if you blurred the tracks as well because they look quite sharp in comparison. If yes, then maybe add some more still.


I played around with colors on the rails a bit though I can't remember now if any of those tweaks made it into the most recent textures. I even toyed with having part of the rails brighter to mark shininess from frequent use, in part due to Absalom's earlier comment--but then went hunting for any sign of shininess from satellite photos and couldn't find any. After remembering the importance of bridge texture compatibility I've been increasingly keen on having coloration similar to current RRW textures. My opinion at the moment is that blurring isn't needed for the rails, and there currently isn't any, but I am curious why you suggest that and will certainly take your ideas into account :)

Thanks for the nice comment about the city too! Unlike almost all of these that I show with the tram pictures, this is an actual city which will be the core of my new region. Hopefully I'll have more fun stuff to show from there as it develops :)
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: carlfatal on October 01, 2015, 01:22:25 PM
Very, very nice pictures!  &apls

Particulary the image, where the tram meets the viaduct made me wonder, if this is really made with SC4. This is absolutely wonderful stuff.  :thumbsup:
...although here around the tram is built with asphalt cover... And sometimes I miss this in SC4.
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: mgb204 on October 01, 2015, 05:03:59 PM
Quote from: noahclem on October 01, 2015, 10:36:32 AM
After remembering the importance of bridge texture compatibility I've been increasingly keen on having coloration similar to current RRW textures.

Are you planning on reusing the RRW bridges for GLR then?

Currently I know of only one RRW bridge, it's got replaceable textures as they are not batted into the model. Sadly the same can't be said of the Tram in Road bridge which sticks out like a sore thumb. I am tempted to do something about this myself if no one else does, it's pretty much the last piece I've yet to make conform to my GLR mod.

Moving on, those are some really stunning pictures you've shown there, the whole GLR project looks so much better in an actual city. Really can't wait for this, I'm sure I won't be using my GLR much longer :).
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: belfastsocrates on October 02, 2015, 04:14:17 AM
The GLR textures are looking fantastic, really superb work.
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: Gugu3 on October 02, 2015, 09:00:47 AM
Excellent textures!really curious about bridges now... :P
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: noahclem on November 17, 2015, 01:08:52 PM
I've been active with textures again over the last week or two and have felt pretty good about the headway I've made, though I've run into a number of issues that I'll need to figure out, mainly dealing with errors I'm getting in converting png images to mods (missing zooms and rotations or missing textures altogether) and with converting puzzle pieces to my standard that become difficult due to the same tile texture (and paths) being used by multiple puzzle pieces. I've been actively working to resolve these problems and will keep you guys updated as I learn answers to my stumbling blocks.

A recent picture of puzzle pieces still needing to be done, in progress, or recently finished, including some visible problems mentioned above:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FHLhfFIi.jpg&hash=e6489d0edfd2224e3207c8dfb9bf4ea4913d0396)

And of rotations that work and those that don't:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FmaztWlS.jpg&hash=fad41cdf5a0d11acc84121c880094932388b6bf9)

Here's a piece I did most of the work on a long time ago but never added to my WIP mod. I decided to get rid of the sharper curves from the original piece as I couldn't find any RL tram networks with similarly tight minimum turning radii and I realized how rare grand unions in tram networks are (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_union), though I also made textures with the same rail turning possibilities as the original and textures for a larger puzzle piece with the same functionality. My choice to align the 45 degree turns (135 degree angle) caused major problems with shared textures as is visible above.
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FJxUw1PZ.png&hash=ed742425af3b2307662e405781020d6c025bf74e)

This one is still WIP, and while it also is affected by shared tiles (reason for location of left-to-right crosswalks), it will retain the same functionality as the original piece. I through in a slip lane though, which I don't mind changing if people think a more conventional junction would be better. More complicated junctions like that in a dense environment are quite rare/difficult (as opposed to RHW in more spacious environs) and I thought this could add a bit of character. I don't have a strong opinion on it though ;)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F2tfN0k1.png&hash=0eb2d2b6508f52b4cadd47a960761d7467696a8f)

Was happy to add this little transition to the already-created TOR4-to-TIA transition:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FWek3QjX.png&hash=ffe114c73ce74d3136e2c9d5d3100e698d2d74ba)

I've done a tiny bit of work on the NWM textures too. An avenue-to-RD6 transition:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FAvpDhnf.png&hash=cb0980d9aa3cd72eb3983f16e93a75fa1452985c)
I thought their outer curbs were in the same place but are a couple pixels off--IIRC, that's because I wanted to leave space to accommodate a very small median for an eventual variant of this mod that might be useful to Euro users not so familiar with 6 lanes of road with no median. Some might consider the usefulness of that dubious, as parallel OWR3s can accomplish something quite similar, though I have to say the tiny bit of experimenting I did with a narrow median for RD6 did look quite nice and, particularly with my narrower OWR3, quite different than parallel OWR3s. Having an identically-aligned outer curb would allow for more copy-paste intersection textures but I would still need to add medians for any avenue one. I also think that the current RD6 texture is aligned with the RD4+bike lane+parallel parking textures--a style that I have some interest in, as an option at least.

Speaking of the 3-lane-per-direction-of-traffic networks, here's the new OWR3-RD6 transition:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FbSQNM79.png&hash=683abe46af06e7b64196269dab08a26332c576f2)

And an attempt at TLA7--never been sure what to do with this network as keeping a(n almost) consistent lane width for NWM+Ave while also keeping the lane border of the 3-tile NWMs and 3-tile RHWs on the tile border wasn't possible. My other idea, which conserved the lane width numbers, was for 3-and-2-halves lanes in the center tile for TLAs and use of 2xhalf OWR5s on the outside--looks nice but there's 2 extra lanes ;)

TLA7:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FzvsbRex.png&hash=37afcdf8a1d30fe28298caebfdaa846ae128f5b4)(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FXReL07S.png&hash=b7116f40da85ab4b969840bb2609b3e1da252b58)

As opposed to the planned AVE6 network:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FzvsbRex.png&hash=37afcdf8a1d30fe28298caebfdaa846ae128f5b4)(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F3fac0it.png&hash=6d5ccbbe6cb9e59bd2aee750bad5b3a088616154)

I've also been working on a few lot textures for paths crossing RRW, at Arthur's request. Only the one with the diverging tracks is to replace an existing texture that I'm aware of, but I messed up on the first try, I assume by forgetting things need to be done differently with lot textures than with transit textures. Hopefully it ends up being useful at some point though  ::)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FXU8zwjt.png&hash=17340f3ff757e5093b4c462d029713f726cf2d28)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Foh7DTF5.png&hash=ff21ead29b31c8615869efdcf322dbde7c4a2715)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fmsv2ULI.png&hash=efaaac172a9cbcfffb66c31cf533c13d15255f1f)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FdMnloYU.png&hash=ded5d057c99366bee06d8d5ed7e567db0fa53f76)


Happy to hear your thoughts! Thanks again for all the earlier feedback :)
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: Simcoug on November 17, 2015, 02:13:12 PM
The x-ing RRW paths are stupendous!   :thumbsup:
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: Gugu3 on November 17, 2015, 02:29:50 PM
Excellent job Noah!it's great to know that so many talented people are out there working to improve the game!
Excellent textures. I like that slip lane :thumbsup:
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: art128 on November 17, 2015, 02:30:52 PM
Great textures... I can already have some use for the RRW one...... :) :)
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: Ernestmaxis on November 18, 2015, 01:38:15 AM
This project is looking really brilliant what a great texture!
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: tobsen on November 18, 2015, 06:36:41 AM
Wow...these Textures look really awesome, espacially those on the previous Site...i'd love to use them in my Cities. :-)
Are you going/planning to release them? Maybe in the next NAM?

Cheers

Tobsen

Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: noahclem on January 08, 2016, 07:18:45 AM
Wow, hadn't realized it's been this long since I updated here! I've been busy most of the time lately but have been getting work done here and there. I've come to the conclusion that making these can have a relaxing effect on me, like crosswords or sudoku are for some people, so I tend to progress slowly unless I'm just tired of them ;)

The first area I've been working on was extending the tram-in-road and tram-on-road functionality, including curves, diagonals, and intersections.

Vortext has long been planning to make the other textures I've been working on lately, which are the SAM-based tram-on-street and other related textures like SAMs and a stone OWR1 variant that I think would be a good option to have. Ultimately, the most important motivation for me doing these is that I enjoy using them, and the impetus for this set has been working on the old center of Avalonia/Siilijoki. The textures are borrowed from Vortext's lot textures, with additions from CP's lot/sidewalk textures, and my rails based on Willy's RRW, all adapted to a transit network.

Here's most of the TOS & SAM, with a few TIR:

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FdLT7g0I.png&hash=5c8d69d2da09f52d738527e67ab4b805c3f06db8)(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F8mlg3Cd.png&hash=6aaef43618436f31020f159ffab0879917bdc137)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fi2puGpu.png&hash=ee8c2c5238a5f6a92b937774d76cbf784bff9378)(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FgDb9y31.png&hash=ac137307dec0042418f81935b57ec0345429c2ae)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fhqlp9do.png&hash=bf34be3cdc6afd43efd214219ba203d35747b12f)(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FMnuj9TN.png&hash=61a67834cb5b361ee1a055faf47baac85f72da03)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FHs5WR5n.png&hash=389d3a4c0b4b754956632f58141f07819339ee2a)(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fti8fXBA.png&hash=612d4e08a927e0a8289c799b5496067285103639)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FK4KEVs8.png&hash=cf0c9d5cb4228180bcef2b29d211d4898496ab25)(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FK4KEVs8.png&hash=cf0c9d5cb4228180bcef2b29d211d4898496ab25)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FgPhgGE5.png&hash=972dc8743581c40b84de9feb1496e813a1ead575)(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FeDXsVEq.png&hash=97e2fa64eec7b92cbea645fb3a7b33bba7f2324c)


One of the tricky decisions has been how to handle crosswalks and how to differentiate between regular tram (which has curbs in my standard versions though other options will be simultaneously available for simple setups) and tram-on-street. I've been using these purplish stones from CP for crosswalks for now and aligning them with the edge of tiles to allow for a transition to any type of tram pavement. I've adjusted the depth shading at crosswalk areas to give the illusion of a flat surface there. Am open to ideas in this area.
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F2WpyxLc.png&hash=16496b8833cf64749c23f2d136e48a58d2056615)(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FWnISnPK.png&hash=953f2a06f52f8691ac8cc6864433ff3eddba609d)(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F6u6QeYc.png&hash=13d617a5fe658de21f43c69282ba8e0bc6af6a83)


(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FDpEydg4.png&hash=2ff99f7f35f7d72454b4ae9cc928f4301c39708e)(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F0Ja7gsv.png&hash=d72cf5834f0951bb9d7e73580c5e8d6ea40a286b)


(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FLpqgJ2r.png&hash=7d76e59a675745b4cb4fe8bdefe0cf9be6fb97ae)(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FzC6P5EQ.png&hash=0f88c2af09c48dce3de6fb67270e424cb8fbfb2a)(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FTdSE17e.png&hash=60c2933c232e9404089295986eb69eb610a94447)


Originally I planned lane shading similar to what other SC4 networks have but I didn't like the look and eventually dropped it
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FrLjfplW.png&hash=854eac2086b34a940cefea20c7be279709479443)(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FHcCEKui.png&hash=4aefdb7b33b4de29b01f2b000d2f2ee287232d3e)(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FM3PpUUt.png&hash=3ca1f667a8aa7ff3245e550cb1bc7f6df8a528c5)


(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fg4rdurV.png&hash=5f39f5c8e73d069253a1504db53091772ae792b2)(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F1OoM91g.png&hash=606c251d4cafe13947c8567f2db38570d4f4d544)


Some in-game expamples:

click
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FwCiG6hG.jpg&hash=011e25ee21b72dc9373b99bb9ff2a9797969148e)


Barrier stops visible in this zoom:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FzfItsSL.jpg&hash=6db8879d4025dafa6ce73431984040235c7cff7e)


But not this one. Willy noticed a problem with too many base textures but after fixing the same problem still occurred for me.
click
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FER3gKqZ.jpg&hash=35d4b2925e447e848221c90e322d9b81579affa3)


Thanks for the feedback as always!

Welcome tobsen, and yes, I'm planning to release, but not for either of the two NAMs that have been released since your post :D  Plenty of work still remains but I make alpha copies available on request and plan a public beta before release as well :)

Hopefully I'll be back again a little sooner next time  ::)
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: Simcoug on January 08, 2016, 07:32:09 AM
The tracks on vortext's cobblestones looks amazing!   :bnn:
:popcorn:
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: romualdillo on January 08, 2016, 08:37:09 AM
I'm feeling really really enthusiastic with that!!!  :bnn: :bnn:
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: Gugu3 on January 08, 2016, 08:58:27 AM
This is great!
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: Simmer2 on January 08, 2016, 09:04:50 AM
Noah, that is fantastic!!  &apls
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: c.p. on January 08, 2016, 01:50:43 PM
I agree with Simcoug, the rails and cobblestones look great :thumbsup:
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: compdude787 on January 08, 2016, 02:52:11 PM
Looks nice!
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: vester on January 08, 2016, 03:11:59 PM
The cobble stone textures and all looks great !!!......


but not sure I want to stand and wait for a tram between the road and the tram tracks......

The people in your pictures stand way over on the 'yellow line'


(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs0.geograph.org.uk%2Fgeophotos%2F02%2F83%2F92%2F2839261_3f94a3ef.jpg&hash=8783194d83e3f4cb3049093d69413361ec544a6a)

(if the train speed was just a bit to high, I think I would clink on to the rail in that picture :( )

.... and yes I know we talked about.....










.... and shine on You Crazy Diamond......
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: mgb204 on January 08, 2016, 05:35:44 PM
Love your GLR, the cobblestone textures are just fantastic.  :thumbsup:

Quote from: vester on January 08, 2016, 03:11:59 PM
but not sure I want to stand and wait for a tram between the road and the tram tracks......

The people in your pictures stand way over on the 'yellow line'

That's what the railings are for, so you can hold on tight :D.
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: kbieniu7 on January 09, 2016, 04:03:08 AM
Quote from: mgb204 on January 08, 2016, 05:35:44 PM
Love your GLR, the cobblestone textures are just fantastic.  :thumbsup:

Quote from: vester on January 08, 2016, 03:11:59 PM
but not sure I want to stand and wait for a tram between the road and the tram tracks......

The people in your pictures stand way over on the 'yellow line'

That's what the railings are for, so you can hold on tight :D.

Yeah, I wanted to mention the same :D I think, in such situation, a waiting place should be simply on the sidewalk. Crossing one lane to board the tram should not be that problem :P
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: mgb204 on January 09, 2016, 05:43:00 AM
The issue is really that there is so little space to work with between the tram lines. I still think personally the platform should generally be in the middle though. That's by far and away the most typical type of tram stop I'm used too.
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: vortext on January 09, 2016, 06:30:52 AM
It looks really great Noah, though frankly I always imagined TiR/ToR would tie into the cobble stone roads. Given you're much more prolific with this project maybe I should send you some files.  :)
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: mattb325 on January 09, 2016, 01:34:38 PM
These are looking quite amazing  &apls. I really like the transitions between the cobblestone textures
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: manga rivotra on January 09, 2016, 03:22:57 PM
I love your new textures, it'll be a great improvement for the game ! &apls &apls &apls
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: Swordmaster on January 12, 2016, 06:49:35 PM
Exceptional work Noah. I don't think I've ever seen more appealing transit textures than the RLR.  Sorry for not fixing that station -- I can't replicate the bug, though.

Now, with regard to the HD RRW texture. This observation by APSMS is well-thought, but not entirely correct:

Quote from: APSMS on September 28, 2015, 11:02:19 PMOne of the benefits of Willy's textures is that the noise imparted by reducing the texture size to SD (after he presumably worked them at 256px) introduces sampling irregularities that make the sleepers (and to a small extent the ballast) appear used, uneven, and worn the way that most wood sleepers appear when traveling down the line. They also blend with the ballast at certain points, so that despite being drawn square like yours they still appear to be uneven. Some sleepers are shorter than others, and overall there is uncertainty in Willy's textures, while yours are "regular" and thus appear unnatural (at least, to me).

I made the textures originally in SD. The noise you see is because my sleepers have a degree of transparency, so that the ballast shows through. Which, combined with the varied pixelization of the ballast is actually a visual trick that makes the sleepers seem to lie in the ballast, rather than on top of it.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcbsminnesota.files.wordpress.com%2F2010%2F11%2Frailroad_39202445.jpg&hash=842e8fd5ff0c3c927e946bc4fe2cc91232f63767)


As for why I picked SD, I don't think it ever was a very public discussion. I had several pages worth of private messaging with Ron (rivit) before launching the public RRW thread--given that he was the only active rail developer at the time--and he made interesting observations regarding the number of sleepers, the contrast, and the effects of subtle differences in the texture on the entire network's shape and visibility from zooms higher up. I expect HD textures to expound on these issues. I'd like to see your texture in game, and at different angles (FA as well), to see what happens when you zoom out rather than in. It might be the image compression, but I think I can already see some of the game's HD rendering problems on the bridge in that z3 shot (http://i.imgur.com/jShyyHF.jpg). Imagine having a railyard full of these, and you're quickly looking at a headache. (And despite my MD zooming in quite often, I've always been more of an overview guy.)

There are other reasons was well. I was already inconfident enough about RRW's adoption rate, with the scale change and potential difficulties with lot integration, that a switch to HD seemed too much. Plus I had (still have) a fear of HD creep. Your tram network will find a handsome ally in HD sidewalks and a range of HD BATs that exist for urban settings. However, with railways being a far more extensive network in rural and suburban settings, in my opinion it will often look to draw too much attention to its HDness next to mostly SD lots and textures. I love HD--you know that--but I hate the contrast with SD when both appear together.

And you've already found this out--HD accentuates every tiny error in the texture, and with rail textures already being very detailed in and of themselves, I had too big a task ahead of me to add to my troubles.

That's not to say a HD version can't look just as good or better, of course. But try to remember how big a job it is.


Cheers
Willy

(PS: Come to think of it, if you ever want to make a HD RRW mod, you could stick to replacing only the z5 textures. That way our rendering problem is already fixed.)
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: Simmer2 on January 12, 2016, 07:02:59 PM
Nooooo.... oh Lord no HD RRW please!
Willy, making RRW in SD was the best thing you could have done.
HD would definitively expose any texture variations (new word : oldiefication) which are an integral part of the RRW look.
The sleepers and ballast noise is a must in order to achieve that degree of decay which emulates real life old tracks.

My two cents.

Nick

Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: reddonquixote on January 12, 2016, 08:44:03 PM
You've been very busy Noah! These look great, I love the cobbled tracks. The versions with the dark roads against the light-grey pavement look slightly odd to me though. It looks like there are gaping chasms either side of the tracks... maybe I just saw it that way and now I can't un-see it.

The ones you decide to drop look amazing btw  :D
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: noahclem on January 29, 2016, 10:08:23 AM
Thanks for the lively feedback guys! In what is unfortunately starting to seem like the norm I'll have to get back to replies a little later as I now need to head to dinner. Replies done, at least for the previous update ;)

Finally took an afternoon to work on SimCity stuff and got a couple things done that I've been trying to for a long time: a TIA version with sets/stones instead of asphalt and a version of the tram pavement more at home in an environment with those other fancier networks that still matches the color of the other tram pavement. For that I took the original pavement and tried to turn it into little pavers by running them through GIMP until I got something close to what I was after. I built up an area quick to display the new stuff (same area as last time :D ) but since it was a quick, disposable build there's a lot of stuff that could be done better: no plaza texture mod for these sidewalks, lots with props extending onto the roads, slope troubles, etc, etc--hope you don't mind ;)

click for 1861x1770
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FDLkbML4.jpg&hash=7edecfea220615bb734a3556b8c307ab5d375e46)

Thanks for looking :)

EDIT--Comments are in!! :D

Quote from: reddonquixote on January 12, 2016, 08:44:03 PM
You've been very busy Noah! These look great, I love the cobbled tracks. The versions with the dark roads against the light-grey pavement look slightly odd to me though. It looks like there are gaping chasms either side of the tracks... maybe I just saw it that way and now I can't un-see it.

The ones you decide to drop look amazing btw  :D

Thanks! I see what you mean about that though it took me a minute to understand--maybe I won't be able to un-see it either :D  This new type of TIA eliminates that problem though it leaves a rather abrupt transition from the tram pavers and the sets which may or may not benefit from some kind of smoother transition. This basically just pushes the problem to the next network though, tram-in-avenue. I think it should be possible to make a really cool-looking transition where the asphalt starts covering the sets over a couple meters in a way that is often seen in RL where asphalt is laid over earlier stone and brick streets.

Quote from: Simmer2 on January 08, 2016, 09:04:50 AM
Noah, that is fantastic!!  &apls
Quote from: Simmer2 on January 12, 2016, 07:02:59 PM
Nooooo.... oh Lord no HD RRW please!
Willy, making RRW in SD was the best thing you could have done.
HD would definitively expose any texture variations (new word : oldiefication) which are an integral part of the RRW look.
The sleepers and ballast noise is a must in order to achieve that degree of decay which emulates real life old tracks.

My two cents.

Nick

First, thanks!! Second, there's no alternate dimension in which RRW will ever be forcibly HD-ified. However, showing a degree of decay and the like is possible in HD too, though much more difficult, as everything else is with HD rails. Really doing RRW justice in HD would be a Herculean effort as my experience indicates each individual texture is at least an order of magnitude more difficult than a comparable SD one. But yeah, really no need to worry here, or for that matter for anyone else to be excited about possible HD RRW as I'd call it very unlikely to ever be achieved.

Quote from: Swordmaster on January 12, 2016, 06:49:35 PM
Exceptional work Noah. I don't think I've ever seen more appealing transit textures than the RLR.  Sorry for not fixing that station -- I can't replicate the bug, though.

Now, with regard to the HD RRW texture. This observation by APSMS is well-thought, but not entirely correct:

Quote from: APSMS on September 28, 2015, 11:02:19 PMOne of the benefits of Willy's textures is that the noise imparted by reducing the texture size to SD (after he presumably worked them at 256px) introduces sampling irregularities that make the sleepers (and to a small extent the ballast) appear used, uneven, and worn the way that most wood sleepers appear when traveling down the line. They also blend with the ballast at certain points, so that despite being drawn square like yours they still appear to be uneven. Some sleepers are shorter than others, and overall there is uncertainty in Willy's textures, while yours are "regular" and thus appear unnatural (at least, to me).

I made the textures originally in SD. The noise you see is because my sleepers have a degree of transparency, so that the ballast shows through. Which, combined with the varied pixelization of the ballast is actually a visual trick that makes the sleepers seem to lie in the ballast, rather than on top of it.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcbsminnesota.files.wordpress.com%2F2010%2F11%2Frailroad_39202445.jpg&hash=842e8fd5ff0c3c927e946bc4fe2cc91232f63767)


As for why I picked SD, I don't think it ever was a very public discussion. I had several pages worth of private messaging with Ron (rivit) before launching the public RRW thread--given that he was the only active rail developer at the time--and he made interesting observations regarding the number of sleepers, the contrast, and the effects of subtle differences in the texture on the entire network's shape and visibility from zooms higher up. I expect HD textures to expound on these issues. I'd like to see your texture in game, and at different angles (FA as well), to see what happens when you zoom out rather than in. It might be the image compression, but I think I can already see some of the game's HD rendering problems on the bridge in that z3 shot (http://i.imgur.com/jShyyHF.jpg). Imagine having a railyard full of these, and you're quickly looking at a headache. (And despite my MD zooming in quite often, I've always been more of an overview guy.)

There are other reasons was well. I was already inconfident enough about RRW's adoption rate, with the scale change and potential difficulties with lot integration, that a switch to HD seemed too much. Plus I had (still have) a fear of HD creep. Your tram network will find a handsome ally in HD sidewalks and a range of HD BATs that exist for urban settings. However, with railways being a far more extensive network in rural and suburban settings, in my opinion it will often look to draw too much attention to its HDness next to mostly SD lots and textures. I love HD--you know that--but I hate the contrast with SD when both appear together.

And you've already found this out--HD accentuates every tiny error in the texture, and with rail textures already being very detailed in and of themselves, I had too big a task ahead of me to add to my troubles.

That's not to say a HD version can't look just as good or better, of course. But try to remember how big a job it is.


Cheers
Willy

(PS: Come to think of it, if you ever want to make a HD RRW mod, you could stick to replacing only the z5 textures. That way our rendering problem is already fixed.)

Thanks a lot Willy, I really appreciate the compliment! And of course, thanks for all your help with whatever I try to mod and end up breaking :D  We've had a chance to talk about it a decent amount now and I think understand our positions on the SD/HD thing--SD was definitely the right way to go for making RRW (despite my initial comments way back in the day) and playing with HD stuff is pretty fun, but only really as a novelty. Unless someone at some point gets extremely ambitious that it ;)

Quote from: manga rivotra on January 09, 2016, 03:22:57 PM
I love your new textures, it'll be a great improvement for the game ! &apls &apls &apls

Thanks a lot! Hope you enjoy them whenever I'm finally able to make them available ;)

Quote from: mattb325 on January 09, 2016, 01:34:38 PM
These are looking quite amazing  &apls. I really like the transitions between the cobblestone textures
Thanks a lot Matt, glad to see you here!

Quote from: vortext on January 09, 2016, 06:30:52 AM
It looks really great Noah, though frankly I always imagined TiR/ToR would tie into the cobble stone roads. Given you're much more prolific with this project maybe I should send you some files.  :)
Thanks Erik! I'd guess you'd do a better job at this then me and I certainly wouldn't have a bad thing to say about your cobble stone roads. The main reason I actually started this set is that I got to a point in my city development that I really couldn't keep working around the TOS stuff and with your beautiful 512 multi-fshs to work with I figured I had the tools I needed to make a decent set. There's no reason not to make your own version though, which might be particularly useful since mine are made in a pretty specialized way that's geared more toward detail and the closest zooms than the mainstream user probably prefers. Anyway, whenever you want to start on it I'm happy to provide whatever rails you would find of use :)

And yes, please to the file lending ;)

Quote from: mgb204 on January 08, 2016, 05:35:44 PM
Love your GLR, the cobblestone textures are just fantastic.  :thumbsup:

Quote from: vester on January 08, 2016, 03:11:59 PM
but not sure I want to stand and wait for a tram between the road and the tram tracks......

The people in your pictures stand way over on the 'yellow line'

That's what the railings are for, so you can hold on tight :D.
Quote from: mgb204 on January 09, 2016, 05:43:00 AM
The issue is really that there is so little space to work with between the tram lines. I still think personally the platform should generally be in the middle though. That's by far and away the most typical type of tram stop I'm used too.

Thanks a lot Robin, though Erik's textures provide the best looking part of these, and I'm also building on c.p.'s and Willy's textures for the crosswalks and rail respectively, though when I converted the rails to HD they became only loosely based on the actual RRW rail fshs.

I agree with your point that having the platform in the middle seems the most common and realistic way to do it. Back, I think, before this discussion was split from the main NORO thread we went through a fairly thorough investigation of how best to do these and these actual stops are extremely similar to how they seem to be in Melbourne, which is loosely the model I'm using for this mod. Of course you already are familiar with most of that having followed this project forever but I'll direct the other concerned people this way ;)  And, in late-breaking news, I think it could be possible to modify the texture slightly to increase the space for the peeps waiting on the rails by a handful of pictures: after converting to a baked in curb with the stone versions of the TIR and getting feedback from Willy, I've moved the curb slightly outward so that it covers the whole tile. With some ever-so-slight squeezing in every possible place I could probably widen the waiting area by almost .5m.

Quote from: kbieniu7 on January 09, 2016, 04:03:08 AM
Quote from: mgb204 on January 08, 2016, 05:35:44 PM
Love your GLR, the cobblestone textures are just fantastic.  :thumbsup:

Quote from: vester on January 08, 2016, 03:11:59 PM
but not sure I want to stand and wait for a tram between the road and the tram tracks......

The people in your pictures stand way over on the 'yellow line'

That's what the railings are for, so you can hold on tight :D.

Yeah, I wanted to mention the same :D I think, in such situation, a waiting place should be simply on the sidewalk. Crossing one lane to board the tram should not be that problem :P

Thanks for commenting! I mentioned in the comment above the reason it's done the way it is here. Would be nice to add a small amount of space but from what I can see in Melbourne there's no significant change to lane width, etc.

Quote from: vester on January 08, 2016, 03:11:59 PM
The cobble stone textures and all looks great !!!......


but not sure I want to stand and wait for a tram between the road and the tram tracks......

The people in your pictures stand way over on the 'yellow line'


(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs0.geograph.org.uk%2Fgeophotos%2F02%2F83%2F92%2F2839261_3f94a3ef.jpg&hash=8783194d83e3f4cb3049093d69413361ec544a6a)

(if the train speed was just a bit to high, I think I would clink on to the rail in that picture :( )

.... and yes I know we talked about.....
.... and shine on You Crazy Diamond......

Thanks buddy :)  I answered the main part of the space/yellow line question two spots up to Robin, and the geometry for these is pretty closely and accurately based on stops in Melbourne. They probably wouldn't design new stops in such a cramped manner but that doesn't mean these types aren't around ;)

Quote from: compdude787 on January 08, 2016, 02:52:11 PM
Looks nice!

Thanks!

Quote from: c.p. on January 08, 2016, 01:50:43 PM
I agree with Simcoug, the rails and cobblestones look great :thumbsup:

Thanks a lot! I love those textures of yours I've been using for the crosswalks and hope you don't mind me using them--I think they make for a really good-looking intersection :)

Quote from: Gugu3 on January 08, 2016, 08:58:27 AM
This is great!
Thanks Guglielmo!

Quote from: romualdillo on January 08, 2016, 08:37:09 AM
I'm feeling really really enthusiastic with that!!!  :bnn: :bnn:
Thanks a lot, glad you like it! Could fit really well with the type of cities you've been making such nice bats for!

Quote from: Simcoug on January 08, 2016, 07:32:09 AM
The tracks on vortext's cobblestones looks amazing!   :bnn:
:popcorn:
Thank you very much! Can't go wrong with vortext's work, just hope I do it justice ;)
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: Gugu3 on January 29, 2016, 11:28:41 AM
Good work on the textures Noah!I am liking it :thumbsup:
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: compdude787 on January 29, 2016, 01:24:55 PM
Looking better and better! I would certainly plan on using this stuff if I ever get around to building mass transit in my cities (I currently only have a very limited subway system) but for now, I'm way more interested in building freeways. In fact, my sims even regard me as the Robert Moses (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Moses) of Lamont, since I'm so obsessed with building only freeways! :D
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: Themistokles on January 29, 2016, 02:17:37 PM
Looks nice and the textures are wonderful :thumbsup: Is this a complete texture replacement (for all roads/only TiR, ToR and/or ToS?) or something that can be used in a certain area only?
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: vortext on January 29, 2016, 02:24:01 PM
That's splendid indeed.  &apls
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: romualdillo on January 29, 2016, 02:26:48 PM
Those textures look wonderful!! They match perfectly with that "old town" armosphere. Great work!!  &apls
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: Simmer2 on January 29, 2016, 02:42:27 PM
Well done Noah  &apls &apls
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: Swordmaster on January 30, 2016, 06:04:54 PM
Just get on with it, will ya?

All kidding aside, though. I've been fortunate enough to get a glimpse of some of these textures in the game, and I must say one quickly gets used to them. Now I can't really go back to the GLR as it is $%Grinno$%. (Sounds familiar?)

In fact, I was equally fortunate back in the day to see the first steps taken towards them, and even though they were good in their first iteration, they've been taken up many levels since. I really hope you get to finishing these in the relative short term, so that everyone can enjoy them. :thumbsup:


Cheers
Willy
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: noahclem on February 01, 2016, 07:58:18 PM
Thanks for the feedback guys!

Quote from: Themistokles on January 29, 2016, 02:17:37 PM
Looks nice and the textures are wonderful :thumbsup: Is this a complete texture replacement (for all roads/only TiR, ToR and/or ToS?) or something that can be used in a certain area only?

This work with vortext's textures is just meant for the networks that already have something similar (TOS & SAM) and the other networks that are the best candidates (TIR, TOR, OWR1, some forms of GLR) for now. Additional options would nice but I think other parts of the mod should be higher priority. These textures also take substantially more work than standard asphalt ones and the alignment of all the stones/sets is done as well as I reasonably can, especially when it comes to where the sets border the rails. For each texture/set of textures I do quite a bit of thinking and experimenting about how best to do them and usually bother people like Willy or Arthur for feedback on the unfinished versions--I spent most of today doing the roundabouts and the family of TOS textures involving the 45 degree turn and didn't even finish all the latter. To add insult to injury, after finishing the 45 degree TOS turn I realized I'd already made it once before  :facepalm: If no one else does them first though, I would like to eventually expand the stone textures based off vortext's work. And incidentally, I think Erik has at least a basic road set already made that romualdillo has been showing in his bat thread.

I guess I made most of my points already in what was supposed to be a quick reply to Themistokles :D  Will get back to thank the rest of you later :)  For today I wanted to show the TOS roundabout I made today.



(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi779.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fyy77%2Fnoahclem%2FToS_roundabout_demo_zpstfpa2zsm.jpg&hash=bf66700818acd8334e464b7dde6699ac51308c7b)
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: Simmer2 on February 01, 2016, 09:21:11 PM
Magnificent  &apls &apls
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: reddonquixote on February 01, 2016, 10:33:58 PM
Wow, that looks fantastic - great work  :thumbsup: &apls &apls
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: mgb204 on February 01, 2016, 10:47:25 PM
This just keeps getting better  &apls

I wouldn't have a use for such textures myself, but here mixed in with Romaualdillo's bats everything is just so :). Glad you are still pushing on with this project, it's a whole new level of quality for GLR.
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: Gugu3 on February 02, 2016, 01:08:12 AM
Great stuff :thumbsup:
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: Vizoria on February 02, 2016, 01:53:03 AM
Very pretty, you even lightened the curb in places to highlight the lowered curb at pedestrian crossings.
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: art128 on February 02, 2016, 03:05:26 AM
Wonderful textures. :)

As I mentioned on Skype (Seems you missed it) I think it's more logical of the pavement texture between the rails stops at the start of the inner roundabout for grass. I would also not cut the ring of grey stones.

This is what I meant:

(https://i.imgur.com/t25yOcM.jpg)
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: kbieniu7 on February 02, 2016, 03:07:57 AM
Wow :shocked2: Fabolous...
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: Simcoug on February 02, 2016, 07:44:45 AM
 :popcorn:
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: Swordmaster on February 02, 2016, 08:32:43 AM
Great! Art's suggestion has some merit, but there are a few roundabouts here with pavement along the tram tracks because buses also follow that route straight through the center.


Cheers
Willy
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: romualdillo on February 02, 2016, 10:09:33 AM
It looks gorgeous!!  &apls

Are you going to do all your roundabouts with the tram passing through the center? It's possible to have "normal" roundabouts?. I would like to have the possibility of placing a monument inside it.
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: noahclem on February 03, 2016, 04:26:19 PM
Thanks for all the great feedback guys!

First I wanted to solicit feedback on a problem I had with some tram stops. While the original (LHT) model of the barrier stops has always worked perfectly I got a weird texture discoloration when I tried the newer RHT version. The stops appear perfect when in isolation but when a TIR piece is next to them the lot textures get darker. When a TIR piece is on both sides they seem to get twice as dark.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fh8LvTVP.jpg&hash=12a5f45ae43fe64d3fc9f3842e4298089856acbe)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FGezv8Rj.jpg&hash=6393ba1b183e9c1670045a7d35235424e4943cec)

Anyone have an idea what might cause that? The models are otherwise excellent, just like their LHT counterparts.

And here's the latest on the textures:

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FmXTIQhX.jpg&hash=1b75fa6deeaa8c0a8999229aee0d6bb7bdfba072)

The diagonal intersections still need crosswalks but are otherwise good to go.

Quote from: romualdillo on February 02, 2016, 10:09:33 AM
It looks gorgeous!!  &apls

Are you going to do all your roundabouts with the tram passing through the center? It's possible to have "normal" roundabouts?. I would like to have the possibility of placing a monument inside it.

For these tram-on-street roundabouts the tram will have to go through the center but the textures I made for these will be very easily converted to the SAM roundabout with this same type of textures. Unfortunately these roundabouts don't have space for a lot in the middle so a monument would need to be T21ed to the center or placed using an overhanging lot.

Quote from: Swordmaster on February 02, 2016, 08:32:43 AM
Great! Art's suggestion has some merit, but there are a few roundabouts here with pavement along the tram tracks because buses also follow that route straight through the center.


Cheers
Willy
Quote from: art128 on February 02, 2016, 03:05:26 AM
Wonderful textures. :)

As I mentioned on Skype (Seems you missed it) I think it's more logical of the pavement texture between the rails stops at the start of the inner roundabout for grass. I would also not cut the ring of grey stones.

This is what I meant:

(https://i.imgur.com/t25yOcM.jpg)

Thanks a ton for all your help guys. I need to do some revisiting or variation with these as I think I'm just lacking enough RL examples. Going with a grass version without surrounding sets would mean I would need to sort out how the tram rails over grass should actually look, including the wear beneath the tramways that seems to always be present in those situations. If the center of this kind of small roundabout would also include a way for buses to go through than I would need to widen the pavement enough that they would actually fit. I think I misunderstood the thing about the gray rocks in the middle. I always see roundabouts with some kind of inner area of pavement so large trucks or mistaken drivers don't actually run over grass or whatever is in the middle of the roundabouts. I have all the files saved in a way that these kinds of changes would be easy to make and variations are also a definite possibility.

Quote from: Simcoug on February 02, 2016, 07:44:45 AM
:popcorn:
:thumbsup:

Quote from: kbieniu7 on February 02, 2016, 03:07:57 AM
Wow :shocked2: Fabolous...
Thanks :)

Quote from: Vizoria on February 02, 2016, 01:53:03 AM
Very pretty, you even lightened the curb in places to highlight the lowered curb at pedestrian crossings.
Thanks a lot--glad you noticed that detail!

Quote from: Gugu3 on February 02, 2016, 01:08:12 AM
Great stuff :thumbsup:
Thanks!

Quote from: mgb204 on February 01, 2016, 10:47:25 PM
This just keeps getting better  &apls

I wouldn't have a use for such textures myself, but here mixed in with Romaualdillo's bats everything is just so :). Glad you are still pushing on with this project, it's a whole new level of quality for GLR.
Thanks Robin! Glad to keep having your strong support!

Quote from: reddonquixote on February 01, 2016, 10:33:58 PM
Wow, that looks fantastic - great work  :thumbsup: &apls &apls
Thanks a lot Jay! Really appreciated :)

Quote from: Simmer2 on February 01, 2016, 09:21:11 PM
Magnificent  &apls &apls
Thank you very much :)
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: Swordmaster on February 03, 2016, 05:01:51 PM
Great progress of which I'm very happy to be in the firing line  :satisfied:

Good to see those pesky diagonals are up. I'd also be happy to provide RL examples though you know Antwerp tramways have their own particulars--ballast seems ever present when not on pavement.


Cheers
Willy
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: Simmer2 on February 03, 2016, 05:32:59 PM
I just love HD!! Excellent work Noah  &apls &apls
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: Gugu3 on February 04, 2016, 01:09:33 AM
Excellent!
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: kbieniu7 on February 04, 2016, 05:07:43 AM
For RL examples of tram tracks in grass, the best is to look at France. Their tramway systems are not just the transport network - they seem to be the art as well.

Here you have a small piece of grass (that seems not to do too well):
https://www.google.pl/maps/@43.6143893,3.8815183,3a,88.8y,268.26h,66.33t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1srbTbOUpO4SFxc0tG0qp7lg!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DrbTbOUpO4SFxc0tG0qp7lg%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D68.091286%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=pl

A big roundabout with full grass:
https://www.google.pl/maps/@43.6018213,3.9004022,3a,75y,35.94h,72.6t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sOWkt6fCBXNklc14iUE7kbQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo2.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DOWkt6fCBXNklc14iUE7kbQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D35.875782%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=pl

A roundabout, where you have neither grass nor pavement:
https://www.google.pl/maps/@43.6194743,3.8695311,3a,89.7y,337.85h,74.04t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sOeWQzxkJUn4yGMU0Wf67hg!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo2.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DOeWQzxkJUn4yGMU0Wf67hg%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D53.696541%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=pl

I think, that Arthur may find more examples from his own "neighbourhood" :)

In Poland, even though it's became much more popular to make green tracks, no one would care about such small piece of grass. We will just pave it (such a pity!) For smiliar reason, I think there's no big point in making a corridor for buses - it's not a big intersection, that's a small roundabout somewhere on minor streets. Imagine, how little of grass will be left there, if we decide to pave it for busses? In such case, if we need to make it more compatible for big vehicles, I think everything would be paved with the middle island just painted.

So, to sum up: for me, if we talk about the middle island, there are two options - full grass and no grass (paved). Conditions different from 0 or 1 are not applicable in a roundabout so small :)

Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: romualdillo on February 04, 2016, 07:27:48 AM
 :bnn: :bnn: :bnn: :bnn:
(yes, it's a stupid comment, but that's how I feel now)
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: Kergelen on February 05, 2016, 08:48:56 AM
Wonderful textures and tram stations &apls
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: manga rivotra on February 05, 2016, 11:26:28 AM
Your textures are really superb ! and about the roundabout question, i fully agree with kbieniu7 opinion when he said :
QuoteSo, to sum up: for me, if we talk about the middle island, there are two options - full grass and no grass (paved). Conditions different from 0 or 1 are not applicable in a roundabout so small :)
I just want to add that having the two types of roundabout in our Plugins'folder would be perfect  ;D
Thanks for you great work  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: Swordmaster on February 10, 2016, 08:05:01 PM
Some missing links in the Tram-on-Street network. . . Textures by Noah (obviously), coding by myself.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F8JphyQ1.jpg&hash=084553ff27015fc6c5d349d80f836419005c4575)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fgq059wm.jpg&hash=ddb3f70e37d8a0b459f608e1b7ff8cedbd87757e)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FVz1AD9e.jpg&hash=7ad103e2ccd8467bbaef8ad0151e8d484f13d64d)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FHVGtled.jpg&hash=2f3549b5b9a09ac783889df2e4eb27dfb3d03adf)


Yes, all these are draggable. :bnn:


Cheers
Willy
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: Gugu3 on February 11, 2016, 01:24:25 AM
Really???This is gorgeous!
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: Themistokles on February 11, 2016, 05:09:07 AM
Beautiful! &apls
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: Simcoug on February 11, 2016, 05:24:11 AM
 &dance
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: bombardiere on February 16, 2016, 02:20:41 PM
I am a latecomer to this thread but this is fantastic.
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: woodb3kmaster on February 19, 2016, 11:52:16 PM
Those GLR textures are fantastic! They're just the sort of quality I had hoped to achieve in my planned remake of the original GLR textures (the grey ones, if you're unsure which ones I mean). I'm especially glad to see third-rail variants, as I'm one of those players who prefer to use GLR as a metro-like network. I'd love to collaborate on this project if you're interested in adding another texture set.
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: noahclem on February 20, 2016, 06:23:07 PM
Thanks a lot for all the feedback guys--and especially to Willy for his fantastic work making the wilder dreams of this project suddenly within easy reach ;)

Special welcome to bombardiere and woodb3kmaster :)

Quote from: woodb3kmaster on February 19, 2016, 11:52:16 PM
Those GLR textures are fantastic! They're just the sort of quality I had hoped to achieve in my planned remake of the original GLR textures (the grey ones, if you're unsure which ones I mean). I'm especially glad to see third-rail variants, as I'm one of those players who prefer to use GLR as a metro-like network. I'd love to collaborate on this project if you're interested in adding another texture set.

I've not really been pursuing the 3rd rail style beyond basic proof of concept, having instead focused on the massively time-intensive HD RRW style rural GLR, but it would be a nice feature to have that I'm sure many would find useful. You're certainly welcome to collaborate, whether expanding on the existing styles I've been working on or doing your own variant. If it's something you'd like to do I could give you read access to all the development files, which I keep on MS onedrive, and add a sub-folder there for your work with read/write access for you. There's tons of layered .xcf files in there (I use GIMP) and you're welcome to borrow any of the elements in there, like rails for example, for use in any of your own projects :)

On that note, anyone else interested in collaborating or just wanting access to all the dev files for their own purposes is more than welcome. Note this is not the same as getting access to alpha versions of the mod, which I'm also happy to make available on request--iirc the dev files are at least a GB of less than perfectly organized .xcfs with layers separated as well as all the .pngs that actually make up the current state of the mod. A full alpha version with all HD textures takes up only a fraction of that space.

No progress to report for the moment, have been trying to focus on school with free sc4 time spent playing the game with some time using PIMX and lotting.
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: woodb3kmaster on February 20, 2016, 07:22:40 PM
Quote from: noahclem on February 20, 2016, 06:23:07 PM
I've not really been pursuing the 3rd rail style beyond basic proof of concept, having instead focused on the massively time-intensive HD RRW style rural GLR, but it would be a nice feature to have that I'm sure many would find useful. You're certainly welcome to collaborate, whether expanding on the existing styles I've been working on or doing your own variant. If it's something you'd like to do I could give you read access to all the development files, which I keep on MS onedrive, and add a sub-folder there for your work with read/write access for you. There's tons of layered .xcf files in there (I use GIMP) and you're welcome to borrow any of the elements in there, like rails for example, for use in any of your own projects :)
That would be fantastic - and certainly more than I had hoped for! Thanks for being so willing to share your dev files! I look forward to getting a direct behind-the-scenes look at how you've made these amazing textures. :)
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: Swordmaster on February 20, 2016, 07:52:55 PM
Going in Noah's dev folders? This is how you should dress, Zack:

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.matisec.com%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fimagecache%2Fproduit_zoom%2Fproduits%2Fulm.jpg&hash=64a031ddb6ef5e666c7faa462ce1a679b7d5c3ed)


:laugh:


Cheers
Willy
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: vester on February 21, 2016, 07:33:06 AM
 :D

You could say the same on some of my folders.


Great work Noah.
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: vinlabsc3k on March 28, 2016, 02:02:24 AM
Wow Noah it's a great idea and achievement, :o but I think that would be best to use the new standard for the rails
with the normal road texture and the RRW-like one for the rural setups or alternative to grassy traffic divider.
Maybe you can offer a texture replacement set in a separate download. ()what()
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: noahclem on October 24, 2016, 11:59:22 AM
I've been back working on this project in the last week or so and managed to knock out a few things I'd been avoiding for a long time. Redoing the TIA "Y" intersection and the GLR turn off from diagonal TIA are a couple of those and creating diagonal TIA stations from Arthur's models are the biggest projects but I've also done a bunch of diagonal intersection textures and other gap-filling, RD6 work, and lot texture work, as well as doing all the most commonly used SAM cobblestone textures to match the tram-on-street textures I've done (based on Erik's stone lot textures).

Here's the new "Y" piece alongside a couple of Arthur's stops (scene is from the city center of my MD):
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FP1nBIH5.jpg&hash=842c2c7ad0f368e1d6d2ea5597fdfb7f1232f76c)


Diagonal TIA with light rail turning off, also featuring Arthur's stop and also from my city center, near the water front:
click
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F91AFP6s.jpg&hash=1ae86fbb3370b1905a25c87992ee591c74cc33dd)


New SAM cobblestone with roundabout, nearby ToS, and RD6. Taken within a couple blocks of the first picture:
click
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F9BHAN9T.jpg&hash=bc237387cc9f0c7b50ec8683181de26cda818b36)


Quote from: vinlabsc3k on March 28, 2016, 02:02:24 AM
Wow Noah it's a great idea and achievement, :o but I think that would be best to use the new standard for the rails
with the normal road texture and the RRW-like one for the rural setups or alternative to grassy traffic divider.
Maybe you can offer a texture replacement set in a separate download. ()what()


I want to offer as much choice, flexibility, and variety as I'm able, and have been talking with Stephen and Robin about how to best implement this mod to meet as many users' desires as we can. Because of the size of things and my speed and time I don't expect to be able to do everything people would like. I do expect my default rural GLR to be based on RRW textures--I think that would be the most popular way and it's also a lot easier than continuing with the from scratch, HD rural GLR textures I made though it's possible I'll make that an option or separate mod eventually. I definitely expect to offer a version of this that doesn't change avenue and NWM widths like I've been doing. Versions of the TIA, TOR, TIR, and TOS based on the original textures and geometry but with RRW gauge are not things I plan on doing although perhaps someone else might. For me the more consistent lane widths and wider rail turning radii are an integral part of the mod just like gauge and turning radii were to RRW.

One thing in particular I'm looking for feedback on: Should the default for TIR and TOR be stone pavers or asphalt like they have been? I'm tending to prefer the pavers although they're more difficult to work with and my current set of asphalt is significantly larger than my set with stone.

And one final thing: I've been having trouble with the game sometimes not showing my replacement lot overlay textures which seems to very with zoom and also more randomly. It's happening both for transit-enabled and non-TE lots. Anyone have an idea of how I might fix that? They're 256px textures but plenty of other people have made those and had them work just fine. Help would be very much appreciated!
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: art128 on October 24, 2016, 12:34:30 PM
Great to see my stops put to good use. :)
And nice to see they fit perfectly between the rails and the avenue!

BTW the tiles on the tram path in the second picture (on the straight line), I like them more than the original texture you have for the rest.
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: Vizoria on October 24, 2016, 04:44:55 PM
Hell yeah that's some cool tram track! The amount of high quality HD road/rail/tram/RHW textures and pieces I have seen in these last couple of months is remarkable.
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: mgb204 on October 24, 2016, 06:28:16 PM
Quote from: noahclem on October 24, 2016, 11:59:22 AM
One thing in particular I'm looking for feedback on: Should the default for TIR and TOR be stone pavers or asphalt like they have been? I'm tending to prefer the pavers although they're more difficult to work with and my current set of asphalt is significantly larger than my set with stone.

And one final thing: I've been having trouble with the game sometimes not showing my replacement lot overlay textures which seems to very with zoom and also more randomly. It's happening both for transit-enabled and non-TE lots. Anyone have an idea of how I might fix that? They're 256px textures but plenty of other people have made those and had them work just fine. Help would be very much appreciated!

I prefer the pavers personally.

As for the LE textures, which stations exactly are giving you problems? I'm trying to remember exactly what I did when I came across this same problem. But it sounds like duplicate textures, are you using PNG2FSH batch per-chance? There was a recent update to fix a bug which prevented some textures from being correctly identified by SC4 as either base or overlay textures. Load them up in PIM-X and check they are where you'd expect them to be. And if you haven't, get the latest update of PNGtoFSH. Otherwise, feel free to PM me, I'll take a look at it for you.
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: APSMS on October 24, 2016, 08:58:39 PM
Quote from: noahclem on October 24, 2016, 11:59:22 AM
One thing in particular I'm looking for feedback on: Should the default for TIR and TOR be stone pavers or asphalt like they have been? I'm tending to prefer the pavers although they're more difficult to work with and my current set of asphalt is significantly larger than my set with stone.
That depends. I wouldn't mind having the pavers for the TIR network (2-lane road), but I prefer the TOR to stay asphalt, as this facilitates the more urban, mid-century America that I try to capture in my cities (it doesn't necessarily work out, but it does work better). Of course, I'm not typically recreating European or old American cities, and the amount of Cobblestone in my inevitably California-style cities is woefully low (limited to quaint downtowns and such where the stuff was trucked in for effect--old California streets are just dirt).

I assume, btw, that the difference you're referring to is the area where the tracks sit? (As opposed to the area where the cars drive). To me having a cobblestone road (other than the TIS network, which really needs Willy's implementation to be integrated) really limits the versatility of the network/texture override since I suspect even European cities are expanding or rebuilding tram lines into concrete or asphalt roads, rather than laying them into cobblestone again. A SAM-like implementation is obv. out of the question. Of course, you should do what interests you, but since you asked, and in the name of user adoption...

I definitely prefer your cobblestone streets to the version we currently have in the SAM. The directionality of that network kills it for me, but yours are very nice indeed. I couldn't use it as a direct override, but it would very nicely replace the current SAM set.
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: Gugu3 on October 26, 2016, 01:43:40 AM
Nice development!I like the light rail texture &apls
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: kelis on October 27, 2016, 03:50:50 AM
 &apls &apls &apls &apls &apls

I will say it again, our game is gonna change with this project, your textures looks amazing my friend, they are very realistic   :o :o
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: Simmer2 on October 27, 2016, 06:59:31 AM
Fantastic!! &apls
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: Ernestmaxis on October 28, 2016, 09:30:19 AM
Some very well made textures for the trams I really like the color. I thought there was a hold up with this project.
The coble Sam-roads are cool to but i rather prefer extra Sams then overlayers would that be possible?:)

Thanks :)  If I understand the system correctly it shouldn't be difficult to implement as an additional SAM as opposed to an override. There are 16 spaces reserved for SAM with half of them just sitting unactivated normally. The logic to having it as a replacement is based on the tram-on-street textures, which currently match the SAM cobble textures, being changed and then the old cobbled textures being changed so the two networks still match. Keeping the old version available should be a doable thing if people want it.

-Noah
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: tomvsotis on November 15, 2016, 03:33:32 PM
Hey, i'm teaching myself SC4 modding in my spare time, and today I triumphantly worked out how to override the standard white Maxis tram-in-avenue base texture with my own red brick version. My glee lasted all of about five seconds, though, once I realized what a hideous amount of work it was going to be altering ALL the tram/tram-in-avenue/tram-in-road textures to match. So, um, I'm wondering: any idea when this might be released? It looks wonderful, and my appetite for doing a whole set of new textures on my own has ... dampened somewhat <3
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: mgb204 on November 15, 2016, 04:03:49 PM
Quote from: tomvsotis on November 15, 2016, 03:33:32 PM
Hey, i'm teaching myself SC4 modding in my spare time, and today I triumphantly worked out how to override the standard white Maxis tram-in-avenue base texture with my own red brick version. My glee lasted all of about five seconds, though, once I realized what a hideous amount of work it was going to be altering ALL the tram/tram-in-avenue/tram-in-road textures to match. So, um, I'm wondering: any idea when this might be released? It looks wonderful, and my appetite for doing a whole set of new textures on my own has ... dampened somewhat <3

If you just want to alter the outsides or "sidewalk" parts, take a look at my Automated Sidewalk Texturing thread (http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=16938.0). There are tools to do this for you using automation, with just a few clicks. Otherwise, the entire GLR repository is there for you, which will save a lot of work.
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: tomvsotis on November 15, 2016, 05:18:54 PM
Oh wow! This is amazing and I look forward greatly to playing around with it. Thank you!!
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: noahclem on November 15, 2016, 06:01:45 PM
Thanks for your interest and compliment tomvsotis  :thumbsup:  Learning to mod is challenging, doubtless more so when trying to teach yourself. Ryan's suggestions are great and his repository has been very helpful for finding trxtures easily.

I can't really say as my work tends to go through hard pushes followed by time doing something else. My working version is good enough for me to play on as I finish but I wouldn't recommend it for most people, though I do make it available on request. I would really like to get something close to a beta by the end of the year but that's a very ambitious timescale. If you are interested in wprking with me on the textures that would be great. We could even do pieces with options for a color variant you would like at the same time we work on new ones--but there are tons of textures already made. Anyway, let me know if I can help you with your work and if you want to help with mine that would be great.
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: tomvsotis on November 15, 2016, 06:22:08 PM
Ooh, if it is available, I'd love a copy of it? From the images you've posted, it certainly looks like it'd fit beautifully with my city, even if it's not in a finished state - and i'm sure it'd be of help for me to look at how you've put it together.

And certainly, I'd love to help. I'm pretty good with Photoshop, if that's any use!
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: noahclem on November 15, 2016, 06:50:12 PM
Happy to make a copy available though I don't have a one "packaged" right now or anything. I have a shared work folder on onedrive/skydrive/whatever MS is calling it now that I can give you access to if it would be helpful (it also contains all the files you need though it might be helpful for me to explain how to use them). I use GIMP myself but wouldn't expect compatibility issues too significant. I have a set of standards I make things to and techniques that have been the most effective for me, both of which I'm happy to pass on. If it seems like too much hassle or not your thing you're welcome to just enjoy the files but you'd be most welcome if you think you can contribute to this standard--incredibly welcome, really :D  Using Robin's repositories of textures will help find the remaining ones to be done and if we can get through this faster than expected that's a huge bonus! There's also station work that will be a significant amount of the remaining effort but you don't have to worry about any of that unless you want to (not too difficult to do but difficult to figure out how to do correctly--especially if tram station geometry at intersections is something we try to tackle before the first, basic release). Anyway, I'll PM you with my shared folder in the morning, probably just with read access until you decide that you want to use write access. Cheers  :squirrel:
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: APSMS on November 15, 2016, 09:57:31 PM
Quote from: noahclem on November 15, 2016, 06:01:45 PM
Thanks for your interest and compliment tomvsotis  :thumbsup:  Learning to mod is challenging, doubtless more so when trying to teach yourself. Ryan's suggestions are great and his repository has been very helpful for finding trxtures easily.
Who's Ryan?

Also, a BETA in December or January would be ambitious indeed. I'm just hoping you have enough time to work on this that it makes it into NAM 37 (as an alternate or not). You don't head south for the winter, do you?
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: noahclem on November 15, 2016, 11:19:22 PM
Oh sorry, I meant to write "Robin". Yeah it would be difficult to finish that fast but having at least the non-rul-based portion done by then would be awesome. And help is lined up for that area.
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: Simmer2 on November 16, 2016, 06:38:16 AM
Hello Noa.
I'm glad to hear you are still pursuing your ambitious project and as I have pledged before you went MIA, I'm still game regarding helping you with textures.
Shoot me a PM listing what is left to be done and I will do what I can to help.

Nick
Title: Re: NORO Trams and Textures
Post by: tomvsotis on November 16, 2016, 11:28:29 AM
Quote from: noahclem on November 15, 2016, 06:50:12 PM
Happy to make a copy available though I don't have a one "packaged" right now or anything. I have a shared work folder on onedrive/skydrive/whatever MS is calling it now that I can give you access to if it would be helpful (it also contains all the files you need though it might be helpful for me to explain how to use them). I use GIMP myself but wouldn't expect compatibility issues too significant. I have a set of standards I make things to and techniques that have been the most effective for me, both of which I'm happy to pass on. If it seems like too much hassle or not your thing you're welcome to just enjoy the files but you'd be most welcome if you think you can contribute to this standard--incredibly welcome, really :D  Using Robin's repositories of textures will help find the remaining ones to be done and if we can get through this faster than expected that's a huge bonus! There's also station work that will be a significant amount of the remaining effort but you don't have to worry about any of that unless you want to (not too difficult to do but difficult to figure out how to do correctly--especially if tram station geometry at intersections is something we try to tackle before the first, basic release). Anyway, I'll PM you with my shared folder in the morning, probably just with read access until you decide that you want to use write access. Cheers  :squirrel:
Fantastic, looking fwd to receiving it. I'll have a look and see what i might be able to make a useful contribution to.