Question on New/Existing Regions, Eternal Commuters, and Industrial Demand

[RippleJet]

Since I didn't programme the simulators for SC4 I cannot say 100% what would work and what wouldn't.

Generally spoken though, common sense usually helps a lot.
And checking the demand graphs is good common sense.

Would this actually work?

I wouldn't take such drastic measures...
Maybe you could build another suburb linking to Pittsfield from the other end with less educated people...
And later on see if CO§§ and I-HT would start to grow in Allerton.

[xxdita]

Just out of curiosity, I just made my own 2 city region with the same basics, using CAM 1.0.
First, I set up my Industrial City (small tile), fully watered, and connected it to a med tile to the north. As there were no workers in the region at this point, there was very little growth, but still roughly 1200 or so jobs. Added a Waste To Enegy Plant to help dispose of the next city's trash.

Then I saved & started my Res & Com city in the med tile. With the game on pause, I set up some Res & Com zones, provided water, police, fire, hospital, schools a college, and even threw in some parks. Res growth was solid, but C didn't develop at all, because of the jobs available in the neighboring city. After Res seemed to max out for a bit, I saved and switched back to the IND city.


Upon opening it, growth was through the roof, but then came the pollution, which would pretty much prevent IHD from developing. With this just being a test, I kicked in RaphaelNinja's Radical Ordinance mod to get rid of the pollution, added a couple of parks, and IHT began growing nicely.


Back to Res/Com - Demand is once again through the roof, especially for C now. So I added some C zoning, watered it, and had some nice growth.


With all of the new jobs available, R demand went crazy, so I added a rather large block of Res zones, which filled up quickly, mostly with R$$


Meanwhile, in IND... there's now enough demand to fill the city with Industial, so that's what I did.




So really, specialized cities ARE possible, even from the beginning. It's just a matter of switching back and forth between cities to allow growth for each, almost simultaneously, which, with a massive plugins folder, can be time-consuming. It also has to be done paying attention to the needs of your population.

It should be noted that I did use my own mod on top of CAM (which I forgot to remove from my plugins before starting). It doesn't actually raise demand, only the possible demand, to allow for much faster growth. Otherwise, this test would have taken much longer though. The only plops used were civic, utility & parks.

So Landwalker, I'm thinking that maybe you need to switch between your cities a little more frequently, and make sure you're supplying enough of the wanted jobs for your Sims. Since you are starting a region with a specific plan in place, just be patient and let it grow. Everything should balance out in time, as long as you're a good, diligent Mayor.

[Landwalker]

xxdita:  During the early development, I switch back and forth quite a bit, for exactly the reason you mention, so that shouldn't be causing any problems.  What is your city's education level / data view?  How are you getting people not to abandon their jobs for, well, joblessness?  I've always attempted to accomodate the "new job levels" by throwing up some I-HT in my "home city" (the predominantly R-C one), but it always has trouble developing even with huge demand and large numbers of unemployed, highly-educated people.

I assumed this was because business in general doesn't develop when there is a high level of joblessness, which was in turn created by them abandoning their jobs in the first place, but given the outrageous levels of job vacancy in your census reports, that must not be the problem.

I did, at least, manage to also eliminate city specialization as the main source of the problem in my own tests--I threw together another light-density town, but this time kept the dirty industry inside the city limits, and otherwise proceeded as usual (thus, I had only the one city).  Everything went fine until I decided it was time to bring in the rich folk and plunked down a college and museum off to one side of the city, and then the same old problems started up--R$$$ and R$$ getting some learning, ditching their jobs, and then griping about not being able to find anything better (nevermind that something like a third of my commercial jobs were CO$$$), even when I built more commercial areas and even zoned some high-tech industry (made possible by the complete collapse of I-D and I-M demand in the wake of education), then subsequently abandoning their homes and leaving sizable swaths of my city rather bleak and such.  I'm seriously starting to consider just bulldozing the entire "old industry" sector and seeing if that gets them off their butts, because I simply do not know what to do.

Cheers.

[xxdita]

Education was 200, rather extreme, I know, but suits the purposes of the test. What is your Commute Time looking like? Check your traffic Data View as well. A couple screenshots would help me figure it all out. And what difficulty are you playing on? My test was using Easy.

[Landwalker]

Difficulty: Easy.
Commute Time:  A little over "4" (whatever that is).
Congestion:  None to speak of.




Here's a general view of the southwest corner of the city.  Most of the houses you can see are abandoned.  You can also see a bit of the tech parks I put up. 


I disconnected the city from all of its neighboring cities (I had created a couple to try to respond to the problems--one a medium-density R-C to try to satisfy the demand for commercial, the other a low-education mid-density residential to try to fill the "low industrial" jobs back in Testopolis, but they were unsuccessful), leading to a spike down in I-D and I-M demand, so I filled in the rest of the upper Tech Park (which finally started developing shortly after this shot).  The R$$$ abandoned houses are making a bit of a comeback, but all of the R$$ ones are mostly still abandoned.  Perhaps continuing to add will eventually solve the problem.  However, if this is the case, that means that my neighbor connections were a major contributing factor to the problem--which seems senseless to me, because they were created after the problem as an attempt to solve it.

Anyway, I need some sleep.  I'm sure I'll be back tomorrow with more questions to reveal my ineptitude.   

Cheers.

[RippleJet]

Commute Time:  A little over "4" (whatever that is).

That would be well over four hours of commute time, which is insane.
Have you tried to route query your residential buildings to see where they are actually working?
What traffic plugin are you using?

Also, what reason do the abandoned buildings give for the abandonment?
Long commute?

[xxdita]

A commute time of 4 is good. You're using the Promote Biking Pathfinder? and there's no congestion to speak of, so that's not the problem.
I think you need some more Commercial zones. This looks like a good place for it:


Start there, and as the number of jobs rises, more of your Sims will find jobs. And let me just repeat what RippleJet said, take a look at the Workforce Drives (Demand of Occupation) found here:
http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=1878.0

A good majority of your highly educated Sims are demanding Commercial Jobs. So the only way to keep them happy is to give them what they want. The Workforce Drives were also included in your CAM Manual, and the exact number can be seen in your Census Repository data. It's all there for a reason.

[Shadow Assassin]

That would be well over four hours of commute time, which is insane.

Actually, it's not four hours per se. It depends on what speed that you have it set to.

[SC4BOY]

Since I didn't programme the simulators for SC4 I cannot say 100% what would work and what wouldn't.

I bet those who DID can't answer that question with authority either..

[Landwalker]

RippleJet:  I don't think it's four hours, because it doesn't seem problematic.  I'm only using NAM ("Radical Custom Special") and CAM (Promote Biking) as far as traffic-affecting plugins go.  I've done plenty of route-queries, and most people are working reasonably close-by (in the sense that at a mediumish zoom level I can see both the house and the place of employment).  The abandoned buildings always list "Long Commute" as the excuse, but since that is also the message received when a house simply can't get a job at all, I've gotten to the point where I largely assume that "Boo Hoo Long Commute" means "Boo Hoo there's nowhere for me to work" since, again, the commute itself never seems to be a problem.

Actually, it's not four hours per se. It depends on what speed that you have it set to.

Before my next series of tests, a question:  Exactly how do you know what "speed" (or time increment, or whatever) is being used for Commute Time?  Without knowing whether the "4" is hours, minutes, or whatever, how is one supposed to know whether you have a good or bad commute time (aside from being able to tell that there is little congestion and that people seem to have no trouble getting to work--it's just getting work that they're incapable of).

Another question:  Disconnecting Testopolis from all of its surrounding cities (bar empty tiles, for the sake of commercial and industrial development caps and appeal) seems to have significantly helped.  If this is the case, and connecting to nearby cities wrecks havoc on the state of the "main city" (in this case, Testopolis), doesn't that ruin the appeal of region play as a whole?  "If I connect to my neighbor, I'm going to be wracked with unemployment and lose huge amounts of R$$$ and R$$ citizens, no matter what the conditions of that neighbor actually are." (In the case of Testopolis, those neighbors were an R$ mid-density town (to try to fill the I-D and I-M jobs in Testopolis, which they thoroughly failed at) and a mid-density R-C town (to try to get some larger commercial buildings to accomodate demand in Testopolis--which, again, was an unmitigated failure).)

I want to try to meet the commercial demands of Testopolis, but there is already a large amount of commercial development in the city (both sides of the avenues (which you can identify in the traffic congestion image) are lined with low-density commerce, much of which is Commercial Office), and I don't want to have to bring in medium-density anything to a city with a population of less than 30,000 people, but I also don't think that a town of such a small size should have "isolated" commercial development and instead stick with simply developing along the major roadways (i.e. along the avenues, except in the polluting industrial area, and at a couple of significant road intersections--although the rectangle circled by xxdita is already taken up by I-HT zoning, the roads on either side of it (one of which goes to the avenue on the left, the other bends down to intersect with another road that bisects a mostly-residential area in the center of the map) carry commercial development as well.).  Unfortunately this seems to equate to "not nearly enough commercial development" which, again, simply seems out of sync with any realistic development I'm familiar with.


(1) High-Tech Industry
(2) Dirty and Manufacturing Industry
(3) High-Wealth Residential Neighborhood.

Perhaps I'm being unreasonable, but I don't think that medium-density development (barring industry, for which it is necessary) is really appropriate for a town that's maybe a quarter the size of Athens, Georgia (my home town, which has no medium-density anything development except for small apartments largely dedicated to housing University of Georgia students).  In my mind, the ultimate goal is having areas like Testopolis on the "outer ring", then medium-density Residential and Commercial development in the "inner ring", then high-density predominantly commercial development in the "bull's-eye", whither those in the "rings" will commute for their jobs (eventually via highway or some other expedient means).

Cheers.

[flame1396]

I'm only using NAM ("Radical Custom Special") and CAM (Promote Biking) as far as traffic-affecting plugins go.

You're supposed to edit the Radical Custom Special to values you want. Unless you did that, it's running base-game speeds which is what the Radical Custom Special contains by default.

[Landwalker]

You're supposed to edit the Radical Custom Special to values you want. Unless you did that, it's running base-game speeds which is what the Radical Custom Special contains by default.

And where/how, exactly, does one do this?  In the NAM Installation, RCS is one of the options under Traffic Plugins (along with things like Standard, Commute 5x, Speed 10x, Perfect Pathfinding, and the like), stating that it significantly improves pathfinding and commute allowance (which I take to mean the amount of commute a sim will tolerate), possibly among other things (I've finally managed to betake myself to the library to try to get some work done), but says nothing, if I remember correctly, about travel speed.  I assumed, then, that the RCS was simply an amalgamation of several of the traffic plugin options pertaining to commute and pathfinding (since, on installation, you can't pick more than one, i.e. can't choose both Perfect Pathfinding and Commute x10, or whatever) in order to "optimize" (or whatever) the choice.

Cheers.

[RippleJet]

Regardless which pathfinding you installed in NAM, it will be superseded by the Promote Biking (or any other pathfinding) included in the CAM.
This is the reason for the z_CAM folder, where the optional pathfinding is installed.

Perhaps I'm being unreasonable, but I don't think that medium-density development (barring industry, for which it is necessary) is really appropriate for a town that's maybe a quarter the size of Athens, Georgia (my home town, which has no medium-density anything development except for small apartments largely dedicated to housing University of Georgia students).  In my mind, the ultimate goal is having areas like Testopolis on the "outer ring", then medium-density Residential and Commercial development in the "inner ring", then high-density predominantly commercial development in the "bull's-eye", whither those in the "rings" will commute for their jobs (eventually via highway or some other expedient means).

I think you actually should zone medium density residential zones somewhere, in areas where the suburb's centre will be...
It's not the city's population that sets the thresholds for which growth stages will grow... it's the regional capacities.

With a regional residential capacity of 75,000 your region has reached a size where residentials primarily want to develop into growth stages 4-7.
And those won't grow in low density zones...

[Landwalker]

Regardless which pathfinding you installed in NAM, it will be superseded by the Promote Biking (or any other pathfinding) included in the CAM.
This is the reason for the z_CAM folder, where the optional pathfinding is installed.

Fair 'nuff.  I don't think this has anything to do with the problem anyway, since commute seems to be a non-factor.

I think you actually should zone medium density residential zones somewhere, in areas where the suburb's centre will be...
It's not the city's population that sets the thresholds for which growth stages will grow... it's the regional capacities.  With a regional residential capacity of 75,000 your region has reached a size where residentials primarily want to develop into growth stages 4-7.
And those won't grow in low density zones...

Incidentally, when I tried to develop my mid-density areas in the adjacent R-C and R-Uneducated cities I mentioned earlier, I almost never got any "mid-stage" residential growth.  I got some small apartments, but nothing larger than that except for R$$$ (Packard Apartments, Hyde Condos, and whatever the one that's very similar to Hyde Condos is), and even those were relatively few and far between.  Most of the mid-density residential zones either didn't develop at all, or developed normal low-stage housing.  This may be because they were in neighboring cities (which, at the time, were connected to Testopolis and each other), but if it's dependent on regional population, that shouldn't have made a difference. 

Either way, I'm not sure what zoning mid-density residential in the suburb itself would achieve.  I have a hard enough time getting what residents I do have (at least on the higher end of the economic spectrum) employed, even with considerable I-HT and CO developments (which is, at present, the main problem, I think, not one of resident shortage).  Testopolis is supposed to be on the "outer ring" I mentioned earlier--not even on the same scale as Athens, but more like Falmouth, Maine--a very low-density, but medium-and-high-wealth-heavy, suburb of Maine's largest city, Portland.

I'm starting to wonder if it's perhaps my "outside-in" approach that's contributing to the problem.  After all, it would be more realistic to build inside-out (it's not like Portland developed after Falmouth, after all, which is what my current approach would have happening).  What I should probably try next is starting the "bull's-eye" off as a town, build it up in a comparable manner (with perhaps less education) than Testopolis, but then, once it reaches whatever threshold, start "renovating" the town, again from the inside out, with medium-density development, then moving outwards to create neighboring "suburbs" (which, later, will have satellite suburbs of their own and themselves become medium-density extensions of the original center-town, which will ultimately rise into the CBD).

I'm sure I'm incredibly frustrating for y'all with my rambling and evident ineptitude, and I'd like to end this post by pointing out how much I appreciate the help you've been providing.

Cheers.

[RippleJet]

I'd like to end this post by pointing out how much I appreciate the help you've been providing.

Thanks, Landwalker!

I think we're all learning from this, and I think you will be learning from all mistakes made as well.
The first region I built with CAM was definitely not the best one...
each new region I've started has always been better than any previous ones...

Remember to rotate between your cities and play them all once in a while.
And keep your eyes on the demand bars before deciding what to do next.

And let the simulator take its time. Rome wasn't built in a day!

[flame1396]

And where/how, exactly, does one do this?  In the NAM Installation, RCS is one of the options under Traffic Plugins (along with things like Standard, Commute 5x, Speed 10x, Perfect Pathfinding, and the like), stating that it significantly improves pathfinding and commute allowance (which I take to mean the amount of commute a sim will tolerate), possibly among other things (I've finally managed to betake myself to the library to try to get some work done), but says nothing, if I remember correctly, about travel speed.  I assumed, then, that the RCS was simply an amalgamation of several of the traffic plugin options pertaining to commute and pathfinding (since, on installation, you can't pick more than one, i.e. can't choose both Perfect Pathfinding and Commute x10, or whatever) in order to "optimize" (or whatever) the choice.

Cheers.

Use a program like iLive's Reader. And as far as I could tell, the file contained base values (at least for capacity)

[xxdita]

I've found two approached that work really well. You can either start with what will eventually be your CBD, and grow out from there, or you can start in the corners, working inwards. When starting with corners, I zone a lot of Agricultural land, for the rural effect, then as my region develops with suburbs, county seats, and a solid downtown I go back and demolish the early staged farms so that higher stages can grow.

[SC4BOY]

hmmm.. I rarely zone dense zone in residences.. I have level 11's growing in my cities.. in fact stopping the BOOM outstripping my ability to supply support is a constant fight.. I have a lot of dense commercial, but frankly I think i probably screwed taht up.. i probably didn't need higher than medium.. I have one small area of dense res where I got 3 BAM BAM HKBAT residences pop up with 40000 R$'s.. Now I'm trying to be sure they can get to work and stuff.. everything is working at 300+% capacities for now .. hehe

[xxdita]

SC4boy, hopefully some of those network congestions will be helped out with the upcoming network mods by JPlumbley and Mott. It can be a traffic nightmare when a Stage 15 R$ develops on the street it's zoned with. Even worse with a Stage 14 or 15 R$$$, who all but refuse to use mass transit.