SC4 Devotion Forum Archives

SimCity 4 General Discussion and Tutorials => SimCity 4 General Discussion => Topic started by: RippleJet on April 02, 2008, 05:03:20 PM

Title: Ploppables with Jobs and Residents. Why not?
Post by: RippleJet on April 02, 2008, 05:03:20 PM
This was previously discussed in a thread called How to control buildings to grow? (http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=3036.msg94888#msg94888)
Since those posts will be forgotten when memory fades, I decided to move the essential information into here.
If you have questions about functional ploppable landmarks, please feel free to continue the discussion.






Why we should refrain from plopping functional landmarks

The city shown below is from a region with just two equally sized, very small towns:

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg507.imageshack.us%2Fimg507%2F6646%2Fdontplopsmallcity01bb4.jpg&hash=055592f019a54f3042a5c76ed45a60e3d0e1ae73)

This city, as well as its neighbour, has a well balanced supply and demand of work and residential homes.
The reported regional residential capacity is 564, and there is a demand for almost every RCI type.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg408.imageshack.us%2Fimg408%2F5788%2Fdontplopsmallcity02li1.jpg&hash=8fb46fef623fc22236dab92aa006fe205866817d)

Now, let's say the mayor of this town decided he wanted to speed up its development.
He knows nothing about the simulation of real life, but that cannot be that important...
He is very much interested in being able to say when and where a skyscraper should be built though...

Thus, he calls for some extra moolah, picks a site and plops a tower:

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg524.imageshack.us%2Fimg524%2F86%2Fdontplopsmallcity03vb7.jpg&hash=058a906c02a1206ec86c4a5a1938a84a877dd417)

Despite its size, this tower only has slightly above 1,000 jobs, but hey, we need it for the eye-candy effect!
And let's not exaggerate the town's expansion...

Two months after the mayor plopped his tower, the Census Repository is reporting 1,126 CO§§§ jobs in the city.
They also report a massive negative demand for further CO§§§, but that was expected...

And the mayor is particularly satisfied to see an increase in the residential demand, especially R§§.
Maybe this little town could see some highrises already...

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg524.imageshack.us%2Fimg524%2F6020%2Fdontplopsmallcity04ls1.jpg&hash=c724d4fe7d55b9b18a53a1d3ccbbca9bacfa9840)

Knowing nothing about real life (simulation), he thought he would soon get stage 8 residentials.
Even if only stage 1 houses have appeared so far...

One month later he gets an annoying call from the Census Repository.
People have started to commute into town from elsewhere, 866 in just one month.
And where are they coming from? There isn't enough workforce in the region to explain the commuters coming to us...

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi232.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fee198%2FRippleJet%2FDontPlopSmallCity-06.jpg&hash=237187795b3a854a4b46c34da62e8336da6d7bf9)

And hey, they aren't even working in our town... 540 of them are commuting out of town for work...

Yet another month later the situation has escalated...

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg144.imageshack.us%2Fimg144%2F236%2Fdontplopsmallcity07ph3.jpg&hash=88a38399d214ffa340582eac6b76d6aa2eb52256)

Another two months later the situation seems to have stabilized, but the mayor wonders if he should be happy.
The population of his town has grown slightly, and there are lots of vacant jobs:

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg100.imageshack.us%2Fimg100%2F3589%2Fdontplopsmallcity09jo9.jpg&hash=ff6843186f877dae7d65f10673b5b6d784bf2503)

However, due to his plopping, the regional capacity is now reported to be above 4,000.
That is an imaginary figure though, the real capacity is still about 600, nothing has happened to the neighbouring town...

The reported regional residential capacity is now more than 40% of the long-term regional demand of 9,395. It used to be about 16%...
Plop a bigger tower, and soon there will be enough imaginary residents in the region to halt development alltogether.

Besides, the number of commuters is behaving irrationally...
There are now 1,749 commuters coming into town and 2,236 going out of town.
But the local workforce is still only 142. Are those commuters breeding?

Now, the mayor got a bit nervous... with thousands of commuter going through his town...
Surely the traffic situation must be horrible now, hope I can still be able to cruise around my quiet neighbourhood.

Looking at the traffic report he was perplexed though:

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg407.imageshack.us%2Fimg407%2F8209%2Fdontplopsmallcity10qp1.jpg&hash=287f8df1c2f7b29638272e70a122d8c62fd9554b)

There are no commuters going through his town, the only traffic across the border are a few freight trucks.
There are only 42 workers in the tower with a current capacity of 1,044.

All those commuters that plopping the tower added are imaginary and eternal.
They have exactly the same effect on the demand simulators as the eternal commute circles around city corners.






When can we plop a functional landmark?

Now, the discussion above does not mean that you cannot plop functional landmarks in the game.
However, you need to be sure there is a demand for the building you're plopping. ;)

The simulator is fully capable of handling a plopped commercial and even a plopped industrial, if there is a demand for the type of RCI they represent.
The effect in that case is the same as if a similar building would grow, it satisfies a demand for capacity that exists.

Thus, if you want to plop a skyscraper providing 5,000 CO§§§ jobs, make sure you do have a demand for CO§§§ at that level!

Ploppable commercial towers should be rewards, available only if the actual demand is larger than its capacity. ::)
Title: Ploppable Residentials, Functional or not?
Post by: RippleJet on April 02, 2008, 05:04:45 PM
Ploppable Residentials, Functional or not?

Regarding ploppable residentials, please consider this:

The residential capacity reported is depending on desirability factors.
If desirability goes down, and the actual capacity drops below 50%, the building will dilapidate or become abandoned.

The biggest residential desirability factor is the employment. If people can't get employed they usually leave as soon as possible.

Desirability can be increased through other factors, e.g. education, health, land value, park effect, lack of crime, etc.
If you're able to compensate the negative effect of unemployment by these factors, you obviously are able to plop residentials.

Likewise, freight time is a desirability factor for industrials, but not as severe as the unemployment for residentials.
Thus, plopped industrials have a lot better chance of surviving.

For a plopped residential not to abandon right away, the desirability factors must be right when plopping.
That is the reason you have to plop them on top of an existing residential building with a good existing employment.

but...

First of all, even if the desirability is high, the chances are slim that you will get any occupancy in the residential building when you plop it.
Secondly, if you do manage to get an occupancy in it, the chances are still very slim that it would stay occupied for any longer period.

My experience is that it isn't worth the hassle to try to keep the desirability factors high enough for a building where unemployed people live.
Once you for some reason have managed to get a reduced desirability in the area (increased traffic, pollution, crime, etc.),
the building would become abandoned. And once it has abandoned it will never, ever become reoccupied.

Thus, knowing this, I have always said, and will always continue to say, that plopped residentials do not work.
Most people elsewhere wouldn't understand the more subtle explanation given here. ;)
Title: Re: Ploppables with Jobs and Residents. Why not?
Post by: j-dub on April 02, 2008, 05:44:50 PM
My ? is could this be modified so ploppable residentials don't screw up, that they can work like commercial does with no apparent vehicle connection. I have noticed the opposite with an apartment highrise. I clicked on the ?, it was abandoned, but then later after 30 minutes on tripple speed, the dilaphitation, all of a sudden disapeared, and then it was back to normal, and actually said 1350 of 1370 residents. There are other times when the building is dilaphitated, but not abandoned, maybe because it corrects itself. Generally my game bases this on commute times. Also, when I zone, at first it may say commute long, which will cause abandonment if not fixed, but the problem either gets worst, or corrects itself in playmode, versus when I plop houses, its stuck on long commute, no matter what the population specs, I tried this in an empty city and doesn't get fixed. Basically the programming of the ploppable residential was never there to begin with, so its all bad. RippleJet  is right.
Title: Re: Ploppables with Jobs and Residents. Why not?
Post by: Pat on April 02, 2008, 07:05:09 PM
Tage thank you for this informative postings about plops w/RCI vs candy lots... I will have to reread it a few times over and over to fully grasp what Ive read but I get the basics that if there is no demand it will more or less throw off false reports, if im following that right?
Title: Re: Ploppables with Jobs and Residents. Why not?
Post by: sithlrd98 on April 08, 2008, 06:19:46 PM
I'm pretty sure I get the jist of this , but I do re-lot some of my res And com to be just  regular landmarks...is this also going to negatively affect my city?
Title: Re: Ploppables with Jobs and Residents. Why not?
Post by: zakuten on April 08, 2008, 10:33:50 PM
A side question, but where do you get this Census bureau? I only have the older version...
Title: Re: Ploppables with Jobs and Residents. Why not?
Post by: wouanagaine on April 08, 2008, 11:32:34 PM
go here, http://www.simtropolis.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=41&threadid=84816
read the first post by ripplejet, the file is attached to that post

Reminder to RippleJet => Put it on LEX :)
Title: Re: Ploppables with Jobs and Residents. Why not?
Post by: xxdita on April 09, 2008, 10:09:25 AM
Regular landmarks don't have this problem, because they don't have residents or jobs.
Title: Re: Ploppables with Jobs and Residents. Why not?
Post by: Pat on April 09, 2008, 01:47:58 PM
I was having a chat with someone the other day about this very subject anyways aint it true if that you have the demand for the building you want to plop it will actualy substain and not go hay wire?  Or is that a completly diffrent train of thought on this?
Title: Re: Ploppables with Jobs and Residents. Why not?
Post by: RippleJet on April 09, 2008, 05:06:01 PM
Quote from: Pat on April 09, 2008, 01:47:58 PM
I was having a chat with someone the other day about this very subject anyways aint it true if that you have the demand for the building you want to plop it will actualy substain and not go hay wire?  Or is that a completly diffrent train of thought on this?

That's what it's all about when plopping functional landmarks with commercial jobs, yes! ;)
Title: Re: Ploppables with Jobs and Residents. Why not?
Post by: zakuten on April 09, 2008, 06:37:31 PM
Thankee kindly, Wouanagaine!
Title: Re: Ploppables with Jobs and Residents. Why not?
Post by: Pat on April 09, 2008, 07:27:55 PM
Kewl thank you Tage!!!
Title: Re: Ploppables with Jobs and Residents. Why not?
Post by: sithlrd98 on April 10, 2008, 09:54:57 AM
Quote from: xxdita on April 09, 2008, 10:09:25 AM
Regular landmarks don't have this problem, because they don't have residents or jobs.

Thanks Dita , Just checking  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Ploppables with Jobs and Residents. Why not?
Post by: Denon333 on August 31, 2008, 07:07:45 PM
I don't have any real problems with Functional Landmarks(or The mod Funtional Landmarks), it is because I have the Super Demand Mod.Sure, from the start it causes your CO$$$ and CO$$ demand to fall but with enough education,healthcare,police and fire,in the long term,it helps with development as ploping more will bring more 'kaching!', more residential demand and only a small effect on CO$$$ or CO$$ demand.So this is how I put it(If there are no neighbouring cities):
Ploping Funtional Landmarks: Short Term: Costs money and affects demand
                                       Long Term: Brings in more residential demand
Title: Re: Ploppables with Jobs and Residents. Why not?
Post by: RippleJet on September 04, 2008, 04:17:47 AM
Quote from: Denon333 on August 31, 2008, 07:07:45 PM
it is because I have the Super Demand Mod.

Ahhh, but most devoted players don't want to cheat... ::)

SC4 is supposed to simulate real life city growth.
I wonder what the Super Demand Mod would correspond to in real life... $%Grinno$%
Title: Re: Ploppables with Jobs and Residents. Why not?
Post by: Diggis on September 04, 2008, 04:29:55 AM
Economic boom.  Followed by a recession, when you removed it.  :D
Title: Re: Ploppables with Jobs and Residents. Why not?
Post by: joelyboy911 on July 17, 2009, 07:08:01 PM
Very useful information RippleJet.

Quote from: Diggis on September 04, 2008, 04:29:55 AM
Economic boom.  Followed by a recession, when you removed it.  :D

Someone has been interfering with the World's plugin folder. Please re-install our Super Demand Mod!
Title: Re: Ploppables with Jobs and Residents. Why not?
Post by: blade2k5 on July 17, 2009, 07:50:40 PM
Quote from: RippleJet on September 04, 2008, 04:17:47 AM
Ahhh, but most devoted players don't want to cheat... ::)

SC4 is supposed to simulate real life city growth.
I wonder what the Super Demand Mod would correspond to in real life... $%Grinno$%

Excuse me ()what()  Cheat? :o  Supposed to simulate real life city growth?  That part may be true in a sense of purity, but cheating?  That's a mighty strong word my friend :P  I prefer to build my cities the way I want them at my pace instead of the game dictating all of that [that and I make so many pretty maps that I want to develop them all ::) ]  I would prefer the term "semi-realistic real city growth that could be possible if given a dash of fantasy plus all the stars being aligned just at the right time allowing for certain breakthroughs made scientifically in which technology took a giant leap forward and if the law of physics were different than what we understand today."  Doesn't that have a better ring to it?  :D
Title: Re: Ploppables with Jobs and Residents. Why not?
Post by: M4346 on July 18, 2009, 04:26:00 AM
Quote from: RippleJet on September 04, 2008, 04:17:47 AM
SC4 is supposed to simulate real life city growth.

Firstly, supposed to is the operative word here, hence CAM! And thanks Tage for that!  :P

QuoteI wonder what the Super Demand Mod would correspond to in real life...

Dubai?  $%Grinno$%
Title: Re: Ploppables with Jobs and Residents. Why not?
Post by: RippleJet on July 18, 2009, 12:52:52 PM
Quote from: blade2k5 on July 17, 2009, 07:50:40 PM
Doesn't that have a better ring to it?  :D

It most certainly does! :D


Quote from: M4346 on July 18, 2009, 04:26:00 AM
Dubai?  $%Grinno$%

Ahh, yes, they just had a CTD, removed the demand mod and restarted in Vanilla version... ::)
Title: Re: Ploppables with Jobs and Residents. Why not?
Post by: M4346 on July 18, 2009, 12:56:46 PM
:P

Thanks for putting it all in clear and plain language. I personally hate using functional ploppables, both because they clog up menus and have so many issues.

I'm a grower, not a shower!  $%Grinno$%
Title: Re: Ploppables with Jobs and Residents. Why not?
Post by: Wiimeiser on February 25, 2011, 03:15:29 PM
Don't buildings have to regrow to become ocupied again? Does anyone know this?
Title: Re: Ploppables with Jobs and Residents. Why not?
Post by: RippleJet on February 25, 2011, 03:31:14 PM
Quote from: Wiimeiser on February 25, 2011, 03:15:29 PM
Don't buildings have to regrow to become ocupied again? Does anyone know this?

Do you mean growable buildings that have already become vacant?
In that case, no, they don't have to regrow (or upgrade).

They can become reoccupied if there's enough demand and if the desirability of the area is high enough.
If it's a residential or commercial building, it can also become reoccupied with a lower wealth level.

However, the longer they are vacant, the further the land value in the area will drop.
Thus, the longer it stay vacant, the lower the desirability in the area will become and the smaller the chance of it to become reoccupied.
In such cases I usually find myself bulldozing the vacant building instead.
(unless I can increase the desirability some other way... e.g. by planting trees)
Title: Re: Ploppables with Jobs and Residents. Why not?
Post by: six9nc on February 19, 2013, 02:22:01 PM
"They have exactly the same effect on the demand simulators as the eternal commute circles around city corners." 

Excuse me for bumping this topic but I am familiar with everything in this post except the eternal commute circles.  Can someone elaborate for me.  Tahnks.

Title: Re: Ploppables with Jobs and Residents. Why not?
Post by: NCGAIO on February 19, 2013, 04:01:08 PM

can read a good solution in this thread


A solution to the eternal commuter problem (http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=5271.msg167743#msg167743)


but it has several about theme threads then i suggest "eternal commuter" on - research -


bring 52 results as information
Title: Re: Ploppables with Jobs and Residents. Why not?
Post by: spot on April 20, 2013, 03:20:52 PM
-
Title: Re: Ploppables with Jobs and Residents. Why not?
Post by: bman7 on December 06, 2013, 04:14:44 AM
If I want to get rid of the jobs in a functional landmark, what program should I use? And which values do I have to delete?
Title: Re: Ploppables with Jobs and Residents. Why not?
Post by: Swordmaster on December 06, 2013, 04:59:25 AM
The best route is to use PIMX (http://sc4devotion.com/csxlex/lex_filedesc.php?lotGET=2260) and create a new building, and with that building a new lot, from a given model. It's rather easy to do once you get past the initial ()what() of using the program. There's a manual (http://sc4devotion.com/csxlex/lex_filedesc.php?lotGET=2257) that comes with it and multiple threads around the forum detailing what you need to do.


Cheers
Willy
Title: Re: Ploppables with Jobs and Residents. Why not?
Post by: bman7 on December 06, 2013, 08:33:32 AM
I have Windows 7 SP1 so I can't use PIMX.
Title: Re: Ploppables with Jobs and Residents. Why not?
Post by: vortext on December 06, 2013, 08:36:03 AM
Quote from: bman7 on December 06, 2013, 08:33:32 AM
I have Windows 7 SP1 so I can't use PIMX.

Have you already tried this win7 SP1 (http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=14216.msg408710#msg408710) bug fix?!
Title: Re: Ploppables with Jobs and Residents. Why not?
Post by: bman7 on December 06, 2013, 09:34:06 AM
Somehow I missed that thread. It works now, thanks.

Before I start figuring out what I'm supposed to do, how do props work with it? Is there a way to import them into the new lot, or would I have to manually place all the props?
Title: Re: Ploppables with Jobs and Residents. Why not?
Post by: vortext on December 06, 2013, 09:46:13 AM
Glad to hear it works now!  :thumbsup:

Quote from: bman7 on December 06, 2013, 09:34:06 AM
Is there a way to import them into the new lot, or would I have to manually place all the props?

You can select all the props & textures from the original and simply copy/paste them into the new lot. Though you may want to read the manual Swordmaster linked to first of all.  ;)
Title: Re: Ploppables with Jobs and Residents. Why not?
Post by: Swordmaster on December 06, 2013, 09:56:52 AM
What Vortext said, but in some detail:

Suppose you want to replicate the exact same lot, but with a PIMXed building exemplar.

1/ Create a building exemplar with PIMX (drag the model to the appropriate building category).
2/ Create a ploppable lot from this building (in the building window, right click -> create ploppable). Make sure it has the same size as the original.
3/ Close PIMX and open your new lot in Reader. Find the LotConfigPropertyLotObject property. This one and all the "unknown" properties right below it contain the information regarding what is on the lot and how it's placed. Select all the ones whose value line starts with "0x00000002" and delete them (right click -> delete property). These are the textures PIMX put on your lot but you don't need them.
4/ Open the original lot in another instance of Reader. Find the LotConfigPropertyLotObject property again. Select all of the properties that start with "0x00000001" (these are the props) and "0x00000002" (textures) and copy-paste them to the new lot.
5/ In the new lot file, right click in the properties window -> Reindex LotConfig.

Now, your new lot shot be a perfect copy of the original, except the building.


Cheers
Willy
Title: Re: Ploppables with Jobs and Residents. Why not?
Post by: vortext on December 06, 2013, 09:59:27 AM
Quote from: Swordmaster on December 06, 2013, 09:56:52 AM
3/ Close PIMX and open your new lot in Reader.

Wait. You know you can copy/paste lot properties in the PIMX itself, right?! No need for the Reader.  ;)
Title: Re: Ploppables with Jobs and Residents. Why not?
Post by: Swordmaster on December 06, 2013, 10:11:11 AM
Quote from: vortext on December 06, 2013, 09:59:27 AM
Quote from: Swordmaster on December 06, 2013, 09:56:52 AM
3/ Close PIMX and open your new lot in Reader.

Wait. You know you can copy/paste lot properties in the PIMX itself, right?! No need for the Reader.  ;)

Ah, no I didn't. I've never used the PIMX lot editor. One would need to load all dependencies used on the lot, so I figure Reader is faster.


Cheers
Willy
Title: Re: Ploppables with Jobs and Residents. Why not?
Post by: vortext on December 06, 2013, 10:19:00 AM
Quote from: Swordmaster on December 06, 2013, 10:11:11 AM
Ah, no I didn't. I've never used the PIMX lot editor.

What, that's crazy!!  :P  :D

At any rate, there's even no need to load all the dependencies as long as the model for the building itself is present. So the entire procedure would be:

1) create the building exemplar
2) create the ploppable lot 
3) delete the textures from the new lot by selecting all the lot entries which say texture, right-click and choose delete.
4) navigate to the original lot, select all the lot entries which say texture & prop, right-click and choose copy
5) go back to the new plop lot, right-click and choose paste
6) hit save and you're done

Also note this is all done in the main PIMX window, i.e. no need the enter the actual Lot Editor.
Title: Re: Ploppables with Jobs and Residents. Why not?
Post by: bman7 on December 08, 2013, 11:40:32 AM
This is going to be very annoying to do. I have 30-40 lots I'd like to do this with, and some of the lots I need are missing from the list. I only have the folder I'm currently fixing selected when I start it up. :/
Title: Re: Ploppables with Jobs and Residents. Why not?
Post by: Kuewr665 on December 08, 2013, 05:39:08 PM
And the building placement cannot be preserved?
Title: Re: Ploppables with Jobs and Residents. Why not?
Post by: vortext on December 09, 2013, 04:06:27 AM
@ bman7, it's quite easy once you get the hang of it. I reckon 30-40 lots will take you about an hour or so.

@ Kuewr665, good question. Unfortunately building placement is not preserved, it's always centered for new lots. So step 5.5 would be: re-position the building.
Title: Re: Ploppables with Jobs and Residents. Why not?
Post by: bman7 on December 09, 2013, 08:03:10 AM
How do you move the building?

And sorry for all the questions; I haven't done any sort of lot editing for at least a couple years, and I'd never heard of PIMX until you mentioned it.
Title: Re: Ploppables with Jobs and Residents. Why not?
Post by: vortext on December 09, 2013, 12:24:22 PM
No need to apologize for questions.  :)

Once you've pasted the props & textures into the new lot, right-click again and choose 'Lot Editor'. Two new windows come forth: the preview and tools. Now press 'B' for building and it'll turn solid blue, indicating you can grab it with your mouse and move around. Or use the arrow keys for precise positioning. More key commands are in the Read-Me.
Title: Re: Ploppables with Jobs and Residents. Why not?
Post by: 0715463494 on March 13, 2018, 09:32:38 PM
Hi all.The most important reason i play with the demand mod is that,when you have a region,every tile has a sort of set maximum population for that tile,i dont like that at all.If the demand and conditions is right,then there must be no limit to the population you can reach.
Title: Re: Ploppables with Jobs and Residents. Why not?
Post by: mgb204 on March 13, 2018, 11:09:29 PM
I'm not entirely sure how this comment relates either to the subject under discussion or it's last posts? Perhaps you didn't notice, but the last post here was back in 2013, well over four years ago? I point this out because it's generally considered bad etiquette to re-open dead discussions, especially if you don't have something new or useful to add to the explicit discussion taking place. When people do this, it brings such dead topics back to the forefront of the forums, making more up-to date and relevant content harder to find in the process.

As such, I would kindly request that in future you pay a little more attention to the date of posts before re-opening such threads. You are always more than welcome to start a new topic of discussion in the forums if you can't find a related or active thread.
Title: Re: Ploppables with Jobs and Residents. Why not?
Post by: 0715463494 on March 13, 2018, 11:42:22 PM
If thats the case,then set the system up to auto delete,lets say after 6 months or whatever.
Title: Re: Ploppables with Jobs and Residents. Why not?
Post by: mgb204 on March 14, 2018, 03:18:14 AM
We place the following warning when attempting to post in such a manner:

QuoteWarning: this topic has not been posted in for at least 90 days.
Unless you're sure you want to reply, please consider starting a new topic.

That really should be sufficient.

I don't think anyone would want the archives or history to be removed, they are immensely useful and form the basis of the lifetime of the sites knowledge being shared. However, your comment didn't directly correlate to either the subject matter or last posts, as such this is not the place for it.

I merely politely asked you consider such actions in future, so coming back with snide comments is hardly acceptable.
Title: Re: Ploppables with Jobs and Residents. Why not?
Post by: XIsasi on June 02, 2018, 04:46:57 AM
i´m agree with the last post