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Commute engine tweaking for NWM

Started by mott, October 13, 2007, 01:27:51 PM

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jplumbley

Hey Mott... Awesome work.  &apls  &apls  &apls

I cannot wait to test out your Park and Ride System... Now, I will get some practice playing with the Transit Switch Costs of the bus stops, trains stations etc.  And... I will charge those sims an arm and a leg to park $20 a car for downtown parking... hehe.  Man this will be very good!  You will be able to control the number of cars coming downtown by the number of parking spaces you create, if there arent enough parking spaces the sims wont be able to reach work unless they walk or ride mass transit.  Some, PED blockers may be required though for major roads leading into downtown from subrubs so the sims dont walk 1000 tiles.
"You learn something new everyday."

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Bringing the new horizons closer to reality.

Berethor ♦ beskhu3epnm ♦ blade2k5 ♦ dmscopio jplumbley ♦ moganite ♦ M4346 ♦ Dedgren ♦ Ennedi Shadow Assassin ♦  Tarkus ♦ wouanagaine
Street Addon Mod - SAM

mott

@jplumbley: 

People won't walk 1000 tiles unless it's faster than driving or riding transit 1000 tiles.  If someone really can't drive or ride transit to work, that long pink arrow is a lot more helpful for troubleshooting, than a no-job zot is.  So I'd consider *not* blocking them when testing Entry Cost mods, just to make sure you haven't done something that Sims would go too far avoid if they could.   I also have it tuned so an "Entry Cost" of 1 appears as 1 minute on the graph, so we don't have to do mental gymnastics to interpret test results.

In the MaxisStationFixes file, I patched all the transit stations and parking garages to have an Entry Cost of 0.3 (toll booths 0.5).   So any Sim who rides transit gets a 0.6 total extra time cost added to his trip; 1.2 if he transfers to another form of transit.  Parking lots are 0.3, so I added a "start cost" of 1 to all car trips, for a total 1.3 overhead.  Driving and parking or taking a transit trip with one transfer should be roughly equivalent.  Since the Sims who use transit move so slowly on foot, it may be necessary to add even more starting cost to car trips, to give the transit users a "head start."   But congestion does that anyway; all handicapping the pedestrians does is cause people to use transit to avoid congestion sooner.

If I understand this A* thing, the "Entry Cost" causes the pathfinding algorithm to place transit switches lower in the search queue than the current zero value does.  This should actually save CPU while being "smarter."  The pathfinder is not forced into checking destinations for every bus stop it encounters any more; it just marks their locations and comes back to them if it determines that there might be something to be gained by entering them after all.  The bus stops that lead somewhere useful will be at the top of the search queue at that point.... All this stuff we're doing with congestion curves and "speeding" and Entry Cost should save the pathfinder a lot of work.  Too bad the game is so hard to benchmark.

^--- If any of the above is wrong, our resident programmer will pipe in and correct me, I hope, before I do something that causes people pain.  All the problem sets I'm used to solving start with "Assume an *arbitrary* algorithm"  and not any specific one in particular... :D

If you really need to block peds, a single tile of ANT/RHW will do the job without putting a TE lot on the map.  Even better - how are the ped-mall lots blocking all the other traffic?  If "blocker" puzzle pieces are possible, that's the way to do it.  I have a report coming on TE lots, and no one is going to enjoy it very much I'm afraid.

jplumbley

Did I mention, I hate TE Lots when used as Network tiles?  I am very passionate about this topic so... Your report will be music to my ears.

In fact it is possible to block traffic with the TE Lots.  There are a few different Blocker sets out there as it is blocking Trucks, busses, cars, etc from entering a certain tile.  I dont use them, I was just saying that, if there is no parking left and there is no mass transit from Wouanagaine's test it shows that the sims will still goto work, but walk as far as they need to, to get there.  ::)

Please, hurry with that report.  I HATE  :angrymore: TE Lots for network tiles and I will have even more concrete proof of it when your done.
"You learn something new everyday."

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/169/nhpjplumbleykv3.gif
Bringing the new horizons closer to reality.

Berethor ♦ beskhu3epnm ♦ blade2k5 ♦ dmscopio jplumbley ♦ moganite ♦ M4346 ♦ Dedgren ♦ Ennedi Shadow Assassin ♦  Tarkus ♦ wouanagaine
Street Addon Mod - SAM

Tarkus

Quote from: jplumbley on October 25, 2007, 01:29:35 PM
Did I mention, I hate TE Lots when used as Network tiles?  I am very passionate about this topic so... Your report will be music to my ears.

Same here. ;) 

-Alex (Tarkus)

mott

#64
Quote from: jplumbley on October 25, 2007, 01:29:35 PM
Please, hurry with that report.  I HATE  :angrymore: TE Lots for network tiles and I will have even more concrete proof of it when your done.

You're on.  I already wrote it up as a text file, so I'll just cut/paste it into a new thread.  TE lots are _ugly_.  Even the Maxis ones.

Edit: Max Commute in the ParkAndRide is 24 I think... at 5 kph (or 5 tiles-per-step, in pathfinding terms) they *should* walk no more than 5*24=120 tiles.   Unless there's something hard-coded to treat pedestrians differently.  Strange.

JoeST

Especially the maxis ones... they didn't do anything right did they lol
Copperminds and Cuddleswarms

XieChengnuo

Hi guys,

I'm a relative newcomer to the world of simcity 4, but when I found this mod, I was absolutely delighted, and downloaded it with great expectations.

So I've been building my quaint little town now, and I've came across some odd things:

First, I found I had a great deal of no-job zots as I was developing my city (the way it's designed is that one region is a bedroom community with only a few commercial jobs, and the other town has all the industry and pollution).

At first I thought it was because I didn't have enough connections, or the commute was too long, so I did whatever I could to shorten it, and I played a fair amount of time on both cities to make sure that that maximum commute time thing was dealt with... but no go.

Then I found this mod and tried it out, but still, no go!  Now here's the interesting thing.  When I *demolished* a certain avenue connecting our regions, all of a sudden all my no job zots disappeared and they all got commute times of "short"...

It's really strange...

So I thought that that fixed it all.  But then when I started making residential communities a bit farther out, I started getting the no job zots again.  Again I tried everything I could, building more jobs, making the commute times shorter but to no avail.

So I started destroying random roads in the hope that the same miracle would happen, and lo and behold... when I destroyed every road out of a community, so that the commuters were forced to take the train to work, it worked.  All the no job zots disappeared.

It doesn't really make sense to me that destroying their path out actually allows them to get a job... the even stranger thing was that, even though this isolated community had a road to get to the train station, they all went by foot - even going many many many squares away!  Only one house took the car. 

So I was like ... ok now I can build the perfect city, and I just made more and more and more and more houses, I made tons of houses, all making sure that it was isolated and they only way they would have to get to work would be through this train station.  And it worked.  Residential demand stayed high so I could build as many houses as I wanted (and people somehow found a way to move into them), there was no pollution (because feet don't generate pollution), no congestion (because pedestrians don't cause congestion), I was making tons of money, people were finding jobs...

But it all seems a bit hokey, don't you think?

I've installed the following plugins:

NAM (radical ordinance setting thingy)
ground light rail and some train stations (but i don't use any)
bridge height changer (i don't have any bridges)
bluish greenish oceans
BSC texture pack, and of course (i don't think any textures are used from here)
your mode beta 0.3 with all the options.

Will a save file help you simcity gurus at all?  How would I get it to you?  (My cities, all zipped up together is a total of 3.99 MB)

jplumbley

Hello XieChengnuo,

There are two versions in the last zip file Mott created.

One has the general Traffic Simulator fixed up with our calculations and additional changes.  This will be the one you will probably want to install for the time being.

The second one is one that doesnt allow cars to reach job destinations only pedestrians can do that.  What is required is that you make use of parking lots for sims to drive downtown, park and walk the final leg of their journey.  This is an idea Mott had to add a little more realism and make it a bit more challenging at the same time.  This one works fine, but you have to have parking lots.

Hope this helps.
"You learn something new everyday."

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/169/nhpjplumbleykv3.gif
Bringing the new horizons closer to reality.

Berethor ♦ beskhu3epnm ♦ blade2k5 ♦ dmscopio jplumbley ♦ moganite ♦ M4346 ♦ Dedgren ♦ Ennedi Shadow Assassin ♦  Tarkus ♦ wouanagaine
Street Addon Mod - SAM

mott

Actually, the word "avenue" stuck out at me... are we sure this isn't the famous "U-turn at edge of city" problem?  Or an off-by-one-tile problem in the other city?

dragonshardz

watching this thread. Looks good guys.... not much else to say....

XieChengnuo

Quote from: mott on October 31, 2007, 08:29:04 PM
Actually, the word "avenue" stuck out at me... are we sure this isn't the famous "U-turn at edge of city" problem?  Or an off-by-one-tile problem in the other city?


Can you tell me more about this "U-turn at the edge of town" problem?  Would there be a way for me to send you the savegame?  I'm hoping it can help you with your testing and stuff.

By the way, great job you guys, you guys are awesome *thumbs up*

mott

Quote from: XieChengnuo on November 01, 2007, 06:48:09 PM
Can you tell me more about this "U-turn at the edge of town" problem?

First, just a in-game picture of the problem area would help a lot.  I think I have had the problem you describe also, a long time ago before there were mods.

There's something strange that can happen with two-tile networks.  Sometimes when an avenue or highway leaves a city - say on tiles 99 and 100 - it appears in the other city on tiles 100 and 101.  Then the Sims get stuck.

The "U-turn problem" happens when housing is facing an avenue - Sims can only go one direction when they leave home.  If there is nowhere for the Sim to turn around, he can be forced off-map into the neighbor connection.

Hope this helps.

XieChengnuo

I think the non-aligning thing may have been it because I tried to take some screen pics with the avenue and without the avenue, but when i connected it again, it started working again.

There are still some residual people without job zots though.  But thank you guys so much for the help and for the mod, I will try to do further testing. :)

Starmanw402007

Not sure if this ? applies. But was wondering this. How many Lanes will we be able to play with in the NWM? or is that top secret? LOL.

Your Friend;
Mayor Of Steven's Point & Maxiston
(Proud To Be Cities Of Sim Nation)
Your Friend;
Mayor Of Steven's Point & Maxiston
(Proud To Be Cities Of Sim Nation!)

jplumbley

Quote from: Starmanw402007 on November 02, 2007, 10:39:32 AM
Not sure if this ? applies. But was wondering this. How many Lanes will we be able to play with in the NWM? or is that top secret? LOL.

Your Friend;
Mayor Of Steven's Point & Maxiston
(Proud To Be Cities Of Sim Nation)

Well, with Avenues, we are currently working one TLA-3 (one tile) and TLA-5 (two tiles), we would like to in the future get a TLA-7 (three tiles) working but that is a ways away and will only happen after TLA-3 and TLA-5 are done.  Other Avenues we should be able to make easier after the TLA projects, these will be Ave-6 (three tiles), Medianless Ave-8 (three tiles), Medianless Ave-4 (two tiles), Medianless Ave-6 (two tiles).  Obviously, RHW is in this big batch, RHW-2 (one tile), RHW-4 (two tiles), RHW-6 (three and four tiles), RHW-8 (three and four tiles) and RHW-10 (four tiles) will all eventually be made.  Now, Alex is working on RHW-MIS right now, along with RHW-2 and RHW-4.. I havent seen what he has for RHW-10 yet, but anyways.

What should you expect to see in the next release?

RHW-2
RHW-4
RHW-MIS (some sort of release)
TLA-3
TLA-5
A few new SAM additions including (Avenue Intersectios fixed, Roundabouts, OWR Intersections, two new Dirt Textures)
Revised RTL Plugin (hopefully, if not the existing will not be compatible with TLA-3 or TLA-5)

BTW.. Christmas is so far away, I dont want to be working on this stuff until then, I would prefer to get it out sooner than later.  But, of course, there is still lots to do.
"You learn something new everyday."

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/169/nhpjplumbleykv3.gif
Bringing the new horizons closer to reality.

Berethor ♦ beskhu3epnm ♦ blade2k5 ♦ dmscopio jplumbley ♦ moganite ♦ M4346 ♦ Dedgren ♦ Ennedi Shadow Assassin ♦  Tarkus ♦ wouanagaine
Street Addon Mod - SAM

wouanagaine

Time to revive this thread :)

I'm playing a lot with rurality, making small/mid sized town, and as I really like the drive&park mod for my downtown, it is a bit frustrating to have either everyone goes to farm job by feet or have to plop parking around the farm

I hope you can find a solution

New Horizons Productions
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M4346 ♦ moganite ♦ Papab2000 ♦ Shadow Assassin ♦ Tarkus ♦ wouanagaine
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jplumbley

@Wou.. Its all or nothing.  There is a property that has 1 rep for each Traffic Type.  It is a Boolean operation 1= Traffic Type can reach destination, 0= cannot reach destination.  The only thing I can think of is making a ploppable parking lot which looks like a wheat field or something.
"You learn something new everyday."

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/169/nhpjplumbleykv3.gif
Bringing the new horizons closer to reality.

Berethor ♦ beskhu3epnm ♦ blade2k5 ♦ dmscopio jplumbley ♦ moganite ♦ M4346 ♦ Dedgren ♦ Ennedi Shadow Assassin ♦  Tarkus ♦ wouanagaine
Street Addon Mod - SAM

wouanagaine

Well that may be the only solution then, thx for the tips

New Horizons Productions
Berethor ♦ beskhu3epnm ♦ blade2k5 ♦ dmscopio ♦ dedgren ♦ emilin ♦ Ennedi ♦ Heblem ♦ jplumbley
M4346 ♦ moganite ♦ Papab2000 ♦ Shadow Assassin ♦ Tarkus ♦ wouanagaine
Divide wouanagaine by zero and you will in fact get one...one bad-ass that is - Alek King of SC4

mott

I use a modified version of the "Rural Parking V2" lots from the STEX - I'd post a link, but unfortunately ST is timing out right now.  There's a 1x1 dirt parking lot in that set, and it looks OK around farms. 

I'm busy with RL, digging through the work backlog that piled up while SoCal was on fire, and moving to a larger apartment.   I'm around, just a little slow to respond.

Starmanw402007

I'm not sure if this was asked before. But here it goes. How soon could we expect a Beta Version of the NWM?
Just Curious. :)

Your Friend;
Mayor Of Steven's Point & Maxiston
(Proud To Be Cities Of Sim Nation!) :)
Your Friend;
Mayor Of Steven's Point & Maxiston
(Proud To Be Cities Of Sim Nation!)