Three Rivers Region

[thundercrack83]

If I'm not mistaken, a large city tile is 4km x 4km, or 4000m x 4000m.

Yes, that was another question that I've been meaning to ask for a long time now. What are the dimensions of the large city tiles? Is it 4 km x 4 km? Because, I think I saw somewhere where it was 3 km x 3 km, but I'm probably wrong.

[Ajax]

David,

The level of detail and the amount of technical data you provide is amazing!

[NikNik]

.....snooze....snore....grumblh.......
Huh, what......
...did anyone say PARTY!
Waking up in a bewildered manner. PARTY.... Toga ! Toga!

Anyway, great updates David. I love the background story and the RL & SC4 mix. Very entertaining indeed. Keep up the good work David. I will be here watching and reading.

Your ol'friend,
Nik-Nik

[kwakelaar]

Reading through your whole CJ has left me out of words, thus

[dedgren]

The Table of Contents is now located in its permanent home here [linkie].  Enjoy your visit to 3RR!


David

[dedgren]

So, busy day yesterday.  By my estimation, 3RR received about 150 page views, which equals its best days over at Simtropolis, a site with over 160,000 members.  You folks definitely put the "devotion" into SC4D- thanks ever so much.

...who'da thunk rural land development could be such a compelling subject?

Speaking of milestones, we reached one at 11:21 (AST  GMT-9) last night, when my friend Justin Dustin (thundercrack83) made the 200th post here!

...drum roll, please...



Justin Dustin, you've now joined the growing ranks of folks who are "on the map," so to speak.  I'm especially looking forward to your comments, along with everyone else's, as we move this region forward into being fully-developed.

Let me cherry-pick the last couple of comments by way of answering a few questions-

Justin Dustin asked, in his post on 1-16:

What are the dimensions of the large city tiles? Is it 4 km x 4 km? Because, I think I saw somewhere where it was 3 km x 3 km, but I'm probably wrong.

Last fall, when 3RR was immersed in posts about scale, I created the following chart.  This is the answer, folks, at least as far as I am concerned.  You can see some slight rounding, but hey...I'll let you in on a secret-

...we're playing a game, not doing a land survey.

SIZE		m/km	f/mi
AREA
Grid Square		16m	50ft
Small City		1km	.66mi
Medium City		2km	1.25mi
Quad (Large City)		4km	2.5mi

Yesterday Phil (pvarcoe - Terraforming Teton) asked:

Given that mile roads are 1 mile apart or approx 1620m apart; that means there would only be about 2 or 3 mile roads running vertically and the same running horizontally in a large city tile. I wonder if that will have the appearence of being a little too spread out, although technically correct?

We'll be getting to pics that will let you folks reach a conclusion in a bit.  The short answer is, as far as I'm concerned, no- not at all.  Here's a Quad screenie of what Phil is describing.



Ignore the grey outline of the quad except for on the right, which is in fact a road (well, technically, as far as the game is concerned, it's a street, as I have placed no roads in this quad).  There are three east-west roads (north is up) one mile apart and three north-south roads.  The quads to the north and south and east and west, if they are similarly rural-agricultural, will have two roads on each axis.

This ignores, however, placement of many other things.  Later arriving, higher volume roads, for one.  Towns and cities.  Rail lines.  Power poles.  Dumps.

...yeah, in 3RR they're still called dumps- none of them foo-foo "landfills" for us true sons and daughters of the Great White North!

So, you'll see, and you can decide.

Craig (craiggles)...heh!  I know exactly how you feel- been there, done that.  Thanks for hanging.

I've got to go to work.  I'll go back to the most recent comment to close, though.

This morning, kwakelaar said:

Reading through your whole CJ has left me out of words

...probably 'cos I used all of them!

Have a great day, folks.  Thanks for being 3RR Regulars!


David

[mightygoose]

another great informative post however how are you going to deal with offset nature of the chunks outside your grid at the edges of this tile and ensure the grid is maintained over a larger area...


EDIT- oh and another thing how do you get region census to work with such a large region, my region is similiar in size, if not slighty bigger than our and my census just crashes every time.... i wondered if you have experienced anything similiar...

[threestooges]

If I recall correctly, the railroad made its way west by generous government land grants (lay 1 mile of track and get 10 sq. miles of land on either side check it out). Given this, I was wondering if there would be any effect cause by railroads through the region (getting ahead a bit perhaps, but what can I say, I like trains)? I am assuming based of my research (yeah... research...right) that since it was public use land, it was still available under the homesteading act, but I would be curious to know your take on it since this act was signed 10 years after the homestead act.

[Gaston]

If I recall correctly, the railroad made its way west by generous government land grants (lay 1 mile of track and get 10 sq. miles of land on either side check it out). Given this, I was wondering if there would be any effect cause by railroads through the region (getting ahead a bit perhaps, but what can I say, I like trains)? I am assuming based of my research (yeah... research...right) that since it was public use land, it was still available under the homesteading act, but I would be curious to know your take on it since this act was signed 10 years after the homestead act.

   That David deffinately raises an interesting question.   Doesn't it?   Hmmmmmmm.


---Gaston

[thundercrack83]

Thunder Bay! And I didn't even realize that I was the 200th reply! Thank you very much, this is such an honor. And, thank you for answering my question about the scale of the tiles.

Also, I should point out that my name is "Dustin," not "Justin." Very common mistake, but at least you didn't call me "Joanne" like my grandmother did once...

[Shadow Assassin]

Very nice, David. And you've pretty much given us food for thought regarding Maxis's selection of the 16m x 16m tile format.

If I'm not mistaken, a large city tile is 4km x 4km, or 4000m x 4000m.

Nope. They're 4096m x 4096m. Simple reason: if it was 4000m x 4000m, there'd be a few tiles left over. 6 tiles, to be exact. And if this was done with 2000m x 2000m - 3 tiles. 1000x1000m - 1.5 tiles. Doesn't quite work, does it?

However, if it was 4096 x 4096 - there'd be 256 tiles. 2048 x 2048 - 128 tiles. 1024 x 1024 - 64 tiles. This actually brings me to greyscale mapping, which I won't go into detail here, as it's not necessary.

Also, the 16x16m tile is easiest to work with from a coding perspective, because it is a base 2 number (2^4 to be exact), and base-2 is known as binary. Binary-wise, it's basically (in 8 digits) 00010000.

Unfortunately, this means David's chart is slightly off... The modifications I have made are in bold.

SIZE		m/km	f/mi
AREA
Grid Square		16m	0.01 mile (50ft?)
Small City		1.024km	.64mi
Medium City		2.048km	1.28mi
Quad (Large City)		4.096km	2.56mi

From that, we can ascertain that (since 1.6km = 1mi, 0.625mi = 1km) that all these numbers are base-2. So, looking at that table, we can see exactly why Maxis used 16x16: because it can easily be used in either kilometres or miles. 5000ft to one mile, and 16m = 0.01mi/50ft, correct?

And from this, 1 acre is equal to four tiles (which is what you said)... or 64m. By this we can see that one acre has 0.04mi to a side.

I hope I haven't stuffed up your calculations.

But hey, I do love how you try to apply real life measurement to your SC4 region - and believe it or not, it's somewhat easier than people make it to be (considering how Maxis's measurements fit in so well with both km and mi).

This ignores, however, placement of many other things.  Later arriving, higher volume roads, for one.  Towns and cities.  Rail lines.  Power poles.  Dumps.

Didn't the planning authorities throw out the mile-by-mile concept before highways, avenues, etc, arrived (1905, as you said before)? I dunno, maybe you could disregard that concept in this case?

[dedgren]

OhmaGod, Justin Dustin...

...checking, checking...yeah, got it right...'hem...

...I am so unbelievably sorry.  I have corrected the erroneous info on the offending post and fired...

...hey, wait a minute, you can't do that...

...those responsible.

Obviously Thunder Bay will have to play some huge role in 3RR's subsequent history.  I owe you one, man!


David

p.s.:  Shadow, I see you lurking- I'll deal with your impertinent post...

...Darth Vader:  "I've been waiting for you Obi-Wan. We meet again at last. The circle is now complete - When I left you, I was but a learner. Now, I am the master"...

...tomorrow (after I think up a proper response to your completely correct, but inconvenient, calculations).  DE

[thundercrack83]

OhmaGod, Justin Dustin...

...checking, checking...yeah, got it right...'hem...

...I am so unbelievably sorry.  I have corrected the erroneous info on the offending post and fired...

...hey, wait a minute, you can't do that...

...those responsible.

Obviously Thunder Bay will have to play some huge role in 3RR's subsequent history.  I owe you one, man!


David

Not to worry. Like I said, it happens all the time...

In my excitement over Thunder Bay, I didn't get a chance to comment on your latest post, particularly about whether or not the roads would look too spread out, despite being technically correct, as asked by pvarcoe. In my opinion, I think in the city view like you've shown, it may look "wrong" to some because all the 1 mile x 1 mile grids aren't aligning perfectly within the city tile. However, if I'm following what's going to happen correctly, in the region view, that won't be a problem because the grids cut off will be continued and the grid would turn out much more uniform. But then again, I may be completely wrong.

Anyway...I'll be looking forward to your next update.

[meldolion]

Graet updates David!!!
Your precision and devotion in your calculations remembers me the middle ages Monks with their books

Keep up the good work!!!!!

[KooriSim123]

G'day David how's things man. Well i had to jump in and now say im a little  after reading Shadows comment i got lost and thought bugger it give or take 100 metres who cares   
Great stuff cant wait for Thunder bay
catch ya

[Shadow Assassin]

Heheh, David, you don't have to use these measurements. Just keep on using those ones you made, if it's easier for you. I just put it out there. I'm not making you use these measurements and everything.

I just felt like replying to that little comment, lol.

And if I've confused people with that comment, don't worry too much. I can be like that sometimes.

[NikNik]

Now that we have the scale right (or almost right to 4,096 x 4,096 m) and we all agree that Size matters, I am just wondering how the actual scale of the buildings fit in this whole picture. Maybe the buildings should then also increase by a certain factor?
I am just afraid that you create huge maps with tiny villages in the game, or am I paranoid (I still think this smiley looks like Ozzy).

Nik-Nik

[dedgren]

Hello Again.  I posted this a few days ago.

n.b.:  It's pretty clear, based on the current average rate, that we'll hit 2,000 page views here at SC4D early tomorrow, the 15th.  I'd like to thank in advance all of the 3RR Regulars- which is anyone who've ever stopped by at least once- for continuing to be such a great bunch of folks to write for.  It only gets better from here.

Update:  (01-15-07 9:00 a.m. AST  GMT-9)  Well, it was 2,005 and counting the first time I checked the 'puter this morning after getting out of bed (today's a federal, state and, most important, court holiday).  Thanks again to all you great folks out there!

Well, we're three days and about 400 page views past that now.  I noted yesterday that I thought there had been 150 views during the preceding day, and that this rate equalled that achieved during 3RR's best days over at ST.  You folks just don't know how gratifying I find your willingness to stop by here.  It's like I get to play SC4 with one hundred of my closest friends almost every day.

I'll repeat here, in short form, my plea to all those who lurk [linkie] at 3RR.  You are absolutely welcome to do so, if that be your style.  But consider the following, which I repeat, with an appropriate change, from my previous post on the subject

• I'm sure some of you are visitors to SC4 Devotion and thus can't post, as only members can.  Now, I just can't even guess why anyone would pass up the ability to formally join this great community at the bargain price of zip (nada, zilch, etc.).  You'd be warmly welcomed, treated like guests, fussed over, all that stuff.  If this post encourages even one of you to join us in our shared SC4 experience, I'll be really pleased.  If you do that and then post and let me know that on 3RR, I'll be really, really jazzed about it.

• If you are a member and are just lurking; hey, step out into the light.  At least this once.  Let me know who you are so that I can add you to that select group of folks who have unburdened their thoughts at some point here at 3RR.  You aren't signing up for anything- I won't ask that you post again and again (post, POST until you GET IT RIGHT!  Yes, you, with the guilty look.  Heh!).  The one thing I would ask that you is take just a minute, if you would, and let me know what I could do to make 3RR whatever best maintains your interest.

Again, lurk if you will.  Just remember, though, that it was only with the support and encouragement in the comments that were made that 3RR grew from this



into this



and that we were able to come up with things like this



and this.



I'd hope that you would all comment, as well, in the other great Mayor's Diaries that have been started here at SC4D.  As of today, they are

AntigOne, by Badsim
Avolon, by petercintn
Elephant Bay, by tkirch
Finishing Peraires, by jeronij
Gotham City: The Regular Edition, by derek_pearce
Levante, by nedalezz
Grand Canyon, by jeronij
Metasmurf's showcase, by metasmurf
Rise of Kooriopolis - UN of Gondwanaland, by KooriSim123
Socialist State of Rodina, by sepsis
Terraforming Teton, by pvarcoe

In fact, even if you don't comment here at 3RR, you should take the time to comment in any or all of the above.  They are each well worth the time spent in a visit, and every one of the authors both needs and appreciates your feedback and constructive criticism.

As a final note, speaking of comments- I'll be responding to the great ones that accumulated overnight (in Alaska, anyway) later in the day today.

Take care.


David

EDIT: Grammar and flow, errors, that sort of stuff.

[jestarr]

David, although I'm more a lurker than a poster, I thought I'd give yours a go.  You've some interesting concepts developing.  Nice work!  In reference to building size and therefore lot size, Maxis wasn't too far off (imho), in their choice of 1x2 for, low density, single family.  At least in my part of the woods, lots have a 50 foot (15.24m) minimum width at the building line, with an 80 foot (24.38m) minimum length and a 15 foot minimum setback.  In a typical, ant hill, subdivision, this would be almost exact, i.e., minimal front and rear yards, pack em in as tight as possible.  If you factor in a 1500 sq. ft. house, with attached garage, measuring 50 x 50 feet, the house would fit believably on two tiles and be near accurate in "real world" scale.  Below is an example of the typical ranch house I'm referring to.  It measures 50 x 50 feet (including the garage); 20 feet to the ridge line and a pitch of 7:12.  This type of house can be seen in, almost, every region of the U.S.

[tkirch]

David,

I learn so much when I read your posts, and I hope you knopw how much you encourage us in our SimCity efforts.  I only wish I could draw the maps you do.  Your map with the yellow background, how you do that I have no clue.

The depth you have gone into on the division has made for interesting reading.  We can get a clear picture of where you come from as we read Three Rivers.