CAM - General Discussions

[xxdita]

Actually, it sounds like it could very well be exactly the same thing. These "phantom" Sims are counted by the game, and take up jobs, but don't actually exist. To be certain, try getting a screen capture of your Census Repository info for that city, and posting it here.

[SimFox]

RippleJet. Yep I do have z_Cam and I use NetworkAddonMod_Traffic_Plugin_BetterPathfinding_CAM_PromoteWalking.dat that is from CAM and NetworkAddonMod_Traffic_Plugin_A_Easy.dat from NAM. I guess that is that reasons (one easy thing on top of another)

Of course I should have been more specific when i said I have a city with no traffic problems. First of all it is a town of 145.000 real souls. Second - all major transport arteries are roads. But most of residential development stands on streets, none of which are drive through eg are dead ends. This way there isn't any "unrelated traffic on them. Thirdly practically all of residential zones are mid density ones. And I sort of planned this time around what and how I build instead of just adding to the grid. Commercials are located along those arterial roads with high density zones around cross-roads. That is where most real highrises are concentrated (I've got first stage 11 CO$$$ building already). I also use public transportation buses and a circular subway line. Wast majority of people work in CO and CS and those are always found relatively nearby (withing a walking distance with this traffic plug-in) that, I guess cut's on cross town traffic.
But all that should be taken with a grain of salt, well, a grate big boulder of salt really. It ain't any accurate or even very logical traffic model. For instance I do have one "narrow" spåt - a buss stop with about 5000 users. When I plop another just next to it (2,5 squares to be precise) instead of taking a load of then first one it get same traffic. So Sims, apparently just take bus rides from one stop to another with no reason other then to be on the bus.

Streets are not meant to be major part of you transport system. I think the name is very deceptive here. The more appropriately those should be called side-streets, or something along those lines.

About working ghosts. I believe this is a real  issue. But one set in game itself, rather then in any add on. Traffic simulator would never show you as many sims traveling as are listed as a workers in any given place. More that often in say industry there are NO trips by workers at all! I guess they are all using transporters and are beaming in from straight, or not from their beds. That was about hightec, in Dirty or manufacturing I guess we are dealing with slaves chained to their machines...

[Rayden]

I use to have those ghosts a lot, but now, That doesn't happen so often, mainly due to the way I play the game now. I use to connect cities one to another with roads, subs, highways, whenever I wanted. I used to make cities that when near the edge, would connect to the neighbour tile on every road points. Those roads, specially the ones near the corners, was the major causes to the ghosts or infinit commuters. They used to make a infinit loop, like going out  looking for a job, finding a connection on the other side, that if connected to another city, would keep looking for that job, ending on coming back to the first city.
Now that doesn't happen because, my cities connections are usually made with one rural or normal highway and a train line maxim, and preferable, far from the corners. That has been working OK to avoid that problem.
Also, never build or grow any lot that reaches the last tile of any city. That makes the sims to commute to the neighbour city.

[RippleJet]

RippleJet. Yep I do have z_Cam and I use NetworkAddonMod_Traffic_Plugin_BetterPathfinding_CAM_PromoteWalking.dat that is from CAM and NetworkAddonMod_Traffic_Plugin_A_Easy.dat from NAM. I guess that is that reasons (one easy thing on top of another)

The plugin you installed with the latest NAM is still superseded by the one in z_CAM.
There was a Cleanitol file included with NAM, which you should have run.
That would have removed the file in z_CAM.

Now, I'd recommend you to remove the z_CAM folder and download the Mac version of NAM.
That will allow you to pick the traffic plugin and play with the different versions of them.

About working ghosts. I believe this is a real  issue. But one set in game itself, rather then in any add on. Traffic simulator would never show you as many sims traveling as are listed as a workers in any given place. More that often in say industry there are NO trips by workers at all! I guess they are all using transporters and are beaming in from straight, or not from their beds. That was about hightec, in Dirty or manufacturing I guess we are dealing with slaves chained to their machines...

I think you are confusing yourself with the difference between capacity and actual workers.
The normal query shows the capacity of the building, e.g. 464/500, where 500 is the property value given in the building exemplar and 464 is the current capacity, which depends on the desirability.
The actual number of workers is reported as Jobs in the Ctrl-Shift-Alt Query.

[SimFox]

RippleJet:
I've installed CAM after NAM, so when I run Cleanitol prior to NAM installation there was nothing to be removed...

I must add that those couldn't possible be "commuter" since this city is the only on in the region.

To go back to my first issue - Pedriana Farm. I'm grateful for the advise I was given (to download extra farms, or Pedriana/Maxis Farm blocker) they do make game look nicer, but at the same time they hide the problem instead of solving it (possibly and preferably). Pedriana is a stage 3 farm! So, no way should it be the very first farm to develop, but it did!. Also CAM is  supposed to "ration" buildings of various stage. So At NO point there could be more then 20% of stage 3 farms. All together. But there they were 6 Pedrianas out of 7 farms!Something is clearly not working.
My current city had developed way past the farming stage and now develops nowadays. And I don't want to start next town in order to keep away all the "regional" problems. But that more urban landscape isn't without an issues either. Am I getting it right -Cam is suppose to reset all the games original lots into the new 15 stager system? Right? And the residents/worker per tile numbers were published...
So here is one discrepancy - 4x4 CO$$ lot Fisk insurance. It boasts 5752 jobs and doesn't display cam logo or title. I must say I was a bit cionfused how would I recognise CAM lots and so one, but now since I've manged to get CTRL+ALT+SHIFT+query tool I see that this is stage 8 lot. But it has got 359 jobs per tile. This number is suppose to promote it to CAM stage 10 lot...
So what do we have here? Did tis lot just slipped by, or is there some deeper issues?

[HandsOn]

Since this is a major issue - is there really no way to influence the simulator? I mean, OK, the capacity vs. Jobs I understand, but when you have a building that reports (using the cheat), say 100 jobs, why then does the traffic query only report 15 commuters? This is just an extreme example, but it appears those two never even come near in matching up. And seeing the ever new boundaries NAM is leaping over - isn't it just a matter of time until some clever "sausage" figures out the solution?

Ever hopeful, is what I am..  

[SimFox]

I'm not quite sold on that capacity vs. jobs thing, not yet...
And even that is so -eg normal query window showing current capacity and theoretical one (a bit silly presentation if you ask me to show 2 theoretical numbers) despite line next to it state Current JOBS there is still something wrong! Shouldn't the building with NO workers in it be abandoned one?

BTW I've made some screenies of that FISK insurance lot:

this is a standard query:


here is ACTRL+ALT+SHIFT query:


And here is traffic query:


as you can see the number of jobs (the sum of different $??- 2085:2606:521) coincides with the first number on Current Jobs line in standard query 5212 and 5213 (I guess there are some half people involved) and number of commuters 2729 (again sum) doesn't with any number

[RippleJet]

RippleJet:
I've installed CAM after NAM, so when I run Cleanitol prior to NAM installation there was nothing to be removed...

Figures!

Then I would have suggested not to select any pathfinder plugin when installing CAM, but instead use the one that came with NAM (one of the options in the CAM installer).

To go back to my first issue - Pedriana Farm. I'm grateful for the advise I was given (to download extra farms, or Pedriana/Maxis Farm blocker) they do make game look nicer, but at the same time they hide the problem instead of solving it (possibly and preferably). Pedriana is a stage 3 farm! So, no way should it be the very first farm to develop, but it did!. Also CAM is  supposed to "ration" buildings of various stage. So At NO point there could be more then 20% of stage 3 farms. All together. But there they were 6 Pedrianas out of 7 farms!Something is clearly not working.

Those percentages are only probabilities, and huge fluctuations will be seen, especially early in the game when the cities are small.
If farming demand is really high, you will naturally have more Pedrianas, since they provide more jobs.

My current city had developed way past the farming stage and now develops nowadays. And I don't want to start next town in order to keep away all the "regional" problems. But that more urban landscape isn't without an issues either. Am I getting it right -Cam is suppose to reset all the games original lots into the new 15 stager system? Right? And the residents/worker per tile numbers were published...

So here is one discrepancy - 4x4 CO$$ lot Fisk insurance. It boasts 5752 jobs and doesn't display cam logo or title. I must say I was a bit cionfused how would I recognise CAM lots and so one, but now since I've manged to get CTRL+ALT+SHIFT+query tool I see that this is stage 8 lot. But it has got 359 jobs per tile. This number is suppose to promote it to CAM stage 10 lot...
So what do we have here? Did tis lot just slipped by, or is there some deeper issues?

The Ctrl-Alt-Shift query doesn't give you the growth stage.

And, if you'd read Appendix 4 in the CAM manual,
you'd find that the 4×4 Fisk Insurance is indeed a stage 10 CO§§.

Since this is a major issue - is there really no way to influence the simulator? I mean, OK, the capacity vs. Jobs I understand, but when you have a building that reports (using the cheat), say 100 jobs, why then does the traffic query only report 15 commuters? This is just an extreme example, but it appears those two never even come near in matching up. And seeing the ever new boundaries NAM is leaping over - isn't it just a matter of time until some clever "sausage" figures out the solution?

I'm not quite sold on that capacity vs. jobs thing, not yet...
And even that is so -eg normal query window showing current capacity and theoretical one (a bit silly presentation if you ask me to show 2 theoretical numbers) despite line next to it state Current JOBS there is still something wrong! Shouldn't the building with NO workers in it be abandoned one?

The Game Simulator is largely based on capacities, not actual jobs and workers.
The fact is that commercials and industrials can flourish with nobody working in them at all.

The development simulator wouldn't work at all if the number of jobs and workforce would have to match each other.
This is the reason for the workforce drives being around 150% instead of 100%.

Consider a real life office currently offering 123 jobs.
However, if the economy is booming (desirability is good),
I'm sure that office could have a capacity of 150 instead...

It works the same way in SC4, there is always a capacity for more jobs if needed.
However, in SC4 the unused capacity isn't evenly distributed all across your region.
Instead it's the pathfinder that determines where people work, and those workplaces that are farthest away from your residentials are those that will not have anybody working in them.

as you can see the number of jobs (the sum of different $??- 2085:2606:521) coincides with the first number on Current Jobs line in standard query 5212 and 5213 (I guess there are some half people involved) and number of commuters 2729 (again sum) doesn't with any number

Ok, that's a good point.
Obviously the Ctrl-Shift-Alt Query also reports the capacity and not the actual number of workers.

[HandsOn]

Then I would have suggested not to select any pathfinder plugin when installing CAM, but instead use the one that came with NAM (one of the options in the CAM installer).

Let's back up a bit here: are you saying the CAM pathinder overwrites or replaces the NAM pathfinder? Because I went the same way - new NAM first, selected B, then installed CAM (don't recall which pathfinder I used but I did use one).

Guess the only way to query which pathfinder is in use is to experiment, e.g., remove respective files (if I can identify them - sic)?

[RippleJet]

Let's back up a bit here: are you saying the CAM pathinder overwrites or replaces the NAM pathfinder? Because I went the same way - new NAM first, selected B, then installed CAM (don't recall which pathfinder I used but I did use one).

Guess the only way to query which pathfinder is in use is to experiment, e.g., remove respective files (if I can identify them - sic)?

Check your z_CAM folder.
Any pathfinder found in there will overwrite the one in the NAM folder.
In order to use the one that came with NAM, just remove the z_CAM folder!

Since NAM now has a complete set of pathfinders, appropriate to be used with CAM,
CAM 1.1 will not include any pathfinder at all.

[SimFox]

Obviously the Ctrl-Shift-Alt Query also reports the capacity and not the actual number of workers.

Well that doesn't surprise me at all. If that is the number that game is based on...

But... wonders never cease!!!

How would you explain this set of pictures/data:







Number of commuters exceeds that of either capacity. what sort of economy is that? Grey one? Of is this place covertly clones some sims that leave place by bus?

[RippleJet]

Number of commuters exceeds that of either capacity. what sort of economy is that? Grey one? Of is this place covertly clones some sims that leave place by bus?

Not really.

The commute query counts those taking more than one means of transport more than once.
In your example it seems like 143 workers are taking both the bus and the car, switching means of transport on their way to work.

There is also always a delay in updating the numbers.
Especially the route query is slow on updating, due to the time it takes to solve all commute paths.

[SimFox]

And, if you'd read Appendix 4 in the CAM manual,
you'd find that the 4×4 Fisk Insurance is indeed a stage 10 CO§§.

Not quite sure on that one either, sorry...
First of all "modded" let's call it that way; query shows what it get from, I guess, lot exemplar. So given that it displays CAm stage in that industrial and no stage on Coit C$$$ CAM lot. So possibilities are that that Fisk's exemplar wasn't updated... Not nice but something hat is totally possible to live with. But there are more evidence to the contrary - namely hat this is rogue "straight" RH lot we are dealin' here with. Here is screenie with CAM Counter. As you see I don't have ANY CO$$ stage 10 lots in the city. But there it is - Fisk Insurance, right there next to the statement that it doesn't exists.




Pst.
I reduced the size of your pic a bit.
/Tage

[RippleJet]

The CAMeLot counter is given in the Occupant Group in the building exemplar, not in the lot.
All ingame building exemplars are used on more than one size of lots.

The Fisk Insurance is used on two lots:
   Lot Sise 5×4, Stage 9
   Lot Size 4×4, Stage 10

Since I didn't want to make too many changes to the ingame buildings and lots,
I decided to continue to use the same building exemplar on those two lots.

However, that also meant I had to decide whether it would be counted as a stage 9 or 10 lot.
I decided to go for the lower one, for obvious reasons.
Thus, that single stage 9 CO§§ is the Fisk Insurance (even if it is indeed a stage 10).

[HandsOn]

  I give up. And I was trained (a long, long, long time ago) as an economist. The SC4 relation between demand, population and actual workforce does not in any way add up to anything remotely possible.

Methinks its time the game itself (not NAM/CAM), and in particular the simulator, were rewritten by someone who actually has at least a faint idea about supply-side economics...  

[RippleJet]

Methinks its time the game itself (not NAM/CAM), and in particular the simulator, were rewritten by someone who actually has at least a faint idea about supply-side economics...  

I'd say the simulator works pretty well,
considering what level of computers it was meant to be run on.

[HandsOn]

I'd say the simulator works pretty well,
considering what level of computers it was meant to be run on.

Sure, it "runs" well, in terms of running the game, and especially when considering the HW of those days. But we've gone on a bit, in terms of said HW, and for this here game still being a considerable cash cow for EA, it really is time that they took the plunge to at least patch it to work with todays HW and thus exploit the HW factor by providing a more realistic simulator..

[krbe]

Methinks its time the game itself (not NAM/CAM), and in particular the simulator, were rewritten by someone who actually has at least a faint idea about supply-side economics...   

Too many dots in your chart? 

[HandsOn]

Too many dots in your chart? 

Actually, quite enough dots - now all we need is for the simulatore to connect them and thus draw the right picture.. 

[jmyers2043]

Quote from: SimFox on Today at 12:11:20 PM
To go back to my first issue - Pedriana Farm. I'm grateful for the advise I was given (to download extra farms, or Pedriana/Maxis Farm blocker) they do make game look nicer, but at the same time they hide the problem instead of solving it (possibly and preferably). Pedriana is a stage 3 farm! So, no way should it be the very first farm to develop, but it did!. Also CAM is  supposed to "ration" buildings of various stage. So At NO point there could be more then 20% of stage 3 farms. All together. But there they were 6 Pedrianas out of 7 farms!Something is clearly not working.


Those percentages are only probabilities, and huge fluctuations will be seen, especially early in the game when the cities are small.
If farming demand is really high, you will naturally have more Pedrianas, since they provide more jobs.

There was a discussion a week or so ago about why things grew when they did.

Click Here

One point made during the discussion. On factor is that Maxis will select a larger building when making the decision about what to grow. Pedrianna's is huge. I am not surprised at your results. I use the pedrianns'a plants mod by Shadow Assassin. That will get rid of it for sure.