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SimCity 4 Devotion Custom Content Showcase => Independent Development Projects => Independent Mod Projects => Topic started by: Gobias on May 29, 2012, 07:08:32 PM

Title: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Gobias on May 29, 2012, 07:08:32 PM
Well let's call this the ribbon-cutting ceremony for Gobias Industries, my newly christened production factory making custom terrain, water and texture mods for the benefit of the SC4 community.  Which is basically just me.  Daniel.

Long-time lurker but I've never really posted.  I've been tinkering with modding the game for many years for my own enjoyment.  Having enjoyed the use of so much content produced by the community I now feel the need to try and give something back.  Hopefully it meets the quality standard.

Though I've created everything from demand mods and lighting mods, to street tree mods, my primary interest has always been developing terrain and exploring the games application of them.  Folks here like Lowkee, CP, Orange, and others have pioneered terrain modding and for all of their work I'm eternally grateful.  I'd never have learned much of anything beyond the swapping out of 128x128 textures if it hadn't been for their tremendous work.  Both reading their threads and dissecting their work w/Ilive has provided me with the knowledge necessary to feel I can produce something worthy for the community.  So to all, esp Lowkee as I sought his recent advice before kicking off this thread - a HUGE thanks.

So here's what I'm up to.  My initial objectives are water/terrain based and trying to build off of some of Lowkees stunning recent progress in the area to create a varied selection of mods.  I'm an avid hiker and I initially sought to recreate terrain in my three favorite places to hike.   So I'm attempting to produce:

- Berner Oberland Mod
- Highlands (or Icelandic) Mod
- Pacific Northwest Mod

Each of these will be dramatically different in palette from the Appalachian mod Lowkee's already released.  And by "comprehensive" I mean that I intend for the mod to include optional installable water, rock, beach, inshore, offshore, sunglare, water gradients, terrain properties, lighting scheme including night-water colors and adjusted coloring of sunrise/set, terrain INI tables, adjusted sun angles to match the locals, and of course terrain texturing.

Some reference shots for the desired look:

First, the Berner Oberland in Switzerland.  The region features vividly bright green grasses even at high altitudes, bright limestone-rock textures, glacier-fed lakes that are teal to bright blue in appearance.
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2F37986449.jpg&hash=4d4f71816f8d93fb68c2f0595993eb82ffebc939)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FBernerOberland4.jpg&hash=e7c113fd956da6c99b006de3755bd9b090bde6ce)

The second, the Highlands mod which also resembles the Icelandic terrain (esp at low altitudes).  The lowlands in Scotland and the Icelandic grasses exhibit a glow that's very unique.  Both the water in the Scottish lochs and in lakes around Iceland both share a dark, mirror-like, almost black appearance.  And at higher altitudes the highlands rock formations take on a brownish-red appearance in season.  The area also features much deeper terrain shadows as a result of the low angle/azimuth of the sun which I will manipulate.
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FIceland4.jpg&hash=1c93f43667cf9b0fcbd4e53a7482a0863a5683bf)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FLochLomond.jpg&hash=d12f4e54725c8606cb9aacbc511edeb14829ba9d)

And the third will be the Pacific Northwest, probably the most "standard" look of the three when it comes to terrain (though flora is a much different matter) as it's more characteristic to the western Canadian mountains and closer in appearance to the American NWest landscape.
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FPacificNW.jpg&hash=665ff343fed3f9b0f470065d1d48dddc893e20fb)

Now as for the progress of the three above mods I'm already well on my way and I'll detail the progress in the next few posts over the coming weeks.  The last step I'm working on is to replace several "temporary" textures that I've borrowed from the Appalachian/Pyrenean mods which I color-adjusted to fit the palette.  I initially considered requesting permission to use the adjusted textures but I'm thinking now I'd rather just make sure that everything included in my mod is 100% made-from-scratch.  I kind of feel guilty color-grading someone elses texture, so...  give me a little time on that front and I'll have more to show.  Until then, a brief preview of coming attraction (with several temp textures in place):

Highlands:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FHighlands.png&hash=124220211c247b05c3622596e26d23524b2a3319)

... So that's the destination.

Before I get there I'm probably going to take some time to explore water mods in depth.  There's much to do with water that I don't feel most modders take full advantage of.  More than just replacing the base textures.  In my next post I'll cover some details regarding the Sun Glare:  Adjusting it to fit the mod and how it interacts with the water surface gradient.  Lowkee explored this subject on his thread however I'm finding a few additional details on the subject that I think begs continued discussion... (testing on the glare below)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FRed6Bavarian.png&hash=ec641a7c2e5880a0cb2a09d772d18c9e9897cbc2)

Oh and before I forget.  PM is the best way to contact me (not email).  Suggestions, comments, criticisms all welcome.  Looking forward to getting started and I hope that the end result is a collection of mods that are LEX eligible.

Cheers,
Daniel
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: catty on May 30, 2012, 11:50:20 AM

looking forward to seeing where you go with this    :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: cmdp123789 on May 30, 2012, 01:49:14 PM
Nice... I really enjoyed reading this... took some minutes, but it is perfectly understandable... there many features that are not covered by modders.. but it is because of their experience that we have this much today... so I totally agree that there is a need to take it to the next level.. so go for it!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Lowkee33 on May 30, 2012, 02:04:29 PM
Glad to see you start a thread Daniel :)

One thing about changing the angle of the sun: sometimes this makes the shadows of models appear incorrectly.  You might start to see the bottom of the shadow beginning again.

Don't forget about the Weather Exemplar.  :P  It would be interesting to see someone else have a go at this.
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Gobias on June 01, 2012, 03:52:34 AM
Thanks all.  I should have an update to show this weekend.  Work weeks for me get pretty hectic so most of my updates will probably post on the weekends.

Lowkee:  Yes, I will definitely have a go at the weather once the basic mods are cleaned up.  And thanks for the tip on building shadows, I'll definitely keep that in mind while testing it.  In the past when I've played with sun angles I find it necessary to scale them back from real-world figures or the effect looks too distorted in-game.  Esp in locales like Iceland where angles in the low teens around autumn just looks awful in-game.  So it's definitely a balance between reality and playability.  I'll watch for the building shadows as I go.
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Gobias on June 02, 2012, 02:35:38 PM
Well the little time I've gotten to spend this week on SC4 has been spent in the water-lab experimenting with the sun glare.  The results have ranged from hideously awful to some halfway decent results.  Let me start out by introducing the approach to the water mod.  If you've worked on water before some of this may be old news but for those looking for an introduction to the process I'll walk you through some of the tools:

A lot of water mods in circulation merely replace the main game water texture (09187300-4) and go no further.  Here's what we actually have at our disposal:
-The water texture: 09187300-4

-Two shore/beach textures (13,14 textures).  Some modders use this as beach texture, others as extension of water.  I use them to create unique combinations of shoreline color blends.  Here they are indicated by red/green below:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2Ftext13red14green.png&hash=b2d2cef625c1458159b91d84de08155360d16c56)

-Multiple Terrain Properties including:
waternightcoloradjustment:  to affect the RGB change of water values after night falls
waterdepthtocolorgradient:  controls the distribution of gradient color (1 pixel relates to meters of depth)
min and max waterdepthfordeepseabedtexture:  controls the distribution of the 13-14 textures

-The sun glare alpha:  69efb7da  (a reduced version of the MAXIS glare is pasted below.  This is what I've been using to retain but mute the glare effect for a about a year now).
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2Funtitledg.jpg&hash=4360277a7b1b7fa8e3319e4dda71437790e727c0)

-Gradient c9efb727:  controls the color of the "side" of the water table from the top down.  (Picture below tests the gradient effect w/the gradient changed to RED):
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2Ftestcgradred.png&hash=fdd393aa1361f220a85893bacf3b305443e97571)

-Gradient 69efb7da:  controls the "side" color of the water table and, most importantly, the top pixel of the gradient affects the surface color of the water.  (Pictured below w/gradient as RED)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2Ftest6gradred.png&hash=0d7cfd051c6abc0c0062043db356b718d959e6a2)

NOTE:  Lowkee explored the effects of both gradients in his threads.  An approach he (and also drunkapple's in his recent STEX release) put forth that if the water texture is a grayscale then the top pixel of the 6-gradient can be manipulated to create an endless spectrum of water-surface hues without having to change the color of the main water texture itself. 

My testing this week has centered on the concept that if one intends to keep the sun glare in place (you can remove it by simply making the glare alpha a flat-grey alpha) then SC4 is actually applying the top-pixel color of the 6-gradient at varying strengths and blending it with the underlying water texture according to the strength and distribution of the sun-glare alpha.  Therefore it may add another tool to the modders toolkit to retain the glare and use it for a blending effect.  When the glare is "blackest" the 6-gradient hue is strongest.  Where the glare alpha is "whitest" the true color of the BMP shines through at it's brightest.  See below:

Here's a Bavarian Glacial lake texture blended by the Maxis Sun Glare w/a RED 6-gradient top pixel...
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FRed6Bavarian.png&hash=ec641a7c2e5880a0cb2a09d772d18c9e9897cbc2)

If we switch the underlying water texture to a darker "Atlantic" blue then the blend w/the red gradient is more purple around the edges and you can see where the base texture of the water is darker blue in the center (where the glare is whitest):
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FRed6Atlantic.png&hash=69809071085e9776c44c107ca8135c18202dc95e)

Using a flat-grey sun-glare alpha eliminates the glare and allows purely the color of the top-pixel in the 6-gradient to show across the water:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FRed6BavarianNoGlare.png&hash=a189a3f185dd029ae05cc9caf34650dea51f73c6)

So that brings us to the glare itself - a nasty bit of business as it's proven to manipulate successfully!  With so many variables acting in concert my attempts to experiment with it have had mixed results.  I'll show a few below ranging from really-distracting-and-obtrusive to more subtle and possibly useful effects:


Here's a selection of glares I tested...
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FhdSunGlareStroked.png&hash=8be2c94dd379e215f170a39b34d3f97fc6f30616)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FhdSunGlarewild.png&hash=99227d910ae3021cba01590c7c2725551e6b73d5)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FhdSunGlareRippled.png&hash=fc14c9ac8b4b7b9349da0a5d03ab09fd2937a64b)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2Fhdtest.png&hash=357ed4caefa5d68b7ca604a13a064763287266ec)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FhdSunGlareRippled5-1.jpg&hash=5cff6445303798f9cd9c536af4f997199ac9572d)

...and a few results... (that last one, yikes!)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FNewCity-Jan2001338652908.png&hash=28f64bb7ccbf88da4e9bd8811a21a75d7564a221)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FNewCity-Jan4001338646486.png&hash=e8b2ad1d00a725da76a4d88f32a9386fa31ddf9e)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FNewCity-Jan4subtle.png&hash=9be5dc410bd10353127dd78df56c94f5b1cbf5a3)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FNewCity-Jan4001338645061.png&hash=ef2c7a7a114c5aff188324cd23811b75128a3537)

So it's definitely still a work in progress and I may still elect to take the safe-route and simply reduce the glare as I have been in the past.  But it's an interesting concept because we might not even think of it as a "sun glare" at all.  What it really is is an alpha that can distribute texture across the entire map, not just across a tile.  That makes it uniquely useful since the texture of the water 09187300-4 can only ever be tiled.  This allows us to create a map-wide gradual effect.

I've had the best success combining an underlying water texture with a top-pixel gradient color of either SLIGHTLY different color or mixing something like a blue water w/green gradient and applying a low-contrast glare.  In other words we can use the sun glare not as a glare at all but as a method of spreading a blended water color across the map for a pollution-effect or a deep sea v. shallow sea effect.  Similar to how I typically use the 13-14 shore textures as a green/brown mixture in the below images:

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FMississippi.png&hash=3ace2006539c6af705aa96d2cce6d16062a1db86)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FToyko.png&hash=27856bc3a649e8bc0dc09c47d64732a41607769c)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FManhattan.png&hash=b12b1fe812311cdf748682d91423de58d37370dc)

... At any rate, very much a work in progress.  If anyone has any thoughts on the glare-conundrum I'd love to hear them.  Right now I've gotten to the point where every test I attempt with it ends up looking too busy and I think I'll have to stick with a simple muted-glare and come back to this a little later down the road. 

Next up is to rework some of my older base water textures (pictured in most of the pics above) with something a little more HD.  I always use a 5-zoom texture approach w/water because I don't think one should see full-on wave detail when hovering at 20,000 feet on furthest zoom.  I'll update once I clean up the base-water textures with replacements.  Then we'll deal with night-color adjustments.  And another topic coming soon... sunrise/set and changing the hue of both (using the 0917660E PNG) to match the locale.

Cheers,
Daniel

Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Gobias on June 02, 2012, 02:37:34 PM
... Oh and BTW I should mention that the glare-alpha does not have to be a 128x128... like any terrain texture it can be larger to increase the detail if the detail is actually needed.  The game will always stretch the alpha to fit the may.  I used 1024's in my tests.
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Gobias on June 05, 2012, 03:54:04 AM
Took a quick break to work on beach textures.  Not 100% complete (closest zoom still has a small bit of a seam I need to clean up and it still feels a little too intense - I might try and normalize the contrast between the light and dark shadows in the sand some more...  but here's a preview...

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FNewCity-Jan2001338896472.png&hash=2b505e830a65769d3f166849531a7f90ec6fa14d)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FNewCity-Jan2001338896502.png&hash=9af79cc24dc323294ad876d47f2af6adf06b452f)
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: vortext on June 05, 2012, 11:05:46 AM
Interesting stuff going on here  :thumbsup:

The sunglare texture looks to be particular useful for a comprehensive water mod. As I understand it's basically an alpha texture applied all across the surface, right? If so, maybe it could be used to create more realistic waves. I could actually see that work much like the *yikes* example, albeit more subtle. ;)

The beach texture looks pretty decent already though it maybe somewhat out of place in mountainous terrain. Perhaps a rocky, gravel beach is more in order.

In any case, I'll be following this thread from now on, keep it up.
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Gobias on June 05, 2012, 03:56:44 PM
Quote from: vortext on June 05, 2012, 11:05:46 AM
The sunglare texture looks to be particular useful for a comprehensive water mod. As I understand it's basically an alpha texture applied all across the surface, right? If so, maybe it could be used to create more realistic waves. I could actually see that work much like the *yikes* example, albeit more subtle. ;)

Exactly correct, and that was the idea behind the "yikes" and several other tests with the glare - to use it as a map-wide wave texture rather than a sun-glare at all.  The "yikes" glare basically employed a photoshop ripple effect to see if we could add texture to the surface waves and mix that with a lighting effect.  Just came off way too strong though.  But it's an idea that I'll keep toying with as I go.

Quote from: vortext on June 05, 2012, 11:05:46 AM
The beach texture looks pretty decent already though it maybe somewhat out of place in mountainous terrain. Perhaps a rocky, gravel beach is more in order.

Yes, agreed it's a bit too sandy for mountain regions and I'll use something rockier when I get into more specifics with the three intended mods.  For right now I'm just experimenting with cleaning up the basic textures in my arsenal and making a few from scratch to replace the "borrowed" textures I've used from a few other mods in circulation.  The beach pictured above I made yesterday as a substitute for the popular "Sandy Beach Mod" that I've used since it's release - a tall order because that beach mod is superb.  Once I've got a good selection of 100%-Gobias textures ready to go I'll start going into detail about the three regions I'm focusing on and begin tailoring the mods for each.

Thanks for the reply! 
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: jdenm8 on June 06, 2012, 08:24:01 PM
That yikes example reminds me of the water in a certain RPG from 2006... It's very Gooey.

Great to see some progress here though, I had no idea the game employed greyscales like this to do things like glare.
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Gobias on June 07, 2012, 05:12:21 AM
Work continues up in the Alps of Switzerland.  I'm still in texture creation mode and moving back and forth between water, rock, beach and grass textures.  I almost have the full arsenal of textures completed.  A few quick shots of work-in-progress near the Schilthorn above Lauterbrunnen valley.

Don't mind the texture distribution or the color grading just yet... I still need to work more on the INI table to determine distribution and once the base BMPS are done I'll go through and finely match them to the Oberland terrain color-wise.  Also many many textures not on display here since I haven't worked them into the texture table yet.

But since I feel like posting images now that the "borrowed" textures are completely gone.  BMPS are now 100%-Gobias.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FNewCity-Jan2001339073591.png&hash=133fbc3a9260686ab728abf8374b926288da599c)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FNewCity-Jan2001339033546.png&hash=d32ce72716f33e468f38bf337a5fc147e7a2ef05)
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: whatevermind on June 08, 2012, 07:35:55 PM
Wow.  This is amazing, can't wait to see where you go with this.
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Gobias on June 09, 2012, 08:27:40 AM
Quick update.  Wanted to show a little progress on snow textures.  I've always thought there's room for better high-altitude texturing in the game and most people just use pure snow or rock in their game.  So I created some varied snow textures w/drifts for the region.

Since the Berner Oberland is a glacial region I thought why not try and blend a glacial texture into the game using the flatter portions of the terrain texture map?  Here's the result so far:

Glacial texture:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FNewCity-Jan3001339258006.png&hash=dd814d64c59a27931d423a7d70a8daefc4409b91)

... only applied at a certain altitude level and only applied on level terrain (not the highest rows but worked into the 8th and 9th columns of the snow-textured rows).
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FNewCity-Jan3001339258020.png&hash=d09c42f154d9f4367dc84180a68b1226f0483d40)

... and a little more texture in the snowy hills:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FNewCity-Jan2001339258136.png&hash=6eb24b3fd7917c92135a6d3506232421cc0dbe65)

... the tail end of the glacial flow blends into the rock and decends towards the grassy slopes of the Alps:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FNewCity-Jan2001339258096.png&hash=a831ef30e8164825b1105492900bbbcd9ef6af4f)

Anyway... I'll work a little more on this effect but it seems to work quite nicely and gives a little life to the high-altitude game textures.

Again, I'm aiming for a mega-update pretty soon to discuss my improved beach, water, rock textures tailored now for the Alps.  Also I'll show some of the testing I'm doing w/the texture INI table and the exemplars that control strength and fade-distance of terrain textures when blending.  Color-grading is underway to match my terrain w/ the region so perhaps some to show there.  Eventually lighting will come into play but not sure how far I'll get this weekend.

I'm off to the cinema w/spouse and friends...

Enjoy,
Daniel
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Gobias on June 10, 2012, 07:10:14 AM
First a little testing with the terrain INI.  I'm making the mods initially as non-seasonal (or weather-neutral) and once they're in good enough shape I'll attempt the weather-modding (no promises on results!).  So basically the terrain texture distribution is primarly goverened by:

- the Terrain INI texture map:  32 rows and 16 colums.  Rows correspond to temperature, but for our purposes since I've not yet attempted to regulate temperature in the simulator (and I've heard this isn't really do-able but I'll give it a go later on) then we can think of the rows as corresponding closely to elevation.  Fairly straightforward and allows us to blend in a snow cap pretty easily.  Columns move left to right from driest to wettest and here's where it gets a little trickier.  Without having yet played with the moisture simulator (Lowkee has done good work here in the past) if moisture is static then the center columns of the table (8-9) end up getting applied at the flattest slope of terrain.  The furthest columns - dry and wet - apply stronger to sloping terrain.  But it's more of a bell-curve since a slope can be either wet or dry depending on how the game applies moisture.  Better explained graphically.

I set up 6 flat textures (yellow, green, red, etc) and slapped a number on them 60-65 to display in-game.  I set up the INI table so that there is no difference in temperature ROWS but each texture applies only to select group of consecutive columns.

Displayed in game:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FNewCity-Jan4001339158030.png&hash=c9df3b7af42e6df26efbb8f55af49868faed90e3)

This allows me to see where the game is applying a certain column of moisture.  The yellow texture identifies that the center columns (8-9) of the table are mean-moisture and that the game identifies each side of a mountain range as either wet slope (blue-purple, or wettest columns) or a dry slope (orange and pink or the driest columns).

I'm still tinkering with the INI table and matching to the region as best I can - here's the work thus far.  I'm still working at the snow-cap blend but I will point out that this region has less progressive blending when it comes to snow... it's a pretty hard cap due to storm-activity in the mountains and shorter-seasons.
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FNewCity-Jan2001339335505.png&hash=6aad3faa2974e44c74e3140def29507255e296f2)

Other factors determining texture distribution:
-Terrain Properties MaxHeight:  this controls over what expanse of altitude the INI rows will be applied.  Raising the amount will spread the rows over higher altitude.  So one easy way we've always used to adjust a snow-cap without having to work on the INI table itself is to change this figure.  Lowering the max height will bring the snow cap lower but will also compress the distribution of all the non-snowcap rows across the map.  I'm using a map of the Berner-Oberland region and will match my INI and cap to that map for accuracy.  But I'll include a "snow-cap lowering" option since the BO-region is pretty dramatic in it's elevations and most maps would not reach heights capable of showing snow cover.

-Each texture has a Terrain exemplar which contains properties of texture blending strength and the zoom curve (or where the texture will fall off with distance.  Lowkee explains his testing on this subject quite extensively on his board so I won't go into detail here except to say that I'm utilizing the same principals of correcting the texture spread curve as he discovered.

- The texture tiling factor in the Terrain Properties exemplar is another biggie and, again, Lowkee's thread gives the details of his extensive work with this property.  I'm employing a similar concept w/hi-res textures (all 1024's) with my mod.

In other areas (yeah, sorry I bounce around a lot - keeps my interest level up so as not to get frustrated with one area of the mod) here's a little work on beach and water textures:

At high zoom, less wave texture which I feel is more photo-real:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FNewCity-Jan2001339334827.png&hash=d0cec03e99794fd6df1bfdd0b49cd725f36e8ab2)

Once you get closer the wave detail becomes more apparent.  A few quick props thrown in for scale.  Also, this is not a wavy surface as this is glacial lake, not ocean.  Lake Thun and Brienz are pretty calm.  And YES they are that bright blue/teal:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FNewCity-Jan2001339335099.png&hash=c05be7af91d00e9522bdb40585a96a47d0510305)

The beach texture has been darkened and is less sandy.  There really is very little beach in these areas as the tree-line in most places comes right to shore so I reduced the beach width and beach altitude in the Terrain properties to show a short, shallow beach.

Also created a 14-shore texture to match the water color of the glacial streams flowing into the lakes in the area.  The mod will display stream color as such:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FNewCity-Jan3001339335399.png&hash=c067830e9d141e068efa2590dfb9b9f2996dc5bf)

Also, before you say "Geez that grass is bright green!" yep the terrain in the region is also vividly bright.  Here's a shot I took last fall for reference:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FIMG_1879.jpg&hash=431ea21f8e9ecb330c813f86cb389794fa259c09)

That's it for now... more work on the INI table to match to the region and then I might tackle lighting next weekend.
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Kergelen on June 10, 2012, 12:07:23 PM
Amazing terrain works. I love how you are developing Berner Oberland Mod. The glacial texture looks great. &apls

Interlaken and surroundings is one of my favourite natural place I've ever been in Europe and I have some parts (Lauterbrunen, Murren,..) in my region map
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: noahclem on June 10, 2012, 12:33:32 PM
Really exciting work  &apls

I'll be following this closely  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Gobias on June 16, 2012, 04:41:36 AM
Busy week - haven't had time to update.  But I have been working "behind the scenes" on the modding.  A few random bits and then perhaps later this weekend I'll have time to produce a more in-depth update.

First, based on Lowkees research regarding texture tiling I experimented with this property to make sure my textures matched seamlessly at the edge of my map (which they do):

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2Ftest09765hi.png&hash=e26045d19a3c321cc900dbf4716897f372410ebe)

I used a .09765xxx tiling factor whereas Lowkee uses half that for the Appalachian (.04x and change).  Personally I prefer the results of applying a little less "stretch" to my textures with a .097 rate but it really depends on how close of a zoom you create your textures with... otherwise details like rocks can look either way too large or much too small.  This is a good balance for me.

Another area I've been working on is detail textures, eg flowery meadows, crumbling stones, etc.  Wife and I are headed out to the park this morning where I (armed with camera and alterior-motive!) will try and shoot a few elements I'm still looking to turn into detail textures.  When I get those totally cleaned up I'll show some work there.  Since I was showing a little work on the glacier texture before here's another go at it:

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FNewCity-Jan2001339589051.png&hash=db00fbc9db6356a6f729c14a278a52dc4e8f7bb4)

It's still tough though to get the texture to apply just the way I want it to only on the flat terrain, and I think if I open this mod up seasonally instead of creating a single-season "stagnant" mod then the moisture simulator could really throw a wrench into that plan.  Already we get some unintended texture placement even if I create the INI as non-seasonal... so you get the glacier texture MOSTLY displaying on the valley surface but also  occasionally showing up on the side of a cliff:

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FNewCity-Jan2001339590676.png&hash=211c0f164413c0c67eb81ae7b3b7439e67f35e94)

Still worth going for?  Thoughts?

Anyway, it's a nice effect and I'll keep playing with it.

I've also started working with the moisture and temp properties and - wow - yeah it's going to take a lot of tinkering to get anything passable.  The concept all makes sense but like the glacial texture example above there can be pretty messy results no matter how you play with it.  The game's concept of moisture and temp distribution isn't quite well suited to making the mod seasonal but perhaps with more fine-tuning I can get something that gets close enough.  Much more to come later on with that topic.

And yet another area I've been exploring is lighting.  We'll deal with this on several fronts:  day/night color adjustments to water surface, the lighting-transition PNG which controls the hue and timing of daylight/nightlight, and the shadow and sun settings which affect everything from terrain/flora shadow length/intensity/angle.

For right now let's just cover nightlight.

PNG 0917660E controls the color/hue of lighting throughout the day and by manipulating it you can produce not only darker night color but even change the shading of sunrise/set and adjust the length of day.  My intention is only to have an option in the installer of using a slightly reduced sunset-intensity as I feel the red in the MAXIS sunset is a little too strong and tropical.  I could create both a MAXIS and DARKNIGHT version if desired.  To the lab!:

Here's the original MAXIS PNG.  Note that night-time is lighter blue and the length of day is quite long - from left to right the game will display these hues as global lighting colors as the clock progresses:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FOriginal.png&hash=c6392318ae19266a23fab6b1d8e84c1a4daaa96c)

So first I tried changing the length of day.  Worked like a charm.  Sun rises at 2PM and sets promptly at 7PM.  If you set your lighting to permanent "DAY" in game then the color of noon (which is now night-color) gets displayed.  Interesting:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2Friseat2.png&hash=3a45e0e7e35b22d11380aff4a72e18acbde9b878)

So I decided to push the limits a bit and change the whole darn thing to GREEN.  Sun rise and set are shaded green.  Daytime has a hint of green in it.  Nighttime - a dark green instead of MAXIS purply-blue.
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2Fgreentest.png&hash=9839a366166673d315ffd88f2e1290f950b2a825)

And the result:
Day is a little minty:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FNewCity-Jan4001339846737.png&hash=de61ba16d8917194f1beaace439813619fffcfc7)

Sunset:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FNewCity-Jan4001339846720.png&hash=e2fb9329f69bf7792038427215018f2eff5ddb18)

And night:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FNewCity-Jan4001339846749.png&hash=651b66fe6dfc4ff1dc05d977113f9e82ec624483)

Very curious.  Again, in the end my intention is really only to have the option of slightly reducing the "redness" of sunset in my mods which I feel needs to be muted a little in an Alpine setting.  Something like this, which is a minor alteration of Simfox's darknight:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FRelaxed.png&hash=e260dce02b81c4f057befe08e1b5b47b5856229e)

The effects are subtle and add just the right reduction to the intensity of a red sunset that I was looking for.

Now when it comes to changing the nightcolor I personally like Simfox's Darknight as opposed to the MAXIS night.  On my PC I use a slightly altered version of the Simfox PNG with a little dash of extra-darkness in the deepest hours of night as compared to Simfox's mod.  But as I'm not a BAT'er I don't know how much my changing the color of night, even slightly, would affect their modelling?

So - BAT'er feel free to chime in - should I stay away from tinkering with nightcoloring, even if the adjustments are subtle?
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: JoeST on June 16, 2012, 10:00:50 AM
PNG 0917660E is quite an interesting one, it seems. does changes in the other axis have any effect on things?
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: epicblunder on June 16, 2012, 12:38:06 PM
I'm really digging the glacial effect.  Keep up the good work!
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Gobias on June 16, 2012, 12:49:22 PM
Quote from: JoeST on June 16, 2012, 10:00:50 AM
PNG 0917660E is quite an interesting one, it seems. does changes in the other axis have any effect on things?
Good point Joe - Haven't tried changing the vertical axis yet but I'll add it to my to-do list.  There's also another PNG out there 0917660F that is almost identical to the -E PNG but a little darker and must have something to do with day-night color but I've tried manipulating it and it's had no effect.  If anyone knows what the deal is with that PNG let me know.  My first guess was that it might be connected to the region-view snapshot that gets taken whenever you save a city but that apparently isn't the case.

In the meantime I also have been playing w/shadows and sun-pitch.  The Berner Oberland has a general sun pitch of around 20 degrees up from the z-axis at it's lowest in January and gets as high as around 67 degrees on the longest days of June.  Maxis defaults at around 45 which is suitable for the mod however I still wanted to tinker with these settings to see the effect of anything from around 35-40 degrees which would be spring-time and snow-melt around March-April.

Reducing the sun-pitch in the game can create a really nice hill-shadow effect that really brings out the depth in a mountain terrain.

At 45 degrees you get some hill shadowing:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FNewCity-Jan2001339875075.png&hash=1f685a0e8946d6f86c5548bc82693f144bb3c868)

But drop it down in the upper 20's to low 30's and you get those long winter-shadows that look real atmospheric:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FNewCity-Jan2001339874921.png&hash=5df3dbfea26af7c63f42aa9e638e086d40e0cf0e)

But as Lowkee warned this has a negative consequence as it affects model shadows and can "tear" the shadow on the ground.  Even at 42 degrees just a slight change in sun-pitch rips model shadows.  Notice my trees below look like a collection of "Terrence and Philip" dolls!:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FNewCity-Jan3001339877321.png&hash=df3740eb72eb427094db21a7f42e811eaed09746)

So... not sure if I'll bother to utilize the pitch property and that's too bad because it'd be even more relevant when I work on the Highlands or Icelandic landscapes.  Thoughts?  Pros of depth greater than the cons of modelling shadows or just leave it alone?  Any opinions are welcome. 
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: vortext on June 16, 2012, 02:59:59 PM
Quote from: Gobias on June 16, 2012, 12:49:22 PM
Notice my trees below look like a collection of "Terrence and Philip" dolls!

Pull my finger   :P

Anyhow some time ago I've tinkered with the shadow angle as well and it seemed to depend on the BATs themselved wether or not tearing occured, though it happened more often than not so probably best to leave that be.

As for the glacier texture imho the tiling is more of an issue than the actual placement  ::)

The night texture seems pretty straightforward, should be fun to play around with. To the lab indeed!  ;D
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Girafe on June 16, 2012, 03:07:41 PM
job is going on  ;)

Some tests I did long time ago about glacier texture in addition to PTM:

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ld-host.de%2Fuploads%2Fimages%2F2206ba57a986f541c4e583f5026bffcd.jpg&hash=11334ebf02765e5a209e355588b89864f1460dc9)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ld-host.de%2Fuploads%2Fimages%2F3f9658ab27e11d9cf457cbc104c87a75.jpg&hash=2d9fbd3635e68323fc6d13f3eb30d27b2193e990)
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: mrbisonm on June 16, 2012, 08:21:41 PM
Love that last picture!!!! Great!
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: DAB_City on June 17, 2012, 04:10:46 AM
And this is SimCity 4? *Jaw drops straight off*
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Gobias on June 17, 2012, 08:22:02 AM
Working on a few detail textures, scaling properly at each zoom and testing changes to the zoom strength so that the textures drop off a bit more sharply at zoom 4.  Too much blending on detail textures at high zoom causes things like rocks (esp limestone and light colored rocks) to have a "ghosted" affect as they blend against darker grass textures.

I'm still re-revising several of my textures I'm not 100% satisfied with so... more to come.  Over the next week or so I'll spend more time tinkering with the INI table and I'll start testing out a seasonal mod.  I played with it a little bit last week to learn more about moisture changes but it's almost time to dive all the way in.  No promises if the weather mod ends up in the final product.  Until then... a few examples of what I'm working on:

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FNewCity-Jan2001339948352.png&hash=96f1bab53b5030249868880d7062fff676386514)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FNewCity-Jan2001339948212.png&hash=6f7b0afd7655e82ec9d9d2ac28236abe740b641f)

Ignore the brush as it's not very "Alp"-y... I just threw that in for scale...
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FNewCity-Jan2001339948159.png&hash=4407392575f2e766eb355d2a6bac6fa06407013d)

The rocky texture is still a bit "temporary" as I find it a little too grainy.  That's something I still need to clean up.
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FNewCity-Jan2001339942597.png&hash=562aa921d2a82bfc1a5346e5de65d182d55b97ff)

And the meadow could use a sharper resolution... I'll try and shoot some better samples next weekend and photoshop them up a little better.
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FNewCity-Jan2001339943232.png&hash=41c4db4322be4aa61e1de82ee37563574097f78d)

That's it for this weekend.  Gotta get back to real-life for a while.  Next update will probably be weather-mod testing.
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Buzzit on June 17, 2012, 09:31:20 AM
omg thats unbelievablely pretty  :o
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: noahclem on June 17, 2012, 11:22:50 AM
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fakiwood.com%2Ffamily-blog%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F04%2Fterrance-and-phillip.jpg&hash=f4379363307fac33fe488a705f511a5e5f0b5cb0)

:D

Fantastic and unique-looking textures  &apls &apls  It's a shame you're running into those troubles with the elongated shadows. I live around the Arctic Circle and would enjoy the option of longer shadows. Nice you're exploring these parameters anyway  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Gobias on June 23, 2012, 05:59:55 AM
As usual I didn't get a lot done during the week but hope to have a decent update before the weekend is out...

noahclem:  yeah, shame about the shadow-tearing.  Although I even notice some tearing occuring even at 45 degrees.  Me personally I don't mind it that much and I feel like in certain cases the "atmospheric" benefits of stronger hill shadows outweight the cons of a few model shadow tears but I understand that not everyone would agree.  Perhaps I could always include an optional installable dat to lengthen the hill shadows when I tackle the Highlands/Icelandic mod (still haven't decided specifically which region I'm going to model it on though they both share similar terrain characteristics) and include a disclaimer that it's known to tear model shadows.  User's choice?

girafe: thanks for the screenshots.  Glad you've taken note of my little project.  Your BAT work and especially the flora are, in my opinion, some of the best work ever to be done on SC4. 

And thanks to the rest for the interest in my project here...

So... the weather mod... not so sure this one's going to be do-able.  The biggest problems I'm running into are:
a) It seems the Lowkee-approach is the best way to go - manipulating moisture change.  But the way the game thinks of moisture isn't exactly well-suited to simulating things like snow fall.  The game is always looking for wet/dry slopes and moisture in valleys instead of on cliffs.  And so when I attempt to simulate change w/snowfall from winter to spring I get really messy looking terrain:

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FNewCity-Jan14001339983321.png&hash=268828f6651857272b183f332aa0da7b06c65b8d)

The snow melts on one side of the valley but not the other.  And in some areas, steeper valleys, it's hard to get rid of it altogether and it lingers in depressions in the terrain.  Because the game doesn't know it's snow - it's just moisture. 

b) other problem has to do with the use of a wide range of textures.  If I consider the INI table a standalone snapshot of a terrain in a non-seasonal mod I can put in little detail textures.  Rocky terrain, flowery meadows, glacier textures up in the mountains... and that works.  But once you activate variations in moisture that whole table starts to shift as moisture shifts with the seasons and all of a sudden a texture previously displayed as detail suddenly takes over your landscape.  This is especially problematic w/the blended-rocky textures I'd use between the snow-cap and the grass... when the seasons change it descends down the mountains and takes over the tops of my hills.  Just looks like a complete mess:

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FNewCity-May9001339983012.png&hash=6d7cdff1fdfdf9d1997ea682d0decb92052407be)

With the right amount of tinkering w/the INI I might be able to clean some of that up but I think it would cause me to opt to limit the # of textures I'd use in order to keep the season changes civil and cooperative.  The testing I've done in these pics utilized 3 textures only:  1 each of snow, rock and grass.  And even that was hard to wrangle.

A third issue would of course be water-related.  No way to change the water texture that I can see... so if I bring the snowline down to the shore in winter then the obvious problem occurs w/the look of summer-lake texture next to snow:

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FNewCity-Jan2001339982816.png&hash=468f23287980cc8156074094fc5c69e8fcda3c83)

... Anyway, not sure that's going to be workable but I'll keep playing with it for a little while.

As for the state of the mod let me sum up where I'm at:  It's about 98% done.  What I've got left:

* Just 3 textures I'm going to take another stab at improving.  Mine are suitable but I think I can improve them.  I think I've got 26 or 28 in the mod right now and the total file-size is very similar to the Appalachian.  FYI the range I'm using is C0-D9 to avoid conflicts with the Appalachian and the Pyrenean.

* Still tinkering with the INI table to match everything up to the region as best I can.  This is mostly done and should be finished within the week.

* I need to make an installer I suppose - never tried that one before.  Can anyone recommend a tutorial?  I think there's a thread for that stickied around here somewhere...

* Today I'm going to work on making some MAXIS base texture replacements for the residential grass textures and a few farm fields... since the Oberland textures are quite a bit brighter than normal the game lots look oddly dark in contrast.  So to complete the look I thought it'd be a good idea to blend the lots w/the grass textures.  A few shots of the grass textures BEFORE I get underway with this.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FLungern-Apr24031340409147.png&hash=a9a86af634faee2c0da7e6223dd962d03ab45613)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FGupfi-Mar29171340409788.png&hash=4ffe9080a04ba11310546f3b54e7668387de787a)

In the second shot there you can see what I mean about the base textures along the road.  The sidewalks (all 3 wealth levels) I probably can't do anything about without re-doing the NAM completely!  But as long as I knock out the RES and FARM grass textures I think most of the look will be improved.

(Also if you look closely at those pics you might notice a few other mods I've made in the past... the very base of the Manchou house in 1st pic shows a little retaining wall I made.  I replaced the MAXIS default retaining walls w/a set of european stones/cobbled-stone walls... the sidewalk textures, a maxis-tree replacement mod where I subbed Girafe's flora for the maxis default oaks, palms, etc.  And also a street texture replacement mod that uses the SAM asphalt textures to replace the MAXIS grey-streets automatically.) 

Ok - so I'm off to make some base textures and finish the INI.  Getting pretty close to complete now.  If there's enough interest out there for release I'll go for LEX candidacy? 

Cheers,
Daniel
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Gobias on June 24, 2012, 06:22:20 AM
Almost finished.  Base texture replacements are complete and turned out pretty decent.  INI is done.  Textures re-graded a bit and only a few last bits to take care of.  I've still got to make an installer, fix up a low-altitude plugin and test it and make one more pass at a texture I want to clean up.  Likely I'll tackle that next weekend.

In the mean time... some PNGs of the nearly-finished product.  Should be the last time I show the mod before it's done.  Enough interest for a release?  Any final critique?:

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2F1.jpg&hash=71ef6f4b695c3b45359f965396abe99624b291ec)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2F2.jpg&hash=d487f6e9c0b6c6b6a5d0a2e5c9246794d0677a78)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FNewCity-Jan3001340540184.jpg&hash=74b0b4a91cc80dcf2b7e3de72dcd936ddae5ad45)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FNewCity-Jan2001340537744.jpg&hash=15b66d797c6ae80a779bbafc577e69ae4918827e)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FNewCity-Nov6131340499346.jpg&hash=7a41a80c1be7a48a4655cf3169e481c5d7a1ad36)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FNewCity-Jan3001340540325.jpg&hash=cf6d5e173196987cdcd44a6bd90ff0f9791f4a77)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2F3.jpg&hash=63071b85daab64c8c9449b950598c01d4a4b6225)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FNewCity-Jan2001340540547.jpg&hash=f810761538d3ab5e4080655e24e25467390447dd)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FNewCity-Jan3001340497926.jpg&hash=830f5743e713372a91533ddb46d63012aff13fa2)

Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: RickD on June 27, 2012, 12:52:59 AM
The terrain mod looks great in the pictures. Especially the glacier effect.  &apls But I would have to try it in my game for more detailed feedback.
It does not fit in my current region, but I would love to use it in another one. I'll definitely give it a try when you release it.
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Kergelen on June 27, 2012, 02:50:53 AM
The textures looks really nice.
The glacier, the rocks with grass and the high attitude textures all seems very appropriate. &apls
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: noahclem on June 27, 2012, 02:54:15 AM
Just spectacular  &apls

I was a bit unsure about the Oberland texture brightness--not because it doesn't look great but because I was worried about it fitting in. The steps you're taking to resolve that issue make this mod even more attractive.

An option on the longer shadows sounds like a great way to go.

As for the LEX candidacy, please go for it!

Finally, would you consider sharing your street mod? I think there's a lot of interest  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: vester on June 27, 2012, 03:23:54 AM
Looks great.


You can easy save on the file size on the pictures. By saving them as jpg with 80 % quality/compression ratio the file size can cut to 10%.
I use the free program IrfanView (http://www.irfanview.com/) for fast view and file conversion. It even do batch conversion.
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: mrbisonm on June 27, 2012, 10:33:36 AM
Quote from: Gobias on June 23, 2012, 05:59:55 AM
If there's enough interest out there for release I'll go for LEX candidacy? 

I am waiting for just that!!! Great job!

Fred
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Gobias on June 27, 2012, 05:11:22 PM
Sorry haven't had a chance to get much done during the work week.  Still have to make an installer (and I've never made an NSIS before, usually just use the old clickteam wizard.  But since this will have optional components I'll have to write a script), the readme, and a few small administrative details to clean up and test before it's up for scrutiny.  Should happen this weekend if all goes well and then I'm at the mercy of the LEX.

Thanks all for the responses and:

vester:  thanks for the tip on compression - I was wondering about that.  I read somewhere around here that PNG was preferred to JPEG for keeping bandwidth down but since I tried your tip w/Irfanview I can see the filesize is much smaller... I'll do that from now on.  thanks!

noah:  thanks and I will probably add the shadow option to the installer w/disclaimer about slight tearing.  As for the street mod I suppose I would consider releasing it but a lot would have to go into that.  First off the textures are the same as the asphalt SAM textures - I merely reappropriated them w/MAXIS instances to override the street textures since I prefer to plop street w/the MAXIS tool instead of the SAM tool... just my preference.  I replaced all of the wide radius and diagonal puzzle pieces and created a few extra pieces myself to fill out the set.  But I'd have to get permission to release it since most of the fsh's aren't mine.  Also there are probably a few rare puzzle pieces that I didn't make so to make sure the set was complete there'd be some work there to clean it up to release-standards.  I'd consider doing that but might be a little ways down the to-do list.  And if I were to do it I might rather just make a new street mod from scratch as those textures are starting to look a little low-res and dated.  But as anyone knows who has tried making a street mod there are a LOT of puzzle pieces that need to be made... it's a big job.  Perhaps it'll be a project when I'm ready for a terrain break.

On brightness I agree at first I was a little unsure how the brighter grass textures would play in game since most lots are set up w/darker bases.  Changing the base textures made a big difference.  See below and sorry the tileset isn't very "swiss" but you'll get the idea.  I changed the grass textures that appear on residential lots, parks, cemetaries and the like and also a few of the farmfields that default on the MAXIS farms:

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FNewCity-Dec10011340554087.jpg&hash=2800cb1d250b3cfae5007ffd051b1076afac29cc)
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: epicblunder on June 27, 2012, 06:07:41 PM
Your terrain mod is looking quite impressive, Gobias.   &apls

I just have one concern with fiddling with the shadows: are you doing so within the lighting exemplar or is that something in the terrain exemplar or somewhere else?  I ask because simfox's day'n'night mod uses the lighting exemplar.  I don't know the nuts and bolts of how his mod actually works, i just worry that including the same exemplar in your terrain mod might conflict with Dark Night.  Just thought I'd throw that out there as something you might want to do a quick test of before release.

I also really look forward to seeing what you can do with the other two environments you mentioned in your opening post, especially the pacific northwest. (if you plan to continue along that line)   ;D

Again, excellent work so far and best of luck.
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Girafe on June 28, 2012, 04:38:03 AM
Work is really nice.

The only thing I am not sure about, is the green color. For me it's a little bit too blue.

Keep going in this way  ;)
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Gobias on June 28, 2012, 04:43:48 AM
Quote from: epicblunder on June 27, 2012, 06:07:41 PM
I just have one concern with fiddling with the shadows: are you doing so within the lighting exemplar or is that something in the terrain exemplar or somewhere else?  I ask because simfox's day'n'night mod uses the lighting exemplar.  I don't know the nuts and bolts of how his mod actually works, i just worry that including the same exemplar in your terrain mod might conflict with Dark Night.  Just thought I'd throw that out there as something you might want to do a quick test of before release.
Fear not on the lighting issue:  the mod will be compatible with both Simfox's Dark Night and the standard Maxis night.  Here's how it works:

Simfox's Dark Night has several components (light cones and such) but the core elements that produce the dark night effect are the PNG I discussed on page 1 of this thread and the lighting properties exemplar.  For the purposes of the mod I will provide an OPTIONAL installable replacement to both of these files for Dark Night and Maxis Night using mostly the same settings that Simfox/Maxis use in those pairs of files but manipulating just a few key properties. 

For those who want to use it I'll provide 2 optional PNGs that slightly reduce the redness of sunset but retain the Simfoxines and Maxis-y qualities of the rest of day/night coloring.  So the only change the user will see is a subtle change relaxing the intensity of sunset.

As for the lighting exemplar this file is required for the mod but I'll provide several options in the installer for Dark/Maxis users:
- Dark Night Option:  will retain all of Simfoxes settings with only a few variations:  eg. changes only the water night color RGB which is custom'd to the Berner Oberland water texture.   
- Maxis Night Option:  pretty much the same concept. 
-Dark Night w/Shadows:  same as above but also lowers the sun angle slightly to produce longer shadows - no effect to day/night quality.
-Maxis Night w/Shadows:  same concept.

The options should keep all users happy and maintain the look of dark or Maxis night.  Me, personally I'm a dark-night user so I was careful to retain that look w/the mod.  Also, I didn't want to mess too much with lighting since BAT'ers tailor their models to fit these light schemes.
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: epicblunder on June 28, 2012, 01:03:49 PM
Heh looks like you've got it all thought out and covered   :thumbsup:

I'm going to have to whip up a couple alpine maps to have something 'proper' to test this on...
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Gobias on June 28, 2012, 05:56:51 PM
Quote from: Girafe on June 28, 2012, 04:38:03 AM
The only thing I am not sure about, is the green color. For me it's a little bit too blue.
I have been pretty careful about matching the texture colors to photos I've taken in the region but I do agree perhaps a little bit of correction could be made to get even closer.  I'll run a quick test this weekend with a small reduction in blue-ishness and see how it looks.

It's a tricky color to get right because in full sun it's SOOOO bright green up there in the Alps that if you match exactly to the photos taken it almost looks surreal in the game.  So I've tried to find the right balance between getting the colors to match accurately but not being too extreme in the game.  The pic below I took last September in Lauterbrunnen is a good example.  Stunningly bright green grass.  The other factor is that a lot of models, esp trees, start to look too dark against the brighter grass.  So I think I've found a pretty good balance that works but I'll see about taking the blue down a tiny bit and see what happens.  Changing the base textures I think went a long way to helping blend in with the rest of the game objects.

Meanwhile if anyone out there feels like BATing up a nice Swiss Chalet?  ;)   

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FIMG_1732.jpg&hash=07b7547ddf4e425509fc9372be414b06aeef76d8)
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Gobias on June 30, 2012, 11:06:19 AM
Just wanted to post a quick update.  Last few details are taking a little longer than expected but in the end what I'm doing today should give the player a little more flexibility.  I'm also fine-tuning a few things.

- Readme is done
- Maxis-Night properties are complete
- Made an optional "No Snow" INI for users who want to have only rocky terrain at high-alt
- Made an optional "No Glacier" INI if you simply don't want to use that texture
- Made a Hi and Low altitude plugin since I'm modelling the Hi (true-to-region) using Nichter's Bernese Oberland map (STEX) which is a lot more mountainous than most maps users will probably play with.  The low-altitude plugin will bring the 32 rows of texture distribution down considerably so that the rocky/snowy textures will still display on less mountainous maps of that's what you're using.
- Also slightly reduced the brightness on the water textures a little bit to match to the region.  I know I'm getting picky here but might as well do it before release.

Also to the Girafe:  I dialed down the "blue" on the textures by a small amount and I agree it's a good improvement.  I don't have an in-game image to show but the final product will include the adjustment.  Now I'll go back and make the same adjustments to the base-texture replacements.

After I adjust the base textures I've just got one more pass on a texture that's bugging me, then to write the installer.  Might push me into next weekend... we'll see how it goes.
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Girafe on June 30, 2012, 11:20:31 AM
Wait for testing this new terrain mod  ;)
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: JayStimson on July 02, 2012, 12:26:59 PM
I like the grass color the way it is although it needs a bit of texture. You could try muting the color a bit and see if you like the color better.
The work with the snow however looks great. Looking forward to seeing more.
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Gobias on July 04, 2012, 01:47:49 PM
I feel like Lt. Columbo here... "one more thing"... but I truly am extremely close to being done.  Still have a few small details to experiment with and it'll be ready to go but believe me the last week or so I've spent perfecting little things will really pay dividends.  I don't like giving ETAs but I've got a 5 day weekend starting today so should, barring disaster, be enough time to have it up for the scrutineers by the end of this coming Sunday.  Plus it's stunningly hot outside and I'm not much feeling like going outdoors.

JayStimson:  no need to worry, the color adjustment is very very slight and, yes, I do think it was a good change, not just doing it per the request of others if it isn't merited.  But I'm perfectly happy taking suggestions from the community and trying them out.  In this case the end-game here is to get as close as possible to real-world region color palette.  Regarding your suggestion of more detail in the grass... a few things to say about that.  I also tested upping the grass detail and made a few improvements in this regard.  However ultimately my textures have round-about the same level of detail in them as the Appalachian.  The difference is the tiling factor where the Appalachian (using a .04) basically zooms in on it's textures twice as close as my mod (using a .09).  The effect of this, in my opinion, can create an over-abundance of detail especially in grass which can look "messy" if I over-do it.  I try and balance realism (where you would see very little detail in further zooms hovering thousands of feet over the ground) with a good look for the game and IMO the best way to do that is to create detailed textures but ease back on the tiling factor so that it really looks like you're viewpoint is far enough above the terrain.

Epicblunder:  Yes, by all means more Alpine maps could never be a bad thing!  I'd also recommend the Bernese Oberland map on the STEX (nichter85's) which is the map I'm using to customize the details of this mod.  When using the "Authentic" settings on my mod (equivalent to high-altitude plugin) the snow cap and rock levels should match the real terrain very closely.  It's also a great map to play on with level areas for city building, two large lakes (Thun and Brienz) and a very impressive array of mountains to bring out the details of the mod.

Ok - so back to work for me. 

Cheers,
Daniel
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Gobias on July 04, 2012, 02:30:41 PM
Oh and a quick region-view teaser...  the lovely Jungfrau, Monch and Eiger before the valleys of Grindelwald and Lauterbrunnen.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2Fcapture_001_04072012_161847.jpg&hash=5e7e56f498df6a9627dd00c4fc49dc2aee49fb8c)
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: whatevermind on July 04, 2012, 05:18:28 PM
Wow, getting caught up, and you've done a lot while I've been away, so some of my comments have already been addressed, but anyway.

I agree about the option of the shadows effect - some will mind the tearing, some won't - but I agree the dramatic lighting is something that some will really appreciate.  If this option works as a standalone file (ie with other terrain mods) even better (though I wouldn't worry if it doesn't).

Quote from: Gobias on June 23, 2012, 05:59:55 AM
The snow melts on one side of the valley but not the other.  And in some areas, steeper valleys, it's hard to get rid of it altogether and it lingers in depressions in the terrain.  Because the game doesn't know it's snow - it's just moisture.
While I can see this being annoying in game, it is very true to life.  Snow does indeed melt on one side and not the other, and sometimes lingers for months in sheltered areas.

I like the idea of doing the Maxis texture replacements - it's something that can really mess with the look of a terrain mod, and it looks like your solution takes care of this.

Love the pictures from your 6/24 post, looks like something out of National Geographic or a travel magazine, especially the last one..."here the lonely mountain antelope gazes out over the barren valley at sunset."  I too would be interested in seeing more of that (or similar) street mod if you become interested in developing that for release.  I don't currently use SAM, but something that just overrode the Maxis streets to spruce them up a little would catch my interest.

And, as it seems to already be decided, I definitely support you going for release and getting this beauty on the LEX.  Excellent work in developing a beautiful terrain mod and experimenting and pushing the boundaries of what we can do with this game.  Good job!
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Gobias on July 08, 2012, 02:56:49 PM
Ugh.  See that's why I shouldn't predict ETAs... other life stuff caught up to me this weekend.  Still got about 80% done of what I intended but need one or two more sessions to finish.  Apologies for inching my way to the finish-line but I'd rather get it done right than rush the end.  Hoping to finish mid-week or worst case early next weekend.
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: HappyDays on July 08, 2012, 05:07:14 PM
Stop giving time tables. <_<

Now you'll get run over by llamas or something.
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: noahclem on July 09, 2012, 09:17:53 AM
Quote from: HappyDays on July 08, 2012, 05:07:14 PM
Stop giving time tables. <_<

Now you'll get run over by llamas or something.

I agree (especially about the llamas). But seriously, there's no reason to trouble yourself over days, weeks, or even months for a creation certain to be enjoyed over a period of years. Tweaking is looking great and you're really doing something spectacular here.
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Gobias on July 14, 2012, 06:00:53 AM
Hey folks - pleased to announce that the mod itself is done.  Spent this morning testing the optional plugins.  Just need to see about writing an installer and make a few quick changes to the readme I already put together to account for some adjustments I made in the last 2 weeks.  I've never written an NSIS installer before and this might get a little complicated since the mod has several optional components.  But we'll give it a go... sorry for the recent delays.  Some unexpected health issues in the family requiring attention the last few weeks.  I'd have preferred it to have been llamas.   :)  But all will be well (or as well as it can be).  Still have a bit of that going on this weekend but will update as soon as the files are available.  Shouldn't be too long if the installer cooperates.

Cheers,
Daniel
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Gobias on July 16, 2012, 06:32:41 PM
All done.  Started a LEX candidacy thread and link has been PM'd to the moderator.  That NSIS installer was a nasty bit of business as there were dozens of different combinations of install options to account for.  Gotta thank Lowkee on that one since he had a copy of an NSIS script file attached to one of his threads... served as a very useful guide once I dissected it.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2F38.jpg&hash=0d4ff009f3e1130c4e4e0eb57d433e66df4f461f)
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Girafe on July 17, 2012, 04:52:07 AM
Looks promising, can't wait to test it
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: vortext on July 17, 2012, 09:36:30 AM
Hadn't checked in here for a while, the region shot looks spectacular.  &apls

On a sidenote, is this the first in a series of terrain mods as stated in one of your earliest posts? Or are you done making terrain controllers? Either way, I'm looking forward to the Berner Oberland mod being available.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: art128 on July 17, 2012, 09:56:37 AM
Fantastic work on your terrain mod. It's really looking great. I might even give it a try. ;)
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Gobias on July 17, 2012, 06:08:11 PM
Quote from: vortext on July 17, 2012, 09:36:30 AM
On a sidenote, is this the first in a series of terrain mods as stated in one of your earliest posts? Or are you done making terrain controllers? Either way, I'm looking forward to the Berner Oberland mod being available.  :thumbsup:
Still planning to continue with the series but of course I'll see what the reception is once this first mod hits the LEX.  If there's still interest in the others I'll likely continue but not sure which style would be up next.

I may take a little break to clean up a few other smaller cosmetic mods for release.  In particular I have a few sidewalk and retaining wall mods that are pretty simple enough and might be useful in European cities.  I might also do a series of water mods for different locales first.  And, who knows, maybe something with the street textures as has been requested?

But I'm quite certain I'll take a stab at more terrain; just not sure in what order.  When I do I'll likely try and get a lot of behind the scenes work done first with textures before announcing anything so that I don't hit too many roadblocks like I did at the tail-end of this recent stretch.
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Gobias on July 21, 2012, 03:24:56 PM
So while I await critique on the Berner Oberland mod I thought I'd go ahead and do a little proof-of-concept on a new terrain.  Planning on doing something Highlands/Icelandic (both landscapes share similar palettes) and I think I'll focus in on Iceland being the target area there.

These are just temporary textures (using a few Swiss textures; just the least-zoom) but are re-graded to test the color palette and I quickly sketched up a new INI to blend in a little more rock and dirt than the Oberland.  Still not totally sure that this will be the next project but wanted to see how the test would look.  The result:

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2F22.jpg&hash=77ceb4a7c636d0e749aa7dff7af01975b550f51b)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2F55.jpg&hash=3347fa08e0ea3a11765ce81668381f6ef2cd26ed)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2F33.jpg&hash=171d763b60a0cba0589a057965e23e376fb74f70)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2F44.jpg&hash=f05ed34792baae5840662222af0a721983c9df57)
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Gobias on September 08, 2012, 08:53:18 AM
Just to update on the status of the Berner Oberland mod.  It was finished mid-July but mods had some issues getting it on the private LEX; perhaps file size but not sure why.  I finally got around to splitting the file up today into separate texture packs and main mod so we'll see if that solves the problem.  Re-sent the split files to the mods today.

Sorry for the delay - August was unkind to me and time just flew right by.
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: noahclem on September 08, 2012, 12:44:39 PM
That's great to hear! You're really creating something fantastic here. The last picture is particularly beautiful, btw  &apls
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: art128 on September 10, 2012, 02:05:18 PM
Your terrain works really are amazing. You did an excellent job with this terrain mod so far. I wish you good luck with the next steps. ;)
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Gobias on September 15, 2012, 02:13:20 PM
art128 & noahclem:  thanks both!

While waiting for mods to determine what's causing the Berner Oberland to fail upload on the private LEX I've been tinkering with a few things.

First off - the Berner Oberland mod itself... due to the technical difficulties with the LEX I invited a small handful of users via PM to test the darned thing - might as well get a little feedback while I wait.  I made a few minor improvements including enhancing a little texture in my grass which is an area I'd never been fully satisfied myself.  Since this is a region where grass grows like carpet it's tricky to add detail (normally dirt/gravel) without destroying the purity of the grass fields.  But I managed to make improvements that I'm quite pleased with.  Just some subtle changes that add a little variety in the grass:

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FNewCity-Jan2001347743696.jpg&hash=d5bc10615427705e540ab55bcf2314bb00fe3d7b)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FNewCity-Jan2001347743755.jpg&hash=15f6bf9eaeb7c00beb21cef0f7bdcd1a1c0ca9b3)

Meanwhile I made a few other cosmetic mods for sidewalks and retaining walls this week.  If anyone's interested I'd be happy to submit them?

A 19th Century cobbled brick sidewalk:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FNewCity-Feb3101347734580.jpg&hash=7ebfe032a43377e7f1ab534f4f9cd55929daa9ae)

And a mod that replaces the MAXIS retaining walls with a variety of brick or rock/mortar walls, all 19th century:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FNewCity-Dec27041347733600.jpg&hash=763ee3930997487f92f51c3d14ee0ff80b964348)

Well - that's it for now.  Just waiting for the Oberland mod to upload.

Cheers,
Daniel
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: HappyDays on September 15, 2012, 02:55:53 PM
Considering the Maxis retaining walls suck, anything is an improvement and you've managed to make a really good improvement. Thumbs up!

I'll have to get the sidewalks in game to see if I like 'em. Of everything in the game, sidewalks are where I'm pickiest for some reason.
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: noahclem on September 15, 2012, 04:41:55 PM
The Oberland textures are looking fantastic as always. It seems the details you added hear fit in very nicely.

Those retaining walls look great  &apls
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: kinderly on September 15, 2012, 05:38:24 PM
Those new textures look fantastic, and very real! This is something I will definitely stick with.

Also if your having trouble with uploading onto the LEX why not upload to the STEX?
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Gobias on September 16, 2012, 04:50:32 AM
kinderly:  several people have now suggested uploading to the STEX.  I'm not ruling it out but I was trying to be patient and allow the LEX to find a solution.  I chose to develop the mod here because of the high quality that the LEX maintains through it's members.  I know some in this community have strong feelings about the STEX and the subject of quality too.  I like the idea of initiating new modders by engaging them in a scrutiny process.  I learned from the community on these boards and, to be honest, my mod would have wound up on the STEX a long time ago in far weaker condition than it is today if I hadn't decided to go for LEX candidacy.  This being my first release, and having developed it here on the SC4D boards, I would like to see it debut on the LEX so that the community here gets to know me as a LEX modder.  But I suppose if a solution isn't found I'll have to go that route at some point.  I'd like to give it a little more time though.
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: memo on September 19, 2012, 04:38:18 AM
Excellent work. I am looking forward to using this terrain mod.

Quote from: Gobias on June 23, 2012, 05:59:55 AM
In the second shot there you can see what I mean about the base textures along the road.  The sidewalks (all 3 wealth levels) I probably can't do anything about without re-doing the NAM completely!

If you wish I could try to do some coding to auto-find&replace the textures, i.e. automatically find all the wealthified game's and NAM's transit textures and replace their grass textures by new ones. Well, only if the new grass textures fit well to the terrain. The files would be of similar size as the euro textures mods. The auto-find&replace could be done with the euro textures as well, of course.
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Gobias on September 23, 2012, 08:22:08 AM
memo:  I just submitted the mod to the LEX but this would be a great idea for an addon. 

To the rest of the readers the Berner Oberland mod should be up on the LEX. If you're interested give it a try and let me know what you think.  The mod works best on a good mountain map to get all of the details hidden in the hills and I'd highly recommend giving it a shot on nichter85's Bernese Oberland map on the STEX.  The high-alt default plugin was custom designed using that map for region-accuracy.

Also the mod should be compatible with the work that vortext is doing right now with his tree-controller (go check out his thread if you haven't already!  Great work being done there!).  The flora elevation parameter was coordinated with his project.

Finally, a few shots of me goofing around with the final product:

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2Funtitled_zps4909b27f.jpg&hash=106dac3c7ff130bd78415a27be56dfb7a64fa3cb)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2Fcapture_010_16092012_134431_zps9c29493f.jpg&hash=c77dacb7f66262ec9b137ad403a98edbdd0c3c0d)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FRegionView_zps15dca113.jpg&hash=a288528539e2924b3f5a00738af4acb1069fb355)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2Fcapture_002_16092012_181011_zps4c7b5cd3.jpg&hash=064f75a9e4f8558773f7373732b8755eee8c7922)
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Swordmaster on September 23, 2012, 09:41:14 AM
Great mod for mountainous regions. Well-made!

Cheers
Willy
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: kinderly on September 23, 2012, 02:22:45 PM
Glad it finally worked out! I tried it and I loved it. The night is so dark it truly feels like pitch black nightime in the countryside. The terrain textures are some of the best I've seen, and the water mod is something I can't stop looking at. This is a very well made(and possibly one of the best)terrain mod. Hope to see more from you!
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: whatevermind on September 30, 2012, 08:23:27 PM
Is the mod missing the FloraBrush exemplar?  The Readme indicates it should be in the BO Properties... files, but I've looked in both and I'm not seeing it.  I checked in game as well and the God Mode tree brush seems to have defaulted back to Maxis sizes.

On another note, the terrain is beautiful, especially the snow.
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: epicblunder on October 01, 2012, 03:25:21 PM
So i finally had some time to take a peek at your terrain mod.  I whipped up a dry alps map to give it a go.  Pity i don't have any good satellite data for europe, i'll have to test it on a mountainous US map later to see how it handles really detailed terrain.

Berchtesgaden, Germany:
(https://57vk0q.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pAMfi1l8-gCu8IMOljZeobeLU2Sec1YD6e6IHtaWKMtL7wP-OAzPaKL0LeRSXG2iPkF8UQOdUwKxCRR-Z9ohrbbkytNv2q6td/Berchtesgaden%20RC.jpg?psid=1)

I really like your terrain.  The scree slopes are excellently done, and i love the detail in the glacier texture.   :thumbsup:

Keep up the good work!
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Gobias on October 01, 2012, 03:36:39 PM
Quote from: whatevermind on September 30, 2012, 08:23:27 PM
Is the mod missing the FloraBrush exemplar?  The Readme indicates it should be in the BO Properties... files, but I've looked in both and I'm not seeing it.  I checked in game as well and the God Mode tree brush seems to have defaulted back to Maxis sizes.

On another note, the terrain is beautiful, especially the snow.
You're right, I misspoke in the readme calling it a "flora brush" when I should have referred to it as a "flora tuner"... I'll update the readme on the LEX to correct that.

The tuner (group 7a4a8458 instance 1a2fdb6a) is included in the Properties file (hi or low altitude) and makes the mod compatible with seasonal tree controllers and sets the flora elevation parameters separately for hi and low altitude - basically establishes a tree-line near the snow-line if you're using a tree controller that sets it's final elevation row to be tree-free.  So the reason I included it in the mod was to make sure that other tree controllers would be compatible with the Oberland and that tree-lines would appear at the correct elevations when using my mod.

The actual "flora brush" exemplar which is not included in the mod (group 6a01fc2a instance 2a31304e) would control the width and strength of the God Mode flora brush.

And third, if you wanted to change the selection of trees in a god-mode brush you'd be looking for the actual flora exemplars themselves and would need to change the Resource Key to refer to a different tree model.  These are in the group e83e0437 (not in the mod).

Sorry for the confusion and thanks for pointing that out.

Also, the mod is a stand-alone product and does not by itself alter your tree-selection in the tree brush.  By itself you will get MAXIS trees from your brush.  But if you're using a custom tree-brush it is compatible with the mod.  I use a tree-brush that is a densely growing mix of all-evergreen VIP flora (a mix of conifers, abies grandis, subalpine firs and serbian spruces) to achieve that Euro-Alpine look but it's just my own personal mod.  I didn't include a tree-controller for two reasons:  first, that would require dependencies for the trees (which are not mine) and permission from the Girafe and I'd rather have released the terrain mod as a stand-alone terrain package... and second, it looks as though vortext is putting together a real gem of a seasonal controller so I think that need will be filled soon enough.

Hope that makes more sense now and thanks for letting me know about the readme.

Cheers,
Daniel
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Gobias on October 01, 2012, 03:54:51 PM
swordmaster, kinderly:  thanks for the compliments - glad you like the mod!

epicblunder: Lovely screenshot - just the kind of terrain the B.O. was made for!  I also wish I had access to better Euro-DEM for mapping but there is a good selection of NHP maps on the STEX too.  I always recommend nichter85's Berner Oberland map since I made the mod for that region.  But the whole ALPS series on the STEX works well too.  In particular the "Oberstdorf Bavaria" map works well with the hi-alt plugin.  The Zillertal and St. Moritz maps work well too.  Lots of good DEM detail in that whole series.

Just a heads up on what I'm working on now... I have a few things I'd like to prepare for release before I dig into the next big terrain mod.  A few smaller packages:
- I have a variety of rock and beach textures I created while designing the Oberland so I think I might clean up a pack of each and release.
- As mentioned earlier I've been playing with HD sidewalk and retaining wall textures.  About 80% ready to go on both of those.
- The big task at hand:  I've just started testing a MAXIS street replacement mod that upgrades the asphalt textures to something w/higher resolution and also improves the grass texture on the borders of the sidewalks.  I'll have something to show pretty soon. 

I'll be out of town for a good chunk of October (trips to New York and Chicago) but look for a lot of the above to start coming out in November.

Cheers,
Daniel
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Gobias on October 01, 2012, 05:09:05 PM
... I should add, regarding the street replacement I just started... I'd be curious to know if anyone has a preference as to which shading (light or dark) you think I should use for the asphalt?

See image below.  Not the best resolution on the jpeg but you get the idea... shows the original asphalt street texture and two preliminary variations of light/dark asphalt I'm looking to create:

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FNewCity-Apr10061349138863_zps8a3113da.jpg&hash=5820d1d4b86612da5de64886092eddc29fa0b024)

Any preference?  It's a lot of work to make these puzzle pieces so I've got to choose one and stick with it!
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Bipin on October 01, 2012, 07:13:50 PM
I love the look of the darker asphalt. It's a good balance in terms of grain/noise and value between the old black asphalt and your lighter grey one; the best of both worlds.
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: MandelSoft on October 02, 2012, 01:36:47 AM
I like the new Dark Asphalt textures! I'd like to see some more ;)

The light asphalt could be a replacement set for the standard streets...
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Gobias on October 18, 2012, 05:48:14 PM
Here's a preview of some of the beaches I'm working on.  I'll likely release these as a pack if there's interest?

Wondering at this point though if I need to release two versions - I use a .09x texture tiling factor in my terrain mods (Berner Oberland and future releases) and Lowkee used a .04x in his.  I prefer working from a .09 so that I don't put too much strain on stretching the detail of my textures.  I'd like to avoid making installation too complicated with too many choices though.  But I also want any rock, water, beach mod I release to be universally compatible?  Opinions are certainly welcome on that topic.

Forgive the inappropriate selection of flora in some of the shots...not a lot of palm trees in New England!... just trying to give some suggestion of scale by thowing a few quick MMPs on to the sand.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FNewCity-Jan3001350439197.jpg&hash=ecf2b270ca90b4b1b6b270d66479181c03fa3b51)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FBeach5.jpg&hash=158bdb4c5bda944505d7ee47c7e24215870ba69d)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FBeach3.jpg&hash=a3d8125813cf7647b912bb38f745bc37d5fc1e91)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FNewCity-Jan3001350608643.jpg&hash=dcba2e24bc3a9e59063b323c872fcd77a0b97b28)
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Swordmaster on October 18, 2012, 05:56:30 PM
Very interesting!

If you intend to make it go with Lowkee's mod as well, then you should release a .04 version as well, I guess. I don't think that'll be too complicated, just select which version you want to install.

Cheers
Willy
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: whatevermind on October 18, 2012, 07:32:40 PM
Regarding tiling, it's entirely up to you, but I know from a brief attempt at trying to find different water to go with Berner Oberland, that very few looked anything but ridiculous, even the HD ones. So, if you're shooting for compatibility with other mods, releasing versions tuned for other tiling factors could make a big difference. Of course that's also a lot more work if you have to create and maintain 3 or 4 or 10 (?) different sets of your mod to cover all the tiling factors out there. It might come down to some testing, create your textures for the 0.09x factor, and then load them up in installs of various terrain mods and see how they look. If I can find some free time, I might even try that out myself.

I also don't see any problem with simply releasing them at your tiling factor only, and just disclaimering the mod about potential visual conflicts with other terrain mods. Especially since you're planning on releasing several mods, whatever you go with could become the standard going forward for HD mods, especially if you do release water and beach and rock packs that are interchangeable with your various terrain mods. Eventually, others will likely follow suit.

Beautiful beaches, by the way, especially the Nantucket and Cape Cod versions.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: noahclem on October 22, 2012, 04:35:04 AM
Those beach mods look very promising--I'd love to see more of them  &apls  The only setback, and maybe it has more to do with water than beach, is that the line where the water starts and stops is not very clear. Perhaps changing the color or transparency settings of the water could help. And as far as I'm concerned the more options the better with regard to beaches, water, and rock mods designed for Berner Oberland.

The darker of the new asphalt streets is my preference though both textures are very nice.
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Gobias on October 23, 2012, 04:38:02 AM
Noah, Willy, Whatevermind:  thanks!

Noah:  True, in those pics the water line isn't quite clear - you're right it has more to do with the transparency settings and also the 14+13 shore textures used and not the beach itself which is just a straightforward beach texture.  But I also think those pics make the transition look a little more transparent than it really is - if you were to zoom back one it's a little more defined.  Plus most people like a little transparency.  So the problem with transparency is that the settings are in the Terrain Properties which is something that most people (including me) choose to include in a terrain mod as there are other key settings in that exemplar.  So were I to release a water mod with a transparency setting change in the Terrain Properties the exemplars would be in conflict.  Which means the water mods I make will probably just be straight on textures:  water, shore textures, the gradients and the glare alpha.

Willy/whatevermind:  I've prepared a version of the beaches for both Lowkee and Gobias tiling.  It is a chore to have to maintain both but I want the mod-packs of beaches/rock/water to be useful to ALL users.

But I will continue to use my tiling factor of .097x which after working with both (Lowkee's is a .048x) I feel the .097 is more versatile and puts far less "stretch" and strain on the texture.  I get more sharpness out of a .097x when combined with a 1024-pixel texture whereas once you stretch a 1024 to a .048x it starts to look a little blurry at close zoom.  It's also easier to add detail to a texture - like a boulder or a flowery meadow - because with a .097 the game doesn't zoom in as close on the texture... when I try to add these things at a .048 I either wind up with flowers as big as a house or I have to make those details so small for proper scale that they don't appear to be anything other than specs of color.

Ok - so here's what I've been playing with this morning before work:  a little test on a shore texture to see if I could add a little surf to my beaches.  Mixed results.  You be the judge.

On the one hand it's a nice little wave effect (and yes those waves on the top half of the pic are texture - not the maxis wave effect):

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FNewCity-Jan2001350993313_zps878b3314.jpg&hash=c97cbd15ce04463d93209365f31dbab563c1bb5f)

But the problems with something like this is that when rotated sideways the surf-line rotates too:

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FNewCity-Jan2001350993344_zps24c04e6e.jpg&hash=5e984362f8c4289a1cf1233227af8fa27e441818)

The BIG problem is that this is the #14 texture which I usually reserve to be WATER and not beach... if you use it as a beach texture then in the shallow water you get this mess:

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FNewCity-Jan3001350993408_zpsab90ce25.jpg&hash=fb58d47d0a94b99970db1c31f478073b6c9fdbdd)

... So it's a nice effect but I probably won't stick with it... no way to make that work consistently like in pic#1.

The next week or so will be busy life-wise for me but look for a whole plethora of releases in November.  The beaches are done and ready for release but I'm working on a set of water mods to go with them and I'm planning to release them both at the same time.

I also have a pack of HD sidewalks ready to go and I've included an optional plugin that replaces the MAXIS plaza base and overlay textures with new HD textures that blend the sidewalks into the bases.  I think that's key in making a good sidewalk so that they don't look out of place next to a lot.  I'm finishing up the companion piece for that too - a pack of retaining walls and foundations that will go with the sidewalks/bases.  Once that's done I'll release those three together.

Meanwhile I'll continue to work (sloooowly) on the asphalt streets and the next two terrain mods.

Cheers,
Daniel
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: epicblunder on October 23, 2012, 06:58:23 PM
Not having any experience in tiling factors and beach textures i have no input to offer there, but i have to say that i love the vancouver island beach mod and i can't wait to get my hands on it.   :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Simcoug on October 23, 2012, 07:20:34 PM
epicblunder beat me to it - count 'two' for the Vancouver beach mod - although all of them look great  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: FrankU on October 24, 2012, 02:09:50 AM
Hey Daniel,

Good work!
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Gobias on October 29, 2012, 05:20:40 PM
The Beach Pack and the first of three Water Packs are up on the LEX.  I'll have the other two water packs up within the next couple of days... just need a little time to pretty them up for release!

All of the Beach/Water mods will include two scale-versions: compatible with either Lowkee's or the Gobias tiling factor.

More to come soon...

Cheers,
Daniel
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Swordmaster on October 29, 2012, 07:25:07 PM
Great! They look very neat in the game. I'll be experimenting which one is best.

Cheers
Willy
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Gobias on November 02, 2012, 03:53:54 PM
Not sure why I felt compelled to mention this but... those shots at the top of this page (page 5) of the shore/surf test... the texture I made for that shallow surf started out as a sampled image of the Jersey shore.  I was in NY just a few weeks ago and stood on the boardwalk at Seaside Heights looking down at the ocean.  Click!  Some heavy photoshopping and it's a beach texture for SC4.

From what I hear from family that live in the area and what I can see on the news Seaside Heights and the boardwalk I stood on while I snapped that shot are pretty much gone.  Destroyed by Sandy.

The night before I took that picture I met a couple near Times Square who owned a candy store on the boardwalk.  We talked for an hour waiting for the last bus from Port Authority back to Toms River.  The next day I woke up and headed out to the beach to take the shot that became the surf texture above.  To my surprise the moment I got out of the car at Seaside there was the fellow I met last night way up in Mid Town Manhattan minding his shop at Seaside.

I can only assume at this point, knowing what's become of Seaside Heights, that his store likely no longer exists.  So strange to think that this all took place just a few weeks ago and it's still fresh in my mind.  I'm still working today with beach textures of the same sand I just sampled days ago from a boardwalk that I hear is no longer there.

Deepest sympathies to the families affected by Sandy.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FIMG_3223.jpg&hash=ef8ac3dfbc128782313426349d1c5397da271e04)
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Gobias on November 26, 2012, 01:32:35 PM
Sorry for the delay but I finally posted the third and final water pack on the LEX.  This one's more of a specialty pack with a very deep "green" Chicago River, a Pacific Blue "Inside Passage" shaded to match the straights up near the BC coast and a Loch Lomond variation which has an almost-black surface color you might see in the lochs in and around Scotland.

Also uploaded a pack of 10 HD Sidewalk Textures which also contains a set of MAXIS plaza base and overlay texture replacements.  I think it's important when creating a sidewalk texture to blend it properly into the base textures of commercial lots so the sidewalk doesn't look out of place.  The original MAXIS plaza textures are far too pink and bright for my taste and I think these replacements suit a good NY or Chicago-styled city pretty well.  There's a heavy emphasis on 19th century brick and cobblestone texture that also works in a European urban city.

Now I discuss this in the readme but figured I'd go into a little more detail here:  I created two different versions of the MAXIS texture replacements.  The first is an HD-version and it blends much better with the HD sidewalks.  The second is the exact same set of base textures but in a 128x128 pixel set - I did this because I found that the Lot Editor will not display base or overlay textures in it's menu of texture choices unless the texture is 128x128.  Unless anyone knows a way around this I had to resort to including two versions of the plugin - one for use in the lot editor and the other for HD-in-game play.  Up to you how you'd like to use them.  It's perfectly fine to just use one or the other in-game or in lot editor but just please be aware that if you just use the HD set you won't have the textures available to choose from in LE.  They will DISPLAY in Lot Editor if already placed on an existing lot... they just won't show up in the menu to add from scratch.

I'll post a few screenshots of the sidewalks this afternoon... meanwhile they're up on the LEX if anyone wants to give 'em a shot.
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Gobias on November 26, 2012, 02:37:14 PM
A few screenshots of the sidewalks/base textures:

Various brick and cobblestone sidewalks alongside lots with some of the MAXIS base replacements:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2Fcobble.jpg&hash=aeb51a487607fe8ae5b7e398b7326ac5a89f6826)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2Fmodcobble.jpg&hash=d0a3d1095aab9df0ca49cca1e9c88d2659de90f3)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FBostonBrick.jpg&hash=1b7624f68a1e96b5a9e63232c9493aa6d80881eb)

The effect of using the MAXIS base texture replacement on a plaza scene:

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2Fplaza.jpg&hash=3b753f711022f87fd550ee06b5806ec81dcacafc)

... now, one thing that I created but didn't include in the mod was a selection of 1x1 open paved plaza lots using some textures I sampled in Chicago last month.  If you can name the building whose plaza features these textures you win a prize.  If anyone is interested in using them let me know.  I thought they'd blend well with the darker tones of these new base textures:

An example:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2Fopenplazaa.jpg&hash=d8509fe4d269501108695972d39aac2a891c71ae)

I also did the same with some of the base textures in the pack (but again these lots weren't included in the release) to be able to use them as 1x1 plaza extenders - here the sidewalk blends into the open paved plaza lots on the corner.
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2Fopenplazac.jpg&hash=6bbdc8dccc63657e3d0ef1259d2c8d2cb52693fc)

Anyway that's it for sidewalks and bases.  I'm still cleaning up some retaining wall replacements that fit the same style of 19th to early 20th century and work esp well in NY/Chicago themed cities.

Pretty soon I'll turn back to terrain.  I'd like to work on something more "standard" for a terrain mod since I know the bright-green of the Berner Oberland is geared mainly towards middle-European regions and is more of a specialty mod.  I find that the Appalachian is a pretty dark/olive palette and the Berner Oberland is especially bright - so something in between, a darker green mod (but not quite as dark or olive/brown as the Appalachian) that blends better with lots/deciduous trees might fill the gap between the two styles.  Also the tree-rock transition at higher altitude was intentionally very abrupt in the BO mod to replicate the sharp tree line in the Alps so something with a more gradual transition would also probably be useful.
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: sunv123 on November 26, 2012, 02:41:29 PM
Hey, i just downloaded them and they seem to look not very good. &mmm They are look awesome! ;D &apls They defiantly look way better than those old Maxis ones.

Keep up the great work! :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: vortext on November 26, 2012, 02:58:00 PM
Textures look great!  &apls

But just for my understanding, I was under the impression herringbone bond was typical European?!  ()what()
Maybe one of our American friends can clarify as I've never been to the US.

Your plans for a new terrain mod sounds promising, pretty much sums up my wish list.  ;)
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Gobias on November 26, 2012, 03:16:40 PM
Quote from: vortext on November 26, 2012, 02:58:00 PM
But just for my understanding, I was under the impression herringbone bond was typical European?!  ()what()
Maybe one of our American friends can clarify as I've never been to the US.

Hmm - good question.  I can't say I know the origin of the style, but it is pretty commonly used in older (hehe, older by US standards) plazas and walkways in many parts of the US, especially New England, older areas of New York (esp around Central Park) and Boston or Portland Maine and I even find it used in "exploration" settlements in the midwest around the Mississippi River.  But like most things we probably borrowed/stole it from Europe!   :)

I think that's why I'm drawn to cobblestone textures for SC4.  It's versatile for both NY/Chicago and European themed cities.
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: noahclem on November 26, 2012, 03:39:23 PM
Wow Gobias, far be it from you to create anything other than something exceptional! I haven't had a chance to investigate your most recent uploads but the timing is great for me trying to create a mostly Zoom 6 update in Siilijoki. I must say I'm extremely interested in your more mainstream terrain mod that you're mentioning. I like to play on mountains and a variety of other places and I've been using your TM for all non-autumn, non-winter scenes since it's been released, but a more urban friendly standardized version of your terrain work could be very useful. Be careful with your Midas touch ;)
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Swordmaster on November 27, 2012, 08:20:50 AM
Looks like my sidewalk-induced worries have been put to rest for now. These will find their way into PSC.



Quote from: vortext on November 26, 2012, 02:58:00 PM
But just for my understanding, I was under the impression herringbone bond was typical European?!  ()what()
Maybe one of our American friends can clarify as I've never been to the US.

$%Grinno$%

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1204.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fbb419%2Fswm666%2Frichmondva_zpse9160a6c.jpg&hash=ab52438ce700874f31ca0aab08220fe1b435c312)

Richmond, Virginia. I could post hundreds of examples like that from the US.


Cheers
Willy
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: vortext on November 27, 2012, 12:28:31 PM
For some reason I always imagined US sidewalks either to be concrete slabs or plain asphalt. Guess I should've known that would be highly unlikely (and a bit biased as well, I might add).

Quote from: Gobias on November 26, 2012, 03:16:40 PM
I think that's why I'm drawn to cobblestone textures for SC4.  It's versatile for both NY/Chicago and European themed cities.

While on the subject I've got some nitpicking to do. ;D
Cobblestone and herringbone are two distinct types of paving. The difference being the former uses natural formed rocks (or rocks carved from natural stone) while the latter uses fabricated bricks which allows for neat patterns, like the herringbone pattern you've made amongst others.
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: jmyers2043 on November 27, 2012, 02:41:29 PM
Quote from: vortext on November 27, 2012, 12:28:31 PM
For some reason I always imagined US sidewalks either to be concrete slabs or plain asphalt.

:D   99% of the sidewalks are concrete. But the herringbone block pattern is not unusual. Most likely to be seen in front of some CS$$$ storefronts.   


- Jim


Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Gobias on November 27, 2012, 03:54:11 PM
Quote from: jmyers2043 on November 27, 2012, 02:41:29 PM
Quote from: vortext on November 27, 2012, 12:28:31 PM
For some reason I always imagined US sidewalks either to be concrete slabs or plain asphalt.

:D   99% of the sidewalks are concrete. But the herringbone block pattern is not unusual. Most likely to be seen in front of some CS$$$ storefronts.   


- Jim

Yep, essentially what Jim said.  Most urban/suburban sidewalks in the US are concrete or asphalt.  I wasn't really looking to represent the majority of the US at all with the pack, but more or less find interesting textures available to me that would work well in the game and could be versatile and useful in different styles of cities on both sides of the pond.  And I'm a 19th Century guy, not a modernist, so I gravitate towards the historical locales that we haven't paved over.

So while most of American sidewalks are not cobble/herringbone or brick I wound up looking in old port towns, historic districts, city parks and places that were well-preserved to work with.  There are many places in the US where you can find these patterns and they're usually either historic (again, old by OUR standards isn't all that old  :) ) or it's a wealthy suburb where we've tried to replicate the European style.

Vortext - yes, I stand corrected on the herringbone/cobble distinction.  You're correct.  I suppose I always thought of true herringbone as being represented in a pattern specifically like this:

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FHerringbone.jpg&hash=51a00456bebfa8658953fe0be80f41be065c6d58)

... by the way this is a texture I sampled at the Bethesda fountain in Central Park in New York:

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FIMG_3156-1.jpg&hash=28fb969d39c70c3e1fc3251f463c8b537486f6a6)

But I find that in the US since we do mostly have paved sidewalks most refer to anything that isn't concrete/asphalt or poured cement to be "cobblestone" by default even though you're right to make the distinction that a synthetic brick worked into such a pattern isn't true cobble.
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Gobias on December 03, 2012, 04:50:40 AM
sunv123, noah, vortext, and all - thanks for the comments on the sidewalks

I've started work on the "standard" terrain mod and I'm pleased to say it's coming along very nicely.  Made rapid progress over the weekend.  Sorry I don't have any images to show just yet but in the next week or so I'll put together some screenshots.  This mod should bridge the gap nicely between the darker Appalachian and the bright green Alpine Oberland.  Stay tuned.
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: noahclem on December 03, 2012, 05:23:58 AM
Great to hear that progress is being made and I look forward to screen shots soon  :thumbsup:  Filling the gap between Berner Oberland and Appalachian would be very useful. Out of curiousity, how would you describe the color scheme relative to Meadowshire?

By the way, I'm really enjoying your sidewalk and texture mod  &apls
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Swordmaster on December 03, 2012, 02:53:06 PM
Yes, good to hear. I've been toying with your textures as well, giving some nice results - check tonight's update in my MD. I'm curious to see where exactly you're going. You could make all my modding useless. :D

Cheers
Willy
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: bladeberkman on December 09, 2012, 03:06:15 AM
Hey, Gobias! Love the new sidewalk textures; great work. Especially the Central Park Cobblestones. I was going to edit a few of my lots in the LE using this texture, but could not find it. I was able to find most of the others, however. Do you know the LE ID for the Central Park Cobblestones? Is there an option to use them in the LE?

Thanks!

-Blade 
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Gobias on December 09, 2012, 03:27:28 AM
Quote from: bladeberkman on December 09, 2012, 03:06:15 AM
Hey, Gobias! Love the new sidewalk textures; great work. Especially the Central Park Cobblestones. I was going to edit a few of my lots in the LE using this texture, but could not find it. I was able to find most of the others, however. Do you know the LE ID for the Central Park Cobblestones? Is there an option to use them in the LE?

Thanks!

-Blade

When I set up the MAXIS base texture replacement addon I chose only a selection of the various textures I had made for sidewalks.  Many made the cut standing in for various MAXIS textures but turns out I didn't use the Central Park texture in the replacement selection... which is why you won't find it in LE.  It exists only in the Central Park Sidewalk file.

If you're handy with Ilive and a FSH tool (trusty 'ol Fishman will do the job) you could make the sidewalk into an LE texture pretty easily.  If you're not familiar with these tools let me know and I'd be happy to make it into an LE-base texture and send you a link.

Cheers,
Daniel
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Gobias on December 09, 2012, 03:37:18 AM
Ok, so, it's show-and-tell time.  As mentioned a week or so ago I'm working on a new terrain mod.  Something to bridge the color palettes of the bright-green/grassy Berner Oberland and the darker dirtier Appalachian.  Here's a quick comparison of the those two mods and a beta-version of what I'm working on now using the same scene:

The Appalachian:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FA2.jpg&hash=70aa9521a786a8f3f182ed64d5f5b47189004b4c)

The Berner Oberland:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FA3.jpg&hash=15b9943bbbbe17447bbcd4bc509c99352245c3c2)

And progress on the new, as-yet-untitled mod (Given my handle "Gobias" I've just taken to calling it the "Sudden Valley" Terrain mod.  Any AD fans out there?)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FA1.jpg&hash=8b97a811a0d053345c2ef352b12c1c89c62d181d)

I'll be back soon with a few more screenshots and some detail on what's new in the mod... stay tuned.

Cheers,
Daniel
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Gobias on December 09, 2012, 03:51:58 AM
Quote from: Swordmaster on December 03, 2012, 02:53:06 PM
Yes, good to hear. I've been toying with your textures as well, giving some nice results - check tonight's update in my MD. I'm curious to see where exactly you're going. You could make all my modding useless. :D

Willy, PSC is an absolute beauty and I love what you've done with the textures.  Particularly your "content selection" is top-notch.  I certainly want to encourage you to keep working with terrain but I also would be curious to see if the new mod I'm working on addresses any of your needs.  If you're interested in trying the beta let me know.  In fact I'll probably want to line up a few testers for feedback and suggestions.
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: vortext on December 09, 2012, 07:26:30 AM
Looks like you've found the perfect middle ground!  :thumbsup:

One request though; perhaphs you could give it some more variety? No offense meant but both yours and Lowkee's terrain mod are a bit dull compared to CPs, despite being HD. That said, I know making textures is very time consuming and I'm happy anyway you decided to make another terrain mod. My two cents.  :)
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Girafe on December 09, 2012, 07:36:48 AM
Grass textures are much better (your Terrain mod was too green saturated and Lowkee's too "dessaturated"), this one seems to be a good compromise. Rocks textures need to be updated IMHO.

Keep going on this way  ;)
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: epicblunder on December 09, 2012, 10:08:50 AM
I too like the balance of green-ness in this one, especially up near the snow line.   &apls
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Gobias on December 09, 2012, 12:16:57 PM
Girafe:  thanks!  Regarding the rock texture I've actually always felt pleased with the BOTM rock texture.  It holds up to stretching and zooming fairly well (a necessity in Alpine maps) as limestone.  Rock is a tough texture to get right without the result coming off too cartoonish and sometimes too much detail looks awful when you zoom back.  But I'll take all the suggestions I can get and I'll see what I can come up with rock-wise to improve.  Simple suggestions like these are good because they push me to work on something I might not have tried to improve.

Vortext: Thinking about your comment regarding CP's details...  A couple of things come to mind.  I've often made attempts to try and work in detail textures to the Oberland - flowers, rocks, gravel, etc.  Sometimes those attempts fail for two reasons.  One is that details like rocks or logs just look better as a three-dimensional models (MMP) in the game because they have depth, lighting characteristics.  I got away with a boulder-texture in the BOTM but it was the texture I was least satsified with.  The other issue is the INI which isn't really well-suited to detail texturing.  I can never guarantee that a detail texture won't accidentally overwhelm someone's map because depending on slope/elevation it just might be that the ONE spot in the INI I try and work that detail in happens to be a dominant on someone's map... and then all of a sudden you've got logs everywhere or a meadow covered in gravel.  But sometimes I can still manage to get detail to work.  The boulder-texture in BOTM works ok only because I isolated the one unique area where moisture collects at the foot of a cliff and therefore the boulder mostly appears only in that location.  But you can still see the texture pop up in places it doesn't belong.  Same with the glacier-texture.  Since the INI is moisture based it too appears on the sides of cliffs at times and there's nothing I can do to stop that.  However what I can do is work to create more low-lying details and just improve the overall level of visible-detail in all the textures across the board.  That is something I'm still working on with this mod - more variation, more visible detail.  Thanks for the comment as it immediately made me boot up an old CP terrain mod so that I could think on your suggestions!

Ok, so let's show a little more of the new mod-in-progress...

One thing I'm working on is adjusting the tree line to make the snow-cap "reach" into the lower terrain with a little more variety/blend.  Manipulating the curve of the tree-line via moisture will help accomplish this as will textures I'm still working on creating:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FE.jpg&hash=fca71b634aa9f0ef654fb7db0aad8a0c2b1cac3f)

Also the level of visible detail in the grass will be improved a bit.  One strategy I adopted w/BOTM that I'm discarding here is the use of a three-tiered zoom-out on my grass textures, moving to just using the closest two.  Pic below features mostly new grass textures that have more natural detail visible from higher-up:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FF.jpg&hash=94e45c2e16060cc491c28aa3134ccd7d25796f6a)

Of course there's a big change in "green"-ness.  The mod is darker, less blue and I think matches both VIP seasonal flora and custom content pretty well.

Here's an autumn scene:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2Fcapture_007_09122012_123518.jpg&hash=6e5f84c25ebde48c39b3f8824d951d29ebcf4be9)

And back to Spring/Summer:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2Fcapture_008_09122012_123551.jpg&hash=c01eba657d35f0bfcefb2c2f18e6768cc9831140)

I'm still very much working on the INI and distribution to blend more and create more detail.  So what you see map-wide will change as I start blending more.  Anyway - let me know if you have any suggestions and I'll keep working...

Cheers,
Daniel
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: sunv123 on December 09, 2012, 12:31:23 PM
Maybe you should make the snow a little more visible by making it thicker, because the snow is almost grey, but in mountainous regions, the snow is white. Pure White. Here's a picture.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimageshack.us%2Fscaled%2Flanding%2F368%2Frnso0oy.jpg&hash=4219bf8a93f432f951ac4e1bf4acda3d3c4cfc3b)
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: vortext on December 09, 2012, 12:41:32 PM
Quote from: Gobias on December 09, 2012, 12:16:57 PM
One is that details like rocks or logs just look better as a three-dimensional models (MMP) in the game because they have depth, lighting characteristics.  [...] The other issue is the INI which isn't really well-suited to detail texturing.  I can never guarantee that a detail texture won't accidentally overwhelm someone's map because depending on slope/elevation it just might be that the ONE spot in the INI I try and work that detail in happens to be a dominant on someone's map... and then all of a sudden you've got logs everywhere or a meadow covered in gravel.

Sure terrain detailing is best done with MMPs and indeed the latter sometimes was a little awkward with CPs mods, having an entire slope full with logs.  :D
What I was thinking off, however, was more surface/clover variation. Like a mossy textures transitions into thick grass, which transitions into a more muddy grass texture - imho the BOTM is a little too clean.  ;)

Though in the last two pictures it seems you've already incorporated some dirt patches. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Gobias on December 09, 2012, 12:45:20 PM
Quote from: sunv123 on December 09, 2012, 12:31:23 PM
Maybe you should make the snow a little more visible by making it thicker, because the snow is almost grey, but in mountainous regions, the snow is white. Pure White. Here's a picture.

Well I think I might already have you covered on that one.  The previous pics I posted don't really show high enough elevation but try this one:

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2Fcapture_004_09122012_143649.jpg&hash=a30473d0897f74414fc31dcd3c495377f47b6adf)

That's my "top of the world, ma".  Snow is deeper and whiter once you get far enough up past the tree-line.  The previous pics mostly only showed the area right around the tree-line and I created a layer of elevation where snow, mud, rock all mixes together.  Further up though you get mostly pure snow, drifts, glacial texture in level-areas and on steep cliff faces either rock or a rock/snow texture.  Let me know if that's more to your liking.
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Gobias on December 09, 2012, 12:52:23 PM
Quote from: vortext on December 09, 2012, 12:41:32 PM
Sure terrain detailing is best done with MMPs and indeed the latter sometimes was a little awkward with CPs mods, having an entire slope full with logs.  :D
What I was thinking off, however, was more surface/clover variation. Like a mossy textures transitions into thick grass, which transitions into a more muddy grass texture - imho the BOTM is a little too clean.  ;)

Though in the last two pictures it seems you've already incorporated some dirt patches. :thumbsup:
Agree - the BOTM is too clean.  Probably just due more to my approach w/BOTM - that area has some strikingly lovely open grass fields even on the steepest of slopes and I think I was afraid if I introduced too much dirt and roughness in the INI then, while it might look nice in-game, it wouldn't be authentic to the recreation I was going for.  That's what's been so liberating about this mod - I'm not really modelling it after a particular area, so I feel like I have more freedom to get creative.  Also, yes, glad you noticed in those pics that I am working to blend more surface variation even in the flatter terrain.  That work is still on-going.  Thanks again for the replies!
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Swordmaster on December 09, 2012, 01:53:11 PM
Some thoughs based on my playing around.

Apparently, I like the BOTM more than some of these other folks; only the color bugged me. I think the BOTM 0x50 texture is very good, and very versatile. Changing only the hue has given me a look I enjoy very much. I'm still playing around with the zoomed out versions. Maybe your new one will be even better, which would be awesome, but I wouldn't simply discard your previous work.

On the three-tiered zoom levels, I'm not sure of your current approach. I'd need a closer look at the new stuff to make a fair judgment, but I think using the zoom 4 textures at zoom 1/2/3 isn't going to give the best results. (Is that what you're saying?) Then again, I'm confident you'll crank out something that's good enough by your own standards.

The first shots are promising, but you'll understand I'm focused on the plain flats texture (let's call it the "pasture" texture). It would be a good idea to keep testing it both in summer and autumn, and probably play around with ChrisAdams' pasture flora on it. I think what you now have may be too dark to fit both seasonal colors, or the MMPs. Even just considering the summer season, I've concluded during my testing that the best look will be achieved if your grass clearly stands out agains both CP's and girafe's summer trees. Right now it seems to be within reach of the same hues. While this certainly makes for a nice grassy look, it would be more conciliatory towards the game's limits to up the contrast between the two. After all, we're stuck in this camera angle, and it's usual you see the grass texture behind a tree. This is even more important for folks who play with shadows turned off.

Of course, these are just suggestions. Maybe some folks would enjoy terrain that largely uses the same colors as the trees. Maybe, this carves out some room for a third terrain mod? ;D


Cheers
Willy

PS: Of course, I'd be happy to test. ;)
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: sunv123 on December 09, 2012, 01:54:43 PM
Oh yeah, forgot about that. ::) That's great, looks wonderful! :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: bladeberkman on December 09, 2012, 02:17:04 PM
Hey, Gobias!

Actually, that would be wonderful! I have never used these tools before and I'm not sure I would know where to begin. If it is not too difficult and would not take too much of your time I would be very appreciative. They would make a great base texture and blend well with a lot of Paeng's parks.

Thank you for your work. Very happy with what you are doing on the new terrain as well.

-Blade
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: whatevermind on December 09, 2012, 03:13:14 PM
The new terrain looks great so far! I definitely like the grass textures from those later shots, and the color scheme looks great as well.
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: jmyers2043 on December 09, 2012, 04:57:13 PM
Missouir Breaks is my favorite terrain because of the muted color palette. It also comes close to the Maxis pasture too. I swtich Lowkees Appalachian in and out too. The color of this new terrain pretty good.

- Jim


 
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Gobias on December 13, 2012, 06:26:53 AM
Quote from: bladeberkman on December 09, 2012, 02:17:04 PM
Hey, Gobias!

Actually, that would be wonderful! I have never used these tools before and I'm not sure I would know where to begin. If it is not too difficult and would not take too much of your time I would be very appreciative. They would make a great base texture and blend well with a lot of Paeng's parks.

Thank you for your work. Very happy with what you are doing on the new terrain as well.

-Blade
PM'd you the link - let me know if that works.

Daniel
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: adfiver on December 29, 2012, 12:53:56 PM
Quote from: Gobias on September 15, 2012, 02:13:20 PMAnd a mod that replaces the MAXIS retaining walls with a variety of brick or rock/mortar walls, all 19th century:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FNewCity-Dec27041347733600.jpg&hash=763ee3930997487f92f51c3d14ee0ff80b964348)
If (I hope 'when') you make this mod, it'll be like another "revolution" in the game, because a mod replacing the Maxis retaining walls is what so many people are dreaming of and would like to have!
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: sunv123 on December 29, 2012, 01:14:28 PM
I'm pretty sure that it's in the mod itself. Here's a link

http://sc4devotion.com/csxlex/lex_filedesc.php?lotGET=2850

Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Gobias on December 30, 2012, 04:01:52 PM
adfiver / sunv123:  The sidewalk mod includes a base texture replacement but not a retaining wall replacement plugin.  I'm still intending to release some retaining walls but not quite there yet.

So, surprise!  Just got the "Sudden Valley" Terrain mod up on the LEX.  Forgive the lack of a better name, but it's the looks that count, eh, and at least it pays tribute to my user-name.

Apologies for not bothering to beta-test with users here but I got to the point where I felt the mod was in a state I was happy with and I think mostly I'd be getting feedback based on color/brightness - some users would prefer something darker, some brighter, maybe redder for some or blue-er for other?  Ultimately I just decided to take Willy's excellent advice and focus on making something that would give reasonable contrast with flora and MMPs and match well with lots - and in the end I hope the mod satisfies both my desire for something a little darker but also blends well with content in circulation.

After a LOT of regrading of color/brightness, re-running FSH files and reloading the game.  Over.  And over again.  I probably created over a thousand different FSH files to keep tweaking color.  Red +1?  Too red.  Red -1?  Not enough red....  I think I'm color-blind now!  But at some point one has to say "DONE"!  INI tables?  Probably re-made that thing around 50 times before I settled on a good blend.

So here's how the mod turned out.  I'll throw up a few images now and maybe if time permits tonight I'll stop by for a little explanation on the strategy I employed here.  But alas, dinner is in the oven and I've got to run:

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2Fcapture_015_26122012_172705_zps266cafb0.jpg&hash=fbe21395204c872693c0344b16ac0623ff99c548)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2Fcapture_005_26122012_181424_zps364b0e99.jpg&hash=6c569f2dcde3622ea8b1a4168f5514689eab0fb2)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2Fcapture_009_30122012_120649_zps596b83ec.jpg&hash=a36987d212f19d3616f8f18555f7d644785e5a7d)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2Fcapture_009_26122012_200733_zps392bdfe9.jpg&hash=8e05302bc2be713b8929418935931570527fa885)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2Fcapture_014_30122012_121130_zps075f359f.jpg&hash=df46d3fbd8222eded34d0e675b0d3bc5efab8bf5)
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Uzil on December 30, 2012, 04:31:26 PM
Congratulations for your new terrain mod, he is simply perfect but I have a question :

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimage.noelshack.com%2Ffichiers%2F2012%2F01%2F1356913844-simcity-4-2012-12-31-01-25-07-83.jpg&hash=4a50ce521ebc560777e9f24a65472ec301e09f2c)

How to avoid this problem of diagonal ?
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Gobias on December 30, 2012, 04:42:34 PM
Quote from: Uzil on December 30, 2012, 04:31:26 PM
How to avoid this problem of diagonal ?
Well if you're referring to the grass color along the roadside, that's unfortunately something that can't really be helped without a road/street texture mod.  The grass color along roadsides is part of the road-tile itself.  That's an issue I ran into with the Berner Oberland mod too, but unfortunately, unless I only make terrain the same color as road-tile grasses or recreate every road/street tile to match the terrain then it's not really solveable with a terrain-mod alone.
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Gobias on December 30, 2012, 04:47:46 PM
Ok, maybe I do have a few minutes before I have to head off to dinner...

So here's basically my strategy for the mod:
For starters, there were a lot of elements in the BOTM that I liked and as I started working on the mod I decided I didn't have to waste a lot of time remaking 100% new textures from scratch only to come up with roughly the same grass, dirt, rock appearances I already had... but I knew I wanted to get dirtier and darker with these textures so I employed a few different methods to be able to use some of my old work alongside new textures but give it all a different look:

1) New Textures:  Around the tree-line the C9 texture blends snow and dirt with more variety.  The C6 and C8 textures where the tree-line ends are new rougher clumpier grass textures.  D8-DC textures are all new mossy/dirty detail textures and DD is a new dry-grass texture.  C7 texture is a new pasture texture.
2) Texture Hybrids:  To get dirtier I blended several of the old "pure" grass textures that I liked from BOTM with dirtier textures to create variety.  Less of a clean-grass look.  The C5 texture is a good example – a photoshopped blend of two older grass textures.  So I wound up with none of the grass textures I borrowed from my past work remaining in their original state. 
3) Color-Grading:  Any texture that carried over from BOTM was heavily color-graded to fit the new palatte.  Darker, redder.
4) Zoom-adjustments:  I found that I could remove my furthest zoom-texture in some cases to create a little more noise on the landscape at furthest zoom.  Again, this eliminates some of the "clean" grass look that was present in the BOTM.
5) New INI:  totally re-wrote the INI to blend more detail and dirt textures into the slopes.  The tree-line is less clean cut and rock/dirt textures appear even in gentle slopes of the lower-elevations.

Other details were changed including new base-textures for grass lots, a different transparency for the shore.

So that's about it.  Hopefully the color-palette works well with the MAXIS content – I spent a lot of time reloading the darned game and scrutinizing the color of these grasses trying to achieve something that would look proper with both summer/fall flora.  Hope it turned out well enough.

I've only briefly had a chance to test out the download off the LEX so if there are any issues just let me know.

Cheers,
Daniel
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Uzil on December 30, 2012, 04:57:04 PM
Sorry, but you don't have understand my problem (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.simland.eu%2Fforum%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Fgene.gif&hash=47b364609a1a8a69a3f577b1660ed7c191f047d6) , I wanted to talk about that  :
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimage.noelshack.com%2Ffichiers%2F2012%2F01%2F1356915358-1356913844-simcity-4-2012-12-31-01-25-07-83.jpg&hash=dfdd8882e5753241fba2e8a09e01e982a5d3ec88)
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Swordmaster on December 30, 2012, 05:47:42 PM
I'm impressed, Daniel. From my first glances I'm certain this will be a very popular mod, so all the effort you put in will pay off.

You know my tweaked textures are a lot lighter, so it would be unfair of me to say this mod is too dark or too this or too that, but I'll certainly be playing around to find any new options I've gotten. I think I'll render one of dobdriver's map with it and see what happens.

Thanks for all the work!


Cheers
Willy

PS: Uzil, that's caused by a different MaxNormalYForCliff value in the terrain exemplar. Look at the mod you used before and adapt the new one with the old value. Should work out fine.
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: epicblunder on December 30, 2012, 06:30:59 PM
Wow i didn't even know this one was close to being done.  I've just tested it out a little bit and i have to say that I'm loving up.   :thumbsup:  Very nice job Gobias.
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Tarkus on December 31, 2012, 01:04:41 AM
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FPfNDb.jpg&hash=65462626640302c7b2db92f8ad24b15dfc250f42)

There has to be a better way to say that . . .

It may sound like a salad dressing, but this looks like an absolutely phenomenal mod--and as an avid Arrested Development fan, I love the name of it. :thumbsup:  I've picked it up and plan to give it a whirl.  Thank you for all your efforts on terrain modding--having done a little bit of it myself, I know it's no small feat.  Wishing you the best for 2013.

-Alex
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Uzil on December 31, 2012, 05:54:02 AM
Quote from: Swordmaster on December 30, 2012, 05:47:42 PM
PS: Uzil, that's caused by a different MaxNormalYForCliff value in the terrain exemplar. Look at the mod you used before and adapt the new one with the old value. Should work out fine.

How I can fix that ?  ()what()
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Indiana Joe on December 31, 2012, 01:16:25 PM
Uzil:  you need the Reader tool to fix that problem. http://sc4devotion.com/csxlex/lex_filedesc.php?lotGET=656 (http://sc4devotion.com/csxlex/lex_filedesc.php?lotGET=656)

In the Reader, you need to open the Terrain Parameters file of the terrain mod in your plugins folder.  In that file, there should only be a few entries.  Click on the one that says "Exemplar...Y..." and has the most text.  In that entry, you need to find the MaxNormalYForCliff value.  Change that to 0.85 and it will fix the diagonal problem.

However, a side effect of doing that is that more rock textures will show up throughout your terrain.

Hope that helps!
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Uzil on December 31, 2012, 02:47:10 PM
Thank you, it's perfectly working now  ;)
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: whatevermind on January 08, 2013, 07:39:26 PM
Glad to see this was released! The pictures look great, and I'll definitely have to try this out as soon as I get a chance.
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Gobias on January 19, 2013, 02:04:43 PM
Sorry I haven't had much of a chance to be around the boards the last few weeks since the Sudden Valley release but I appreciate all the comments thus far and hope you all enjoy the mod.

January's been a busy month and I've been trying to spend the little SC4 time I've had actually playing the game, which as many modders can surely understand, often feels like it doesn't happen as much as it used to!  But I think I'm going to take a little modding break to clean up some plugins and start a new region.  Perhaps an MD once I get a little further along.  I'm nuts about tweaking all my growables so that they grow naturally in tilesets without any building growing too often or not enough (I keep a NY/Euro/HK set) and I try and keep my menus squeaky clean.  And I just finished what feels like a never-ending 10 year quest to clean up all my sets.  So now I feel like it's time to just sit down and play.

That said I'm actually making a street-side mod today as my last project before starting a region - wasn't anything I planned for release, just a personal project - to use Girafe and CP's beautiful seasonal flora for street-trees.  Just got finished adjusting my make-shift godmode seasonal flora brush to add Girafe's Lindens and Ashes and I created a MAXIS flora/prop replacement mod to do the same (unfortunately I can't find a way to replace MAXIS flora with seasonal - only evergreen - but it's better than still having MAXIS trees everywhere).  T21 modding is painfully slow for the street trees and I'd like to also work in some better planters and benches... so it's rough but I'm getting there.

Thanks again for the replies!
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Swordmaster on January 20, 2013, 12:24:42 AM
A maxis replacement mod sounds very good. In fact Noah and I had been planning to make one, so that's easy ;)

If you run into issues with the T21s, I can always help out.


Cheers
Willy
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Vizoria on April 10, 2013, 04:14:16 AM
First of all Gobias I just want to say what an amazing job you've done with the Berner Oberland terrain mod, it is absolutely incredible!  :thumbsup:

However I wonder if you are creating a Berner Oberland tree controller? I have downloaded the VIP Girafe flora (Subalpine Fir, Serbian Spruce, Conifers, Abies Grandis) the ones which you said where the most compatible (visually so) with the Berner Oberland Terrain mod and I was wondering if you ever considered a Berner Oberland tree controller which uses the four tree types I mentioned above?

Since the Berner Oberland mod is designed to simulate the Swiss Alps, I think it would be really cool if there was a tree controller to go with it; where the trees resemble those found in Switzerland. Plus I've just downloaded the incredible Zurich Switzerland mod by blunder from Simtropolis, and because the map is so huge a tree controller which would spawn trees native to the area would be really handy!

I have no coding experience or modding experience, but as a fan of your work please could you create a Berner Oberland tree controller mod?
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Gobias on April 13, 2013, 05:17:13 PM
Quote from: Vizoria on April 10, 2013, 04:14:16 AM
First of all Gobias I just want to say what an amazing job you've done with the Berner Oberland terrain mod, it is absolutely incredible!  :thumbsup:

However I wonder if you are creating a Berner Oberland tree controller? I have downloaded the VIP Girafe flora (Subalpine Fir, Serbian Spruce, Conifers, Abies Grandis) the ones which you said where the most compatible (visually so) with the Berner Oberland Terrain mod and I was wondering if you ever considered a Berner Oberland tree controller which uses the four tree types I mentioned above?

Since the Berner Oberland mod is designed to simulate the Swiss Alps, I think it would be really cool if there was a tree controller to go with it; where the trees resemble those found in Switzerland. Plus I've just downloaded the incredible Zurich Switzerland mod by blunder from Simtropolis, and because the map is so huge a tree controller which would spawn trees native to the area would be really handy!

I have no coding experience or modding experience, but as a fan of your work please could you create a Berner Oberland tree controller mod?
Well as it just so happens I do have a tree controller I made for personal use that plops ONLY evergreen alpine/coniferous trees (so basically Girafe's conifer, serbian spruce, common spruce, subalpine firs, abies grandis and a larch here and there).

I didn't make it up to "release" quality - so in other words I didn't take the time to look too deeply into adding detail flora in certain moisture areas or worry too much about tree placement changing a whole lot over elevation.  A lot of the finer details I didn't bother much with... It's pretty straightforward and just plops a great big mixture of all these trees in just about any location.  The only thing I paid close attention to was spacing/forest thickness because I like a good dense evergreen forest on my Alpine terrain, and also making sure the trees don't progress up the cluster-chain too quickly (tree modders, you know what I mean).  That and making sure that trees won't grow on slopes that are too vertical/rocky.

If you're wondering why not release it?  Well as I'm sure other modders could tell you there's a big difference between making something that works and making something that's release-quality.  It's easy to make a functional tree controller, but much harder to make a top-quality one.  Vortext did a fabulous job of this - if you haven't checked it out I encourage you to do so.

I've got a few things laying around I still need to go back and clean up.  In case anyone's wondering I DID make a T21 seasonal streetside tree mod w/VIP flora.  But again, nowhere near being a release-quality mod at this time... I just made a quick and dirty mod for my own region.  May post some pics if time permits.

And sorry I've been away from Sc4 for a few months... I'm still out here keeping a close eye on all the great projects in development.  But real life has definitely commanded a lot of my time lately.  Births, deaths, family members with new jobs, new houses.  All kinds of stuff to deal with and to help out where I can.  And now that it's spring I'm out in the yard all weekend trying to get my lawn and garden cleaned up.  Perhaps once that all settles down (does it ever?) I'll get back to the street mod and some other things.  I never finished the street texture mod or the retaining walls either.  Plenty to do in time.

Cheers,
Daniel
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Gobias on August 01, 2013, 05:10:50 PM
It's been a while since I've checked into the thread here but I've got some new material to show very soon.  Wanted to give a little detail of what I'm working on.  Sorry I don't have any screenshots to post today but look for something later this weekend.

Since several people inquired about a Berner Oberland/Alpine tree controller - and since I kind of already made something along these lines for my own use - I figured I'd take a stab at cleaning this up for release.  That turned into a much larger project than I anticipated so here's the essential structure of the mod I'm making:

The "Alpine" Flora Mod (which will be suitable for use with really any terrain mod) will consist of the following components:

1) A new brush shape:  less "straggler" trees around the outside of the brush and more jagged-edged; useful for planting tree lines you might see lining a pasture in a mountain setting.

2) A seasonal God-Mode Alpine brush with a mix of deciduous and evergreen/conifers at low elevation (I'm using Girafe/CP flora exclusively) but quickly blending into evergreens at mid and high elevations; suitable for mountain terrain.  I pulled data on the flora types in the Swiss Alps to fix the ratio of Maple/Ash/Birch and Spruce/Fir trees in similar fashion.  I'll be mixing in pasture flora and shrub detail.

3) A MAXIS lot flora / tree prop and shrub prop replacement - totally replaces the MAXIS flora with VIP/CP material.  Unfortunately I don't know of a way to make Lot Flora replacements truly seasonal so evergreen in this case will have to do.

4) A total Streetside and Street Tree replacement mod using seasonal VIP flora and numerous other props.  As the intent here was to make this a companion for the BOTM the props will be Euro-Themed.  Sorry NY and HK CJ'ers, though you may still opt to use it even despite the leaning towards European style.  I started out just thinking I'd just replace the trees but figured if I'm editing T21s why not go all out and replace everything from street signs to adding pedestrians, streetside cars, benches, tcans etc.

I'm working on the T21s now and have already finished the Avenue and Road T21s.  Working on the street/one-way and NAM-related addons as we speak.  The only other component that isn't finished is the God-Mode brush which I've still got a bit of work to do.

Again, should post some screenshots in the next few days and will go into more detail, especially with regards to the streetside mod.

Cheers,
Daniel
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: epicblunder on August 01, 2013, 08:53:36 PM
I'm really curious to see what your streetside mod will look like.   :thumbsup:

And don't worry about seasonal lot flora replacement on 3), i don't think that's even possible thanks to plop timing.
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: RepublicMaster on August 01, 2013, 09:18:39 PM
This sounds like a great project! Can't wait to see it! :D Keep up the great work!
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: catty on August 02, 2013, 03:56:34 AM
Quote from: epicblunder on August 01, 2013, 08:53:36 PM
I'm really curious to see what your streetside mod will look like...

ditto ... look forward to seeing some pictures when you are ready   :)
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Rayden on August 02, 2013, 03:59:56 AM
Looking forward to see that coming soon, it's a huge task :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Girafe on August 02, 2013, 04:01:47 AM
Good news, I am really interested in what you have done with the street mods as the ones from Jero / SFBT are outdated  ;)
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: vortext on August 03, 2013, 07:16:33 AM
Ha yes, this all sounds very exciting but. . .you know. . show us pics or it doesn't exist!   ;D :D :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: noahclem on August 03, 2013, 02:18:47 PM
I'm really, really glad to see you're back  &dance

The street mod and tree controller stuff is exciting  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Gobias on August 04, 2013, 04:42:27 PM
Quote from: noahclem on August 03, 2013, 02:18:47 PM
I'm really, really glad to see you're back  &dance
Thanks Noah - I never left but I've been lurking for a few months while I try and find time to get back to modding.

Quote from: Girafe on August 02, 2013, 04:01:47 AM
Good news, I am really interested in what you have done with the street mods as the ones from Jero / SFBT are outdated  ;)
Thanks - of course none of this would be possible without your amazing flora.  I've said it before but I'll say it again: I consider your flora collection the single greatest addition to SC4 by the modding community.  Many would say "NAM" but as I'm a landscaper I'm partial to the flora.  :thumbsup:

Quote from: Rayden on August 02, 2013, 03:59:56 AM
Looking forward to see that coming soon, it's a huge task :thumbsup:
"Huge" is right - the flora/prop replacement and the brush pattern took a day.  The street-side plugin could go for weeks if not a few months!  Only a couple hundred T21s to hand-lot.  The God-Mode brush isn't quite as massive a project but still a challenge to get right.  Simple tree controllers are easy to make.  Complex controllers require a lot planning though.

Thanks all for the interest and kind comments.

Quote from: vortext on August 03, 2013, 07:16:33 AM
Ha yes, this all sounds very exciting but. . .you know. . show us pics or it doesn't exist!   ;D :D :thumbsup:
Ask and ye shall receive...

Now please bear in mind that this is absolutely a work-in-progress and many components are still "under construction"; especially the streetside mod for which I haven't even touched the actual streets yet, just roads/avenues so far, and some of the road T21s aren't finished.  I'm still evaluating the balance of props/trees and making changes to the roads as I test.

Let's start with the MM Flora replacement.  Below shows a before/after of the 5 MAXIS trees and my replacement selection.  Swiss Forestry shows that Maple/Ash are the most common softwood trees in the region while Spruce/Fir are the most common hardwoods.  Beech and Larch are also common.  So I chose Girafe's Maple/Ash/Serbian Spruce/Subalpine Fir and Larch as the five replacements.  Thought about using the Common Spruce but I think the Serbian has a darker color that contrasts well on the brighter grass textures.  I also chose the smallest of his models in order to fit as well as we can into the size of the MAXIS trees which tend to be on the small side.  This should help prevent overcrowding on existing lots:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FFloraComparison_zps62e12a1d.jpg&hash=b981a2dbabb3088e4c5d22d4acc97007964ebdac)

As for the God-Mode controller there will be a wider variety of trees in use including CP seasonal flora, esp Beech and Maples as well as some of the shrubs.  I'll work Girafe and CP bushes into the mix as well as pasture flora including the latest flowering plants from VIP.  Can't screenshot this for you yet since it doesn't exist BUT I do have an older (very simple) controller that I created for my personal use that should give you an idea of what we're going for.  At low elevations we mix evergreen spruce/fir and conifers with Maples/Ash/Beech and other deciduous flora.  Quickly as elevation rises we move into a heavier blend of evergreens and at the higher elevations we change over to all spruce/fir mix.  Again, pic below is a reference and has none of the detail flora included; it is not the final mix but should give an idea of the High/Low elevation distribution:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FGMExample_zpseef4daf2.jpg&hash=feb54b33e26bf6587f65ea0871b797810610cb97)

Next up is the Tree/Shrub and Flower replacement plugin:  this replaces all the MAXIS flora props with ones I've selected.  Here's a before/after comparison.  What you see below is ALL MAXIS.  No other MMP'ing or lotting on my part.  Just basic roads, zones and I let the game do the rest.  Well, my sidewalk and terrain mods are there but you get the idea.  Note that every bush and flower have been replaced, even the topiary was replaced with VIP Cypress since I figured it's a similar match:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FReplaceBefore_zps41d31e3b.jpg&hash=40ab076f642c66c78d0cfcfd79d38b7752fef502)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FReplaceAfter_zpsda96a95b.jpg&hash=54133649dae12978a8e6e45ac96e1a05cb0c0e45)

As far as I can tell it's not possible to replace a MAXIS prop/flora with a seasonal tree since seasonal props are actually a collection of several timed props.  A two-state replacement might be possible but I haven't pushed this... I'm just going to have to stick with evergreen for these replacements.  I paid particular attention to size when selecting the replacements, though that was tough for the MAXIS shrubs since they're so small.  The replacements are a little larger for the shrubs but I think the result is still decent.

On to the street-side...

I've been working on creating little "scenes" with the streetside mod on certain limited T21s just to try and inject a little life into the game.  As long as the T21 isn't too repetitive I think this works well.  Everything from a road-crew to a group of people congregating around a magazine rack to people paying at their parking meters.  Meanwhile I'm sticking to VIP seasonal maple/ash/lindens for the street trees.  Using Girafe's french roadsigns, Nams people props and other selected props, a few of the ol' trusty Porkie props for benches, PYC bollards and CP planters to name just a few.  Dependencies will be quite a few here but most of them are the kind of packs any SC4D player likely already has as they're very common (like SG vol 1, CP's etc).  Cars at roadside are Girafes.  First, let's just show a few details:

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FDetailB_zps4d1ccab3.jpg&hash=1766181cd1dd7de97c93d5010c60ce987844a096)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FDetailC_zps657941e7.jpg&hash=47796ad2a846dc6d4f5b180a70c6e0d31d4524b4)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FDetailD_zps4c72840f.jpg&hash=f42102586843a56970798b5de5d8d763b9678a21)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FDetailA_zps271d8f06.jpg&hash=3ef7605131433820f2c3e633621f1d860952e9df)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FDetails_zpsfbd5189b.jpg&hash=25205f8354a7e57ce5eef17f73a8e55d41a2fb68)

... I plan on putting more foliage on the streets and leaving the roads a little more open since it's a higher capacity network.  Again, everything you see here is road-side so far.  Now here's a few issues I have:

First, unfortunately models for the trees sometimes overtake buildings adjacent to them (example below).  Don't really know a way around this without simply choosing different flora but some of the thinner street-trees from CP aren't necessarily appropriate here or are a little too tall for my taste.  But I welcome opinions:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FModelSize_zps6cad2814.jpg&hash=4e8697fe580413b3df74b6b334d433462a846d0f)

Second:  I'm not totally satisfied with the availability of avenue medians.  I filled some of mine with CP planters.  But there aren't really many alternatives that I can find.  I don't really want to use NAM medians as that would require the NAM as a dependency (I know, who DOESN'T have the NAM installed).  I just don't know it's a good idea to require a 200MB dependency for the mod:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FMedian_zps62d07c46.jpg&hash=b29b5c4f8271d86716568be466bc9c20a666d9b2)

Also, presently my streetside cars are simply parked on the sidewalk.  I could use a decent parking bay.  I'm not much of a batter (and only have GMAX... and I won't begin to tell you how much experience I have using it) so I'm not sure what direction I'm going to go with that.

On the offhand chance anyone wants to contribute a few prop 3DS prop models I certainly would entertain the idea of collaborating on the mod.

And lastly I guess I have a few questions for you guys:
- Do you want to see any changes to the Industrial/Agricultural T21s... if so what type of props?  Trees or no trees?
- What, if any, changes would you want to the NWM T21s... do you want MAVE trees?  I personally think the higher capacity networks like AVE-6 or TLA-7 shouldn't have trees at roadside but perhaps the RD-4, AVE-2 or OWR-1?

As always any suggestions are welcome.  Meanwhile I'll be working on more T21s and the God-Mode brush.

Oh and before I leave, one more Euro-friendly shot for good measure:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1151.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo629%2Fgobias67%2FEuro_zpsc8e62a75.jpg&hash=6fadfe942a0ae0ba7fd8f061db5b41e1cf21db25)

Cheers
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: whatevermind on August 04, 2013, 06:10:46 PM
No palm trees in Switzerland?  ;D

Really incredible work. The maxis mayor mode flora replacement looks like a solid set of choices. As for the god mode brush, well, it kinda makes me want to go find a forest to stand in to soak in the beauty.

The lot replacement flora looks really good, but I wonder if there aren't more colorful flowers out there to replace the Maxis flowers. I realize Maxis' flowers were probably overkill, but there are things like mums that really are just balls of color.

The street scenes are beautiful! I'm not crazy about the cars on the sidewalks, but it sounds like you aren't either.  $%Grinno$% Hopefully you can find a good parking bay to go with them. On the other hand, the flora, benches, newsstands, vendors, peds, road crew, etc. are great! It looks like you have a really good variety going on.

I'll have to take a look at the industrial/agricultural T21's and get back to you on those, but I'd bet there's improvements to be made. Much of what you already have would be appropriate in IHT zones. Things like the road crew, streetlights/signs, and parked cars could be adapted to any zone.
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Flatron on August 05, 2013, 12:07:34 AM
That looks great :thumbsup:, although it is disappointing that you can't replace maxis flora with seasonal trees....
I'd say you could stick with the cars on the sidewalks, but maybe move them a bit so they are placed half on the road/street and half on the sidewalk. Allowing this is a common thing in europe, as well as a possibility to calm traffic down.
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: RepublicMaster on August 05, 2013, 01:35:03 AM
This looks really nice! Can't wait to use it. :D

About the cars on the street, my preference is wider streets to accommodate parking (like I see in my city) but that isn't possible in the scope of this mod. :) So I'm for parking bays. :D
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Swordmaster on August 05, 2013, 02:46:38 AM
Wow - great work. The maxis flora replacement is perfect as far as I'm concerned.

Absent new tree models, there's not much you can do about the streetside trees clipping into the BATs. It'll help that the streets are narrower, so you can move the trees further to the center of the tile. For the roads, you may want to make sure the user can click on a stretch of road with offending T21 and have a smaller tree pop up, while the bigger tree coincides with a smaller building or open space. This would require some micromanagement but would be useful for folks who want to take snapshots of certain scenes.


Cheers
Willy
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Rayden on August 05, 2013, 06:29:44 AM
Beautiful, I love it. Specially that little touch on making the sidewalk seeming that it's standing higher than the road by adding that little shadow on the edge.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: bladeberkman on August 05, 2013, 11:01:03 AM
It's very exciting to see someone tackle such a huge and much-needed project! If I could make a suggestion, it looks as though many of your sidewalk props are HD with a few exceptions. If you wanted to maintain this level of consistency, you might check out Namspopof's Prop Pack Volume 2. There are a handful of HD benches and kiosks included in this pack that are scaled to the new HD Sims. Here is a link to some pictures:

http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=11655.msg391639#msg391639 (http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=11655.msg391639#msg391639)

Also, there is an HD planter created by ukiSim from Japan that might be used in place of CP's planters. I realize this option might be a little obscure, but the planter is very aesthetically pleasing. Here is another link:

http://uki-sim.seesaa.net/article/162986817.html (http://uki-sim.seesaa.net/article/162986817.html)

I'm looking forward to your updates! Can't wait to see where this goes!

-Blade
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: vortext on August 05, 2013, 01:52:07 PM
Excellent work!  &apls

The T21 mod is especially nice. Those little scenes are outstanding! I second bladeberkman's suggestion for a full HD replacement mod, if possible. Also, if you're interested to add a little more variety, I've got the timed prop exemplars for the Fagus & Aescelia and the VIP Rural trees still lying around.. Also, you might want to look into correcting Maxis' T21s (http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=12539.msg367008#msg367008).

The flora replacement mod is also very nicely done in terms of size. Too bad it seems impossible to make it seasonal as well.  &mmm

The tree controller sounds promising! Can't wait to see more details and frankly, I'm glad it's not me this time!  :D

Quote from: whatevermind on August 04, 2013, 06:10:46 PM
No palm trees in Switzerland?  ;D

Heh, guess you're in for a surprise when you visit Geneva.  ;)
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Stewey on November 25, 2013, 05:26:10 PM
Quote from: Indiana Joe on December 31, 2012, 01:16:25 PM
Uzil:  you need the Reader tool to fix that problem. http://sc4devotion.com/csxlex/lex_filedesc.php?lotGET=656 (http://sc4devotion.com/csxlex/lex_filedesc.php?lotGET=656)

In the Reader, you need to open the Terrain Parameters file of the terrain mod in your plugins folder.  In that file, there should only be a few entries.  Click on the one that says "Exemplar...Y..." and has the most text.  In that entry, you need to find the MaxNormalYForCliff value.  Change that to 0.85 and it will fix the diagonal problem.

However, a side effect of doing that is that more rock textures will show up throughout your terrain.

Hope that helps!

I have the same problem, but in the reader all of the Name Values show up as "Unknown" so finding the "MaxNormalYForCliff" value is difficult. The terrain mod is Gobias' Sudden Valley and I'm using SV Properties Low Alt.dat.

Any help would be appreciated.
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Indiana Joe on November 25, 2013, 05:40:59 PM
Quote from: Stewey on November 25, 2013, 05:26:10 PM
Quote from: Indiana Joe on December 31, 2012, 01:16:25 PM
Uzil:  you need the Reader tool to fix that problem. http://sc4devotion.com/csxlex/lex_filedesc.php?lotGET=656 (http://sc4devotion.com/csxlex/lex_filedesc.php?lotGET=656)

In the Reader, you need to open the Terrain Parameters file of the terrain mod in your plugins folder.  In that file, there should only be a few entries.  Click on the one that says "Exemplar...Y..." and has the most text.  In that entry, you need to find the MaxNormalYForCliff value.  Change that to 0.85 and it will fix the diagonal problem.

However, a side effect of doing that is that more rock textures will show up throughout your terrain.

Hope that helps!

I have the same problem, but in the reader all of the Name Values show up as "Unknown" so finding the "MaxNormalYForCliff" value is difficult. The terrain mod is Gobias' Sudden Valley and I'm using SV Properties Low Alt.dat.

Any help would be appreciated.

I just tested it with the SV mod and it works fine for me.  What version of the Reader are you trying to use?
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: xannepan on November 25, 2013, 10:50:50 PM
I second (third :) the suggestions for a full HD replacement mod. Two weeks ago I created my own maxis tree replacement mod to HD. Didn't spend too much time on it and yours is definetely better thought through. I did create a HD palm tree model though, which I'd be happy to upload for you to include.

As for replacing the maxis tree props with seasonal versions I also haven't been able to find a solution. I actually was looking into the possibility of having a prop exemplar point to another exemplar instead of to a RKT. Unfortunately, that does not seem to be possible... Too bad... It'd open up so great new modding possibilities.

Just one warning: you are replacing maxis props originally included in simcity dat files. Just make sure the total memory size of the replacement exemplar is exactly the same size then the maxis exemplar. I suspect otherwise you will end up with the prop pox (not 100% sure here, but I remember reading somewhere ) So replacing the maxis flora with seasonal flora (where you add reps to the RKT4) is a concern.

-Alex




Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: vortext on November 26, 2013, 01:19:49 AM
Quote from: Stewey on November 25, 2013, 05:26:10 PM
I have the same problem, but in the reader all of the Name Values show up as "Unknown"

Under 'option->options' you have to point the Reader towards the XML properties file. It's located in the installation folder, full name tropod_Properties.xml
Title: Re: Breaking Ground: Terrain and Waterworks
Post by: Stewey on November 26, 2013, 04:03:41 AM
Indiana Joe, I am using version 0.9.3.

Vortext, thanks this has solved the problem.

It was pointing to that file, but I think it was corrupted somehow as I reinstalled in reader and set it up again and low and behold it has worked.

Cheers guys, and Gobias, your mods are fantastic thanks for the time and effort you have put into making them. :)