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High Definition Props and Textures - Discussion thread

Started by mightygoose, March 28, 2009, 01:38:50 PM

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delta9

Quote from: beutelschlurf on April 28, 2009, 08:18:38 AM
moin guys,

fantastic work everybody ...  :thumbsup:
i've got a question though ... shall we do buildings in HD from now ... or better not?
i ask because my english is not as good to understand everything you talking about ... :P
are you guys doing your buildings in HD?

thanx
b_schlurf
There's certainly no reason why you couldn't, but if you are looking to do a building the texture topic will be more of what you're looking for.  Of course, there's no HD textures available yet, and seeing as how you can't do some CSI magic ("Enhance, enhance, enhance...") you'll have to do everything from scratch, unless someone wants to give you their original texture image files ;)

Unless I'm missing something... I don't do this stuff, I just try to understand it. :thumbsup:

SimFox

Quote from: delta9 on May 02, 2009, 03:46:58 PM
...but if you are looking to do a building the texture topic will be more of what you're looking for. 

why's that?

delta9

Quote from: SimFox on May 02, 2009, 10:07:20 PM
why's that?
Quote from: delta9 on May 02, 2009, 03:46:58 PM
Unless I'm missing something... I don't do this stuff, I just try to understand it. :thumbsup:

As I mentioned... I'm not an experienced expert but at the same time I'm at least trying to contribute to a subject I basically understand (and like I said, if I don't, please constructively correct me, unless I have missed the entire point of this community...) I only suggested he research the texture topic because I hadn't seen a post from him in it, and texturing the building seems more basic a step than propping the lot (not that either is unimportant), because it seemed as if he basically wanted to make an entire lot "from the ground up".  I'm trying to contribute what [I think] I know and learn what I don't, but at the same time I don't want to be the next victim of yet another pedantic tongue-lashing in this topic  ::)

Diggis

Quote from: delta9 on May 05, 2009, 09:28:19 PM
As I mentioned... I'm not an experienced expert but at the same time I'm at least trying to contribute to a subject I basically understand (and like I said, if I don't, please constructively correct me, unless I have missed the entire point of this community...) I only suggested he research the texture topic because I hadn't seen a post from him in it, and texturing the building seems more basic a step than propping the lot (not that either is unimportant), because it seemed as if he basically wanted to make an entire lot "from the ground up".  I'm trying to contribute what [I think] I know and learn what I don't, but at the same time I don't want to be the next victim of yet another pedantic tongue-lashing in this topic  ::)

Delta, what beutelschlurf is talking about when he says a building is the actual structure.  In terms of the game and BAT they are constructed the same way, just larger than props normally.  So they could be rendered using the scripts from SimFox, but there may be issues with pressures on the computer.

The textures that are in the HD texture thread are for the base of the Lot which the building sits on.  :thumbsup:

z

Throughout this thread, I notice that there have been a number of questions asked about which textures are used for which zooms, but which were never answered.  So I did a number of experiments; here are the results:

1. If all five zooms are present, the texture used is the one for the appropriate zoom, and the sixth zoom is constructed from the fifth.  I did Diggis' experiment, actually replacing the Zoom 5 texture with something completely different.  I did the experiment twice, first with an SD texture, then with an HD texture.  Only Zooms 5 and 6 were affected.  So HD textures do not propagate through the other zooms - at least not down.

2. If only Zoom 1 is present, the game will compute all the other zooms from the Zoom 1 data.  So if you make your HD texture Zoom 1 and omit all the others, you'll get HD textures for all zooms.  However, it's not clear that this will really make a difference in the way the texture looks, especially at the lower zooms.

3. If you only have some zooms, but they include Zoom 1, then the existing zooms are used, and the remaining ones are computed from the highest zoom present.  For example, if you have Zooms 1 through 3, Zooms 4 through 6 are computed from the data in Zoom 3.

4. If you have only some zooms, but Zoom 1 is not present, then only the zooms that are present are used.  If another zoom is referred to, you get nothing.  The one exception to this rule is that if Zoom 5 is present, Zoom 6 is always computed.

vershner

Quote from: z on May 13, 2009, 11:57:32 PM
2. If only Zoom 1 is present, the game will compute all the other zooms from the Zoom 1 data.  So if you make your HD texture Zoom 1 and omit all the others, you'll get HD textures for all zooms.  However, it's not clear that this will really make a difference in the way the texture looks, especially at the lower zooms.
It will probably look worse, because SC4's scaling is not as good as Photoshop's. I found this when testing a new HSR track. Currently it only has models for 128x128. Using 256x256 textures worked, but looks very poor when zoomed out.

choco

it looks way worse.....i tried this with a couple bridges, and it looked real bad. 

z

Quote from: vershner on May 14, 2009, 04:57:13 AM
It will probably look worse, because SC4's scaling is not as good as Photoshop's.

I can certainly believe that.  Since a lot of people use SC4Tool to generate a group of textures, how does SC4Tool's scaling compare to the game's?

cogeo

HSR/GHSR uses models through a Resource Key Type 3 property, but with the models for all zooms being the same. Effectively this is equivalent to using Resource Key Type 0. Anyways.

Unless someone makes separate textures (and models) for the high-res and lo-res zooms (which is a lot of work), we should stick to 128x128, for the reasons discussed above. And even for the closest zooms, the high-res texture is not considerably better, instead the "improvement" is barely noticable. And there is an explanation for this, if you move to 256x256, its's the screen resolution that becomes the limiting factor then (btw has anybody experimented with other resolutions, eg 192x192? - this would be the ideal one). Switching to HD makes most sense for models, and the reason isn't mostly the low resolution, but instead the unacceptably poor quality of BAT "rendering"). HSR uses "models" too, but their textures aren't exported by the BAT, instead they are made manually. That's why making HSR HD isn't a right decision.

Jonathan

It isnt a good idea to make HSR HD because of it uses one model for all zooms (the reason for this is because I only knew how to do it that way when I made it) if there was a model for each zoom then it would look better HD, well only the track would look better, HSR is exactly the same type of model as Bud's El-Rail conversion. And when he showed the HD textures next to the SD ones you can notice the difference, but Bud's mod has models for each zoom I believe so you don't get artifacting (plop a RHW puzzle piece and zoom out there will be a few bright white pixels)

Jonathan

benvoliothefirst

Holy tap-dancing Santa... it works! (Please excuse the silly excuse for a BAT... just something I threw together for testing purposes, obviously.



The model size went from 90 kb to 236 kb... but man, what a difference that makes at zoom six. Perhaps people will start uploading a ploppable and a growable... and then a "zoom 6 enabled" ploppable and growable? So those who want a sexy zoom six can have it, and those who just want smaller models can have that too.

As far as the script organization, I think that the system works fine the way it is, but maybe you could have the controls in both the export tab and the preview tab... that way you wouldn't set it to SD in the preview tab and then try to export without switching it to HD accidentally. Does that make sense?

SimFox

HD version of Bat4Max has been released.

It can be downloaded here: LINK, or on STEX

Here is a info and support thread: LINK

MAS71

@Simfox
Oh!!
Thank you so much for sharing and I'm waiting for this time !!   :D I'll try to this quickly.  ;)
btw, Where thread is support thread about this script in SC4D ??
Here? or B.A.T. Help ?


#### Edited ####
I'm using scripts set "ALN Bat4Max V3.0" now.
Please tell me what file should I overwrite(or change) to existing files ??
Can I add a function only HD-exporting to existing functions ??
(Is your script-set are compatible with ALN's scripts?)


SimFox

#413
[...]

There are differences between Chris's BAT4MAX scripts and the ones I've developed. They each [I will insert description later]. In addition, mine will [I will insert description later].  This happened because, while Chris and I started this project working together, he was absent from the community for an extended time. Rather than wait for him to return, with the help of others at Simtropolis I continued development of the script.  One of the things that was done during this time was to integrate HD export functionality.  As a result of this situation, my BAT4MAX script and Chris's are not interchangeable, nor will components of my script work as 'add-ons' to his.

MAS71

@Simfox
Ok, I understand well.  ;)
I'll change all files and try to export for HDProp later.
I belive that your scripts are really one of the Big Helps for us MAX users. It's a ture.  :thumbsup:
and I hope that your works will become one of ScriptsSet in near future too.  ;)
(an aggregate of good functions.)

Thank you again Simfox.  :)

z

RTMT will soon be releasing its first HD props for its stations.  I would gather that at this point, no one has a problem with that.  At one point, I was thinking that we would release both HD and SD versions of our props, but as we are gradually going to be redoing all our props in HD, and then making diagonal versions of these props on top of that, that would be a lot of props.  And based on the experiments I've done and published here, other people's experience, and the size and number of RTMT props compared to the game as a whole, at this point I can see no reason not to go ahead and just release HD-only versions of our props.  This would be done slowly, starting with new props.  Does anyone have a major objection to this?

jeronij

Sooner or later the HD props will rise...  ::) ... so I cant find any objection  ;)
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Pat

Steve I wouldn't see why the problem would be at all??? Since it seems HD is coming and all the experienced BATters are going HD anyways....

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CasperVg

I did some small testing on the subject myself, and this is the result.
The model used in these tests is a (slightly) modified version of Warpedone's Hex Corporation (GMax File), as I do not have the skills to BAT something decent myself.

I rendered my modifications in both HD and SD (using SimFox' script for the BAT), and these are the results.


Both buildings placed side by side in Zoom 5


SD Render in Zoom 6


HD Render in Zoom 6

And some data:
[tabular type=1]
[row][head][/head][head]HD Version[/head][head]SD Version[/head][/row]
[row][data]Render Time (sec):[/data][data]22126 sec[/data][data]6909 sec[/data][/row]
[row][data]Render Time (hours):[/data][data]~ 6 hours[/data][data]~ 2 hours[/data][/row]
[row][data]File Size (Mb):[/data][data]~ 4 Mb[/data][data]~ 2 Mb[/data][/row][/tabular]
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Bobbi

@caspervg
I think some kinds of buildings needn't render in HD. Such as pencil towers, a building without a good detail and etc...

---Bobbi

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