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Three Rivers Region

Started by dedgren, December 20, 2006, 07:57:49 PM

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c.p.

#2900
Quote from: dedgren on February 14, 2008, 09:30:08 AMJust a quickie...

I've now preserved all of c.p.'s old seasonal trees in a new dat file.  It took a long time to "bucket brigade" them out of the old prop pack in the Ilive Reader, and I'm still sorting out the TGI stuff.  c.p., if you see this, I'd love to have your thoughts on  preserving these more colorful "old" seasonal trees as a way to add bright touches (as in RL) to the new autumn scene.


As a matter of fact I did see this  :D
They'll need new TGIs to do what you're trying to do.  (But you've probably figured that out already).  What you can do is take the LODs in the attached zip file and render each in the BAT, and then take the fsh files you saved from the old prop pack and renumber them to the TGIs the BAT assigns to the newly "rendered" LODs.  (Quick and easy to do in ilive.)  Delete the blank FSH files in the newly rendered LODs and replace them with the ones you saved (assuming they're the same trees of course.)

Also, I took a look at your atlas with its oodles upon oodles of professional-quality  maps (and creatively named points of interest) and all I can say is wow, you're a true madman.  (And I mean that as a compliment. ;))

Darmok

Hi Joan, (Jmouse)
For the sake of argument, I've done what you asked for...
You'll see the result in the pics below.
I would not recommend that orientation though for a simple reason; ergonomics...
Everything we do in life is conditioned (at least in the western hemisphere) by a "left to right" natural reflex, even in art practically every composition is created with a left to right eye movement, and we apply this principle in everything we do.
In the design business we do that everyday (consciously or not), including such trivial things as comic strips, you will rarely see someone moving from right to left, the characters almost always move in a left to right fashion, the same way we read. (save some cultural exceptions of course...)
So in the same way if you place a figurative asymmetrical symbol in a right to left movement position, it'll look as if it is going backward... Note that this rule would not necessarily apply to a symmetrical or non-figurative object for obvious reasons.

So here's the two versions side by side so you can compare.


To be thorough and to be consistent with the idea of keeping the design simple here's an even more Zen proposition.


Take care
-John
http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=112.last#last

If you have a closed mind, do the same with your mouth

bat

The flags are looking really great! Fantastic work so far!
Looking forward to more...

mightygoose

maybe try an uber zen version... no trees and no dogtooth on the mountain....
NAM + CAM + RAM + SAM, that's how I roll....

emilin

Actaully, looking at Darmoks sketches once again I had a few more thoughts on the subject.

1. The design is great, but does it really look like a national flag? The amount of details and the way the stylized beaver gives me associations to something like a national park or nature reserve. I know we all think of 3RR more or less in that way since no development has taken place yet, but looking at the actual development plans it is a rather industrialized area that the project is heading for.

2. The proportions are, once again, very well balanced - but are they consistent with how national flags are usually made? Of course all flags are different, depending on the historic time they were designed, cultural and religious references, etc (there is even one national flag that doesn't conisist of a rectagular piece of fabric) but some proportions are more common than other. Darmok's 3RR flag consists mostly of areas that are derived for parts of 1/2 and 1/5 of the total area. This is very uncommon for national flags as opposed the most common parts of 1/3 or division according to the "golden rule".

3. The beaver. Animals are pretty common on national flags (though mostly eagles and stuff like that) and I do think a stylized beaver is very proper. It might be a little to "flowing" in it's design for my taste though. A monochrome silouette would be worth a try, in my opinion.

Now, I am really sorry if I seem to be whining. The flag suggestion for Darmok is excellent. It's just that you seem to enjoy doing that stuff so much - that I thought it wouldn't hurt with some input. ;D Just ignore me if I am bothering you.

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Pat

John the origanel flag is still far the best IMHO....

Don't forget the SC4D Podcast is back and live on Saturdays @ 12 noon CST!! -- The Podcast soon to Return Here Linkie

Darmok

#2906
Hi Emilin
Hey no bother at all, all comments are welcome!
Let's look at your points...
1.
a) The amount of details: Well there are two things that can be described as details, first the beaver and second the forest, because both elements are either small (the forest) and rather figurative than symbolic (the beaver) the other elements are pretty simple and big.
b) The fact that the region is heading towards industrialization... Well, even if this prove true, look at all the flag of the world and you will not find a lot who have industry related artifact on their flag they rather go towards more basic symbols like a blue line (sky) over a yellow line for wheat fields... (Ukraine), in this case I chose green for the vast plains in 3RR, three blue stripes for the three rivers and white stripes for the snow (which serves a double purpose here by giving some contrast to the blue lines).
2.
a)The proportions.
Good point, to be sure that there would be no gripes on this, I used the American Flag proportions 10:19 Source: Vexila Mundi Website  (on the bottom of the page you scroll until you find the letter U then choose United States) You're right about the flag that is not rectangular, it's the Nepal flag that consist of two overlapping triangles.
b)The composition.
Well, flags are a very subjective matter, and you'll find lots of examples who use, or not, the rules of composition, including the golden rule. A lot of flags are simply symmetric compositions. Others are way to complicated. Somewhere along the line you have to go with what please you as a designer even if don't follow the rule to the letter, the whole thing should appeal to you even if it's not a textbook example of those rules.
3.
The Beaver
On this, I must admit that I'm still not sure... I agree that the "flowing style" is less consistent with the rest of the design... as for the monochrome silhouette, I'm also not sure just because it would be a massive and "curved" element that would clash against the rather angular nature of the rest of the design. Agreed that the current one is also clashing by it's curvy lines, it is less imposing though due to its "outlined" design opposed to the bulk of a solid mass that a silhouette would bring. My opinion on this one would be to either take it as it is, or, simply remove it like in the last example I've made, which would give a more "dignified" look if you get my drift. (not wanting to sound too serious here...)

I welcome any comments as long as they are constructive.
So please Emilin, don't think you're bothering me, to the contrary I find it stimulating that people are taking the time to analyze my design and write about it!
For more information on flags I refer you to the following web site
Nava.org Website
they have a pdf version that is very informative. 

All this being said, like all designers, at one point one must stand by his choices.
If not, the design process would never end. (What would make me continue further would be if we would like to add some symbols on the flag.)
So for now...as far as I'm concerned there are two valid choices in my propositions and they are shown in the pics below.

WITH THE BEAVER


WITHOUT THE BEAVER


And let's not forget that someone else can propose something better!

PAT
Thanks for your support, and somewhere, we must not forget that this is just a game after all... hehehe  ;)

Take care
-John

EDITED:
To John (mightygoose)
I'm still working on a more Zen one... back in a few...
http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=112.last#last

If you have a closed mind, do the same with your mouth

dedgren

#2907
Okay- John, you are clearly 3RR's Betsy Ross [linkie].  Everyone else who's commented, all I can say is that the input and discussion and well-supported and principled points of view are a credit to all of you.  This is way harder than I ever thought...

So, here's my take on where things stand at present.  It's quite likely, unless 3RR would have changed its flag over the years, that the design would reflect the sensibilities of the time- here the 1830s or 1840s.  I don't think stylized beavers existed in 1830 (although I guess if one was chewing enough jimson weed [linkie]...).

Seriously, while there were some beautiful and evocative flags created in that era (check out this website for a taste [linkie]) any art used tended to be pretty prosaic in nature.  Even the little cleft in the mountains John has used would have been, in my not very scholarly opinion, unlikely for a flag of this time.

I've thus fairly inartfully Photoshopped two variants of John's flag design, the first, per John's (mightygoose) suggestion, with no beaver or mountain notch at all.



The second brings back our 1800s-era Audobon-style [linkie] beaver and places it in the upper right-hand corner of our previous effort.



The beaver image would have likely been embroidered on a flag created in the first 100 years of 3RR's existence.  That's pretty tough to duplicate, at least for me.

Anyway, I'll back out and see what everyone thinks.  Again, I'm really enjoying the discussion.

* * *

c.p., thanks so much!  More back to you and on the whole topic later.

* * *

A huge 3RR thank you to Joan (Jmouse) and Dustin (thundercrack83) who, as this is written, are doing the really hard work of bringing the table of contents up to date.

* * *

20 to go!



Later.


David
D. Edgren

Please call me David...

Three Rivers Region- A collaborative development of the SC4 community
The 3RR Quick Finder [linkie]


I aten't dead.  —  R.I.P. Granny Weatherwax

Skype: davidredgren

emilin

#2908
Thanks for the response Darmok. And I do believe there was a point emphazied above others on the Nava site: "Never let a committé design a flag" :D


EDITHeh, Emil- You've got that one right!  I doubt Betsy Ross asked anyone.  Btw, you'll be receiving your first Oak Leaf Cluster [linkie] as a Double-0 member. -DE

BlackwaterEmil's inn
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thundercrack83

Very appropriate quote, emilin!

There's a lot of different variations for the flag out there now, I wonder which one will be the winner?

Darmok

Here's some stationery that could be derived from the elements of the flag.... that's one of the perk of keeping the elements symbolic or "logo-like".

(this my first attempt at creating a mini mosaic here I hope it'll work!)




With all the respect I have for you David, I still believe that the official seal should not be used on a flag, save perhaps as Emilin was saying as a flag for a National Park or Reserve, or perhaps even a Presidential flag.

That beaver seal you're using do you have it in high resolution? I'd like to have a crack at it to remove the "fringe" effect, so we could have a better look at it.

As for comparing me to Betsy Ross... I've been compared top worse... hehehe...

-John
http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=112.last#last

If you have a closed mind, do the same with your mouth

Pat

LoL now that is a good one David that John would be our Betsy Ross lol...  David I knew once you said are doing a flag for 3RR it would open up a can of worms and get gears a turning lol.... Something Ive also learned in 3RR is "that not all as it seems" hmmm I wonder where I heard that comment before in here???

John that stationary turned out great!! Is there a chance for an english translation?? 

Don't forget the SC4D Podcast is back and live on Saturdays @ 12 noon CST!! -- The Podcast soon to Return Here Linkie

Gaston

Okay,   I've been looking in on this flag discussion.   I love the evolution of this flag.    I know a bit about heraldry (which flags fall under) and have a couple of suggestions that might help.   

Someone mentioned the "metals" and "colors" aspect of the flag.    This is very true.    Normally there are 2 metals,    "OR" = gold / yellow and "ARGENT" = silver / white.   And then there are the colors, "SABLE" = black, "VERT" = green, "GULES" = red, "AZURE" = blue, "PURPURE" = purple and a few others that are not as common.   Also there are some furs, but those are not really an option here.   [ Heraldry Linkie ]           Very very rarely do you place a metal on a metal or similar colors on top of each other. (no white on gold or blue on purple)   

The colors on the flag are fantastic!    This is really great.    I would however suggest the we run a narrow black line along the border of the gold and the rest of the flag.    This would make a distinction between the white and gold.    I wish I had the software to draw this up but I think you can figure out what I mean.

I really can't tell you how much I like this flag.    From it I will be happy to try and create a "coat of arms" for 3RR.   I can always hand draw it and fax it to someone to put on the computer.



---Gaston
白龍

They say that the memory is the second thing that goes....
...dang , I wish I could remember the first.
WooHoo made Councilman - 05 FEB 07 Yipee made Mayor - 13 MAR 07 Hip Hip Hooray made Governor - 04 AUG 07 Rock On made Senator - 15 MAR 09

Jmouse

That's some interesting info on heraldry, Gaston. Looking at my own family coat of arms, nearly every point you made holds true. The shield is white with three green wheels and a green "^" - all outlined in black. The metal is copper or bronze, but I've not seen that color on any flags I can recall.

Anyway, I never gave it much thought until now, but I love looking at things from a newly-discovered perspective!

Until March 12...
Joan

mightygoose

press release looks brilliant john, maybe you could talk to david about a public press release to non collaboration members as an intro to the project.. using you stationary.....

as to the flag, im really impressed at how te no beaver no notch flag turned out, i'd love to see a less shiny version of a couple of them is thats at all possible.... i don't think flags are made of silk :P
NAM + CAM + RAM + SAM, that's how I roll....

bat

Great flag there! And the top of the article is looking wonderful, Darmok!! :thumbsup:

Darmok

Hi Gaston
Glad you like the flag, and Heraldry is a very interesting field, though you see  big differences in coat of arms and flags design.
Coat of arms, in my opinions, as well as seals are much more beautiful things than flags, they are intricate and detailed designs and you could almost compare coat of arms to jewellery, in fact a lot of jewellery is derived from them, medals, official decorations and such...
I understand what you mean by the black line outlining the yellow mass, but again, if there is no "reason" or "symbol" behind it I would not put it there for the same reason I've given a few post back, flags should be kept as simple as they can be so they can be recognized very easily, as for the fact that you can't put yellow and white on top of each other, well I wont argue with you on heraldry, but if you look at all the country (not organizational, religious or administrative) flags, you'll see examples where yellow or orange are put alongside white, (India, Ireland, Côte d'Ivoire, Niger...).
The main point is, a flag is not an illustration or a drawing where, like in cartoons, you HAVE to outline elements to make them stand out, I believe that they stand well enough by themselves their color mass giving them enough definition without the added complexity of a small line that will distract the eye.
A coat of arms though, often have so many details that you do have to outline the different elements so you can distinguish them.
I don't pretend to be an expert on flags, I really am not, I'm a graphic designer and I approach that flag design process like a logo design process where the KISS rule applies to it's fullest. Look at all the very successful logos, they have the simplest and elegant design there is (Nike, Mercedes, Shell, BMW, etc...)
This turns out to be a very interesting debate.
So many point of views!
As for a 3RR coat of arms, if ever there is one, as you have an expertise in that domain you could send me your scanned design and I would be happy to help you put it in a digital format, I'm working with Adobe Illustrator and Photoshop, if you create both an outlined and a colored version of it, and scan it at a high resolution I could trace it in illustrator so it could be transfered to any size without loss of details.
Well I'm off to work now.
Later...

-John

P.S. For the sake of argument, and against my personal taste... hehehe
I've done what you asked for, here's how it would look with a black line...



See you!

P.P.S.
I just saw John (mightygoose) post.
Hi John,
In fact flags were often made in silk, it's a VERY resistant fabric, though I doubt that they are still made with it these days, they probably are done in the cheapest and strongest material in a sweatshop somewhere in the world...
The shiny effect is only there to give a more 3D look to the illustration, it turns out shinier when I transform it in a jpg... I've tried to tone it down in the version above... Hope you like it that way.
Bye for now...
I really have to run if I don't want to be late....  ;)
-John

P.P.S.
Thanks Bat, just saw your post before putting mine!
http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=112.last#last

If you have a closed mind, do the same with your mouth

rooker1

Hello,

I don't want to pretend I know anything about flags or Heraldry, but I can tell you I have learned quite a bit through this conversation and I can tell you what I like.  I still think the colours looked better when they were solid and not with that texture.  I agree with John about the black lines.  I think they should all go.  The black line on the mountain and the black border.
Other than that, I love the flag and the letter head even more.  Great work everyone.  It's nice to hear everyone's thoughts and see what becomes of it all.

Robin  :thumbsup:
Call me Robin, please.

dedgren

Well, almost the weekend.  I have a short trial this afternoon, then have pretty much the time 'til Monday to work on collaboration stuff.

* * *

I think that this is our base flag.



That's a beautiful thing, and the notch and trees have grown on me over the last little bit.  The question remains open as to whether some version of a beaver should appear in the upper-right quarter, but I'm going to leave that to continued discussion.  John (Darmok) and all who have participated in this effort, my hat is off to you!  Thank you for showing, at a very timely moment, the power of all of us thinking about 3RR at the same time.

I'll post the highest-res pic I can find of the beaver from the Great Seal here later today.  I like the stylized beaver very much on the press release (thanks again, John!) but not so much on the flag, which I still view as an artifact of the 19th Century.  But, as I said, I'll leave that question open- perhaps others have images of beaver that they would like to propose.

John (mightygoose), for some reason I kept looking for scat behind the one on your last flag post, so I think that one's out.

I don't have a strong feeling about the whole metallic/silk thing.  We could certainly look at our design in some different textures.  Ultimate, though, we will need a rectangular flag pic done in high-res with solid colors as one of our available variations.

* * *

Al- Welcome back!  We'd love to see you take a whack at a coat-of-arms.  Let me know if you need anything- I feel really great that we've got all this flags and heraldry talent on board.

* * *

We're into the teens!



Later.


David
D. Edgren

Please call me David...

Three Rivers Region- A collaborative development of the SC4 community
The 3RR Quick Finder [linkie]


I aten't dead.  —  R.I.P. Granny Weatherwax

Skype: davidredgren

Darmok

#2919
David, all you have to do is ask...  ()stsfd()
Here's a straight version, no sheen, no frills, hold the beaver...  ::)



I agree with you about not putting the beaver on the flag, but to keep it for documents, administrative flags or seals and other purpose.
And more so we can use both version, the old fashion one, which is beautiful, for the official seal, decorations and such, and the stylized one for more "modern" use, like administrative stationery, forms etc...
When we finalize the choice, as it is done in vectorial format, I'll prepare several version of it (from very small to big... for everyone to use) this way we don't have to scale it up or down and thus loose quality.

Have a good weekend everyone!

Personally I'm out to a wine, cheese, foie gras and french baguette (a real one) diner.... Ahhhhhhh!  :satisfied:

Later

-John



Edited: placed a corrected jpg
http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=112.last#last

If you have a closed mind, do the same with your mouth