SC4 Devotion Forum Archives

SC4D Off Topic Section => Computer Hardware and Software - Technical Discussion and Support => Topic started by: Jonathan on June 15, 2008, 01:54:20 AM

Title: Connecting to a network for the first time
Post by: Jonathan on June 15, 2008, 01:54:20 AM
I have just installed Vista onto a second hand PC so it can be used as a Media Center PC (it meets the min specs) , I have installed the drivers for my wireless card (Belkin G PCI card)and device manager reports that "the device is working correctly" but when I go to the connect to window no networks show up. It's not out of range because I have a laptop connected to same network right next to it with full strength. The Router is anĀ  Belkin N1 Vision and the latop has a G card in it.
I have a Creatix wireless card, but that just causes the computer to crash ,and when turned back on just restarts in a loop.

Any help will be most appreciated.

-Jonathan

EDIT:I found a USB dongle thing and that seems to wok properly and I can connect to the internet but I'd prefer it if I coud use the internal one
Title: Re: Connecting to a network for the first time
Post by: XiahouDun on June 15, 2008, 02:17:22 AM
I went and read some reviews of the network card and have found that it seems to be a little hit or miss. It seems to have issues with range and connectivity. Have you used the card in any other computer/operating system? I've seen a few mentions if it being fussy with Vista.

So suggestions would be:
Test it on another system if you haven't
Reinstall the PCI card into a different slot
Reinstall the software/drivers that came with it
Move the card closer to the router
Try seperating the Laptop and the desktop to see if there may be a conflict with the proximity

If all those fail and nobody else has a suggestion, I've heard pretty good reviews about Belkin's customer service :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Connecting to a network for the first time
Post by: HandsOn on June 15, 2008, 06:30:55 AM
Before I can add any detailed remarks, you will need to add some details yourself, primarily the PC specs. Off hand I would say that your laptop's connection to the router will work by default, probably because it was the first one there. Do check the router's manual for info on how it deals with multiple access clients: IP addresses do matter. If your ISP provides you with a fixed IP address, you will reconfigure both the desktop and the laptop to use Internet sharing - which can be a pain under Vista. Additionally, at least until you have a working connection, your desktop's external security should be switched off. Although routers, if they are correctly configured, can operate without one, I would need to know if you are using a hub.

Finally, and this is a random guess: check your services under Control Centre - > Administrative Tools. See if the RPC Listener and Network Discovery are actually anabled (both automatically) and if they started at all.

One last question: can you connect from the laptop to the desktop via straight cable or wireless (Peer-to-Peer or VPN mode, share a folder on each pc with full admin rights to test).

Networking in Vista isn't as simple as Ms would like everyone believe.. >:(
Title: Re: Connecting to a network for the first time
Post by: Shadow Assassin on June 15, 2008, 06:55:48 AM
QuoteDo check the router's manual for info on how it deals with multiple access clients: IP addresses do matter.

Generally, from my experience, most (if not all) routers assign an unique internal address to each computer on the network [usually 192.168.0.x, where x is the number of the PC between 2 and 255; 192.168.0.1 is reserved for the router], while the router is the gateway to the Internet, and as a result, is assigned a single address... your ISP will see your router as a single computer.

Anyway, you may have to try a new card... but since you're using this computer as a media centre, it'd be a far better option connecting it up to the router [hope there's some Ethernet ports on the back!], since if you want to play back movies via that computer, the additional bandwidth would be very helpful... wireless doesn't exactly allow that [unless you're using wireless N, which has a theoretical bandwidth of 300Mbps]. Since you're using a N-compatible router, why not invest in a wireless-N card for that PC?

Is it at all possible to put the media centre PC next to the router. You shouldn't need a monitor for it; in fact you can run it from another PC via Remote Desktop or another client.

QuoteI have installed the drivers for my wireless card (Belkin G PCI card)and device manager reports that "the device is working correctly" but when I go to the connect to window no networks show up. It's not out of range because I have a laptop connected to same network right next to it with full strength.

Oh, and incidentally... laptop wireless receivers tend to be somewhat stronger than their desktop counterparts. It really depends on the brand of the card... and size does matter in terms of the antenna. For instance, in my room, I could only get "Very Good" strength using my desktop's wireless card, which was a Linksys 54Mbps wireless G card... while with my laptop I get "Excellent" signal, which has a Wireless N receiver with Range Extender [which, well, increases the strength of the signal/increases sensitivity of the antenna]. On the other hand, with a Netgear card in that same PC, I could not get a signal at all. In my case for all of them, the router was located at the opposite end of the house.

Where is the router located in proximity to the computer? If it's on the other side of the house, that's pretty much your issue. :P
Title: Re: Connecting to a network for the first time
Post by: HandsOn on June 15, 2008, 07:04:36 AM
Shadow Assassin is of course correct in 98% of the cases  :thumbsup:. Not in mine, though, which is why I mentioned it. I have a direct connection - the router/switch gets the original three IP addresses my ISP provides and I configured it to use these rather than the more common 192 range because I connect to an off-site server managed by my ISP - which the buggers managed to down today without prior warning  :angrymore: - that's the draw back of this scheme.

I tend to forget that tou will be having indeed a 192 block passing from the router to the PC's. Which still means that you will have to have alook at its configuration by typing 192.168.0.1 into the address bar of your browser. But - and that is a big but - unless you are familiar with this kind of setup, you need to be very careful what you do. The manual that came with the router explains this in more detail
Title: Re: Connecting to a network for the first time
Post by: Jonathan on June 15, 2008, 07:41:17 AM
The router is pretty much on the other side of the house, but the house isn't that big.
The Card is wireless G while the router is wireless N, the family PC has an N card, and mine is connected with an ethernet cable and my dad has a laptop so it's wireless)

I used the same card on my PC before I switched to a wire. And it worked fine.

It will eventually be connected by wire, but the router is just too far away and my Mum and Dad say there are more than enough cables everywhere atm.

Quotewhy not invest in a wireless-N card for that PC?
That would take about 4 weeks :D 1 week to convince my Dad we need one, another week for him to get on the internet to buy one, another week for it to be delivered and another week because the delivery never seem to arrive on time. :P (Besides they cost quite a bit)

I had a hard drive on my PC that was shared that had DVDs on them, but if my dad wanted to watch one on his laptop he'd have to type my password in. So I turned of password protected sharing in the N + S center. And now it just says access denied. Is this because it's a Hard drive as I have another folder that's in my Documents that works fine?

EDIT: I set up the network in my house and generally manged to get everything cooperating with each other (although it's very rare when everything works 110% well, 'specially with Vista)


Title: Re: Connecting to a network for the first time
Post by: Shadow Assassin on June 15, 2008, 07:46:57 AM
QuoteI had a hard drive on my PC that was shared that had DVDs on them, but if my dad wanted to watch one on his laptop he'd have to type my password in. So I turned of password protected sharing in the N + S center. And now it just says access denied. Is this because it's a Hard drive as I have another folder that's in my Documents that works fine?

You need to map the network drive onto his laptop if you're trying to share the hard drive. Or, if you don't want to do that: just set the folder that contains the DVDs so they can be shared.
Title: Re: Connecting to a network for the first time
Post by: Jonathan on June 15, 2008, 07:51:33 AM
By mapping it you mean making it appear in done that but a little box appears saying he doesn't have permision.

I went back and checke the folder permissions on my PC and it had full control for everyone.
Title: Re: Connecting to a network for the first time
Post by: HandsOn on June 15, 2008, 07:56:47 AM
Back to the router: The problem you might have is that the reach of the laptop Wireless Adapter is greater than that of the PC card. Ther only way (that I know of) you are going to surmount that if you either move the PC or ee if you can extend the antenna. I believe - but am not sure - that there also SW solutions that increase the range. But usually it means a better WN card.

As for the mapping - check the user you have made up for your dad - full rights may exist on the share, but not necessarily for every user. And, if its still Vista, switch the the User Authentication off - it's nothing but an overzealous Vista thingy.
Title: Re: Connecting to a network for the first time
Post by: Jonathan on June 15, 2008, 09:27:51 AM
It's all getting wired eventually so I guess I can live with a Dongle thing for a while.

But all the folder shares on my main HDD (the on with windows installation on) work fine and I can access them from other PCs. But any on my secondary HDD (with all my DVDs and media on it) don't work, and just comes up with access denied.

This is what pops up:(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa230%2FwarriorST%2Ffrak.jpg&hash=deadb881a9ffe1d4383d0b4c7c5d95812126d391)


*sigh* why can't it just be simple. Click share and your done instead of all these access denied and permissions nonsense.

Thank you all very much for helping.
Title: Re: Connecting to a network for the first time
Post by: HandsOn on June 15, 2008, 09:45:31 AM
Quote from: Warrior on June 15, 2008, 09:27:51 AM
It's all getting wired eventually so I guess I can live with a Dongle thing for a while.

But all the folder shares on my main HDD (the on with windows installation on) work fine and I can access them from other PCs. But any on my secondary HDD (with all my DVDs and media on it) don't work, and just comes up with access denied.

This is what pops up:(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa230%2FwarriorST%2Ffrak.jpg&hash=deadb881a9ffe1d4383d0b4c7c5d95812126d391)


*sigh* why can't it just be simple. Click share and your done instead of all these access denied and permissions nonsense.

Thank you all very much for helping.
Edit: Forgot something; Do this first: In Administrative Tools, open storage and then take a look at the properties of the drive you are trying to share. Pay special attention to the Security and Sharing settings of the drive. Advanced Sharing must be set to on under Windows if you want to share drives. If the security tab really lists all relevant users (or you are all administrators) with all the necessary rights, then proceed to the next, service step below.

That could be a service problem. Open the Administrative Tools on the PC that holds that drive. You'll see a utility called iSCSI Initiator. This nuisance is not new, but has been fully implemented under Vista. It controls what each PC can "see" in terms of hardware, especially auxilliary drives (and a second HD is always auxilliary even if it sits inside the PC). I have never actually used it but you need to have each PC "discover" what it is permitted to use. When you first try to use it you will probalby get the message that the service has not been started. That's normal; start it and it then takes a moment pefore anything happens. Important to you are only the Volumes and Discovery Tabs. In order to function the IP address of the hosting/target PC is required.

Again, I would read the help files or KB documents concerning this first.

Welcome to the wonderful world of Vista..  &sly
Title: Re: Connecting to a network for the first time
Post by: Jonathan on June 15, 2008, 10:09:41 AM
Okkaaayyyy... This is stupid. I try to add "Everyone" to the Security settings of the drive I click Apply and then it says Access Denied (what is it with Access Denied?) Presumably I can't add "Everyone" to the list unless "Everyone" is already added to the list, in which case that is just going round in circles.


??? The whole window with the iSCSI is like Greek.

Vista is so overrated. :)
Title: Re: Connecting to a network for the first time
Post by: HandsOn on June 15, 2008, 11:54:44 AM
Quote from: Warrior on June 15, 2008, 10:09:41 AM
Okkaaayyyy... This is stupid. I try to add "Everyone" to the Security settings of the drive I click Apply and then it says Access Denied (what is it with Access Denied?) Presumably I can't add "Everyone" to the list unless "Everyone" is already added to the list, in which case that is just going round in circles.


??? The whole window with the iSCSI is like Greek.

Vista is so overrated. :)

Your Vista security settings sound like they are straight out of the box Which means "Everyone" can do diddly-sqaud. Vista "understands" everyone as just that, the whole wide world - and has been programmed to be really, really scared. Thus, the only option left to you is to create "real" users, such as your dad; with names, passwords, and admin rights. Vista Home, unfortunately, is like a Lamborghini with a Fiat 500 engine - without Active Directory, decent user management is almost futile. And yes, iSCSI is and ancient thingy, revivide in a new mantle. And another yes: Vista is absolutely overrated and in the process eats up nearly half of your memory.
Title: Re: Connecting to a network for the first time
Post by: Jonathan on June 15, 2008, 12:29:51 PM
In the end I just added "Everyone" to everything I could and it seems to have worked. That's probably the totally wrong thing to do but I'm not going to spend 4 hours trying to translate Greek ;)
Title: Re: Connecting to a network for the first time
Post by: HandsOn on June 15, 2008, 12:33:29 PM
Quote from: Warrior on June 15, 2008, 12:29:51 PM
In the end I just added "Everyone" to everything I could and it seems to have worked. That's probably the totally wrong thing to do but I'm not going to spend 4 hours trying to translate Greek ;)
Whatever works..  &apls
Title: Re: Connecting to a network for the first time
Post by: Shadow Assassin on June 16, 2008, 07:35:32 AM
QuoteVista is absolutely overrated and in the process eats up nearly half of your memory.

Overrated, yes... but I don't have a memory issue at all :P

Sitting idle, Vista only uses 28% of my total memory, out of a possible 2GB. Yay for optimisation. But it's a little SOB when it comes to networks, because for some reason, it thinks it's funny to reset my network settings from time to time [ie. permissions, sharing, etc... whether its a private network or a public one... it's freaking annoying when I'm trying to share files on a network that is not my home network]
Title: Re: Connecting to a network for the first time
Post by: HandsOn on June 16, 2008, 07:43:50 AM
Quote from: Shadow Assassin on June 16, 2008, 07:35:32 AM
Overrated, yes... but I don't have a memory issue at all :P

Sitting idle, Vista only uses 28% of my total memory, out of a possible 2GB. Yay for optimisation. But it's a little SOB when it comes to networks, because for some reason, it thinks it's funny to reset my network settings from time to time [ie. permissions, sharing, etc... whether its a private network or a public one... it's freaking annoying when I'm trying to share files on a network that is not my home network]
So, Master Assassin: what is your secret to getting it down to 28%? I've stopped most useless services and all that "protective custody" that MS thinks is necessary to control its user base, but the lowest I ever got was 38% - and I think that was a fluke. As for networks (other than going online occassionally to read messages such as this one), I've turned everything over to an XP machine in the basement. It handles connections so much better, especially remote access et al).

So - do tell..   ()testing()
Title: Re: Connecting to a network for the first time
Post by: Shadow Assassin on June 16, 2008, 10:42:13 PM
QuoteSo, Master Assassin: what is your secret to getting it down to 28%?

Well, I'll admit that I use Vista Ultimate - presumably the most bloated of them all.

Now, my laptop came with a whole bunch of bloatware, courtesy of Asus, so I dived into msconfig and turned off the relevant services [apart from Asus Security, which is necessary for the fingerprint reader to work]... that reduced it from about 60% down to 40% or so [that's with Firefox running, etc]. The trick is to disable all non-essential services, so you only load them up when you need them.

Then I uninstalled said bloatware, now it runs quite nicely, but takes a while to shut down. :P

Turned off Aero, as well - I'm running a Windows Classic theme.

ReadyBoost is kind of a waste [it does help with some programs, but not the ones I commonly used], so I don't use it.

Now, with Firefox and MSN running, it uses 43%, which really is quite good, considering the nature of Vista.

Incidentally, I use NOD32 as my virus scanner, which only uses about 20MB of memory... it's very lightweight, and even when scanning my computer, it only uses a maximum of 50MB or so. But overall, I'm very happy with how I've got it down to the bare minimum needed to run the OS and associated baggage.

I'll post a picture of my Task Manager in the Performance window later when it is idle [ie. no MSN, no Firefox]
Title: Re: Connecting to a network for the first time
Post by: HandsOn on June 17, 2008, 01:33:12 AM
This has been a most fortunate exchange: now I know I will not be upgrading from Home Premium to Ultimate! Instead I shall soon be swearing at XP on all machines. I've been through the services & msconfig - usually the first places I visit after the Bios, when a new install comes along. The funny thing is, when I tried to use the Windows Classic theme, memory usage jumped, literally, from 38% idle to 59%, and my HD wouldn'd stop spinning..
Title: Re: Connecting to a network for the first time
Post by: Shadow Assassin on June 17, 2008, 04:25:10 AM
QuoteThe funny thing is, when I tried to use the Windows Classic theme, memory usage jumped, literally, from 38% idle to 59%, and my HD wouldn'd stop spinning..

On Vista or XP?

Either way, that is most definitely not normal...


As for Ultimate, it does have a lot of things that can be useful, such as drive encryption, that sort of thing. But from what I have heard, each successive version of Vista, from Basic to Ultimate, becomes more loaded with "features".
Title: Re: Connecting to a network for the first time
Post by: HandsOn on June 17, 2008, 04:33:35 AM
Yeah, they do that. But unfortunately MS is also trying hard to kill off XP, at least in terms of support & automatic updates. Right now the cut-off date is set to April 30, 2009. There's a groundswell of protest going on about it, about 100,000 have already signed some form of petition against MS' move.

Vista simply is too bloated and treats even Admins like errant kids - you should have heard me when I ran it for the first time (and I've been administrating system since 1985)..  :angrymore:
Title: Re: Connecting to a network for the first time
Post by: Shadow Assassin on June 17, 2008, 05:15:43 AM
If you don't like bloatedness... have you thought about using Windows Server 2008 as a workstation? It's very similar to Vista, but runs approximately 15% faster on the same hardware, even with Aero.

It's because Microsoft didn't include all that crap with Server 2008 that they included with Vista... and people actually love it. :P
Title: Re: Connecting to a network for the first time
Post by: HandsOn on June 17, 2008, 05:23:17 AM
Quote from: Shadow Assassin on June 17, 2008, 05:15:43 AM
If you don't like bloatedness... have you thought about using Windows Server 2008 as a workstation? It's very similar to Vista, but runs approximately 15% faster on the same hardware, even with Aero.

It's because Microsoft didn't include all that crap with Server 2008 that they included with Vista... and people actually love it. :P
Sounds like an idea. Will have to find some time to look into it - soon, before I explode before this mislabelled "Home Premium". I think they called it home in view of the US Housing Market crash..  %bur2$