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choco's attempts at BATing bridges

Started by choco, June 03, 2008, 09:18:33 AM

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threestooges

From the looks of things, there shouldn't be any problem doing it the way you're doing ti now. just alter the separation of the pillars in the reader and you'll be set for a 3 piece bridge. If you try the way cogeo mentioned, I would like it if you posted the steps you took. It would make a great tutorial for those interested in getting into bridge making. No pressure to do that though, only if you feel like it. Can't wait to see it finished.
-Matt

wes.janson

Quote from: choco on August 22, 2008, 08:29:39 PM
edit: back for more.....saw a request in another thread, and thought i'd give it a shot.  need to learn how to build a cable bridge anyway..


Would that be the elevated rail or 'SkyTrain' bridge that crosses the Fraser River in New Westminster BC?

If so.. I would LOVE to see this bridge in game.


Henrik Sedin: 82gp 29g 83a 112p - 2009/2010 Art Ross/Hart Trophy winner!

cogeo

#42
choco and TS: You can find some examples of how the properties I mentioned in my previous post are used, in the SC4 dats. In the reader open simcity_1.dat, click the navigator button, and open the "Street, road, highway, rail" category, and then the "Bridge" subcategory. There are several cable-stayed bridges there.

Hope this helps.

choco

#43
so i did some learnin this evening.....

i started playing with different LODs for a bunch of bridges, and noticed their effect on the drawpaths cheat...

otherwise, i didn't think it looked too bad considering the LOD was still pretty sloppy.  at closer glance, i caught the tip of the arrow under the canopy here...

i didn't really like this effect, so i started looking into the T21's and exemplar properties for the cables. 
i found these in the maxis avenue bridge...


Only six properties needed in the bridge exemplar.  The CableStayed[Front,Rear,Span]Anchors properties adjust the 'bounding box' of the cables.....im not so good with words so i made a quick picture.

if i got it right:

- the yellow dots are the 2 coordinates in CableStayedFrontAnchors
- white dots are CableStayedRearAnchors
- blue dots are CableStayedSpanAncors (which just get mirrored....)

i need to do some lookin to see if there are any alternative wire models, or if its possible to add props for this use.  the other 3 properties are basically for changing the look of the wires, so no doubt another texture or model could be used.   

i think this would look much better if i used an RUL to add a couple pieces for an approach span.  unfortunately, i wasn't able to get the road bridge from before workin.....i tried to amend the RUL file in the bridges controller unsuccessfully thus far, so i still have some work to do. 

edit: a major limitation to the T21s is that we may only be able to use one set of cables.  this severely limits the kind of bridges that could be made.  hopefully, someone knows a way around this.

and im sure it'll get textures eventually.... :-\

   


JoeST

oh now this topic is just AWESOME!!!!!!!!!! I am surprised at myself for not looking in on it before. your bridges are adding alot to this game :)

Joe
Copperminds and Cuddleswarms

cogeo

#45
I noticed a small difference, the avenue bridge has the third dimension of the span anchors set to 8m, not 0. Let me guess, does this move the wires to the side of the road? Maybe by setting the span anchors to a broader range with both positive and negative values, eg -100 to +100m, and/or by reversing the meaning of front/rear anchors and span anchors it could become possible having wires at the sides of the bridge, instead of the middle?

As for the texture, you don't need to use the ingame one, you can make your own. Before doing so you may try a special texture, like the one below, not because it would look good of course, but in order to check how the texture is applied on the wires - this would be a hint how to make your custom texture.


choco

#46
yup, the third dimension is for side to side placement....im still doing some looking in the reader, but it looks like all the stay cable bridges are using a single set of wires.  there is no mirroring effect on the front and rear anchors....least that i can find.  i can get them to line up nicely one  side or the other...but not both.  kinda a bummer for this particular bridge, but this is valuable information to me anyway.  thanks for the nudge... :thumbsup:


so now im thinking about making a prop or 2 for some better cables.  perhaps do a couple standard designs so other cables bridges can be made down the pipe....

im assuming props are made in the BAT?  anything special in terms of modeling to keep in mind?

   

wes.janson

That bridge is looking good and quite like the original as all it takes is a quarter turn of my head to see the real one out my window.

Though I have never seen the Fraser River looks so blue  ;D


Henrik Sedin: 82gp 29g 83a 112p - 2009/2010 Art Ross/Hart Trophy winner!

nerdly_dood

Ooooh small world, huh?  ;D  I haven't seen much of anything on any of the exchanges that I've seen in RL, except the Palacio Real in Madrid - no bridges (there aren't any real great ones around here, except maybe Memorial Bridge over the Roanoke River in Roanoke, VA) and no BATs (I could find a way to get to downtown to get some actual photos if someone wants to BAT something in Roanoke) and although there's a map of Roanoke available to import into SC, I don't know how to import them into the game (even though i followed the tutorial down to the color of the text) so it's good that at least someone lives right nex to a bridge that someone's BATting. :thumbsup:
My days here are numbered. It's been great and I've had a lot of fun, but I've moved on to bigger and better things.
—   EGO  VOBIS  VADELICO   —
Glory be unto the modder and unto the fun and unto the city game!

wes.janson

Well, I live on a river delta so that explains the muddy water and the abdunance of bridges. That elevated rail bridge (I believe its called the Skybridge, as our elevated rail system is called the 'SkyTrain') is only about 17-18 years old. I was actually lucky enough (Since I live close to where my folks live) to watch it being constructed. I am in awe of the men who can comprehend what it takes to build such a thing. Luckily enough they are planning on building a new road bridge beside it in the near future and I will get to watch that one being built as well.


Henrik Sedin: 82gp 29g 83a 112p - 2009/2010 Art Ross/Hart Trophy winner!

choco

Quote from: wes.janson on September 17, 2008, 06:43:05 PM
That bridge is looking good and quite like the original as all it takes is a quarter turn of my head to see the real one out my window.
:thumbsup:  hope i can do it justice, its a beautiful bridge.....nice backyard monument ya got there.  wouldnt happen to have any good pics would ya?  may help with some texturing actually..... ;D


@cogeo: i took some more of your suggestions about those alternate methods, and i hope i can ask a couple questions.  its a bit much, but the more i learn the more questions i have.  ::) 

based on the screeny above, can you lend a bit about making some props with T21s.  i went thru the threads here, and get twisted on some concepts:

- if i modeled the cables in BAT, would they need to be rendered in true 3D?
- a test render on the cables with a simple rectangular LOD weighed in at 264kb....thought that was kinda heavy.
- if nothing else, i thought about changing some pathing to create more room for the cables between the rails. 

another bridge i had problems with was a monorail bridge.  the suggestion to import a flat model thru the reader sounded like a good solution i was having matching the textures of the maxis monorail.  theres 3 different textures that make up the monorail, and its really hard to match well (its a 3D model, and im not sure how to measure dimensions).  i found the sc4 file for the repeat peice of the monorail bridge, and exported that file.  however, it only gave me one direction in one zoom.  that didn't work anyway, but this'll show the what i mean.

the track is almost shaped like greek omega.  you can really see it on the top track.  in the reader, the sc4 file had 6 groups....so i wasn't sure if i should 'set' one texture, or 'set' them all.  can i really even use this method since these are not flat models?  this procedure is a bit confusing.....

one other thing i noticed in misc. transit bridges....the maxis box in the starter piece.  its present in all my light rail bridges, and havent found a property to remove it.   

most other issues have been worked out.  im hoping ill be done with this round soon, if i can over come these few issues.  your help is always appreciated!   :thumbsup:

cogeo

#51
Hi,

Here are my replies to your questions.

Quote from: choco on September 19, 2008, 08:11:14 PM
- if i modeled the cables in BAT, would they need to be rendered in true 3D?
What do you mean by "true 3D"? BAT renders are not indeed true 3D, the actual 3D object displayed ingame is the LODshell. In addition it makes renders specific to zoom and rotation views. These are "partial" objects, eg for a simple LODshell (box), the "object" for each view has only 3 faces, the upper, the front and the right one, ie those that are visible for the specific zoom/rotation! The models that are really 3D are those that have full geometry, ie all faces visible. Such models are used in SC4 networks, like the monorail model you mentioned. This has only one S3D file, which is displayed for all zooms/rotations, as it has both "front" and "back" faces. If you check the vertices' coordinates you will see what I mean.
Making such a model for the cables is possible, however not in BAT (it exports 20 S3D files), you need another modelling program named "MilkShape". I know only one member using it.

Quote from: choco on September 19, 2008, 08:11:14 PM
- a test render on the cables with a simple rectangular LOD weighed in at 264kb....thought that was kinda heavy.
If you want to make these in BAT, you should better make custom-shaped LODs. I would suggest that you include the wires of one side only, as the prop can be instantiated twice in the T21 exemplar (one will have to be rotated by 180°). This way LODs will be really thin, and the automata running between them will be displayed properly; otherwise (if you make a model containing both the right-side and left-side cables, using a single LOD), the cables at the back will obscure the automata, because they will be projected on the front faces! If you send me the BAT I can make these LODs for you.

Quote from: choco on September 19, 2008, 08:11:14 PM
- if nothing else, i thought about changing some pathing to create more room for the cables between the rails. 
I don't get what you mean here, do you mean making a bridge with just one row of wires (in the middle)? Well, this is feasible, but I think its not what you intended for.

As for monorail, the model used in the repeat piece of the Maxis monorail bridge, is actually a copy of the "support" model, with the support structures somehow "disabled" (groups 0,1 and 5 are not displayed). I'm not sure about the quality of this piece of work, and possibly merging this "modded" model might cause problems.
I don't know why this is only visible for one Z/R, did you append the model to all 20 S3D models? Another point, this must be rotated for the other directions, and this is not easy work (X and Y values for all vertices must be interchanged/flipped), practically undoable for this model.
But this can be used as a prop. I have attached a prop file displaying the monorail repeat piece model. You can use it in lots, and as you can see, it's visible for all zooms/rotations. T21 exemplars are just network "lots", so you can use this prop there - use the reader to position (center) the prop accurately. You will need to add T21 exemplars to all (3?) pieces of the bridge. If you still have problems we can try changing the blending parameters, as these may be hidden by your bridge's LODs.

As for the GLR bridge problem, this looks kinda noramal, as your bridge is modded as "elevated rail", so the default texture/model is displayed. Have you tried connecting this to draggable GLR?

Regards

choco

Quote from: cogeo on September 20, 2008, 09:49:15 AM
What do you mean by "true 3D"?
i read in the "Making Model for Transit Networks" thread that network lots needed to be rendered in 3D....i simply thought that since a T21 is a network "lot", then maybe it would have to be done in 3D.  there is an alternate BuildingMill.ms script that will allow gmax to render in 3D (Milkshape is OK, Blender is GNU program).  moot point at this time though, since i shouldn't need to export in that manner.

QuoteI would suggest that you include the wires of one side only, as the prop can be instantiated twice in the T21 exemplar (one will have to be rotated by 180°).
i think i understand this well.  although, is it possible to render 1/4 of the model, then use T21's to mirror it twice? i.e., render the front left, mirror to the front right, then mirror those to the rear of the pylon.  just kinda thinkin aloud. :-\

QuoteI don't get what you mean here, do you mean making a bridge with just one row of wires (in the middle)? Well, this is feasible, but I think its not what you intended for.
yup, pretty much.  i will probably do a couple cable stayed bridges for the rail lines, but the current rail taxtures have the tracks too close together for the cables to fit between them IMO.....so i made some alternate transite textures and created path files for them.  this way, i can use a single pylon between the tracks and it'll look better.
 
Quotebut I think its not what you intended for.
not for this bridge anyway....there will be others... ;D

QuoteI have attached a prop file displaying the monorail repeat piece model.
you are simply fantastic!  that was the solution i was looking for...and i learned something else in the process.  there is one slight caveat to the prop though.  the shading is off is a couple rotations and views, and one piece just doesn't show up. 

here is the missing piece....also note the drawpaths cheat and the nice matching of the monorail prop.

the small red square in the upper left corner is the opposite view of the above picture with the missing mono prop.  the top is east, and the red square is west.  is this what you meant by "blending parameters"?

QuoteHave you tried connecting this to draggable GLR?
absolutely.....im just a bit too lazy sometimes.   ::)  im not too worried about this 'issue'....either i can change the exemplar type back to 'road' or just use the maxis block as the base of the model.  no big deal.....although the former would look much better, the models are considerably larger and wont help already long loading times.


Sorry for so many questions, but I really appreciate all your time and consideration getting me thru some of these challenges.  perhaps this thread will answer some questions others as well, cause there's a ton of good info here.  gettin close to complete on a couple of these, some maybe some new bridges in the near future.


Thanks a million cogeo!!! :thumbsup:

cogeo

There's a little confusion here, network lots (T21s) aren't "rendered", only models are rendered! T21s are just like the normal lots (like those you edit with the LE), the basic difference is that they are attached to networks.

It's not possible to mirror models, only textures can be mirrored; props can only be rotated. So you have to model half of the wires, not the 1/4th.

I'm not sure about the drawing/shadowing problems, it may be the LODs and blending parameters, the IsGroundModel property and many others. Can you send me the bridge to take a look?

FInally, connecting to draggable GLR fixes the problem or not? Did you check other GLR bridges?

choco

got a quick first round of textures on the skybridge....its far from done though...


wes.janson

WOW! You got the way they used concrete blocks to build (A look uniform to the whole system, as they pre-build it in segments and then lift the segments into place), though I must say that your textures look a bit pinkish (for lack of a better term). As soon as I can find the USB cord for my camera I will post some pics I took the other day.

I might be out by the new 'extradosed' skybridge they are building for rapid transit to the airport. The textures on those would be very similar to the ones used on the existing skybridge.


Henrik Sedin: 82gp 29g 83a 112p - 2009/2010 Art Ross/Hart Trophy winner!

choco

hmmmm.....does look a bit pinkish doesn't it?  i wanted to see if i could get the tiling right, so it was just a quick crop of an existing texture......i dont intend to make a pink bridge...  :D

the hard pics to find have been the approach span and the approach pillars.....only have seen ones from far away.  pics would be cool though... :thumbsup:



vester

On the top of the foundation put a thin lid to get rid of that texture problem.

cogeo

Or, if the UWV map is cylindrical, check the "Cap" checkbox. You can also assign a different material to the top faces, if you wish, by using an Edit Mesh modifier.

choco

#59
^^^ &idea

was wondering how that was done....

:thumbsup:




edit to remove pic.