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3RR-ST - Page 45

Started by dedgren, November 27, 2008, 11:18:36 AM

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dedgren

This is the SC4D archive of Page 45 of Three Rivers Region at Simtropolis.  Comments are locked for now.































































































Page 45
#1320 11/17/2006 06:08 AM

jacqulina
hi my friend you have some awesome skills as allways beautifull work
#1321 11/17/2006 11:51 AM

dedgren
As I have mentioned, I intend to do 3RR162's deciduous trees in seasonal trees to the extent possible. While I'm a ways from starting, here's some pics, without much explanation, of an approach I've been looking at...



Summer.



Fall.



Closer in.

Summer.



Early fall.



Late fall.



Winter.



Busy day today. Back over the weekend.

Thanks so much for all the great comments!

Later.
#1322 11/17/2006 12:30 PM

threestooges
The trees are alright, the seasonal change is nice, but without either further development, or more intergration of the trees (as the transition seems a bit stark), something about it just doesn't seem right. There are seasonal trees away from the river and yet, right along the banks, are deciduous trees that don't shed a leaf. Also, perhaps the barren trees would look more appropriate with snow or something a little less green (for the middle of winter). Perhaps a more natural look could be obtained by blending the two types of trees at their current transition point and having something green among the winter twigs and have a few twigs in the pines. Whatever comes of it though, I'm sure will be good.
#1323 11/17/2006 01:23 PM

James4245
How large can your plugins folder be? Like before it starts slowing the game movement down.
#1324 11/17/2006 02:45 PM

jacqulina
wow thats very pretty my friend where did you get those flowers from,awesome work and pics
#1325 11/17/2006 03:15 PM

capitol1
I like te tiny creeks you make mine are always way to large. I never give to much detail to terraforming.
#1326 11/17/2006 09:32 PM

antipat
OK, slowly but surely, I am working my way into reading this entire CJ. ALL THE WASTED YE...... MONTHS! Anyway, I can't wait til this map become avaible (I think you said it will be)
#1327 11/18/2006 12:41 AM

dedgren
Okay, I read the couple of comments on the trees...

...hey, matt- you're keepin' me busy here!

...here's something else to chew on.

Here's the several most apparently popular or most current rock mods. I won't identify them except by number. Which one do you think I should choose for 3RR162?

You can let me know through comments or PMs, or vote in this poll [ linkie ]. If you think you know about a rock mod I'm not showing here, make sure you let me know that. Or, if you are a budding rock mod creator, send me yours...maybe...

...I'll make you famous [ linkie ]...

Here they are.

#1



#2



#3



#4



#5



#6

#7

#8




I'd like to hear from you on this. Once again,
here's the poll [ linkie ].

Later.
#1328 11/18/2006 01:03 AM

Menotyou
I'll say #2, it is very nice looking!
#1329 11/18/2006 01:33 AM

Elecltra
Choices, choices, choices.....argh! Ok, just kidding.

First I think I will address the first update you posted today, well um, yesterday by my clock...lol. I love the idea of having seasons, especially after living in a few regions of the world that only have two (hot or hotter) (wet or dry) (cold or colder)....or like Virginia (can't make up its mind, ah the coastal life). Anyway on to my point, I noticed that when you were placing trees that you had them placed away from the water and still as far as I could see there were seasonal trees near the water with no changes, please correct me if I am wrong, I am blind as a bat without my glasses(where did I put those darn things). I guess what I am trying to say is that even these trees change their leaves and that even with all the evergreen types(I am no tree expert here...lol) there are always seasonal trees butting up against the water ways. So, I think a mix in this area is needed for more realistic look during season changes. You have to excuse me if I have babbled on and not made sense, I can try to explain better if needed.

Now on to this rock choice, agh. I don't know how many mods you are using to demonstrate the different textures, I am guessing at least three. Now realizing that I am looking at close ups and it would look different from afar, there are 3 of them I would have chosen to use depending on the rocks of the region I was depicking(sp). That would have been 2, 4, or 6. They have the most realist look to them, the others look like just a texture to me(no offense to the mod makers here, lots of hard work goes into them I am sure). I think I would use #6 for your region, considering I have seen what the formations in and around the Alaska area look like and use #2 or #4 for any of the regions in the lower 48.

Just an opinion and we all know what those are like. Until next time.

E
#1330 11/18/2006 03:07 AM

Rayden
Number 2 or 4, definately.
#1331 11/18/2006 03:29 AM

jacqulina
I say 2
#1332 11/18/2006 04:40 AM

meldolion
Hi David!
your terraforming is awesome!!! I 've chosen n°2 rock mod, but 4 or 6 are good anyway....

I've a question tough: how did you get so much snow? I've tried Columbus snowcapped lower mod but didn't got your results.... can you give me some advice?

thanks
#1333 11/18/2006 04:44 AM

chocolatemax285
Before I forget, of the mountain terrains, #2 is effective, #6 is realistic and doesn't repeat, but I think #4 definitely looks the best. Go with that one I say!
Great to see you back to terraforming and the aesthetics of trees and jazz. You're so good at it!
Anyway, I like the interactive style of this journal, especially the changing polls.
Keep up the great work mate!
Cheers, choco.
#1334 11/18/2006 07:55 AM

Schulmanator
Hey, David! First, my vote for rock mod: #6. It's just easier on the eyes I think. Some of the others stand out too much and can be distracting from your other work. The trees look great, but I would think the evergreens would be in higher elevations than the deciduous. You have great details which are very nice. I need to design a river soon. I hope mine turns out as nicely as what you have here!
#1335 11/18/2006 07:59 AM

tchaos713
I'm kinda partial to 6 myself...

As to the trees, is it possible to mix in some seasonal trees closer to the riverbank? The transition is very stark... my $0.02 anyway.

Take care,
Daniel
#1336 11/18/2006 08:35 AM

hondo42769
David,
First of all the trees. I understand that you are experimenting here to try and develop a "look" for 3RR. Many pages ago, you had determined that there would be essentially one type of tree that would line your ploppable water streams/rivers in order to "trick the eye" so that when the viewer sees those trees they would also see water. I don't know if the effect of this technique would be compromised if you mixed the seasonal trees in with the trees that border the water, but maybe you could place the seasonals closer to the water in some places and further away in others so that it has a more random appearance. Regardless, I like the look of seasonal trees and definitely think you should use them. I'm sure you will come up with something that will look amazing.

As for the rock mod, I like #'s 2, 4, and 6. But, I would probably go with #6. I think it is the one that would "stand out" the least in areas with a lot of rock exposed. #'s 2 and 4 look good, but my hunch is that in the more mountainous areas they would probably draw the focus of the viewer away from the overall view.
#1337 11/18/2006 11:05 AM

dedgren


Well, I've learned my lesson- I'll never again post anything on the spur of the moment that I've just spent a few minutes preparing then run out the door to work...

...unless I do- I'm just that way.

Actually, that sort of raises a good point. I don't know if you are going to believe this, but generally when I sit down to write/create a 3RR post, I have no earthly idea what I will be doing...

...unless I do- all this is actually planned months in advance.

No, really- it's not. Usually I just roll down whatever path first comes to mind unless I'm in the middle of an ongoing update, then it actually is a little different.

So, I guess the point is, for those of you who have noted a distinct absence of any particular organizing principle in 3RR, it's because this whole thing is about as ad hoc as it gets. I hope that never gets in the way of anyone's enjoyment of what's going on here.

Back to this particular post.

You may remember that in this post [ linkie ] back up this page I started what I anticipate will be an extended discussion of the approach we will take to trees and forests in 3RR. What I'd planned was to share just a few minutes of quick-and-dirty experimentation I had done using the God Mode Columbus trees along a 3RR stream (Wolf River in Quad 191) and some different seasonal trees from the STEX. As I plan to do a fairly detailed discussion of what's available out there on the seasonal trees in the near future, I didn't go into any detail.

All I basically did was run the God Mode tree brush up-and-down the stream to plant Columbus mod trees on each bank and a bit further inland. Then I plopped a bunch of Andreas Roth's great SFBT "cycledogg" seasonal aspen and a few of his oak 1x1 lots, along with several of jeronij's 1x1 acer (maple) seasonal lots to look at the effect. Then I took some pics and posted them.

Matt (threestooges) was the first to comment with any specificity. He said, on 11/17
QuoteThe trees are alright, the seasonal change is nice, but without either further development, or more intergration of the trees (as the transition seems a bit stark), something about it just doesn't seem right. There are seasonal trees away from the river and yet, right along the banks, are deciduous trees that don't shed a leaf. Also, perhaps the barren trees would look more appropriate with snow or something a little less green (for the middle of winter). Perhaps a more natural look could be obtained by blending the two types of trees at their current transition point and having something green among the winter twigs and have a few twigs in the pines. Whatever comes of it though, I'm sure will be good.

I'll deal with each of his important points one at a time.

without either further development, or more intergration of the trees (as the transition seems a bit stark), something about it just doesn't seem right: A couple of points here. There certainly will be further development, both along the line of further integration (I just plopped sort of aimlessly in the same place) and superdetailing. In this latter regard I note that I will at a minimum be adding things (rocks, plants, etc) to areas where those things are currently not, and in particular to lake and stream shores. Remember this?



Now, that was a ploppable water stream from 3RR last summer [ linkie ], but it gives you an idea of the look I will try to create. I may even go so far as to create some proprietary custom "tree" lots out of various components...we'll see. The bottom line is that, whatever I do, I won't proceed until I know it will look right across the board.

There are seasonal trees away from the river and yet, right along the banks, are deciduous trees that don't shed a leaf: Well, that result (the deciduous trees along the stream bank) came as a surprise to me. I thought that I was going to have a conifer (pine, fir, you know- needle trees) only forest from using the Columbus Terrain God Mode brush advertised as such...

...what the heck is he talking about?

...but I didn't get what I expected. Here's what I mean.

Here's a pic of the startup window from the Columbus Terrain Mod installer.



The next window you get after clicking "Next" is one where you can choose what trees will be placed when in God Mode. I chose the "Selection of conifers" brush.



Well, I thought "conifers" meant, well...conifers. Obviously the file installed by the selection, shown here highlighted in blue



...heh- "Generic_Andreas" Andreas Roth, you are a STEX God!

So, in response to your observation, Matt, which I totally agree with, I did the following. I went back and reinstalled Columbus, using the "Subalpine fir" menu choice.



This installs this file, also highlighted in blue.



Then I went back to Quad 191 and bulldozed a clear swath, then "painted" subalpine firs along the stream with the Columbus Terrain tree brush. I left a small swath of clear area at each end of the new trees.



No deciduous trees that I can see. Looks entirely like subalpine fir. Notice that I left some of the seasonal aspens in the newly treed area.

Here's a closer in pic...



...and another.



Yup, all subalpine fir. I'm not really liking the distance from the shoreline, either, but I can paint those in with the Mayor Mode subalipne fir brush. I can also detail in other conifers doing that as well.

Also, perhaps the barren trees would look more appropriate with snow or something a little less green (for the middle of winter). Perhaps a more natural look could be obtained by blending the two types of trees at their current transition point and having something green among the winter twigs and have a few twigs in the pines.: A couple of thoughts here.

The first is that, after fiddling around with trying to mask the "snow cheat jaggies" [ linkie ] with trees, and especially conifers, I remain unsatisfied with the results. I won't detail them here but rather will reserve that inquiry for a future post. My thoughts right now are to explore the possibility of lowering the snow line through the use of the ilive reader. Since all of 3RR's pics in the CJ are static, I would simply load a mod I would create during the creation of any winter scenes. Now, that's easy to say. Even if it works to lower the snow line, there is no guarantee that it would otherwise look OK. Again, a subject for another day.

Here's some pics of a once again quick-and-dirty attempt to do this.

Summer.

#1


and

#2


Fall.

#3


and

#4


Obviously, placing transition trees will be a technique that will take some work to develop.

I noticed something else from these pics. When I took the Columbus beach and cliff .dat file (CP_ColumbusBeachCliff.dat) out of the mod's folder, the stream banks lightened up considerably from previous pics. Here's one for comparisom

#5


I'll definitely be checking this out in the reader too. Even the Columbus shorelines are a bit too light for my taste.

As far as the green forest floor and winter go, Matt. I think that may be, on the scale we're talking about, an intractable issue. But, who knows? It would be great if things were more brown and dead looking in the "game" winter- maybe one of our resident modding Feynmans [ linkie ] out there would have some insight.

Also on the 17th, Elektra wrote, in pertinent part
I noticed that when you were placing trees that you had them placed away from the water and still as far as I could see there were seasonal trees near the water with no changes...even these trees change their leaves and that even with all the evergreen types there are always seasonal trees butting up against the water ways. So, I think a mix in this area is needed for more realistic look during season changes.


Welcome to the wild, wonderful, wacky world of 3RR commenting, Elektra. You are, as I noted to Matt above, absolutely correct. I will certainly be seeking to use such a mix.

Earlier today Bruce (Schulmanator - Schulmania) wrote
The trees look great, but I would think the evergreens would be in higher elevations than the deciduous.


First off, I intend that basically all trees above some particular elevation- I haven't figured out how high yet- will be some kind of conifer. I do intend, also, to experiment with more-or-less all deciduous tree shorelines, and you'll see the results in a post in the near future.

Also today Daniel (tchaos713 - Ballet Fan Club) wrote
is it possible to mix in some seasonal trees closer to the riverbank? The transition is very stark


Got you covered there, my good friend.

A bit later, James (hondo42769) asked
maybe you could place the seasonals closer to the water in some places and further away in others so that it has a more random appearance


Absolutely. I'll try to incorporate as much randomization in tree placement everywhere in 3RR as I possibly can, as I see this as being a hallmark of realistic detailing.

Later, folks. Thanks for bearing with me through this extended post and for your ongoing feedback, which is very important to the future of this CJ.
...

Please, by the way, if you've not already given me your feedback as to my rock mod post, also back up this page [ linkie ], please check it out. I want to get the rock mod right early on, so that other natural effects are done with that element in place.
#1338 11/18/2006 11:08 AM

Tommy_vercetti3
I'll reserve this post for a better continuation of my comment later.
#1339 11/18/2006 11:17 AM

MasterPlanMan
That last pic looks beautiful! My opinion of the seasonal trees is that they make things look too a bit too redundent and unrealistic. I like to go with a combo of Cycledog's stuff and some maxis trees sprinkled in. The trees along the river banks look great though. Keep up the good work! I look forward to seeing how things turn out.
#1340 11/18/2006 05:00 PM

crazychickensc12
although i created 4 i would go with 6, 6 is a pro rock mod awesome texture with no tiling effect, 4 would look better for smaller rock faces IMO and if you have a texture you would like to see modded go ahead and PM me and ill cook it up for yah

*voted #6*
#1341 11/18/2006 05:18 PM

flame1396
well David we conversed in PM a while ago... i like mod 6... and where did those great seasonal trees come from??? I WANT THEM!
#1342 11/18/2006 06:48 PM

Gaston
David,
 This is great stuff. As always I am intrigued by this. The trees and the use of them are fascinating. It just so happens that this is an effect that I have been working on for some time now.  I can't seem to hit on the right combination either.  I think I need to research trees a bit more.  LOL I have a BS in Wildlife Management, which included a number of classes in forestry and botany. And still I can't see the trees for the forest. <Hmm a bit appropos, eh what? Hello. I know you are out there I hear you typing.  Is this mic. on?  (Yes I know it is supposed to be "See the forest for the trees". Sheesh, try and make a joke around here.)  
 As far as the rock mod goes, I'm not really in love with any of them.  I like #2 and maybe #4.  Like I said I am not in love with any of them.  I just don't wanna ever see something like jelly beans [linkie] or fire and brimstone [linkie] . Anyway I suppose it depends on the look you wanna end up with.  To bad no-one has creates a rock mod that varies the terrain by altitude or water proximity. Hmmm, there is something to think about.


Later Gotta work early in the morning.  I hate retail. LOL

---Gaston
#1343 11/19/2006 02:02 AM

football_fever
I've been intimidated by the size of your CJ, so I haven't started, but I figured I'd start now. I love your work...you're one of the hardest working people on ST. I'd choose rock mod 2. You make me want to make some streams with trees for my own cities. Keep it up!
#1344 11/19/2006 02:41 AM

jacqulina
hi my friend thats an awesome stream and i love the trees cant wait to see more
#1345 11/19/2006 02:41 AM

hondo42769
A thought occurred to me regarding the rock mod debate here in 3RR, so I wander back here and am hit with the great seasonal tree controversy of '06. My, my you have a demanding fan base, don't you. Well, your response should satisfy the weary mind that you will do everything in your power to make sure the seasonal trees are not going to be placed without serious consideration given. Anyway, back to the rock mod debate. I was wondering if you have considered using cycledoggs Missouri Breaks Rock Textures. It is similar to the Columbus Terrain Mod rock textures, but it adds just a hint of purple, randomly, to the rock. The purple is subtle and adds a bit of variety to the appearance of your rock faces. Just a thought.
#1346 11/19/2006 02:47 AM

bat
I would take No. 4 of the rock mods! Great pictures! Great using of trees! Fantastic work!

bat
#1347 11/19/2006 03:39 AM

patriots_1228
hey skippy- i mean david. nice update i like the columbus terrain on the shores better but its your choice.
#1348 11/19/2006 03:51 AM

emilin
I voted for mod no.6. Actually no.2 and no.4 look fine too. But in my opinion you should definatly stay away from the mods with fishnet patterns.
#1349 11/19/2006 07:20 AM

pickled_pig
I as well like mod #6; it looks very natural. A few of the mods you show us seem to look as if they were a grid. Not too realistic...

I've not been here in a while, and it looks like I've missed some interesting discussion on scale and terraforming. I'll have to stay here for the discussion on trees; all I'm familiar with are the PEG seasonal trees and the Cycledogg trees.

Also I am looking forward to finally see your city building. Seeing that you comment a lot on "homebrew interchanges" (i.e. making one's own interchanges with the one-way streets) in my CJ, I am especially awaiting to see if you use them, and how you use them.

D. Edgren

Please call me David...

Three Rivers Region- A collaborative development of the SC4 community
The 3RR Quick Finder [linkie]


I aten't dead.  —  R.I.P. Granny Weatherwax

Skype: davidredgren