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Started by dedgren, January 13, 2009, 10:34:49 PM

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This is the SC4D archive of Page 41 of Three Rivers Region at Simtropolis.  Comments are locked for now.

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[row] [data colspan=2]#1200  11/02/2006 08:26 AM[/data] [/row]
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[/data][data] I'm still cogitatin' about all this...

In the meantime, here's some pics of the area in question straight from SC4, as opposed to processed through Region Census.

The area.


Quads 14-16 and 30-32 have been terraformed.  Matt (threestooges) noted

QuoteThere is one point I noticed (although it is likely you've already taken care of it) in the pic of Rayden Mountain, the river breaks up at the narrowest point.

You can see that clearly here just above the word "Region" on the toolbar.  It's an artifact from importing the quad from SC4Terraformer, and was likely caused by an error in the bitmap I used to set the region up initially.  It'll be gone when I terraform the quad.

Here's some close-ups of quads 15 and 16, from left to right (west to east) along the northern edge of the region.





Here's a pic from quad 32 up from the north bank of the river.


Finally, here's the western part of quad 31.


I dunno...jury's still out as far as I'm concerned.  Anyone have any new thoughts on seeing these?

Later. [/size][/data][/row]

[row] [data colspan=2]#1201  11/02/2006 11:15 AM[/data] [/row]
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[/data][data]After seeing the region shots, I kind of agree with Shadow_Assassin, the mountains look too "spiky". In the closeups, however, they didn't look as malformed. Not that there aren't spiky montains, maybe there are too many of them together.

Because of the compression of scale in SC I have always thought that many of the mountains were unrealistic. In your case, with this this huge region, you don't have to compress the scale to go from river bottom to mountain top. I also think the other problem is that  we only have sea level water. As I remember in SC2000 God Mode you could plop water in a mountain area and it would follow the contour to the sea to make a river.

I don't mean to be too critical. I think this huge region is great and I can hardly wait to see where this whole thing goes. I'm looking forward to more

[row] [data colspan=2]#1202  11/02/2006 08:07 PM[/data] [/row]
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Bishop Hawke
[/data][data] Well David  I guess I better come in from the shadows and atleast say hi. I been reading your CJ for the last 2 weeks at work and have a lot about (ahem  cough cough) What I was doing wrong. Thanks for this great Cj. I learned how to orginize my plugin file and How to make those darn tunnels.. Looking forward to seeing more of your work. [/data][/row]

[row] [data colspan=2]#1203  11/02/2006 11:04 PM[/data] [/row]
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[/data][data]They look fair enough (a bit hilly considering the scale that is used) but not too spikey I don't think. One thing for sure, however, is that they will look much better/natural with a bit of flora/fauna/pw. I would personally leave them as they are, a good mountain pass is fun to work with, and the close proximity of the hills will offer some good terrain variations. Ultimately though, it is up to you. So far, so good [/data][/row]

[row] [data colspan=2]#1204  11/03/2006 01:43 AM[/data] [/row]
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[/data][data] I think it looks really nice...

:) WEN

[row] [data colspan=2]#1205  X11/03/2006 03:48 AM[/data] [/row]
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[/data][data] I totally agree withh Matt, (threestooges), he took the words out of my mouth!
Considering the scale of your map, I don't find them (the mountains) too spikey,
We have to consider that when looking at your in game region pic, it's almost like looking at a satellite picture, but we have to take into account that the distance in RL between those mountains is probably calculated in miles! So, no, I don't find it spikey!
Looking at pics , 3 and 4 we can see nice valleys (can't wait to see some flora in those),
Pic 6 with the erosion marks is simply breathtaking!
The jurys still out you say? (an appropriate expresion for you BTW) ;)
Well If I was in the jury, I'd say "That Map is innocent, please keep it!"
Hehehe... (I would make a terrible lawer!)

Anyhow, always admiring your thoroughness my friend, and I'm sure your final decision will be the good one.

Enjoy your weekend


[row] [data colspan=2]#1206  11/03/2006 05:17 AM[/data] [/row]
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[/data][data] looking great!

bat $%#Ninj2

[row] [data colspan=2]#1207  11/03/2006 07:53 AM[/data] [/row]
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[/data][data]Well, the jury's returned...

I decided to look at the area in question with cycledogg's Columbus Terrain mod installed...

[size=7.5]n.b:  There seems to be a constant ongoing question as to where to DL Columbus.  There's a great
forum thread full of information here [ linkie ]
that would appear to indicate, in a later page, that it was uploaded by Andreas Roth to the STEX wrapped in an installer.  A search of the STEX, however, fails to find it under Andreas's nic or, for that matter, find anything entitled "Cycledogg's Columbus Terrain," "Columbus Terrain Mod" or some such.  The links at "Cycle Puppy's World," cycledogg's web page [ linkie ]
where Columbus used to be available, are broken.

That's because it isn't entitled anything near so straightforward and it was uploaded by cycledogg himself.  The DL is entiled Columbus Textures for jeronij's Mod...

...now that's really obvious...

...and is found on the STEX here [ linkie ]
. I'm not complaining, mind you, but a simple title change would certainly reduce the consternation level.

Now, you're not done.  If you want snow, you'll need to also DL from the STEX jeronij's Cycledoggs Columbus Terrain Snowcapped Mod [ linkie ] or Cycledoggs Columbus Terrain Snowcapped Mod Lower [ linkie ].  You also need to DL and install the updated Columbus terrain textures, CPT No3 TerrainTextures [ linkie ] and CPT No4  TerrainTextures [ linkie ].  That should get you ready to go.

...along with jeronij's "Lower" Snowcapped mod.  So, I dropped them in my otherwise bare "My Documents" plugins folder, booted SC4 back up and loaded and saved a few quads.

Here's the pics.

The first two are region level shots.


Quads 14 and 30, which we previously terraformed, have been loaded and saved.  Quads 13 and 29, also previously terraformed, remain in their pre-Columbus state.  The remaining visible quads have not yet been terraformed.

Here's the area further to the east.


One thing that is noticeable right away is that the boundary between adjacent terraformed quads will need careful attention in snowy areas.  That aside, I was really pleased with the way the "snowcapped" mountains looked at the region level.

Here's some shots from the quads.  The first two are from Quad 15.



Here's one from Quad 31.


I like these a lot.  The terraforming so far gives me the look I had in mind when I laid the area out.  There's still much more fine detailing to be done, but unless someone makes a really compelling argument to the contrary taking into account these latest pics, I will be continuing to do my mountain terraforming along these lines.


UPDATE:  (11-3-06  12:05 p.m. AST GMT-9)  Here's a pic of the same area from Region Census.


Yeah, this does what I need it to for me. [/size][/data][/row]

[row] [data colspan=2]#1208  11/03/2006 08:03 AM[/data] [/row]
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[/data][data] Good Morning David.

Did you send some cold over from Alaska here to Europe? It's getting as low as 8 degrees C here during the day. brrrrr.

An update!
Ah well that is starting out to be a nice region now that you've installed Cycledogg's terrain. What about some trees (somehow I can't get dem trees planted in GOD mode).

Have a great weekend.


[row] [data colspan=2]#1209  11/03/2006 08:18 AM[/data] [/row]
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[/data][data] So, I was right. The mountain looked small because the region is huge. Now with the cyclegog's modd, we can see that they are quite big and tall. Nice work. [/data][/row]

[row] [data colspan=2]#1210  11/03/2006 08:23 AM[/data] [/row]
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[/data][data] whoa a mod has been introduced, those snowy peaks look wonderful!! great work here dedgren!! [/data][/row]

[row] [data colspan=2]#1211  11/03/2006 10:20 AM[/data] [/row]
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[/data][data] nicely done, those mountains are huge if the region is huge as well.... great work keep it up!![/data][/row]

[row] [data colspan=2]#1212  11/03/2006 01:18 PM[/data] [/row]
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[/data][data] So, can 3RR162 be opened in wouanagaine's SC4Terraformer?

...Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep [linkie]?

On another note, I've finally crossed the one post per day of ST membership threshold

Not bad for a guy coming up on being here two-and-a-half years, eh?

Week 2 of the CJ Lists [ linkie ] up later today. [/size][/data][/row]

[row] [data colspan=2]#1213  X11/03/2006 01:30 PM[/data] [/row]
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[/data][data] wonderfull work excellent mountains[/data][/row]

[row] [data colspan=2]#1214  11/03/2006 02:11 PM[/data] [/row]
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[/data][data]tThat looks 100% better with the snow mod. Keep it! [/data][/row]

[row] [data colspan=2]#1215  11/03/2006 02:40 PM[/data] [/row]
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[/data][data] I like the snow mod, but isnt it a bit too low elevation to have snow? [/data][/row]

[row] [data colspan=2]#1216  11/03/2006 02:52 PM[/data] [/row]
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[/data][data] @ Owenluby, I think that the image is sort of deceiving, and the snow is at a high enough elevation.

Where can I get this region census tool that I hear so much about?

[row] [data colspan=2]#1217  X11/03/2006 08:41 PM[/data] [/row]
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[/data][data] Hell of a lot better, David. So, the main problem was in fact the lack of a snow mod... at least that's fixed it up a little :P

I can just imagine dense forests along there with moose, etc. :P

[row] [data colspan=2]#1218  11/03/2006 11:08 PM[/data] [/row]
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[/data][data] Meanwhile, over on the assembly lines of Planet Magrathea [ linkie ]...

Click here [ linkie ] for a full-size (6,000x~3,000 pixel) view.  It's just over a megabyte in size.

Here's a close-up- part terraformed...

...part NOT.

G'night from Alaska, all.

More good stuff tomorrow.

[row] [data colspan=2]#1219  11/04/2006 12:31 AM[/data] [/row]
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[/data][data] Great work!

bat  $%#Ninj2

[row] [data colspan=2]#1220  11/04/2006 01:32 AM[/data] [/row]
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[/data][data] wonderful. U applied a terrain mod.

waiting for more

[row] [data colspan=2]#1221  11/04/2006 02:38 AM[/data] [/row]
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[/data][data]wonderfull work on your terrain its a great looking map cant wait to see more [/data][/row]

[row] [data colspan=2]#1222  11/04/2006 10:36 AM[/data] [/row]
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[/data][data]Looks good! Keep it coming. [/data][/row]

[row] [data colspan=2]#1223  11/04/2006 01:34 PM[/data] [/row]
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[/data][data] hi David!! I should give a try to Olimpic terrain mod... IMHO looks muck better than Columbus... I don't know if it's compatible with snow tough...
Haven't tried yet...

Keep up the good work!!!! ;D

[row] [data colspan=2]#1224  11/04/2006 05:13 PM[/data] [/row]
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[/data][data] Well now when I see the region from the very top, the snow looks good! [/data][/row]

[row] [data colspan=2]#1225  11/05/2006 07:59 AM[/data] [/row]
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[/data][data] Great Terraforming! I love the way the snow looks on your mountains!  [/data][/row]

[row] [data colspan=2]#1226  11/05/2006 03:18 PM[/data] [/row]
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Livin in Sim
[/data][data] Hi, David,

Wow, what a lot of work--you are a machine--a friendly, funny, informative one, tho!

From my viewpoint it was worth it, that's for sure.  I can't wait to see the different tiles developed according to the diverse styles of the ones who have volunteered to help.  What an interesting idea to invite collaboration!

The mountains look realistic with the snow.

You had me from "So I assume everyone besides me can see this..."  Yep, we surely can!


[row] [data colspan=2]#1227  11/05/2006 10:12 PM[/data] [/row]
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So, this post carries out a promise made a while back to matt (threestooges) who observed, on 10-24

Quote...what does this "upscaling" do to the rivers and streams? Will this require a change to the scale of the bodies of water? Just a quick look at your scaled up map shows that one of the smallest parts of your streams now measures 1/6 of the distance across the new large map (this translates to about 1100 feet wide: row 7, column 5 from your recent post) I know rivers are wide, but... at any rate, I wanted to ask this now to avoid the potential for future problems.

I responded

QuoteThat is truly an excellent consideration to point out.  I will look into the issue of RL river width and it will rate an update of its own in connection with terraforming the imported quads.  Thanks!

What is the width of the rivers and streams we take for granted?  How does that width relate to the grid system of SC4?  Matt was right- are we going to wind up simply transplanting some of our old problems of scale from the 10 mile (16 kilometer) on a side version of 3RR to our new 40 mile (64 kilometer) by 40 one?  And what RL river we might be familiar with is about 1,100 feet (335 meters) wide?

We started by getting some pics from Google Map [ linkie ] using the "Hybrid" combined satellite and road view.  These were all collected with the small scale bar down in the lower left hand corner at "200 meters/500 feet" so they would be visually about the same.  You'll see these in a minute.

We then prepared an 800 pixel by 600 pixel rectangle of basic green SC4 gridsquares at the same approximate scale as the maps.  It looks like this.

For reference sake, this measures, at 102 gridsquares, about 5,100 feet (1,554 meters) wide by 78 gridsquares, or 3,900 feet (1,189 meters) high.  These dimensions, however, are not really important in the context of what we are doing.

Our first RL pic is of the mighty Mississippi River just south of the DeSoto Bridge, which carries I-40 from Tennessee over into the wilds of Arkansas.

The island on the Tennessee side is Mud Island, which was seen by millions without knowing it when Tom Cruise [ linkie ] ran across the pedestrian bridge seen in the pic just north of Jefferson Davis Park with the bad guys after him in the movie verson of John Grisham's novel The Firm [ linkie ].  I know about Memphis because my wife is from there, and she's actually visiting her mom there this evening as this is written

Anyway, the Mississippi is about 3,000 feet (914 meters) wide at this point.  Let's look at the same pic superimposed on our grid.

Man, that's a big river!  Too big for 3RR, even at its new larger size.  That's too many grid squares across to even count.

So let's try something half that wide.  Here's the same Mississippi River a couple hundred miles upstream of Memphis at St. Louis, Missouri.  Right in front of the Jefferson National Expansion Memorial [ linkie ] (see the shadow to the immediate left?) the river is about 1,500 feet (457 meters) wide.

I'm familiar with St. Louis because we used to drive there from the Chicago suburbs every summer when I was fairly small (between 6 and 10 years old) to visit my parents' friends Bob and Shirley, who lived in Kirkwood, a western suburb of Saint Looie.  Crossing the Mississippi on one of the old downtown bridges (I-55 wasn't built yet) was one of the high points of the trip.  I recall thinking that the Mississippi was everything Mark Twain [ linkie ] had made it out to be and more.  Red indians, riverboats, bandits, caves, and escaped slaves were never far from mind on those trips.

Here's the same pic superimposed on our gridsquares.

About 30-35 gridsquares wide "on the bias" so to speak.  Still far bigger than any river we will see in 3RR162.

...Overnight break (to 10-6-06 at 5:15 a.m. AST GMT-9)...

Back again with our next river, this time the Ohio at Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

For those who are familiar with this area, you may agree with me that this is one of the most dramatic urban riverscapes out there, and especially at night.  It is in the heart of Pittsburgh, and the openness provided by the rivers presents incredible vistas in every direction.  Pittsburgh is set in a very hilly area, and the city development around you is just an amazing sight.  I've never been there other than just to drive through to see the views I'm describing.

The large channel from the confluence leading to the left side of the pic is the Ohio River [ linkie ] starting its 981 mile journey westward to the Mississippi at Cairo, Illinois.  It is, by a series of locks and dams, navigable over its entire length and as a result has been an extraordinarily important artery of US commerce throughout almost the country's entire history.  The portion of the river we see here is about 1,200 feet (366 meters) in width at the left edge of the pic.  The two rivers leading to the right side of the pic are, to the upper left, the Alleghany, and lower left, the Monongahela, important local rivers in their own right. The Alleghany's channel here is about 900 feet (274 meters) wide and the Monongahela's is about 1,000 feet in width.  These are rivers, then, of about the size referred to by Matt (threestooges) in the post that set this inquiry in motion.

Here's the pic superimposed on our SC4 gridsquares.

I see these channel sizes, 900 to 1,200 feet (274 to 366 meters) as being models for the largest waterways in 3RR.  They would be 20-25 gridsquares wide.  We'll hold that thought until we get to a later continuation of this post.

Our next stop is the Hudson River on the waterfront of Albany, New York.  I'm quite familiar with this area, as my daughter Liz graduated from Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute [ linkie ], located a few miles up the river in Troy, a few years back.  The river is about 800 feet wide just south of the Dunn Memorial Bridge.

As an aside, the Dunn Bridge is interesting for several reasons.  The first is that it ends abruptly at its eastern end...quite abruptly, actually...

[size=7.5pt]Credit: CapitolHighways.8m.com - all rights reserved in original[/size]

...those highway engineers...what jokesters they are!

The second is that, in 2005, it broke.

[size=7.5pt] Credit: Gene Kendrick / WNYT News, Albany - all rights reserved in original [/size]

That looks like a major, "Aw, sh-t" to me.  That ramp is nine stories (89 feet/27 meters) high.  I have driven on it (note use of past tense permanent).

So, back on topic, lets superimpose the Hudson onto our SC4 gridsquares.

...I'm sure that interchange at the west end of the bridge is in the next NAM...


800 feet (244 meters), about 16 gridsquares wide, appears to be a good width for upstream sections of major rivers.

Our next river is the James at Richmond, Virginia.  Richmond is where I went to grad and law school, getting my Masters in Urban and Regional Planning from Virginia Commonwealth University [ linkie ] and my law degree from T.C. Williams School of Law at the University of Richmond [ linkie ].  I probably drove across the Richmond-Petersburg Turnpike bridge at the center of the pic about every day for three years in the late 1980s.

The main channel of the James River to the west of the bridge and south of Mayo's Island is about 500 feet (152 meters) wide.  The Falls of the James (Richmond is one of the fall line cities [ linkie ] for all you history and geography buffs out there) is the wooded area to the west of Mayo's Island.  The river is about 700-750 feet (213-229 meters) wide east of the bridge.  There are places downstream as the James nears Chesapeake Bay [ linkie ] where it is several miles wide.  It's a wonderful and beautiful river in a great state.

Here's a pics with the James appearing against our SC4 gridsquare background.

This width (about 10 gridsquares) appears to be a good intermediate width for 3RR's major rivers.  It is at this point where they would reach the limit of navigability.

Back a little closer to my boyhood home, we next look at a really nice small river, the Kankakee, that rises in Indiana and flows westward about 50 miles south of Chicago into the Illinois River south of Joliet.  We see it here in the city of Kankakee, where it is about 400 feet (122 meters) wide.

Here is the same pic superimposed over our gridsquares.

The eight gridsquare or so wide Kankakee, along with with the Fox River shown in the next several pics, is broadly representative of the hundreds of small rivers you cross on a drive across any US state.  It's not navigable in any commercial sense, but on any given summer weekend you're likely to find all manner of local folks in small boats and canoes out on the water having a great time.

The Fox River is also close to where I grew up in the western suburbs of Chicago.  It rises in southern Wisconsin and flows to the south and then south-west about 50 miles west of the city.  Here we see it flowing through the center of the city of Aurora, which you will recall if you ever saw the movie .

South of Stolp Island (toward the lower left corner of the pic), the Fox flows free through a 300 foot (91 meter) wide channel.  There is a dam in the channel on each side of the Island between New York Street and East Galena Boulevard, with the impounded river upstream being about 500 or so feet (~152 meters) in width.  The Fox River is a very scenic stream, and is a wonderful amenity in the many suburban communities through which it flows.

Here it is flowing across our gridsquares, at about 6 squares wide downstream of the island.

We're now clearly down to the stream level.  The next pic shows the Grasse River as it flows through Canton, New York, where I worked as a county planner in the early 1990s before moving on to Alaska.

The Grasse rises in the northern Adirondacks [ linkie ] south of this gem of a small upstate New York town.  It is about 200 feet (61 meters) wide just south of the US 11 bridge in the main channel east of the island.  Note the falls downstream of the bridge.

Here's the pic superimposed on our SC4 gridsquares.

As you can see, that channel is about four gridsquares wide.  This is a good width for the major tributary streams of 3RR's rivers.

At the 100 foot (30 meter) width, we return to northern Illinois just a few miles south of Naperville, the town in which I lived during my high school years.  The following pic is of a local stream we derisively called the "Roaring DuPage.   Here, the DuPage River flows north and west of the town of Plainfield.

I once spent a long summer day pulling a canoe across gravel beds and mud bars for most of the way between Naperville and Plainfield.  I'd seen deeper bathtubs...

Here's our two gridsquare wide DuPage against the SC4 background.

Further upstream, in my town- Naperville, we again see the Dupage, this time about 1/4 mile (4/10 kilometer) from my old house.  I lived on Oxford Lane, which you see at the  center-right of the pic.  My old house, which was pretty nice (my folks bought it for US$39,500 in 1965 and sold it for a quarter mil in the late 1980s) was torn down in the 90s so a could be built in its place.

The blue rectangle is the area of the following pic, which shows the 75th Street bridge over the DuPage.

The bare light colored areas next to the river north and south of 75th are gas stations (a Phillips 66 to the north and an Amoco to the south) that were there when I was a kid and the intersection was just two two-lane roads crossing each other on the edge of the farmlands to the south.

...ahhh, progress...

Anyway, here's the Roaring DuPage in all of its one gridsquare wide glory.

So here's a table based on the foregoing to conclude this portion of the post.
Classification   Width   Gridsquares
Large River   1,000-1,200 feet/300-350 meters   20-24 gridsquares
Medium River   600-800 feet/175-250 meters   12-16 gridsquares
Small River   300-400 feet/90-125 meters   6-8 gridsquares
Large Stream   200 feet/60 meters   4 gridsquares
Small Stream   50-100 feet/16-30 meters   1-2 gridsquares

I'll be terraforming 3RR162 in accordance with this.  More info on specifics in Part 2 of this update over the next few days.

[row] [data colspan=2]#1228  11/06/2006 05:55 AM[/data] [/row]
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[/data][data] Nighty-night David. Sleep tight (as in have your ropes around your matrass tighted fast, sorry reffering to the CJ of John (Darmok)).

I guess your point is that 3RR does now not have any rivers anymore just streams or wadi's?


[row] [data colspan=2]#1229  X11/06/2006 07:01 AM[/data] [/row]
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[/data][data] Your region looks great! Are you going to change the naem of your cj? I'm just wondering because that region has more than three rivers (or streams I guess). [/data][/row]

D. Edgren

Please call me David...

Three Rivers Region- A collaborative development of the SC4 community
The 3RR Quick Finder [linkie]

I aten't dead.  —  R.I.P. Granny Weatherwax

Skype: davidredgren