Started by z, August 02, 2008, 05:07:50 PM
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Quote from: z on December 07, 2009, 06:33:21 PMThe CvS curve is just a variable number of points on a two-dimensional graph, which are interpreted as line segments by the game. The points can theoretically have any values greater or equal to 0.3, but in practice, they tend to fall near a straight line. However, taken as a whole, they don't form any curve that can be described mathematically.One of the uses of the CvS curve is to improve the performance of the pathfinder. Ideally, you want the CvS curve to assist in tie-breaking for A*, but not have too many points, as that increases the number of necessary calculations. I did a number of experiments that determined that the ideal number of points for this curve in SC4 is six, with the slope of each succeeding line segment being at least slightly different from its neighbor.
Quote from: z on December 08, 2009, 12:24:03 PM Normally, congestion starts showing up when the network volume exceeds 100%.
Quote from: z on December 08, 2009, 05:01:58 PMAs for the highway lanes, I assume you're talking about the Maxis highway; I have not seen what you describe there. Since there's only a single tile for each direction, the cars per lane would not be affected by the traffic simulator directly; it's more a function of the automata.If you're talking about the RHW, again, I haven't seen this problem, and this has been tested thoroughly. Simulator Z using the same speed premium as Simulator A here (30%), and this premium has been shown to be quite sufficient to provide excellent lane spreading.
Quote from: z on December 08, 2009, 05:01:58 PMYour other test results and interpretation also make sense for the CvS curve, although such settings would effectively redefine what capacity and congestion meant if they were actually used.
Quote from: ldog on December 08, 2009, 05:31:20 PMI was, I remember you saying somewhere that the Maxis highways had 3 lanes each way. No, of course I'm not talking about the automata. Talking about the route query. For example on a road, you can see an arrow going each way (1 each direction), on a crowded OWR I will see 2 arrows (going the same direction of course).
QuoteOn an ave, the same effect on each tile. Highway I have on occasion seen the same effect as on the Ave. I've also seen pedestrians walk down both sides of a road (street, owr, what have you). Now it is not clear to me if this is just a graphical artifact or if it means separate paths actually being traveled on the same tile.
QuoteThis is what I assumed y'all were talking about in prior discussions about spreading into lanes.
QuoteRHW I really don't have enough experience with to make any statements about. I played around with them only briefly, when I first installed the NAM, back when I actually played instead of playtesting. The only piece of the NAM I have installed (when not testing Mark's region) is the zone dataview.
QuoteOne of the things that stands out is besides the fact that congestion is caused by both morning and evening commute volumes it is also static as far as time is concerned; every single sim that travels along a given network is considered to be there at all points in time.
QuoteDid not see any train stations that high but 1 thing I will say, I think when setting TSEC it should be done based on 30% speed since congestion may not affect the station but it does affect shortcutting through it. As congestion goes up the station becomes more desirable to shortcut across if the TSEC was set according to normal speed.
Quote from: z on December 08, 2009, 07:56:57 PMAlthough there is one path per lane on the Maxis highway, the route query arrows aren't related to those paths; instead, they seem simply to be related to routes. Take a look a the following picture:As you can see, the highway is not particularly crowded on the far side, yet there are three route arrows for cars and one for buses - more than the number of lanes. This would seem to rule out a correlation between the number of route arrows and the number of lanes in use. It would also mean that the values in the CvS curve do not affect the number of arrows you see.The automata follow the paths; by using the "drawpaths" cheat, you can see that indeed it does mean that separate paths are being traveled on the same tile.No, spreading only applies to multiple-tile roadways going in the same direction; right now, the RHW is the only example of this.I should simply add here that shortly after I made my last post, I realized (and it was also pointed out to me independently) that the 30% speed premium of Simulator A is not identical to the 30% speed premium of Simulator Z, since Simulator A has 100% of nominal speed at only 75% capacity. This makes its speed curve steeper for low speeds than Simulator Z's. However, my own tests have shown that spreading works fine in Simulator Z with its CvS curve. Again, the PH plays an important part here. With a higher PH, Simulator Z's CvS curve might not produce satisfactory spreading.I also tested lower values for the speed premium, specifically 20% and then 25%. Even going down to 25% was enough to reduce spreading to uneven levels. So considering that Simulator Z uses perfect pathfinding, I can say that 30% is the minimum speed premium between 0% and 100% capacity that produces even spreading on the RHW.Yes, we only see a total for each commute period, and I've seen no reason to believe that the simulator divides things any finer internally.I disagree here; many experiments have shown that there are severe penalties for setting the TSEC too high; i.e., the Sims will often stop using that transit line. On the other hand, shortcutting has not been shown to have any real impact on game play. I think that the best way to set the TSEC is to set it to .96 divided by the nominal speed of the fastest travel type that actually passes through the TE lot. This will eliminate shortcutting in many situations, and reduce it in others. In cases where shortcutting does exist, it can be minimized or eliminated by designing the TE lot well.
Quote from: z on December 08, 2009, 07:56:57 PMI disagree here; many experiments have shown that there are severe penalties for setting the TSEC too high; i.e., the Sims will often stop using that transit line. On the other hand, shortcutting has not been shown to have any real impact on game play. I think that the best way to set the TSEC is to set it to .96 divided by the nominal speed of the fastest travel type that actually passes through the TE lot. This will eliminate shortcutting in many situations, and reduce it in others. In cases where shortcutting does exist, it can be minimized or eliminated by designing the TE lot well.
Quote from: ldog on December 08, 2009, 08:27:30 PMI'm still torn on that. Sometimes it does; ped speed 1km, TSEC .96 (horrible disaster) and sometimes it doesn't; 3.5km and TSEC .27 seems to work just fine...in theory they should be equivilant but they aren't apparently.
Quote. What I'm talking about though is offline stations with parallel routes; the amount of trains that will shortcut through the station instead of staying on the rail skyrockets.
QuoteTE lots that allow through car traffic are also horrible about that, regardless of the PH sometimes it seems (I mentioned that in a pm about a week ago I think).
Quote from: sumwonyuno on December 06, 2009, 04:01:03 AMThe Capitalis City Council and Citizens Against Virtually Everything are in an uproar.
QuoteYou might want to try rezoning the commercial areas in Obama's neighborhood to high density to see what traffic patterns occur for Makiki residents and westbound freeway commuters. Same thing for the Waikiki city tile. (I'm assuming you know the places I'm talking about ).
QuoteAs for the eastern suburbs, I'm talking about Sector 24, 25, 26. All commuters should be going west. I don't believe it's me mistaking the morning/evening route query. Assuming you haven't resaved the city tiles, try Sector 25, and don't unpause. Query the avenue and it should say ~11000 cars westbound and ~7000 eastbound. Those 7000 eastbound shouldn't be going to Sector 26, because there's isn't that many jobs out there. It probably has to do with some legacy issue in my region.Sector 22 <- 23 <- 24 <- 25 <- 26 <- 18 is the general pattern I'm aiming for, but it's not what is happening in the game.
QuoteFeel free to do testing on the one-way road modifications on my region.
Quote from: z on December 11, 2009, 07:51:15 PMOn a related note, I looked more into what I've been calling the "intrinsic" advantage of one-way roads over two-way roads, which we've been mentally adding on to this 30% number. When I look closely, though, it seems that it most situations, there is no intrinsic advantage at all. It seems that it exists only in rather rare commuting situations. It's certainly possible that I'm missing something, but I don't see what. If someone sees what this intrinsic advantage is, could they please point it out here? Actual numbers would be extremely helpful.
Quote from: xxdita on December 11, 2009, 07:58:20 PMBut according to the Census Repository, both cities have roughly 2,000 commuters coming in. Any ideas on how to deal with the hobos?
Quote from: ldog on December 11, 2009, 08:13:12 PMSteve, are you talking about in real world or in the game?
QuoteI would say in SC4 they have no intrinsic advantage. Which is why they need greater speed and/or capacity to give them some advantage.
QuoteThe same thing goes for the avenue since it basicly is a much more expensive pair of OWR. And then so it needs advantage over 2 OWR and/or it needs to be reduced in cost (plop and maintenance)
Quote from: z on December 11, 2009, 08:38:41 PMIt's not quite the same, since you can't have timed stoplights for a two-way avenue that work the same as for a OWR. But I've already mentioned the possibility of having faster avenues as an alternative to the standard ones (for suburban and exurban areas, for example), and I'll be going into this more in a post that will be coming soon.
Quote from: k808j on December 15, 2009, 09:49:46 PMSure, I'm game for a little beta. Remove the other beta versions first?
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