Slightly Off Topic: CITIES XL & Custom Content

[jeronij]

It was a friendly and interesting conversation indeed 

No many conclusions yet 

[XiahouDun]

Baa, stupid having to work. Would love to get into that conversation Can't wait to hear about this "interesting conversation"

[RippleJet]

Below is the transcript from the Chat with Philippe da Silva four days ago.
Everybody involved has approved to let us post it here.

Let me first of all thank Philippe for initiating this discussion,
and for letting us bring forward some of our ideas and concerns.

At this stage this discussion must be seen as the first step forward regarding Custom Content production for Cities XL.
No decisions have been made based on it, and nothing said must be taken as either promises or denials.
Further discussion will certainly still be needed.

People taking part in the discussion were (rougly in order of appearance):
- Philippe da Silva (PhilippeCitiesXL)
- Joe (JoeST)
- Shaun (Diggis)
- Barby (BarbyW)
- Richard (Zero7)
- Tage (RippleJet)
- Piotr (Sheep49)
- Jonathan (Warrior)
- Glenni (Glenni)
- Lee (Callagrafx)
- Jeroni (Jeronij)
- Pat (plfd648_pat)
- Fred (freedo50)
- Adam (Ennedi)

All timestamps are UK DST (GMT+1).

17:01 < PhilippeCitiesXL> So, in order to introduce this meeting, I think it would be better for everyone to introduce him/herself so I know who is who as you may already know each other
17:01 -!- zero7 [i=4f45a87d@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-bfbb3214f8cc6622] has joined #sc4d
17:01 < PhilippeCitiesXL> I start
17:02 -!- callagrafx [i=5686d735@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-0b76c0cde24da137] has quit [Client Quit]
17:02 < PhilippeCitiesXL> I'm Philippe Da Silva, Internet Director at Monte Cristo and working on the web side of things for CITIES XL
17:02 < diggis> I'm Shaun from New Zealand, living in London, known as diggis
17:02 < barbyw> I'm Barbara Winterton of BSC. I don't BAT but I do lot and mod.
17:03 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Hi Diggis
17:03 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Hi Barbara
17:03 < RippleJet> I'm Tage Lindfors, naval architect, living on Åland, known for making some modding...
17:03 < RippleJet> Åland is in Finland
17:03 < barbyw> I live in Brittany.
17:03 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Oh, and I live in Paris, France
17:03 < zero7> I'm Richard Pluck - long time producer of BAT buildings.  I'm in the UK
17:03 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Hi Richard
17:03 < Sheep49> I'm Piotr from Poland, live in Gdynia, I'm known as Sheep49
17:03 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Hi Piotr
17:04 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Piotr, I love Krakovia
17:04 < Warrior> I'm Jonathan (Jon) a member of the NAM Team, I live in England and go to school
17:04 < barbyw> Hi Rich
17:04 < zero7> Hi Barby
17:04 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Hi Jon
17:04 < Sheep49> hi everyone
17:04 < RippleJet> Hi everyone
17:04 -!- callagrafx [i=5686d735@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-74fe78466e963d76] has joined #sc4d
17:04 < PhilippeCitiesXL> ok, I think everyone introduced imself except Glenni
17:04 < Glenni> i'm writing the sentance already:P
17:05 < RippleJet> lol
17:05 < diggis> ohh blue
17:05 < Sheep49> lol
17:05 < callagrafx> Sorry about that....Bloody Windows got a virus, had to switch back to Mac
17:05 < Sheep49> ok
17:05 < PhilippeCitiesXL> I first want to thank you all for being here
17:05 < Glenni> I'm Glenn Ruben, I've been making BATs for the past 3 years, now part of NDEX;)
17:05 < PhilippeCitiesXL> It's always great to talk about what we are doing with CITIES XL and I know you may have a lot of questions
17:05 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Hi Glenn
17:06 < Glenni> and i'm a bit of an ammateur not exactly a proffesion, so to say, strictly a hobby in my spare time.
17:06 < PhilippeCitiesXL> In order to organize ourselves for this meeting, I'll lead the discussions and I would appreciate if you could make a RAISE HAND when willing to talk
17:06 < diggis> a what?
17:06 < callagrafx> que?
17:06 < PhilippeCitiesXL> RAISE HAVE
17:06 < PhilippeCitiesXL> SOrry
17:06 < PhilippeCitiesXL> RAISE HAND
17:06 < diggis> just write that?
17:06 < PhilippeCitiesXL> When you want to talk yes
17:07 < callagrafx> ok
17:07 < PhilippeCitiesXL> thanks
17:07 < Glenni> allrighty
17:07 < PhilippeCitiesXL> So, the main topic today
17:07 < PhilippeCitiesXL> is
17:07 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Custom Content and CITIES XL
17:07 < PhilippeCitiesXL>
17:07 < PhilippeCitiesXL> We all know that SimCity 4 is still around thanks for all the great job modders and batters have been doing
17:08 < PhilippeCitiesXL> And reported to players thanks to the great community websites such as sc4devotion and Simtrop to name only those two
17:08 < PhilippeCitiesXL> With SIMCITY 4, you had to get into the deep analysis of binary files so to understand how you could mod the game
17:08 < PhilippeCitiesXL> And you had a few editors to bat your buildings for the game
17:09 < PhilippeCitiesXL> As a start, I would like to ask you all a question:
17:09 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Who didn't read the blog entry we made recently about Isabella's House?
17:09 < RippleJet> RAISE HAND I didn't
17:09 < callagrafx> RAISE HAND nor me
17:10 < diggis> RAISE HAND ummm... me, to be honest I haven't followed any development
17:10 < barbyw> RAISE HAND I didn't
17:10 < Warrior> RAISE HAND I skimmed over it
17:10 < Sheep49> RAISE HAND I didn't see it
17:10 < PhilippeCitiesXL> ok
17:11 < PhilippeCitiesXL> I really invite you all to read it as you will see the overall principles behind modeling and texturing a building for CITIES XL
17:11 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Let me copy past the url
17:11 < PhilippeCitiesXL> http://www.citiesxl.com/index.php?/content/view/36/1/lang,en/
17:11 < PhilippeCitiesXL> You should definitivelly have a look at it so to understand what is behind it
17:12 < PhilippeCitiesXL> At Monte Cristo, we are not against having custom content on CITIES XL
17:12 < barbyw> RAISE HAND I am reading it now
17:12 < PhilippeCitiesXL> However, what you used to do with SimCity 4 won't necessarly work with CITIES XL
17:12 < callagrafx> RAISE HAND so I am I...so the main principle will be detail done with normal mapping...we're talking very low poly models, correct?
17:13 < PhilippeCitiesXL> cal: we are talking about low poly models
17:13 < PhilippeCitiesXL> yes
17:13 < PhilippeCitiesXL> We have 4 LODs (level of details)
17:13 < PhilippeCitiesXL> the biggest is around 1000 polys
17:13 < zero7> RAISE HAND  Yes, there are clear differences between the high poly modelling in SC4 compered to the low poly modelling in CXL
17:13 < PhilippeCitiesXL> the 4th one is around 100
17:14 < PhilippeCitiesXL> There are a lot of technics to get high poly renders to low poly textures
17:14 < PhilippeCitiesXL> but you may have to learn them in order to produce custom content for the game
17:14 < Glenni> RAISE HAND, i think you can get some rather decent models in this game, despite the fact that the models won't be as detailed as in sc4 though.
17:14 < diggis> RAISE HAND so we have to manually create all 4 levels?
17:15 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Glenni: Yes
17:15 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Diggis: yes
17:15 < callagrafx> RAISE HAND actually Richard no, the models used in SC4 are even lower....but with XL the buildings will have to look very detailed but with very few polys....bit of a challenge but can't see a problem.  Using 3DS Max Phillipe?
17:15 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Internally, our artists take around 5 dedicated full days to create one building from scratch
17:15 < Glenni> RAISE HAND, does it matter which version of max you use?
17:15 < PhilippeCitiesXL> cal: yes we do use 3DSMax
17:16 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Glenni: it does in a sense because we developed our tools and exporters for the game on only one version
17:16 < Glenni> RAISE HAND; which particular version are we talking about then?
17:16 < PhilippeCitiesXL> However, this is not a final statement as our export format is XML based which could allows us or some other programmers to develop exporters for other 3D software
17:17 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Glenni: 2008
17:17 < callagrafx> RAISE HAND Chris Adams has done a lot of work re-engineering those scripts Glenni
17:17 < callagrafx> RAISE HAND You've custom written an export Plugin Phillipe?
17:17 < PhilippeCitiesXL> So, we are opened to other 3d software if someone in the community would want to do so
17:17 < PhilippeCitiesXL> cal: yes
17:17 < PhilippeCitiesXL> so that it matches our texture and shader requirements in the game
17:18 < JoeST> RAISE HAND hey, sorry bout me not actually being her
17:18 < JoeST> here*
17:18 < PhilippeCitiesXL> ok
17:18 < PhilippeCitiesXL> So, each building in CITIES XL is divided into the following content:
17:18 < PhilippeCitiesXL> A. 4 models low poly (1000 to 100)
17:18 < Glenni> RAISE HAND, is it possible that you could make these scripts compatible with the older versions of 3DSmax though, like say 9.0 or even 7.0?
17:18 < PhilippeCitiesXL> B. One diffuse texture
17:19 < PhilippeCitiesXL> C. One ambient texture
17:19 < PhilippeCitiesXL> D. One  lightmap texture
17:19 < Warrior> RAISE HAND Would the exporter take the high poly model and create lower poly models for you or would you have to do it manually?
17:19 < PhilippeCitiesXL> E. One normal map texture
17:19 < PhilippeCitiesXL> F. One Specular map texture
17:19 < PhilippeCitiesXL> and a few other textures for some more details
17:19 < callagrafx> RAISE HAND:  Question?  Why use so many lights in a scene when 4 photometrics would do the same?
17:20 < Glenni> RAISE HAND, as for normal maps, would we maybe get some tutorials on these? i know what they are of,r but quite frankly i have made nor edited one.
17:20 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Glenni: we won't make this but we could imagine to share our xml file definition to have other programmers working on it
17:20 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Warrior: Models are built manually
17:20 < Glenni> never made*
17:20 -!- CasperVg [n=CasperVg@78-21-12-254.access.telenet.be] has left #sc4d []
17:21 < PhilippeCitiesXL> cal: I'm sorry, but I'm not a graphics expert and the art pipeline is the responsability of Florent (Art Director of the game). I may ask him someday this question
17:21 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Glenni: On normal map tutorials, I don't know if we will have time to help you out on that
17:21 < PhilippeCitiesXL> So
17:22 < callagrafx> RAISE HAND ok, just a thought.  Glenni, there are plenty of tutorials out there to help.  It's not up to MC to teach us how to model :-P
17:22 < PhilippeCitiesXL> just to sumarize, I think you now have a better view on the differences between creating a building for CITIES XL and SC4
17:22 < PhilippeCitiesXL> It's important that you understand that on your side for the sake of the conversation
17:23 < PhilippeCitiesXL>
17:23 < diggis> RAISE HAND: When you said building, do you actually mean a whole Lot?  Thats the impression I get from the link you provided
17:23 < callagrafx> RAISE HAND the principles are the same, the difference is the final result.  The big issue is the modding aspect I think
17:23 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Diggis: The building and the lot are two different things
17:23 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Diggis: I was talking about the Building itself
17:23 < zero7> RAISE HAND The key for me is getting from a model to a working game object
17:24 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Cal: Mostly but you have much more work because of the different textures
17:24 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Zero7: You are right, we are now getting into the second part of the discussion:
17:24 < Glenni> RAIS HAND, are the "lots" bult like in city life? And will they be editable as with the building editor that came with City Life Deluxe for instance?
17:24 < PhilippeCitiesXL> So
17:24 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Once buildings are modelled, we have to place them on lots
17:25 < zero7> RAISE HAND Also which game objects can be customised vehicles, roads etc.
17:25 < PhilippeCitiesXL> We have inner tools that are not suitable for release as they are really made for internal usage
17:25 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Quite complicated to be honest
17:25 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Moreover, we merge two things into the building editor we have:
17:25 < JoeST> RAISE HAND are you going to help the community make their own tools?
17:26 < PhilippeCitiesXL> 1. Take art assets and place them in lots
17:26 < PhilippeCitiesXL> 2. Associate Game level design elements on them so they act in the game and simulation
17:26 < PhilippeCitiesXL> JoeST: we will help if it makes sense to... If we can spend time we'll do, for sure
17:26 < PhilippeCitiesXL> It depends on many points
17:27 < PhilippeCitiesXL> The Level Design of buildings
17:27 < PhilippeCitiesXL> is made internally by our teams
17:27 < diggis> LOWERS HAND: Right, sorry I can't stay, but it's 5:30 in London and that = Pub.  Good luck all.
17:27 < PhilippeCitiesXL> cheers diggis
17:27 < PhilippeCitiesXL> ok
17:28 < PhilippeCitiesXL> So, on the Building Editor, we put all the tags required for the game to use as well as the properties
17:28 < PhilippeCitiesXL> We also place some dummy points for the trafic system, and other animations
17:28 < RippleJet> RAISE HAND So there will be no way for us to mod the properties ourselves?
17:28 < PhilippeCitiesXL> So that we have cars getting out and in houses our buildings as well as pedestrians
17:29 < PhilippeCitiesXL> RippleJet: that's not going to happen and I'll explain why
17:29 < callagrafx> RAISE HAND Sorry, it does make sense to provide us with the necessary tools...Maxis figured that out and SC4 is still for sale in shops.
17:29 < PhilippeCitiesXL> 1. We have an online side of the game and we need to make sure we have a good control of the buildings that are on the online game to avoid cheating
17:29 < PhilippeCitiesXL> cal: I never said we won't do it, I said we may do it
17:29 < barbyw> RAISE HAND: so it appears that the answer to David's question: "Will CXL offer to the user community tools, such as SC4's Building Architect Tool ("BAT") and Lot Editor, so that individual game purchasers can develop custom content?" is No
17:30 -!- diggis [i=522c7f54@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-9643f6bdc409072c] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"]
17:30 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Barb: not necessarly
17:30 < PhilippeCitiesXL> However, we cannot give you full control on the building properties
17:30 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Let me explain you what we would like to achieve
17:30 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Ideally
17:31 < PhilippeCitiesXL> We would like players willing to go on the Custom Content creation to have the right tools (provided by us and other dedicated community members) to create Art Assets
17:32 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Once those assets are made, we would take them and place them in our level design pipeline with YOUR recommendations as how they should react in the Sim
17:32 < callagrafx> RAISE HAND: Without full control, how can we add content that fits in-game?  We submit it to MC for inclusion?  So you want control of all content made for CXL?  Do you realise the sheer volume of work you're opening yoursleves up for?
17:32 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Then, we would take care of its distribution to players throught our website and our dispatcher system that allows players to download and manage their buildings
17:33 < PhilippeCitiesXL> cal: Yes we do
17:33 < PhilippeCitiesXL> cal: But there is no other way around
17:33 < zero7> RAISE HAND  Given how quickly the LEX and more particularly the STEX move that will create a massive bottleneck and need for contant resource from MOnte CRisto
17:33 < PhilippeCitiesXL> We need to have a good control on it for two main reasons:
17:33 < Warrior> RAISE HAND So we can not make custom content and then play with it in game before it has gone through MC?
17:34 < callagrafx> RAISE HAND How do we test stuff then?  Quality is a big issue for a lot of us
17:34 < zero7> RAISE HAND Surely a better way would be to restrict the online game to certified content - so MC just act as a quality filter.  Leave the offline game free as SC4 is
17:34 < PhilippeCitiesXL> cal: you'd have a viewer that would show you the end result of the building
17:34 < PhilippeCitiesXL> in the game engine
17:35 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Zero7: it's not that easy
17:35 < PhilippeCitiesXL> there are a lot of concerns on the technical side especially on the fact that we would have to manage the loading of both types of buildings
17:35 < PhilippeCitiesXL> So
17:36 < Sheep49> RAISE HAND: Sorry.  I have to go to the psychologian now Thanks for explaining a lot to us
17:36 < Sheep49> Have a nice day all
17:36 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Custom Buildings is definitivelly possible and we also want to help the community to spread it to players by having a shared content system
17:36 < PhilippeCitiesXL> By Sheep
17:36 < PhilippeCitiesXL> and thanks for being here
17:36 -!- Sheep49 [n=Sheep49@acrq190.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit ["Leaving"]
17:37 < callagrafx> RAISE HAND ok, that would make sense....however I have to tell you that the current SC4 community would probably not develop content for CXL based on these parameters.  Only a small proportion create the models, others like Warrior and Ripplejet play with the "engine"
17:37 < PhilippeCitiesXL> We need to maintain level design properties for game consistency
17:37 < callagrafx> RAISE HAND We're pretty good at that already, as we;
17:37 < PhilippeCitiesXL> cal: On the engine, or say modding, that is something we haven't look at to be honest
17:38 < callagrafx> 've improved SC4 beyond anything Maxis could have imagined
17:38 < PhilippeCitiesXL> I know cal you are, I've seen what you've done with the NAM
17:38 < barbyw> RAISE HAND: will the user community be free (meaning no interference, oversight, royalty charges or other regulation by Monte Cristo ("MC")) to create independent fansite exchanges of custom content such as those on SC4 fansites such as SC4Devotion or Simtropolis?
17:38 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Barb: I cannot tell you that for now
17:39 -!- jeronij [i=5801bbb4@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-b01158cc04ca30b8] has joined #sc4d
17:39 < PhilippeCitiesXL> But I have a big surprise for our website birthday
17:39 < PhilippeCitiesXL>
17:39 < PhilippeCitiesXL> We don't want players to be forced to pay anything for custom content
17:40 < PhilippeCitiesXL> So, to sum up things:
17:40 < callagrafx> RAISE HAND We've never charged for content and we cannot without breaking the EULA
17:40 < PhilippeCitiesXL> cal: yes
17:40 < PhilippeCitiesXL> By the way
17:40 < jeronij> hello to all
17:40 < PhilippeCitiesXL> May I ask you all a question?
17:40 < PhilippeCitiesXL> hi Jeronij
17:40 < jeronij> just arrived
17:40 < PhilippeCitiesXL> thanks for joining
17:40 < barbyw> RAISE HAND: hello Jeroni
17:41 < jeronij> I'lll sit and listen until I get the main idea
17:41 < callagrafx> RAISE HAND Ola
17:41 < RippleJet> RAISE HAND I suppose you will be restricting yourself to a certain number of standard buildings in that case?
17:41 < RippleJet> RAISE HAND Jeroni, say RAISE HAND if you want to talk lol
17:41 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Jeronij: can I thank you so much for the great custom content you brought to my own SC4 installation?
17:42 < PhilippeCitiesXL> RippleJet: No, we want players to develop whatever building they want for the game
17:42 < jeronij> Really ?? .... it is always great to know that people enjoys my CC
17:42 < RippleJet> RAISE HAND Ok, so a commercial office with a subway station and a functional medical clinic on the first floor would be fully possible?
17:42 < PhilippeCitiesXL> RippleJet: yes
17:43 < callagrafx> RAISE HAND lol  Don't forget the helipda
17:43 < callagrafx> *helipad
17:43 < PhilippeCitiesXL> However, you would have to state us what you would like the building to be on their function
17:43 < PhilippeCitiesXL> And then, we would simply apply ourselves the required properties
17:43 < RippleJet> RAISE HAND Who would decide the capacity for the subway station and the clinic?
17:43 < PhilippeCitiesXL> We would but you could share with us some recommendations
17:44 < PhilippeCitiesXL> We need to make sure the economics are consistent
17:44 < PhilippeCitiesXL> with the sim
17:44 < RippleJet> RAISE HAND Can custom queries be made for buildings?
17:44 < PhilippeCitiesXL> We would ideally want to work hand in hand with Custom Content makers
17:44 < PhilippeCitiesXL> RippleJet: yes
17:44 < RippleJet> RAISE HAND and can those queries e.g. report variabled from within the simulator?
17:44 < RippleJet> variables*
17:45 < PhilippeCitiesXL> RippleJet: yes
17:45 < Glenni> RAISE HAND there is a probblem with though, as the years pass it's always the risk of the developer of a game to move on from the game, and abandondoning it's fanbase, not maintaining the modsite for it anymore, meaning no custom content can be uploaded, because there's noone on the other end to receive the files you sned in.
17:45 < zero7> RAISE HAND What happens to custom content production when MC need all their resource to create another game?
17:45 < callagrafx> RAISE HAND the problem comes when MC move onto the next project and all support for CC and CXL disappear, as what happened when Will Wright started Spore
17:45 < Glenni> send*
17:45 < zero7> RAISE HAND cal - great minds ...
17:45 < callagrafx> great minds :-)
17:45 < Warrior> RAISE HAND that is not a coincidence I was thinking the same thing
17:45 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Glenni: that won't happen
17:46 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Glenni: we are commited for a long term support for CITIES XL!
17:46 < Glenni> RAISE HAND: are you absolutely sure about that?
17:46 < callagrafx> RAISE HAND because we've all experienced it.  Anyone been to simcity.com recently?
17:46 < PhilippeCitiesXL> We put all our resources and money: we are a ONE product based company now
17:46 < Glenni> RAISE HAND: Spambox,com? yeah... not for the past months though XD
17:46 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Guys, CITIES XL is MC's future!
17:46 < callagrafx> RAISE HAND You still have to pay your staff to maintain something you may not be getting sales revenue from
17:46 < PhilippeCitiesXL> MC is not leaving CITIES XL unless it doesn't work!
17:47 < RippleJet> RAISE HAND will you accept all custom content sent in to you, or will there be some kind of criteria for what is good enough?
17:47 < PhilippeCitiesXL> And if it doesn't work, nothing forbids us to give you more control on the Single player side of things
17:47 < Warrior> RAISE HAND Then can you do that (give more control to us in single player) striaght away?
17:47 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Cal: Free content may also be mean more reasons for players to buy the game and stay on the online offer
17:48 < PhilippeCitiesXL> RippleJet: We will have some criterias: technical & editorial (no porn or other content the like )
17:48 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Warrior: no we cannot because of the Online part
17:48 < PhilippeCitiesXL> The same buildings are used on both sides of the game
17:49 -!- plfd648_pat [i=44bfa349@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-52bb9433fb644a8c] has joined #sc4d
17:49 -!- freedo50 [i=56a0e07c@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-2ce111a3f22e4996] has joined #sc4d
17:49 < freedo50> hey
17:49 < Glenni> RAISE HAND: You will, eventually, and that's the worriying part, it's not that big of an issue for SC4 for istance, as we can somewhat survive on our own, without support from EA any more. But thew difference here is that in order  to release custom content, the building model does first have to be brough to you, and when you are not here any more for whatever reason other projects, or even bankrubtcy, who will do the modding
17:49 < callagrafx> RAISE HAND true, but if you only want models, you'll find the custom content offering slim as there are only a few of us with a) 3DSMax and b) the expertise to create low poly models.
17:49 < PhilippeCitiesXL> hi freedo50
17:49 < RippleJet> RAISE HAND Hi Fred :9
17:49 < RippleJet>
17:50 < barbyw> RAISE HAND Hi Fred
17:50 < Warrior> RAISE HAND You said you could give us more control over the Single player side of things if all doesn't work
17:50 < Warrior> RAISE HAND Hi Fred
17:50 < jeronij> Hola Fred
17:50 < Glenni> RAISE HAND: you really should try splitting the online part off from multiplayer somehow
17:51 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Glenni: we should know quite soon if the whole thing won't work at all: and if so, for us, it's a matter of a few weeks of work to remove all the Online part which would prevent players to get full custom conrol on thigns
17:51 < zero7> RAISE HAND Just separate building install directories.  Online and offline.
17:52 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Cal: We don't necessarly want models: we will provide buildings over time ourselves! We just know that some of you want to participate on creating custom buildings and we would like to consider it as part of our art pipeline
17:52 < Warrior> RAISE HAND But then Zero (Sorry forgot your name) some people might move buildings from one directory to the other
17:52 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Exaclty
17:52 < PhilippeCitiesXL> That's not obvious really
17:52 < Glenni> simple
17:52 < Glenni> block all custom content on the online one
17:52 < Glenni> there are numerous games where this works
17:52 < PhilippeCitiesXL> But you would have to provide a way to differenciate them
17:53 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Look at it this way:
17:53 < callagrafx> RAISE HAND Glenni no, as the online game would probably be more interesting....I'm thinking Trackmania
17:53 < PhilippeCitiesXL> By promoting custom content ourselves in the game, we get everyone happy:
17:53 < PhilippeCitiesXL> 1. We get player happy with more content
17:53 < Warrior> RAISE HAND Are cities transferable from single player to online? So I can start a city in Single player and thn deicde to go online with the city?
17:53 < PhilippeCitiesXL> 2. We get custom content makers happy as they can see it in the game
17:54 < PhilippeCitiesXL> 3. We get ourselves happy because we are providing some more content and additional features to players which should result with better results
17:54 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Warrior: no they aren't
17:54 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Warrior: No cheating
17:54 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Warrior: In Solo mode, you can accelerate time while not in the Planet Offer
17:55 < PhilippeCitiesXL> If you could upload a solo mode city, what would forbid you to accelerate time, get a lot of money and get online with it
17:55 < callagrafx> RAISE HAND In other words, we're providing the content, giving you longevity but we have no control over the modding and distribution of that content...what about IP?  grey area
17:55 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Cal: IP is another issue we would need to talk about
17:55 < Warrior> RAISE HAND Then could you make a file type that is only comaptible with single player mode and not mutliplayer will not recognize it?
17:55 < PhilippeCitiesXL> We would put your name as the author of the building
17:56 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Warrior: no, that's the same point: you would get people tweaking files and would have quickly some not authorized buildings in the online side
17:57 < Warrior> RAISE HAND I guess i would work similar to some BATers, who make the BATs and then pass them on to others who Lot them
17:57 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Cal: But you would lease your rights on distributing it to MC and Players to use it
17:57 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Warrior: basically ye
17:57 < Glenni> RAISE HAND: it sounds tedious, there's no guarantee that you will stop caring about the CXL fanbase over time, it would be better off iff we were free to mod the game as we see fit within certain boundaries as in sc4
17:58 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Glenni: what do you have in mind?
17:58 < callagrafx> RAISE HAND Or after a certain timescale (BAT and LE weren't released until after RH)
17:59 < PhilippeCitiesXL> cal: we would release as soon as we could editors for you to play with
17:59 < Glenni> RAISE HAND: I can tell already that this Upload model > You mod > you upload it back again is not going to work in the long run.  Such systems barely ever work and grow old after a few months, at most a year.
17:59 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Glenni: We will do it for our own buildings
17:59 < PhilippeCitiesXL> We will deliver consistently new buildings to players
18:00 < PhilippeCitiesXL> The same way you do with SC4
18:00 < callagrafx> RAISE HAND Not to mention a large proportion of the current SC community are modders and LOTers...3D modelling is a skill not everyone possesses (pink box anyone?)
18:00 < Glenni> RAISE HAND: i thought you said you were going to restrict what WE could make too? As in we could only do the models themself?
18:00 < PhilippeCitiesXL> cal: true but modding isn't the subject
18:00 < barbyw> RAISE HAND: if you are going to upload new buildings will they be free or paid for?
18:00 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Topic is Custom Content and CITIES XL
18:00 < RippleJet> RAISE HAND For that to work in the long run, I guess you will be charging for the new buildings as well... if you do that, would custom building creators get a share of that?
18:01 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Barb: I can't tell right now or I would have to kill you
18:01 < PhilippeCitiesXL> RippleJet: that was actually my question:
18:01 < callagrafx> RAISE HAND Modding and LOTing are custom content.  We re-use buildings and resources on a daily basis
18:01 < Warrior> RAISE HAND I am just thankful the MC actually care about the quality in the online game some game designers wouldn't care what was used online
18:01 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Would you like to make revenue out of buildings you would produce for players?
18:01 < Glenni> RAISE HAND: Uh, modding,= custom content, ring a bell? it's as much as part of custom content as a new 3d model is, phillipe. Modding is part of creating custom content for billions of other games.
18:01 < zero7> RAISE HAND  In terms of custome content modding is very much an issue - without modding you don't get boundaries pushed and new inspiration for model makers.
18:01 < PhilippeCitiesXL> ok guys
18:02 -!- mode/#sc4d [+o JoeST] by ChanServ
18:02 < RippleJet> RAISE HAND Since I'm only a modder, not a batter, that wouldn't help me
18:02 < PhilippeCitiesXL> So, I made a mistake: I'm not native english
18:02 < Warrior> RAISE HAND I Would especailly like to know about transit networks and if we can make our own?
18:02 < Glenni> take the nam
18:02 < PhilippeCitiesXL> I meant Adding Custom Assets to CITIES XL
18:02 < Glenni> RAISE HAND: that is a combination of extensive modding as well as many custom models brought along.
18:02 -!- ChanServ changed the topic of #sc4d to: Custom Content in CitiesXL
18:02 < callagrafx> RAISE HAND No I would not like to make a revenue.  I do stuff for free so people can enjoy themselves.  Not everyone is over 18 or has a credit card
18:03 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Guys, you have to quit the SC4 mind
18:03 < PhilippeCitiesXL> really
18:03 < Warrior> RAISE HAND Will the NAM be possible in CXL?
18:03 < Glenni> RAISE HAND: it's not just SC4, phillipe, i can name numerous games that have many similar mods
18:03 < plfd648_pat> RAISE HAND:  but that is why we love the game so much cause we give out of free will
18:03 < PhilippeCitiesXL> With CITIES XL, MC wants to listen to players and tweak the game so that it reflects what should be the game
18:03 < PhilippeCitiesXL> It's all about interactions
18:03 < barbyw> RAISE HAND: so your term Custom Assets is basically just buildings?
18:04 < Glenni> RAISE HAND: extensive mods that combine new features added to the game in addition to models brought a long.
18:04 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Buildings for now, but we may look at other assets such as furnitures
18:04 < Warrior> RAISE HAND so we can not get the same enjoyment of modding out of CXL than SC4?
18:04 < callagrafx> RAISE HAND?  Why?  it's been a huge success model.  If Maxis had made 5 the way people wanted it, this conversation would not be happening to be honest
18:04 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Guys, Modding was the solution for you all to tweak a game that was abandonned by its developer
18:04 <@JoeST> RAISE HAND if the community ends up eventualy modifying the game in a way that is benificial to the game but a way that is not easily integrated into the old upload-mod-download cycle will you compensate?
18:05 < Glenni> RAISE HAND: modding is a an extensive part in many other games that are yet to be abandoned by their devs too...
18:05 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Our goal is to stay long term with CITIES XL (remember the online part) and therefore, we will make the changes that are needed to preserve the fun in the game
18:05 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Glenni: Does anyone mod MMORPGs? No, they mod the interface
18:05 < Warrior> RAISE HAND But modding is also 100x more fun (Which is what a game is for)  then giving suggestions to the game developer and it only turning out half of what you wanted
18:06 < barbyw> RAISE HAND: I think you need something stronger than coffee, Philippe.
18:06 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Modding is not a game!
18:06 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Barb
18:06 < RippleJet> RAISE HAND Without modding SC4 would have been dead today
18:06 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Yes, because Maxis hasn't done anything after RH
18:06 < callagrafx> RAISE  HAND To some it is...some like playing with lego, others with an abacus
18:06 < Glenni> RAISE HAND Let me list up a good number of extensive mods for games, adding hundreds of new features.  Half life > Garry's Mod,  GTA San Andreas > GTA Berlin > GTA San Andreas Multiplayer.  STALKER > Oblivionlost  These are mods for games that are still very much alive.
18:06 < PhilippeCitiesXL> If They would have been doing the NAM for SC4, the Tteam would be dead
18:07 < callagrafx> RAISE HAND They did...Simcities Societies :-(
18:07 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Glenni: you are quoting games that have no Persistent side
18:07 < Glenni> Garry's Mod is an online Mod...
18:07 < PhilippeCitiesXL> You should compare CITIES XL to MMOs, not single player game
18:07 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Online is different that MMO
18:08 < PhilippeCitiesXL> You miss the persistency
18:08 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Virtual worlds
18:08 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Cal: come on! don't compare ...
18:08 < callagrafx> RAISE HAND What about The Sims?  People can make their own content for that and it's the biggest game of all time and they don't have to submit it to the development team
18:09 < callagrafx> RAISE HAND No comparison.  They went from a simulator to a cartoon
18:09 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Cal, yes, but you don't have players interacting with each other in an online universe
18:09 < PhilippeCitiesXL> You could compare that side to Second Life:
18:09 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Look at what they did:
18:09 < PhilippeCitiesXL> You can do whatever you want on it
18:09 <@JoeST> RAISE HAND, so is there any possibility that in the future you would release the rights to modding and distrobution to a group/team of prolific creators?
18:09 < PhilippeCitiesXL> But at the end, you don't get any fun, because that's just that: a virtual world with no gameplay
18:10 < Glenni> RAISE HAND: What is so great about MMOs anyway? They are massively overated features  to a game
18:10 < Warrior> RAISE HAND As amazing as game creators are they cant think and do everything
18:10 < PhilippeCitiesXL> JoeST: that is not in our aim right now, but that could be a direction... We would have to investigate
18:10 < Glenni> RAISE A) they are always full of trolling people up to no good. B) Just to have some silly online feature you have removed the chance of having a very moddable game.
18:10 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Glenni: we do believe the MMO side in CITIES XL will bring a lot of fun
18:11 < Warrior> RAISE HAND Philippe The Online side will bring a load of fun, and I can see where MC are coming from about the quality for online play.
18:11 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Glenni: Going on the MMO side of things, we are making a bet, that's true but we really do believe on it. It brings replayability and real fun.
18:12 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Warrior: thanks for the support.
18:12 < Warrior> RAISE HAND but the MMO shouldn't take away what we can do with the single player, they should really be 2 seperate things
18:12 < Glenni> RAISE HAND: idea of fun for who? 8 year olds? casual gamers? Honestly MMO's are part of what is ruining the game industry, it is all casualising games, and are aimed for the stupid masses.
18:12 < PhilippeCitiesXL> warrior: yes, we don't want to alienate players that want to play the Solo mode
18:12 < zero7> RAISE HAND Agree with Warrior on that.  Online by it's nature has to have limitations.
18:13 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Glenni: you don't even know what we are planning to do on CITIES XL...
18:13 < jeronij> interacting with other players will attract only a % of the potential players. interacting with the game will attract all of them
18:13 < callagrafx> RAISE HAND For how long?  Most games have a shelf life because either a) you complete them or b) you bore of them. Going online may increase the longevity for a while but there will come a time when b) overtakes the novelty
18:13 < PhilippeCitiesXL> The main idea is to bring a Real City builder game with an Online mode for players to interact between each other.
18:14 < PhilippeCitiesXL> jeronij, you are right
18:14 < zero7> RAISE HAND I like the idea of beng able to 'wander about' in someone elses city.  But I also like the idea that I can create content just for my own use.
18:14 < callagrafx> RAISE HAND This is the issue...people don't want a city game, they want a city simulator
18:14 < zero7> spot on cal
18:14 < PhilippeCitiesXL> cal: That's where we do bring new things: we'll animate the game online.... We'll bring new content, we'll organize online events, competitions, etc...
18:14 < Warrior> RAISE HAND In all there needs to be the same kind of modding for single player as in SC4 while still having the online mode as great quality
18:14 < PhilippeCitiesXL> But we'll also bring NEW features over time to the core game
18:15 < PhilippeCitiesXL> not talking about the GEMs that are also another way to find new replayability to the core game
18:15 < PhilippeCitiesXL> ok cal! We are making a City Builder GAME!!!!
18:15 < PhilippeCitiesXL> That's our goal really
18:16 < RippleJet> RAISE HAND What's in the simulator then?
18:16 < Warrior> RAISE HAND If you let us do what we want with the single player while having the control over the online play.
18:16 < Glenni> RAISE HAND: i'm pretty sure most people woudl prefer to build their dream city, and not walk arround speaking to premature kids who either "typ liek diz" or "r173 l13k dizz"
18:16 < Warrior> RAISE HAND CXL will be  massive hit
18:16 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Warrior: that's really not obvious from a technical stand point
18:16 < callagrafx> RAISE HAND LOL @ Glenni
18:17 < Glenni> RAISE HAND And don't even get me started on the mic spammers
18:17 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Glenni: you are limitating your views on the onlinde side really
18:17 < PhilippeCitiesXL> ok guys
18:17 < PhilippeCitiesXL> I need to put an end to this discussion now
18:17 <@JoeST> ol
18:18 < PhilippeCitiesXL> We have been chatting for almost 1hour and 1/2
18:18 < jeronij> thanks for your time Phillipe
18:18 < Glenni> RAISE HAND or the random yoofs that will write "One day there was a girl, she was killed by a napkin if you don't send this to 56 people within 5 hours you will get an angry chainletter"
18:18 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Could we try to sum up a bit things?
18:18  * JoeST can PM/email anyone the logfile/transcript
18:18 < callagrafx> RAISE HAND really...Indeed, thank you
18:18 < jeronij> it's been a very instructive conversation 
18:18 < barbyw> RAISE hAND: thank for the time, Philippe. I think you deserve a large glass of red wine
18:18 < callagrafx> RAISE HAND Joe, I think it should be posted in the SC4D thread
18:18 -!- Ennedi [i=51a8d618@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-0b61872179e8dc97] has joined #sc4d
18:19 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Actually, i'm about to have one Barb: we have a small "pot" outside with the rest of the team
18:19 < PhilippeCitiesXL> We are getting some beers and cheers
18:19 < jeronij> Phillipe ->yes please, sum up briefly please
18:19 < barbyw> RAISE HAND: Salut
18:19 < zero7> RAISE HAND  Thanks Philippe.  Gives us more of an idea of what to expect.
18:19 < Warrior> Thanks very much Phillipe, if I had been you I would have left this converstion a while ago, I really do admire you and MC
18:19 < RippleJet> RAISE HAND Thank you Philippe! Maybe there's reason to continue another time? Enjoy the beer!"
18:19 < callagrafx> RAISE HAND and what not to
18:19 < plfd648_pat> RAISE HAND thank you Philippe for your Time and devotion to us SC4 players
18:19 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Guys, I do'nt think this conversation is over
18:19 <@JoeST> RAISE HAND Thanks for coming Philippe
18:20 < PhilippeCitiesXL> There is still a lot of things to sove
18:20 < PhilippeCitiesXL> solve
18:20 < PhilippeCitiesXL> and we are open minded
18:20 < Warrior> RAISE HAND End of the chapter but not the book?
18:20 < plfd648_pat> OK lets solve it then here here!!!
18:20 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Exactly Warrior
18:20 <@JoeST> hey Ennedi and Pat
18:20 < plfd648_pat> Hi Joe!!!
18:20 < callagrafx> RAISE HAND indeed...plenty of time, we want it right, not rushed
18:21 < PhilippeCitiesXL> Ok, guys, talk to you soon, and I'll see you in the SC4devotion forums
18:21 < Warrior> RAISE HAND Absolutely right Cal
18:21  * JoeST descreens and retrieves the log
18:21 < PhilippeCitiesXL> thanks for the chat

[Yoder7652]

thanks for the log RJ....this has been most illuminating.
As a batter, I'm not sure I like the idea of making 4 different models of the same structure to meet the poly requirements?

[BarbyW]

As a lot technician I'm not sure I like the ideaof you guys handing over your models to get theminto the game. I shall be unemployed

[callagrafx]

As a BATer, what I find most disturbing is that Monte Cristo want to be the sole distributor of custom content, with "leased" IP rights, and not give us any facility to mod or create LOTs.  Problem for me is what control do I have if I decide to pull my stuff from the public domain?  None, basically.  My take on the session was they want custom content, they want us to create it (for free) and then take it away to do what they like with it...there's even the hint that they'd be charging for it, either as an online subscription or per item.

However good the game may turn out to be, unless content created by 3rd parties is openly distributable and free from charges, here's one BATer who will not provide content.

[dasilva]

callgrafx, that was the purpose of this discussion. We are not getting into any direction now but talking with you all about it.

The questions raised by me, especially about paid custom content was to define which directions people that spend their time making valuable custom content are willing to take. We now know that you are not seeking for any return on cash from players to access custom content. 

As for the fact of being the sole distributor, it brings one constraint but it would also provide players with two advantages which are the fact that we would manage for them the fact of downloading and installing custom content on their CITIES XL installation and they wouldn't have any issues on placing the content on the wrong directory or taking care of dependencies as they would be defined by us.

You mentioned the fact that you would want to be able to pull your stuff from the public domain... May I ask you why you would? 

[callagrafx]

callgrafx, that was the purpose of this discussion. We are not getting into any direction now but talking with you all about it.

I have to be blunt about this point...we heard exactly the same from Tilted Mill about SC:S and they too were full of "we're listening" comments, but the game was already developed and into Beta, so any "suggestions" were ignored as they already had direction, as you must have too at this stage.

The questions raised by me, especially about paid custom content was to define which directions people that spend their time making valuable custom content are willing to take. We now know that you are not seeking for any return on cash from players to access custom content. 

You should already know that from the way we manage ourselves with SC4 content.  Even if it weren't part of the EULA, people would still do it for free.  It's not just us....look at Mozilla, OpenOffice and Wikipedia.

As for the fact of being the sole distributor, it brings one constraint but it would also provide players with two advantages which are the fact that we would manage for them the fact of downloading and installing custom content on their CITIES XL installation and they wouldn't have any issues on placing the content on the wrong directory or taking care of dependencies as they would be defined by us.

Until such time as revenues dry up from sales and you have to create a new product to pay the developers who take our custom content and put it into your game.  You also may be aware that this community has some exceptional talent and I'm sure we could figure out where to place files on a hard drive    And this community is well versed in the art of dependencies, I can assure you 

You mentioned the fact that you would want to be able to pull your stuff from the public domain... May I ask you why you would? 

I'm not saying I would, I am simply concerned that my rights as an author are wholly protected and that you do not profit from my work I create for free.  In the event you (or your FD) decide you need to fund the custom content process & website either through subscripton or any other method, I would object to my work being used in this way.  I hope you understand that this is not through malice or a wish to be recompensed, but merely that I create content for my own enjoyment (btw, I 3D model professionally) and share it freely with anyone who wants it.  I do not charge for my free time, why should you?

I know this sounds a little beligerent...but I speak my mind and if I have concerns, I voice them.  I do appreciate that you do not have to engage this community in any way to develop your product and that you could quite easily ignore us all and still release, but you should at least consider opening the game up as fully as Maxis did....SC4 Deluxe was still in the bestselling lists this time last year, 4 years after it's release and it's because they opened the file formats up.

[BarbyW]

As for the fact of being the sole distributor, it brings one constraint but it would also provide players with two advantages which are the fact that we would manage for them the fact of downloading and installing custom content on their CITIES XL installation and they wouldn't have any issues on placing the content on the wrong directory or taking care of dependencies as they would be defined by us.

This is exactly how EA started with the official exchange as they take the files that are uploaded and all dependencies and download what they think a user needs. Unfortunately as they have become less and less interested in the exhange it has become a place for plagiarised work and outdated dependencies. I know you will reply that you do not intend your "exchange" to be abandoned but then I think EA/Maxis would have also said that 4 years ago.

[zero7]

I found the discussion the other day disappointing.  So much of what I have seen on the CXL website has given me cause for optimism that here was a worthy successor to SC4.  The graphics are superb, the road network makes the NAM look like an antique (even though you've been very quiet on train, trams etc.), the economic model sounds like a big step forward.  The missing piece of the jigsaw was custom content - match SC4 and CXL becomes the new gold standard.  But it seems MC just can't let go ... the corporate need for control has reared its ugly head.

The problem with SCS is slightly different from the one I perceive happening with CXL.

In the case of SCS they made a very stupid decision - probably to save development time - of using a third party product to manage game objects leaving content creators with no ability to add new models due to licensing issues, but able to reskin existing ones.

Where Tilted Mill got it right was that the control of those objects within the game is very, very open.  To that extent TM kept their promises.


From the discussion the other day CXL seem to have made an equal and opposite mistake.  We can create models, but have no control over the configuration of them as game objects.  I understand the need to prevent cheating in the online game, but to prevent us having control of off-line content is a sledgehammer to crack a nut.  A much smarter solution is required.

If every model needs to be handed over to Monte Cristo to make it functional in the game you have a major bottleneck (you really need to see the rate of release of custom content in SC4 through 2004 and 2005 to appreciate just how much of one). 

Also MC have not allowed for the fact that people will want to:

a) Practice.  That means making objects in private until they are of releasable quality
b) Make game objects for their own use to make their cities unique or just because they are not interested in making it available for release.
c) Bend the rules.  A lot of what is great in SC4 custom content comes from people twisting what is there into new forms, abusing the functions present in the game engine to deliver new possibilities - it is the modders art.  To do that they need to be free to experiment on their own machine.
d) Reuse models for other purposes - an industrial building used as residential; a house reused as a farmhouse; an office building used as a library. 


The bottom line is this - without the freedom to make a model and use it locally without intervention from outside, many (probably most) of those heavily involved in custom content production will not be interested - particularly the modders for whom the game will hold no interest at all (except maybe to decode the file formats and give us the freedom to manipulate the game objects - in which case you've lost control AND goodwill)

I hope Monte Cristo will take another look at how SC4 has maintained the loyalty of fans and enjoyed such longevity and realise that they have to stop trying to retain so much control.   SC4's crown is there for the taking; it just takes a little bravery.

[dedgren]

From a purely selfish standpoint, Phillippe, I thought through this morning based on the information you provided during the discussion how much of 3RR and the ancillary content that's originated there I could have done had CXL and not SC4 been the game in question 30 months ago.

I had to conclude: not much.

My 2c worth is that Monte Cristo would still find plenty of takers for its "captive audience" business model, even in spite of the "pay to play" aspect.  With all due respect, I see MC's unwillingness to allow, much less promote a vigorous independent custom content user community as approaching a finger in the eye to those folks.  What does your company have to lose?  The existence of that community has not cost EA a dime with respect to SC4- far from it, EA has reaped the substantial benefit of a having a game that otherwise would have played out its product life cycle in the normal less than two years seeing that cycle extended to five years, and likely far beyond.

I share what is an apparent growing sense of disappointment over MC's course in developing CXL.  When Tilted Mill ignored the freely given wise advice of the genre's dedicated fanbase, a group who also happened to be a potential major market for its product - well, sometimes mistakes are made.  The same thing, though, appears to be happening again.  A year from now, I suppose, we'll look at the sales stats and see.

Thank you, in any event, for hearing us out.


David

[Heblem]

For online:
Take a look to http://www.igzones.com/, this is a FREE online site where up to 1,000 players plays different games such Age of Empires, I usually play there for fun, in case of Age of Empires we are allowed to create our custom maps and play them but we can't cheat in game, what could be interesting with CXL that allows us to create our own scenario where we going to build or whatever our city...

For "solo" playing...
I suggest at this case allows us to modify create anything we have in mid, we have two options:

-City Building: Following rules, objectives etc

-City Simulator: Somewhat to cheat!.... allow us to creatively build the city as we want without restrictions, its like to pait...

Of course in "solo" I hope to include custom content and modify the game as you want, something that you can't do in online playing... if these options were available i could pay 100 dollars for it...

Just suggestions, i hope that helps to MC for develop their game...

[metasmurf]

My two cents after reading the chat log is that the aspect of maintaining control will be a bit more than you can chew. It will take massive resources to make it work in practice, and without charging for the custom content I honestly have no idea how you will make ends meet. Why waste resources on something that we are willing to do for free?

What you guys should be concentrating on is to build a solid, bug free and open game. As for the online feature, why not release it later as an expansion? That will leave you with plenty of time to solve the issues concerning limitations for online gameplay. In addition, it will give you time to build up a fanbase for the game.

[emilin]

Throwing my hat into the ring aswell:

I see a lot of promise in CXL (as apposed to SCS, that I really don't see the point of). I will most likely buy a copy and try it out, no matter what changes are implemented as a result of discussions as these. So, cheers, you get a few of my bucks anyway you cut it.

Now, the real issue for me is this: will I still be playing CXL five years after it's release (giving MC the opportunity to cash in on expansion sets, modules and extras)? Hmmm... now that depends on what the game can and cannot be used for. The sheer diversity of SC4 is the main reason for its' loyal fan base. I don't think many of us would be interested in simply running a city simulation game for hours at a time, day in and day out.

Personally, I don't really "play" SC4 anymore. I use it as a miniature model workshop. I think the same goes for a lot of us (badsim, rooker, dedgren, etc). Yet others are more interested in developing train skins, batting buildings, making maps, etc. etc. upto the people that spend most of their time developing software for the making of custom content (as terraformer, reader, sc4tool, etc).

Now, all you have to do to make this happen is: open the game files for us. It's pretty much as easy as that. And that is - most likely - the difference between selling copies when CXL is released and two years down the line, and still selling copies in 2015. I'm no bussiness analysist, but I do suggest you take those profit calculations seriously.

But, I'm pretty confident that this will be a good simulation game, no matter which path you should chose to go. This is just an idea of what would make ME exchange SC4 for CXL...

[Diggis]

One thing I think you (MC) may have overlooked is that a lot of people here LIKE tinkering under the hood. The NAM team is largely comprised of people who saw room for improvement in the networks and started pushing the limits to make them better.  It's the challenge that drives them, not the game itself.  I've spent countless hours in the last 4 or so months developing custom content of some sort or another, yet hardly have time to play the game... and you know what, I still have fun.

[Andreas]

Agreed. It's probably a minority who really likes to dig deep in the game files, but exactly this minority is the one that keeps the game up to date. SimCity 4 wouldn't be that popular if there wasn't stuff like the Network Addon Mod, the Rural Highways, the Colossus Addon Mod, and other mods that modify in-game stuff to quite some extent. I can understand the concerns regarding unbalanced building stats - we were (and are) facing the very same problem with SimCity 4, and unfortunately, many of the flaws are a product of an unbalanced Maxis tool. The Plugin Manager that EA released for creating custom files is very basic, and it doesn't take into account the actual shape of the building, so most stats that are assigned to a lot are way over the top.

Personally, I think that the dedicated custom content creators are eager to produce balanced items, and by providing the proper tools that will produce those you will minimize the need of scrutineering those items. It's been more than five years since SimCity 4 was released, and we're still discovering new things within the game engine, and needless to say, we could have done those things earlier if Maxis provided us with the proper tools and information in the first place. Don't underestimate the community; after all, it was us who keep holding up the flag for a game like SimCity 4 - without being paid, just for the fun we have in both playing and developing new stuff for the game.

[mightygoose]

hmm, i think a third party modding engine is now at the top of the CXL custom content creation shopping list... im just glad we have daeley and ripplejet around

[dasilva]

Hi Diggis,

We didn't overlooked it: you are part of the people we call "gardeners" because what most of you like is the end result and filling of the cities and not actually playing the game. You currently use SC4 as a playground where you place your stuff (buildings, canals, transport networks,etc..) so that it looks like a real city the same as when I was a kid I used to create some wood based landscapes and place my trains, stations, rails and the like  

Now, CITIES XL will be a city builder game and, as I already stated in a PM I sent recently, we would like to join custom content makers into Monte Cristo continuous efforts (understand after release) to improve the game because we know there are a lot of talented people in this community and we feel like all together we could provide players with great content.

However, and this was the purpose of the online chat we had, we have some technical and artistic issues that need to be solved. We wanted to share with you these issues so that:
1. First, you understand where we stand as far as custom content is concerned,
2. You see the differences between creating custom content for SC4 and CITIES XL
3. we can state our position and clarify some premade opinions about Monte Cristo as a company.

It's a difficult message to communicate: "We are looking to include Custom Content makers into CITIES XL discussions"
My first analysis is that most of you are NOT used to have the opportunity to talk with a game studio that is actually really listening and sharing suggestions, opinions and positive or negative criticism.
And therefore, with most reasons, you may have some doubts and fears on our approach. This chat we had the other day is also meant to provide you the first clues of our honnesty to the path of building trust in our relationship.  

Do not misunderstand me, I cannot predict that the process I started with you now will have the expected win/win successful result but at least, I would have tried and that's already a step forward.  
Moreover, as an SC4 old timer, I also wanted to take the opportunity to talk with you all about custom content which, I may repeat myself, brought to me personally a lot of extended hours of gameplay around SC4. Thanks again  

I will be quite busy in the coming weeks so I will be following this thread every two days but still answer whenever required  

Cheers

[Jonathan]

The most obvious way to get around this problem is to have separate plugins for MP and SP. That way the control needed for MP is there, but we have free reign over SP.

Also like Phillippe has said, modding was an alternative to an active game developer, with Monte Cristo around there will be no need for modding. But this is not as fun for the modders, well CXL isn't there to be modded it's there to be played. And that is coming from someone who only mods and plays very rarely.

CXL is not the next in the Simcity series, it is a new game. It's meant/should to be different.

Yes custom content creators in the community do want to create fair content (most of the time). But those not in communities, may create Custom Content that is not fair, and then when they use it online, people will be unhappy.

In SP some people like cheating because it removes an element of the game they don't like to play. I have done this when I can't be bothered to lay all the water pipes and power poles.

Jonathan

[dasilva]

But what if we were providing players with a totally "no city cash" mode? You wouldn't need anymore these $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Fountains anymore, would you?