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Question on New/Existing Regions, Eternal Commuters, and Industrial Demand

Started by Landwalker, January 09, 2008, 10:12:49 AM

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Landwalker

So, I finally got around to downloading/installing the CAM, and have seen a lot of remarks in a lot of places about it screwing up one's existing regions.  I have a couple of questions about this that I wasn't able to find clear answers to:

1) Does a "New Region" necessarily have to be a freshly rendered one?  Would a "stock" region (like New York or San Francisco) that is blank upon installation of the program qualify as a "New Region"?

2) Relatedly, some of the regions that come with the game already have cities in them (like Berlin and London).  Is there any way to cause these regions to revert to "New"?  Does simply obliterating the existing cities, then doing a save/exit to region, solve this problem?

3) It is possible to have eternal commuters traveling only between two adjacent regions?


Unrelated to the question of New/Existing regions (except by tangent) is a question I have on workforce, demand, and the like.  As a precursory note, I'm following along with soldyne's "Making Money the Easy Way" tutorial thread on Simtropolis.  That said, I'll start it off with a few pictures:


Here we have the little slice of the region I'm working on.  I'm using the pre-made Fairview region, which begins empty.  There are currently just the two cities, Suburbia and Industria.


The census report for Industria.  As you might expect, Industria is wholly dedicated to industry and power production.


Industria itself, as it stands.  There is a power connection to Suburbia, as well as a road connection (via avenue).


The Suburbia census report.  Suburbia holds only residential and commercial zones.


And Suburbia, the town.

So, here's the problem I'm facing.  As you can see from the census reports, there are currently about 2,000 unemployed people living in Suburbia (and, thus, in the region at large).  The demand for industry is very high in both cities.  However, I'm having a lot of trouble getting industry to build.  You can see in Industria that there are a lot of blank, zoned spaces.  Yes, they are partitioned; however, all the developed spaces in Industria are also partitioned, so I know that industry can develop on partitions of those sizes.  Problem is, they aren't, despite the demand.

So, essentially, here lies my question:  What's going on?

Any and all help would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers.

RippleJet

Quote from: Landwalker on January 09, 2008, 10:12:49 AM
1) Does a "New Region" necessarily have to be a freshly rendered one?  Would a "stock" region (like New York or San Francisco) that is blank upon installation of the program qualify as a "New Region"?

It won't hurt to try... ::)
They would probably work pretty well with CAM though! :thumbsup:


Quote from: Landwalker on January 09, 2008, 10:12:49 AM
2) Relatedly, some of the regions that come with the game already have cities in them (like Berlin and London).  Is there any way to cause these regions to revert to "New"?  Does simply obliterating the existing cities, then doing a save/exit to region, solve this problem?

Since those stock regions only hold low stage buildings, you should be able to play them with CAM.
However, you will notice that the cities will spread out more than they would without the CAM.

Especially if there already are some stage 4-6 buildings, the further need for them will be non-existent.
For a long time ahead you would only be seeing stages 1-3 grow.


Quote from: Landwalker on January 09, 2008, 10:12:49 AM
3) It is possible to have eternal commuters traveling only between two adjacent regions?

Not eternal commuters in commute circles, but yes, if you are building specialized cities like in your example, you will see commuters coming in from elsewhere in SimNation.
This is the game's way of spuring the growth of commercials and industrials after you've started to connect your neighbouring cities.

They will eventually be compensated by commuters going out from your cities into SimNation...
You can already notice this in Industria with 1,182 commercial commuters going out, even if nobody is living in Industria.

You can also see that both your cities have vacant jobs within the city borders (267 in Suburbia and 284 in Industria).
In other words, the unemployed people are all living elsewhere in SimNation and will only increase the need for jobs in your cities.


Quote from: Landwalker on January 09, 2008, 10:12:49 AM
So, here's the problem I'm facing.  As you can see from the census reports, there are currently about 2,000 unemployed people living in Suburbia (and, thus, in the region at large).  The demand for industry is very high in both cities.  However, I'm having a lot of trouble getting industry to build.  You can see in Industria that there are a lot of blank, zoned spaces.  Yes, they are partitioned; however, all the developed spaces in Industria are also partitioned, so I know that industry can develop on partitions of those sizes.  Problem is, they aren't, despite the demand.

So, essentially, here lies my question:  What's going on?

Nothing abnormal is really going on.
You might want to zone more industrial zones in Industria though.
Maybe there's a need for a higher growth stage of industries and maybe they don't fit into your parcels...

You could also start an agricultural city to create even more low wealth industrial jobs.
The demand for them is skyrocketing in Suburbia. ;)

Landwalker

Quote from: RippleJet on January 09, 2008, 12:27:58 PM
Not eternal commuters in commute circles, but yes, if you are building specialized cities like in your example, you will see commuters coming in from elsewhere in SimNation.
This is the game's way of spuring the growth of commercials and industrials after you've started to connect your neighbouring cities.

They will eventually be compensated by commuters going out from your cities into SimNation...
You can already notice this in Industria with 1,182 commercial commuters going out, even if nobody is living in Industria.

You can also see that both your cities have vacant jobs within the city borders (267 in Suburbia and 284 in Industria).
In other words, the unemployed people are all living elsewhere in SimNation and will only increase the need for jobs in your cities.

Ah, I see it now.  That definitely makes a lot more sense.  Those tricky SimNationals...  I had been wondering what in the world was going on with those 1,182 commercial commuters from Industria.  It's good to know I hadn't stumbled into an eternal commute problem and that the game is actually doing what it's supposed to be doing.   :P


QuoteNothing abnormal is really going on.
You might want to zone more industrial zones in Industria though.
Maybe there's a need for a higher growth stage of industries and maybe they don't fit into your parcels...

You could also start an agricultural city to create even more low wealth industrial jobs.
The demand for them is skyrocketing in Suburbia. ;)

I took a stab at making more industrial zones, and had a little success.  Then I hooked the whole city up to a water system and the industries (mostly dirty factories, of course, but Suburbia's education hasn't really gotten going yet, so manufacturing is still in its infancy) finally starting shooting up all over the place, so much so that I had to build a second power plant to support them all.  *Facepalm*

I'll have to look into kicking up a farming "city", probably to the north somewhere, and see how that impacts Suburbia.  So far, though, now that I finally got Industria to start popping, Suburbia is definitely looking healthier.  Might even be time to break out the school system and start working up to manufacturing and decent commercial lots.

*grumble stupid water making me feel like a fool grumble*

Cheers.

Landwalker

Okay, perhaps I'm stupid, but I clearly can simply not figure something out here.

Brand new, just-rendered region based on Buffalo, NY (and the surrounding environs).  I'm currently working with two cities using a similar model, on a larger scale and without the instruction-following, of the Making Money thread mentioned in my first post, with the city of Allerton currently playing the role of light-density suburb and Pittsfield the role of industrial district (now with added farms!).  I've reached a point where development of both cities is stagnating--I can't get people to move into Allerton, and I can't get new industry to built in Pittsfield.  After poking around, I'm suspecting that the fact that, of the 37,220 people currently living in Allerton, 19,000 are at least 51 years old.  9,000 of those are 51-60, almost a quarter of the city's population.

That aside, the Census has been giving me some bizarre returns.  Since I can't do anything about the decrepit population except wait for them to die, I've instead turned to puzzling myself over why in the name of whatever I'm in this situation.  Here's the run-down:

First up, the Allerton Census Repository:

Currently there are about 2,200 vacant jobs in Allerton.  Bear in mind that Allerton is the only city in the region with residents at this point, then look at the regional job vacancies.  There are over 15,000 people out there in... nowhere (SimNation, I guess)... that are unemployed.  Questions:  Is this somehow preventing people from moving into Allerton?

Next, Pittsfield:


Here's where it start to get ridiculous.  Pittsfield's census indicates that there are about 21,000 jobs, total, in the city, which is fine.  But then it claims that there are 17,000 job vacancies, and I can tell just by going around and querying things that this is not true, as all industries are around 87-90% filled to capacity.  There are also fewer industrial jobs listed in the entire region than there are in Pittsfield, which obviously makes no sense.

Nonsense aside, there are obviously a lot of unemployed people in "SimNation".  For some reason, I can't get them to move into Allerton, despite having plenty of job vacancies.  I can't even get the citizens of Allerton to fill those vacancies (and commute is not a problem--traffic in the city is a non-issue almost everywhere, and nobody has a commute longer than Medium, even if they're driving from the western reaches of Allerton into Pittsfield via the highway).  At the same time, despite the high SimNational unemployment, industry in Pittsfield adamantly refuses to develop in any capacity.

Other questions:  Why is there no listed demand for Commercial Services (in case you were wondering, the RCI graph has huge demand for all three of them)?  How on Earth does all of Allerton have zero CS$ jobs?  (Just to make sure this wasn't a glitch, I scoured the city for CS$ lots... not a single one.)  Why do my Sims have a love affair with Commerical Office lots despite the large number of R$ residents and the complete absence of R$$$ residents?

Cheers, and sorry for my ignorance,
Walker

xxdita

Quote from: Landwalker on January 11, 2008, 07:36:34 PM
Here's where it start to get ridiculous.  Pittsfield's census indicates that there are about 21,000 jobs, total, in the city, which is fine.  But then it claims that there are 17,000 job vacancies, and I can tell just by going around and querying things that this is not true, as all industries are around 87-90% filled to capacity.  There are also fewer industrial jobs listed in the entire region than there are in Pittsfield, which obviously makes no sense.

A fix is in the works.  ;)

Quote from: Landwalker on January 11, 2008, 07:36:34 PM
Other questions:  Why is there no listed demand for Commercial Services (in case you were wondering, the RCI graph has huge demand for all three of them)?  How on Earth does all of Allerton have zero CS$ jobs?  (Just to make sure this wasn't a glitch, I scoured the city for CS$ lots... not a single one.)  Why do my Sims have a love affair with Commerical Office lots despite the large number of R$ residents and the complete absence of R$$$ residents?

There's also no Cap listing for CS. Have to wait for RippleJet to answer that one.
But do you have CAM_5%_R$$_Working_in_CS$.dat installed as well? This can spur growth for R$$ and CS$. If not, you can reinstall the CAM and select this option.

Quote from: Landwalker on January 11, 2008, 07:36:34 PM
Currently there are about 2,200 vacant jobs in Allerton.  Bear in mind that Allerton is the only city in the region with residents at this point, then look at the regional job vacancies.  There are over 15,000 people out there in... nowhere (SimNation, I guess)... that are unemployed.  Questions:  Is this somehow preventing people from moving into Allerton?

Hmmm... check your tax rates. For new cities, I always have to have taxes equal to or less than connected cities for any growth to develop.

Landwalker

Thanks for the reply, xxdita.  I do have the "5% Plugins" (all of them) installed, which may help explain the insane demand for CS$ (although not so much the fact that whenever the build anything, it's CS$$, or CS$ that quickly gets replaced with CO).  I don't think tax rates is a problem, because there's only those two cities--Dirty and Manufacturing taxes are very high in Allerton (to discourage their occurrence and to encourage High-Tech), but that's the only anomaly (everything else is 9% in both cities).

I've also stumbled across a serious problem in getting my new R$$$ residents to work.  Even though there are CS$$$ and CO$$$ (as well as a smattering of other) jobs right outside the R$$$ neighborhood, they seem incapable of finding them, and are apparently too stubborn to make the medium commute across the city to the High Text jobs.  Are my R$$$ workers being surpassed by R$$?

Cheers.

RippleJet

Quote from: Landwalker on January 11, 2008, 07:36:34 PM
Here's where it start to get ridiculous.  Pittsfield's census indicates that there are about 21,000 jobs, total, in the city, which is fine.  But then it claims that there are 17,000 job vacancies, and I can tell just by going around and querying things that this is not true, as all industries are around 87-90% filled to capacity.  There are also fewer industrial jobs listed in the entire region than there are in Pittsfield, which obviously makes no sense.

You have to make a difference between actual jobs and the capacity.

All figures reported in the Census Repository Facitlity are capacities, with one single exception, the residential population (37,220 inhabitants in Allerton).

All buildings have a nominal (maximum) capacity, but after a month that capacity is always falling due to desirability factors.
Thus, the 87-90% you're seeing is the real capacity of the buildings, compared to the maximum capacity.

There is actually no other way to find out the actually number of workers in each building, other that route querying them.
And I'm quite sure you will find several industries that do not have a single worker... ::)

The 17,037 vacant jobs in Pittsfield is quite correctly calculated:


Workforce in Pittsfield
+9,933
Industrial Capacity in Pittsfield
-21,060
Industrial Commuters going out
-1,376
   (Industrial Capacity seen in SimNation)
Commercial Commuters going out
-4,534
   (Commercial Capacity seen in SimNation)
-------
Workforce/job balance in Pittsfield   
-17,037

Landwalker

RippleJet:  Thanks for the reply.  However, I still don't understand why, if Pittsfield is operating so far below capacity (and has undeveloped zones to boot), residents of Allerton refuse to work there.  I also don't see why, given the number of job vacancies both in Pittsfield and Allerton, Allerton is having such a hard time developing its residential zones.  Lastly (I'm totally clueless today), I'm still struggling with the Commuters to SimNation issue:  Allerton has 14,595 industrial commuters to SimNation--given intercity connections, the only place they could be going is Pittsfield, but somehow Pittsfield has less than ten thousand industrial "imported commuters".  Also, given that all of Allerton's "exported commuters" are in the industrial field, how does Pittsfield manage to have four and a half thousand "exported commuters" in Commerce?  Finally, if there are so many job vacancies in Pittsfield (and, for that matter, Allerton), why don't any of those 30,000+ unemployed people in "SimNation" (which I'm getting by combining the city job vacancies of Pittsfield and Allerton, then subtracting the regional job vacancies (which, being a negative number, results in adding another 13,000) move in to fill them?

Short version:  I'm confused and baffled.

Cheers.

RippleJet

With the excellent help of xxdita we were making some thorough testing with the CAM today.
The regional workforce is indeed doubled with the CAM, and it shouldn't be so.

This can, especially in the case of playing with separate specialized cities (residential vs. industrial) have a significant impact.
It would be great if you could continue to play with your region and report if adding industrial jobs in Allerton would change the simulation.
You can always bulldoze the industries in Allerton at a later stage, once the simulator has gained momentum.


Quote from: Landwalker on January 12, 2008, 10:05:51 AM
Lastly (I'm totally clueless today), I'm still struggling with the Commuters to SimNation issue:  Allerton has 14,595 industrial commuters to SimNation--given intercity connections, the only place they could be going is Pittsfield, but somehow Pittsfield has less than ten thousand industrial "imported commuters".

Since the cities are played independently of each other, the number of commuters will never match.
And, you will always have commuters coming from / going to SimNation (outside of your cities), and they will not appear anywhere.


Quote from: Landwalker on January 12, 2008, 10:05:51 AM
Also, given that all of Allerton's "exported commuters" are in the industrial field, how does Pittsfield manage to have four and a half thousand "exported commuters" in Commerce?

Because of the alleged commuters coming from SimNation (not Allerton) into Pittsfield.
Some of them are commercial workers in Allerton.


Quote from: Landwalker on January 12, 2008, 10:05:51 AM
Finally, if there are so many job vacancies in Pittsfield (and, for that matter, Allerton), why don't any of those 30,000+ unemployed people in "SimNation" (which I'm getting by combining the city job vacancies of Pittsfield and Allerton, then subtracting the regional job vacancies (which, being a negative number, results in adding another 13,000) move in to fill them?

The reply to this lies in the preamble to this post. The regional workforce is too high! $%#Ninj2


Quote from: Landwalker on January 12, 2008, 10:05:51 AM
Short version:  I'm confused and baffled.

Short reply:  Thanks for reporting, please keep it up! :thumbsup:

Landwalker

Oh, I see what the hang-up was:  I thought that the Census Repository was merely erroneously reporting the workforce number, instead of the workforce number itself actually being wrong.

This evening after I finish tormenting myself with thesis research, I'll fire up Allerton and slap an industrial sector down in the city itself (the current small high-tech industrial park notwithstanding) and see what sort of effect that is, although due to the relative commutes (since Allerton's city limits run right up against Pittsfield), I imagine most people would prefer jobs there over jobs in the soon-to-be Allerton version of Flint, Michigan (judging by the CAM manual illustration of eternal commuters).  Meanwhile, I'll be looking forward to CAM 1.1 and the regional workforce fix.   ;)

Cheers.

Landwalker

Well, unfortunately, after knocking off the taxes for ID and IM so I could build a test chunk of them in Allerton itself, I encountered the problem of, even without high taxes, ID and IM being completely out of demand in Allerton.  I don't know if this is because the city's education level is too high (about 170 on average) or if it's because there are too many jobs in Pittsfield.  In the interests of being thorough, though, I plunked down a chunk of mid-density Industrial anyway, but it never developed (not even behind the sky-high demand for high-tech industry).

Cheers.

RippleJet

Quote from: Landwalker on January 12, 2008, 01:37:03 PM
I don't know if this is because the city's education level is too high (about 170 on average) or if it's because there are too many jobs in Pittsfield.

With an EQ of 170, no wonder nobody wants to work in Pittsfield's dirty industry! $%Grinno$%
You've clearly let your cities develop in two different directions...

and I should have seen that from your Census reports... &ops
Take a look at the Workforce Drives here: http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=1878.0

The only industry your Allertonians want is I-HT.
And you need to make sure you have the correct desirability in the area where you want I-HT to develop.

The most important desirability factors for I-HT are:
- no crime
- no pollution
- low traffic
- high land value

Check Allerton's desirability dataview.
If the I-HT desirability isn't bright green, you could try to plant a lot of trees on the empty lots. :thumbsup:

Landwalker

Problem is, even with the enormous I-HT demand, it never actually develops in Allerton (despite high desirability--no crime, no pollution, high land value thanks to plazas, etc.).  It also doesn't account for the sky-high demand for CS$, which the census report unfortunately doesn't capture (but it's about 20,000).  At the same time as the high-desirability and highly-demanded I-HT is failing to develop, people are leaving the city in droves due to unemployment.   &mmm

At this point I'm pretty confident that the primary problem is the "double workforce", although there could be something else I'm missing.  In any case, I don't suppose you happen to have a projected date for CAM 1.1?

Cheers.

xxdita

I don't think it's so much the double workforce as it is starting the region with such specialized cities.
I start off with at least one "balanced" city tile, letting it develop on it's own for about 20 years, then start another city for whichever specialty I'm going for. As you go back & forth between just the two cities, even with small tiles, it doesn't take long to grow some high stage buildings. I just don't connect my first city to another until I'm ready to.
CAM, like any serious mod, makes you change your playing style a little, until you really learn all of the ins and outs of it.

Quote from: Landwalker on January 13, 2008, 07:25:14 AM
In any case, I don't suppose you happen to have a projected date for CAM 1.1?

I'm thinking not long now.  :D

SC4BOY

I set all my cities up to be relatively balanced, at least in traffic... That is I tend to watch what kind of workers are most demanded for a city and make sure they are supplied either right in the city or in an adjacent or very close city (rarely more than one small tile away). I watch for commuter loops like a hawk.. I've always been aware of these for many years.. I watch the traffic out of and into a city and if they are just coming in and looping back out somewhere else .. ie they are not fillling a demand in that city.. I usually move to correct things.. On very rare occasions will I develop a highly specialized city.. I do have a "rich tourist" bay that I have almost all $$$ in but I have $$ and $ worker plentiful in the adjacent areas.. Even with 10's of thousands of workers streaming in, it only takes a moment with the route query that they are all or mostly finding work and that the workforces are balanced to my satisfaction..

Its just fun fun fun.. ;)

It seems the toughest thing to do is make sure that R$ is satisfied without throwing all the balance off.. Its very natural to people to make "rich" cities and of course all the nagging by the "coaches" just re-enforce that mode of play.. then people are very frustrated what their cites just won't work.. kind of misleading I've always thought from day one..

Landwalker

Quote from: xxdita on January 13, 2008, 08:43:39 AM
I don't think it's so much the double workforce as it is starting the region with such specialized cities.
What is it, exactly, that is so problematic with utilizing/beginning with "specialized" cities?  Specifically, what is it about CAM that requires this approach to be sacked when it had worked fine previously?  What particular elements of CAM are in conflict with "city specialization"?  This would be very good to know for figuring out how to tackle things the next time around, since I would be a little more familiar with the nuances of the mod's behavior.

Quote from: xxdita on January 13, 2008, 08:43:39 AM
CAM, like any serious mod, makes you change your playing style a little, until you really learn all of the ins and outs of it.

Only problem is, I don't know what style change I'm supposed to be making.  It may be because I don't see the conceptual problem behind specialized cities (at least in the sense that I have a difficult enough time calling them cities, anyway, since I conceive of them as a single polity that just happen to be on different regional tiles for purposes of convenience with regards to garbage, pollution, and electricity production).  The other part of it is because I don't want to have high-stage buildings developing before I reach a certain level.  Part of it is just approach to regional/city layout:  I never begin "downtown", because it strikes me as incongruous that even a mid-density downtown district would develop without a healthy supporting "outlying" area, let alone start to bust out the high-density stuff, so I prefer to start with a suburban area and build my way towards the eventual prospective Commercial Business District / Downtown.  If you go back to my original post (for sake of convenience by way of demonstration, since I'm in the middle of something else and can't open SC4 right now), of the two squares below Suburbia, the left one is intended for medium-density residential and commercial development, the right one is the future CDB (medium and high-density commercial), and the square below Industria is for another medium-density R&C area, so you can get an idea of the direction (and over-arching plan) of my regional development.  Now, I'm assuming that this doctrine is not "CAMpatible".

Obviously, in as much as realistic development patterns go, the ideal situation would be to start a city in the future CDB (or, at least, in the future mid-density R&C areas), but to keep it light-density and tending towards your usual suburban development layout, then expand progressively outwards until your initial small town starts having suburbs of its own, at which point the center of the original town experiences some "redevelopment" and is replaced with medium-density R&C and an infrastructural layout more typical of mid-density development (i.e. a more gridded pattern).  Perhaps this will be my next approach.

What would be extraordinarily handy would be something like a "CAM Tutorial" to get newcomers adjusted to the changes of the mod and the requisite changes in playing style.  If I actually knew what those were, and was moderately capable of putting them into practice, I'd put together a tutorial myself.  Perhaps, once everything is settled and I finally get my feet pointed in the right direction... until then, though, I suspect I am doomed to befuddlement.  %confuso

Quote from: SC4BOY
It seems the toughest thing to do is make sure that R$ is satisfied without throwing all the balance off.. Its very natural to people to make "rich" cities
Amen to that.  Particularly due to my personal investment in education, I feel compelled to provide every inch of my city with comprehensive schooling (elementary school, high school, libraries, a college, at minimum), and equally strong medical, police, water, fire, and the like coverage logically follow suit.  I've gotten the impression that this might not actually be a very good idea, unwilling though I am to deliberately allow vast swaths of a city to go with no education.

I'm quite alert when it comes to the possible problem of commuter loops, but since I'm currently working with only two cities, that in itself isn't yet the concern that it no doubt will be in the future.  Of course, before I can worry about that, I have to get to where I can manage a mere two adjacent districts to at least the level of "viable", although to judge from xxdita, the fact that there are two instead of one could well be the ultimate source of trouble (although, again, I don't yet understand why).

Cheers.

SC4BOY

Based on my experience, NONE of these issues belong to CAM (maybe a counting issue) but CAM doesn't "overwrite" the game.. the game mechanics are UTILIZED not OVERRIDDEN by CAM.. at least as I understand it.. and btw the SPECIALIZED CITIES really never did work very well as far as I can tell.. its just been a favorite "gimmick" since the early days of attempts to make "clean cities" and dump all the polution over to elsewhere.. This didn't come from CAM either..  The CAM plays with a few "mods" that alter some behaviours like the NAM does, but its still good old SC4 under the paintjob..

Landwalker

SC4BOY:  That's what I expected, but previously I never had much problem with semi-specialized cities.  It also seems like at least some amount of specialization is the entire point of region play in the first place--maybe not to have an entire tile swamped with heavy industry, but to at least differentiate between a tech/commercial city and a "dirtier" one (thinking about my hometown, for example, I can't come up with a single "Dirty Industry" in the entire county, and at best a smidgen of manufacturing--virtually all of Athens, GA is residential, commercial, and the University of Georgia).  So, while I agree that I was probably "overspecializing", I hadn't had a significant problem with that before, and it doesn't seem radically contrary to the intention of region play (not that I can comment on the extent to which region play in practice reflected the original intent, since I don't have enough familiarity with the game's intricacies).

While I'm griping about industry isolation and the repulsive notion (to my mind) of allowing dirty industry into my precious city, what would be the ideal approach to this problem?  Create a city, give it what industry it needs, and jack up its education as quick as you can to eventually oust the "bad industries"?  Create a city, give it lots of farms, work up to manufacturing (or better) and thus bypass Dirty Industry altogether?

The main sticking point is that I have a tendency to work outside-in, starting with the suburbs and buildings towards the eventual CBD.  This means the suburbs are the first things in the region to be created, but having suburbs swamped with dirty/manufacturing industries doesn't really jive with my notion of what I want my suburb to be.  So, at this point, it seems like in order to get the suburbs hopping and starting to progress towards the CBD, I have to sacrifice their atmosphere (which is naturally not something I want to do).

Cheers.

RippleJet

Quote from: Landwalker on January 13, 2008, 09:32:41 AM
Particularly due to my personal investment in education, I feel compelled to provide every inch of my city with comprehensive schooling (elementary school, high school, libraries, a college, at minimum), and equally strong medical, police, water, fire, and the like coverage logically follow suit.  I've gotten the impression that this might not actually be a very good idea, unwilling though I am to deliberately allow vast swaths of a city to go with no education.

I do indeed think you should have let your suburbs spread out a bit first (and CAM is perfect for that).
You should definitely let them spread out before starting to provide education giving them an EQ of 170...
With all your population being that well educated they don't want to work in the jobs available...

This can also be seen in Allerton's Census Report... CO§§ and I-HT are favoured by your Sims.
Your combination of residents and work places isn't very favourable for the Simulator...

First of all, your I-R and I-D workforce demand is 100% R§, I-M demands 50% R§ and 45% R§§.

Secondly, your R§ workforce is so well educated that they don't want to work in I-R, I-D or I-M.
They want to work in CO§§§ (22%), CO§§ (68%), CS§§ (15%), CS§ (23%) and IHT (22%).
(These are the Workforce Drives I linked you to before).

Thirdly, there are already quite a lot of vacant jobs (even if the regional workforce is wrong and might upset the simulator).
Even if demand and desirability is sky-high, new jobs won't appear as long as there are so many vacant jobs.

On the other hand, R§ demand is also very high (your industry needs them).
However every R§ that moves into Allerton will soon find himself too well educated for the jobs available...

For a balanced simulation I think you need to maintain a fair share of uneducated poor residents for your industries.

Landwalker

To make sure I understand this:
Problem Part 1:  My Sims in Allerton were originally uneducated (or at least poorly so), allowing them to fill all the I-D, I-M, and I-R jobs in Pittsfield.
Problem Part 2:  They then got themselves some learnin'.
Problem Part 3:  The stopped working in the "Low-EQ" jobs and began demanding "High-EQ" jobs, resulting in high job vacancy due to the abandoned I-D and I-M jobs.
Problem Part 4:  High-EQ jobs can't develop because there are too many vacant jobs in general.
Problem Part 5:  My newly-edumacated R$ sims can't get High-EQ jobs, which won't develop because the R$ fellows vacated their Low-EQ jobs.

So, a couple of possible solutions:

(1) To hell with my residents.  Let them all (or at least a lot of them) be ignorant bums, so that they'll work in the vacant I-D and I-M jobs.  Educate a small(er) amount of them to work in the high-EQ jobs, but keep this limited.

(2) Bulldoze Pittsfield, thereby eliminating all the job vacancies, thereby allowing high-EQ jobs to develop.  Would this actually work?

Cheers.