SimFox asks for help

[Andreas]

For ploppables, you can always delete the loose SC4Desc file, since the building exemplar file inside will be copied into the SC4Lot file automatically when creating a lot. For growables, this is not the case, since one building exemplar file can serve for several lots. If you have only one growable lot, you can copy the building exemplar file manually into the SC4Lot file and delete the SC4Desc file as well, though. If you modify the models, so they all have the same ID, only one building exemplar file is needed, of course, since both the stats and the building IDs are the same.

[RippleJet]

Great! The Model Files are ready and I could sen them to you (or send you a download link because there is 4 models there) in few minutes.

I downloaded them as well and took a look at them...
I'm not sure how you apply your night effects to them, but they all contained a huge number of files with TGI 0x0, 0x0, 0x0.
The size of those files indicate that they are S3D and FSH files.
However, clicking on any of them in Reader causes it to crash...

I made new SC4Model files by copying those files that had correct TGI addresses from your files into new files.
Thus, I got the file size of each of them down from 5,400 kB to 2,170 kB
I've sent the corrected files to Barby.

Am I correct in thinking that Desc file is a temporary thing and not needed (for distribution, at least) after the LOT file had been created. Also I could use same basic Desc file for all 4 different (differently named) Model files, right?

Yes and Barby will take care of those, one for the growable and one for the ploppable.
And they will both be included in their corresponding SC4Lot files.

[SimFox]

Ripple:
I've noticed those odd UI files, but wasn't sure what they were... My reader also crashes when clicking on them. I don't really know how they came to be though. What I did is simply re-run DAT FSH Insert from Max. If you could kindly explain to me how to get rid of them, or point me to the place which had some instruction on the matter (how exactly did you create new SC4Model file and copied into it all the necessary stuff?)

The first set of SC4Model Files was faulty as 3 out of 4 contained only night views. I've fixed that now and you can re-download the file, (I've just sent you new link). But these also contain those TGI 000 files...
When I first noticed the absence of day view I've tried to copy day view FSH into SC4Model file but with no success. File were there but association with S3Ds was broken and wront textures were dysplayed. So in the end I did the same procedure as before (DAT FSH Insert) but with correct set of Index.fsh files.

[RippleJet]

I've noticed those odd UI files, but wasn't sure what they were... My reader also crashes when clicking on them. I don't really know how they came to be though. What I did is simply re-run DAT FSH Insert from Max. If you could kindly explain to me how to get rid of them, or point me to the place which had some instruction on the matter (how exactly did you create new SC4Model file and copied into it all the necessary stuff?)

I simply selected (highlighted) all files except those UI files (Reader thinks they are UI files due to the Type ID being 0x0).
Then copy (Ctrl-C), open up a new blank.dat file, and paste (Ctrl-V) them in there and save as a new file.

The first set of SC4Model Files was faulty as 3 out of 4 contained only night views. I've fixed that now and you can re-download the file, (I've just sent you new link). But these also contain those TGI 000 files...

No worries, I'll copy and paste them once more.


EDIT:
Done, and Barby's got the latest models

[SimFox]

yep I did fix mine ones here... I just made a copy of the origina file, purged it form all content and copied into it correct files... So basically there is no need to re-index anything, right?

[RippleJet]

yep I did fix mine ones here... I just made a copy of the origina file, purged it form all content and copied into it correct files... So basically there is no need to re-index anything, right?

Nope, they are automatically numbered consequtively when pasting.
And even if the DIR file contains errors after pasting, they will be corrected when saving.

However, it's good practice to always reindex and rebuild the directory file every time you've added or removed any of the files.

[SimFox]

and here is anther one -
Krost (residential from moscow):






it is not quite complete yet... But what left (roof) will not affect either size or anything of consequence. Right now the LOT is Bated. But there isn't much there. Grace is a place holder so I could get some reflection as well as bounced light from in on the building. I can either drop it and it will be added in LOT editor (same texture) or, may be keep. For second solution speaks the fact that I need that curved pathway (good FengShui) I doubt it would be possible to make same one in LOT editor (particularly make it lead to doors). And if I have bated pathway and Loted grass there will be quite noticeable discrepancy in terms of shadows. For some bizarre reason the sun in BAT (including original one) and Game doesn't coincide...
Of course I may export the building without pond or anything else for the Loting pleasures ;-)

[BarbyW]

There is a slight problem with the corner building as it is slightly over 4x4. There are two options: one is to make the lot 5x5; the other is to make the footprint of the building smaller so it fits in a 4x4. Can you tell me which you would prefer?

[SimFox]

I've altered stats in SC4Modle file to make it fit onto 4x4 lot.
It is Wall2Wall so it has to be aligned by the "back" corner to the Lot with architectural shader somewhat overhang over sidewalk.
like this:


this way building will comply with 2 meter (from the "street") standard

[BarbyW]

I had actually done the same by altering the building footprint and aligning to the rear of the lot. I shall post just the lots attached to a post here later.

[BarbyW]

Argh, I can't attach a file at the moment so I have emailed them to you.
Edit - I have lost your email address so will PM the location to you. Sorry.

[SimFox]

You know what?? I went and calculated floorage/occupancy thing of the HZ corner building with quite a precision and, surprise surprise it came to be very VERY close to what you, Barby had suggested in a first place namely it turned out to need 847 CS$$ occupants...
I'm a bit lost now what shall I do... Follow the logic of the game or convention of it. First says it should be 800+ jobs, and second sayz wait a minute there ain't no CS$$ building close big to that.

But while I'm pondering about that, I would love to hear idea about CAM occupancy for this one:






Following the formulas it would be 1317 R$$ but isn't it too little for a 40 storey tower?
As it is now it is a 3x3 lot with complelly bated lot that leave no gaps, but I'm prepared to release the lotless version as well.

Also, as I gather, the LOT stage is dependent on occupants per tile of LOT, but isn't it a bit skewed model? This in a way prohibit large public spaces associated with many large buildings found in bigger cities. Shouldn't it also be more dependent on the density of the actual built up area?

The regular (non-Cam) version is on already STEX: http://www.simtropolis.com/stex/index.cfm?id=20294

[BarbyW]

I will let Tage answer you on the values but I am downloading from the STEX and will let you know what the X_Tool comes up with for occupancy of the Krost Tower.

The X_Tool gives an occupancy of R$:5499 and R$$: 3037. This gives a stage 10 on a 3x4 lot but by changing the footprint to allow a 3x3 lot it becomes stage 11.

[RippleJet]

First says it should be 800+ jobs, and second sayz wait a minute there ain't no CS$$ building close big to that.

A department store?

Also, as I gather, the LOT stage is dependent on occupants per tile of LOT, but isn't it a bit skewed model? This in a way prohibit large public spaces associated with many large buildings found in bigger cities.

No, it won't prohibit larger lots... that larger lot would only have a lower growth stage.

I'll turn the question the other way around...
Consider your skyscraper growing on a large lot at say, stage 8.
Then, consider that the "owner" of the lot, later when the city has grown even further,
realises that he can fit another similar tower on the empty space of his lot.
Isn't it natural that this would be allowed only at a higher growth stage?

Shouldn't it also be more dependent on the density of the actual built up area?

Being a mayor in SC4 that can be controlled in only one way... zone density.
Zone high density only in areas where you want skyscrapers.

The X_Tool gives an occupancy of R$:5499 and R$$: 3037. This gives a stage 10 on a 3x4 lot but by changing the footprint to allow a 3x3 lot it becomes stage 11.

That's with a filling degree of 50%, which I would consider a bit too high though...
35% would probably have been better, considering the pond is included in the LOD box.
That would have given it an occupancy of 2127 R§§ and 3851 R§, growing as a stage 9 on 3×3.

[SimFox]

Ripple:
Actually there is a tool in 3ds Max that calculates the volume of any given object. This way there is no need for filling degree estimation. Or do you think this is too much?

I also have a couple of new questions. What shall I do if I want to make different color versions of the same building? Should they have unique TGI? I would also like to try make them into a building family so to randomize their appearance on the LOT.

Another one is about making the "mega" lot with more then one building. AS far as I know only one object on the LOT can be building and as such have Occupancy, pollution and consumption data attached to it. So others would need to be props, right? In thin case how to make those numbers (consumption, occupancy, etc) scale with the size of the lot (number of buildings on it)?

[wouanagaine]

Actually there is a tool in 3ds Max that calculates the volume of any given object. This way there is no need for filling degree estimation. Or do you think this is too much?

Most of properties are based on boundingbox volume, some others need the height or only width/depth of boundingbox, hence the need of a proper filling degree estimation

I also have a couple of new questions. What shall I do if I want to make different color versions of the same building? Should they have unique TGI? I would also like to try make them into a building family so to randomize their appearance on the LOT.

if 2 stuffs have same TGI then only one will be used in game
And yes do use building family as explained in the 'making a family' thread ( or somehting like that, I don't remember it )

Another one is about making the "mega" lot with more then one building. AS far as I know only one object on the LOT can be building and as such have Occupancy, pollution and consumption data attached to it. So others would need to be props, right? In thin case how to make those numbers (consumption, occupancy, etc) scale with the size of the lot (number of buildings on it)?

Use Building as prop and adjust the filling degree of the 'real building' by taking into account the volume of 'fake buildings'

[BarbyW]

To answer the first point, not everyone uses 3DSMax especially lotmakers so the Filling Degree is needed.
If you want to make colour variations you can do the same as you did with the corner building and make the models with the same TGI so that only one will ever be used as Ripplejet explained. If you make them with different TGIs then they can be put into a building family so any one of them can grow thsus giving more variety for one lot.
Finally, about Mega lots, you are correct in thinking that one one building can be used on a lot but by finding the initial stats for one building you can change the stats to accommodate more "buildings" which are actually props. In the X_Tool this would be done by changing the Filling Degree.

[SimFox]

Wouanagaine:
I'm not talking about BAT, but the 3ds Max core functionality, so it isn't bounding box volume that I'm referring to  bu the volume of the building itself. In a way this is most precise number with no need to estimation of filing degree. Of course it could be argued that if we go down this precision road should we take into account the "unused" space withing the building itself?? Anywho I just thought that since I don't have X-Tool I can skip the whole filling degree business and use defacto volume.

Barby:
I know that not everyone using 3ds max, but if it's used, then, I guess, such a feature could be used, right? The whole point of my question was are we aiming for precision, or for "bracketed" system  with few delimited "stages" say 1.0, 0.75, 0.5, 0.3, etc...

OK, I get the Building family and different TGI thing, I guess that is what I need, since I want the situation where all of the colors (if user would want to) be available simultaneously. 
But about making "megalot" (in this case not necessarily bigger then 6x6, although I think it will end up in that category as well) but with more then one building. So I have one SC4Model and 2 different Desc files linked to it one for single building and another "expanded" to accommodate the occupants and consumption of the rest of expected LOT "prop-buildings" right? and I can make also Prop Desc files from same very SC4Modles I use for building Desc, right? I mean I don't need to export it all over again to make it a prop...

Hope I express myself in a fashion clear enough for others to understand...
Sorry if that isn't the case, and please, ask if something isn't clear...

BTW here is a tower in question:






Image size reduced... I don't think we need all 1143×869 pixels to see the colour variations...
/Tage

[Andreas]

The color variants look great, and they surely make a nice set. And yes, you can make building and prop exemplar files from the same model; this is needed for mega lots with more than one model (one is the building and the others are props). Building families and prop families are basically the same, so you can use one ID for both. Since the building/prop family property is just another reference method, you don't need two building exemplar files for two different lots where one is supposed to have a specific building model and the other one a randomly chosen model. Only for said mega lots, a new building exemplar file is needed that has different values for accomodating the higher amount of buildings that will be shown on the lot. Using building/prop families also means that someone can safely remove the pink model (along with the respective exemplar file), for instance, if he doesn't like it. The game will still choose between the other models in this case.

[RippleJet]

Ripple:
Actually there is a tool in 3ds Max that calculates the volume of any given object. This way there is no need for filling degree estimation. Or do you think this is too much?

Getting the volume from 3ds Max is of course the most precise number we can get!
And that's what I would have wanted to have for the "X Tool" when calculating the occupancy and other properties.

Unfortunately, that volume is not available to most lotters, who would only have the SC4Model file...
Thus we have to rely on the extreme coordinates of the LOD box and estimate the true volume using a filling degree.

If you're saying that the volume in 3ds Max would have given the Krost a R§§ occupancy of 1317,
then that is a good example of how easy it is to over-estimate the filling degree.
Even 35% is too high, 22% would be closer to the truth... and 3037 inhabitants is definitely too high in that case!

There's nothing saying you can't use the true volume of the building.
You may give this value to Barby or me with the model, and we'll set the filling degree to correspond to that volume!