SC4 Devotion Forum Archives

Thanks for the answer.

I anstalled the Bat4Max from Simfox yesterday, but it's the same problem :(

Then it's something to do with your setup or the scene.... double check the LODs are OK, there are no extraneous Xrefs in the file and the lightrig is set properly.

The LODs are ok, but if I press the button "reset lights & camera", than I get that:

(http://www.ld-host.de/show/885dec7a038ffea776776b374fe7ab25.jpg)

Is it the problem?

Check and delete any XREF scenes.  It should be under the File menu (top left).  It looks like an old lightrig is in there as well.

Hmmm, now it run.
I installed again and I deactivated "night windows".  ()what() :)

Thanks for the help, callagrafx!

your original problem was caused by wrong system units set in your max - those by default are inches (at least in English language version), but for BAT you must use meters as a system unit. It is important to understand that MAX have 2 sets of units - system ones and display ones. I would advise to switch both to meters. But system absolutely have to be meters. System units are used for all internal calculations and size of all 3ds models (LODs in BAT) are set in exactly system units.

Speaking of BAT4Max 4.5 it is tailored to work with LetThereBeLight utility that sets your environmental lighting both day and night. So I would very strongly advise you to use it (you don't at the time given the screenshot with lightning rig with multiple lights in it). Among other things LetThereBeLight would have solved your problem before it would appear as it among other thing automatically sets system units. There are many more improvements under the hood that make it fastest BAt4Max ever - reducing export time on same Max version by up to 30+%. It also have much more advanced FSH compression system.

As for the NightWindows - it is an old way to create lit up windows. UVW mapping used for it is incompatible with system used in 3ds Max 8 and newer. At start up Scripts detect your Max version and disable incompatible function removing them from interface as well.

BTW make sure you've updated rig files for GMAX BAT as well. Failure to do so may in specific cases cause misalignment issue that typically results in parts of the model missing in game view.

In the upcoming version there will be first significant re-design of the interface aimed to make the entire process much more streamlined and intuitive. On the technical side there will be new alpha generation that will guarantee pristine quality as well as improvements in render processing that will bring further improvement of quality in challenging situations. At the same time some parts (dysfunctional anyway, at least in truNite work flow) will most probably be dropped as they can cause some instabilities.

New version will once and for all solve all the issues with installation of 3ds Max into default folder eg one with empty spaces in path. Although in OS with UAC one would still have to enable write rights to the BAT folder.

After some while fully functional (press the button) solution to clear output folder of a selected model output files as well as over all cleanup of ALL output files that functions in any and all OS will be there.

That said best of luck in you new 3ds Max adventures!

While we have you here SF, could you possible do a version that doesn't require deltree?  I'm not putting that on my machine but it means i have to manually run the other scripts every time I run a render.

it is already done.

Quote from: SimFox on July 09, 2010, 08:52:49 AM
it is already done.

Eh?  I downloaded your scripts on the weekend (BAT4Max V4.5) and it still asked for it?  Also, I noticed there was no readme or installation instructions in there which made setting it up difficult.

Sorry, what I meant that this function is already realized, but it will be available in the new version that will be released soon...

All the instructions, very detailed and illustrated, are in first message in the support thread on Simtpropolis (http://www.simtropolis.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=37&threadid=112233&STARTPAGE=1&FTVAR_FORUMVIEWTMP=Linear).
Furthermore description of the download on STEX (http://www.simtropolis.com/STEX/details.cfm?id=23088) clearly states this in a form of an active link. Link to the forum where active, continuous and reasonably knowledgeable support is provided.

So, I 'm truly puzzled how is it "very difficult".

Well, if Shaun downloaded the file at home, took it to work to use on machines that have Max 2009 via a USB drive , as the work computers do not have direct internet access for security reasons, it could be a tad awkward....

Quote from: SimFox on July 09, 2010, 11:16:30 AM
Sorry, what I meant that this function is already realized, but it will be available in the new version that will be released soon...

All the instructions, very detailed and illustrated, are in first message in the support thread on Simtpropolis (http://www.simtropolis.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=37&threadid=112233&STARTPAGE=1&FTVAR_FORUMVIEWTMP=Linear).
Furthermore description of the download on STEX (http://www.simtropolis.com/STEX/details.cfm?id=23088) clearly states this in a form of an active link. Link to the forum where active, continuous and reasonably knowledgeable support is provided.

So, I 'm truly puzzled how is it "very difficult".

Cos I have problems with the forums at ST.  I find them very slow to load and often prone to crashing.  And actually I downloaded at work and took them home and then had to retrace my steps to find the install instructions.

Quote from: Diggis on July 10, 2010, 03:43:07 AM
and then had to retrace my steps to find the install instructions.

Don't you just hate that... I used to leave stuff on the Tube all the time  :D

Hm... Never had experience slow forums at ST. STEX is often slower than turtle... dead one at that.
Actually yesterday forums here on SC4 were very slow.

Anyway I'll take this into account for the next release I'll make PDF, I guess with same instructions.

BTW what other functionality and improvements would you two like to see in BAT4Max?

Quote from: SimFox on July 10, 2010, 05:01:41 AM
BTW what other functionality and improvements would you two like to see in BAT4Max?

There was one facility in Chris's that was extremely useful... large preview size.  Using the camera position, I used to be able to preview a scene, both day and night, at a given size without having to switch to user view and zoom/centre in.  Very useful for checking detail on smaller buildings.  When used in night view, it set the night parameters and turned on nightlights/libraries etc.

Quote from: SimFox on July 10, 2010, 05:01:41 AM
Anyway I'll take this into account for the next release I'll make PDF, I guess with same instructions.

Cool Cool.  Wasn't a huge deal and the ST forums have been better lately.

Quote from: SimFox on July 10, 2010, 05:01:41 AM
BTW what other functionality and improvements would you two like to see in BAT4Max?

A batch renderer would be quite useful, especially for those of use who do modular stuff as I can set it running and head to work.  :D  But the two things that I found especially useful in Chris's scripts was the ability automatically get the last exported LOD and to add a name to a render from GMAX without saving it.

While no idea how it worked within the scripts I think when the files were exported it exported them with the MAX file name and then when it imported it that name was added to an export box so when you exported it was prefixed to the file name, removing the need to save the GMAX file.  Caught me out the first time I used yours, old habits die hard.  :D

Perhaps you're new BAT4MAX would be able to operate direct from 3ds max. saving a step of re optiong things in gmax. 

Quote from: MOREOPTIONS on July 11, 2010, 05:18:40 AM
Perhaps you're new BAT4MAX would be able to operate direct from 3ds max. saving a step of re optiong things in gmax. 

Not possible.. the mechanism for creating .sc4model files (which is the file format recognised by SC4) is handled by a proprietary DLL created for/by Maxis for use with GMAX, and this is the only way to create the file.  And don't even go there with reverse engineering the file format to write a new exporter, as that's strictly against Maxis' EULA.

There's always a possibility of writing your own version... because it's really not too difficult of a process. It's the logical method of generating the s3d files, this process was not derived via decompliling the DLL. I merely came up with this from what I know about s3d files and observing how the BAT clips and splits the LOD.

1. View the LOD from the camera, decide which faces are visible (any face who's normal is perpendicular to the camera (+90 and -90) or between them (the 180 side) is invisible). Store this info for triangle mesh generation. Also remove any vertexes and faces that are hidden by other LOD geometry.
2. Split the LOD according to 128x128 texture segments on the render image (or 256x256 for HD). Notate added vertexes for next step.
3. Grab the vertex coordinates, switch the Y and Z, and invert the X and output to an array of vertexes, 1 array per segment.
4. Generate triangle mesh array. 1 array per segment
5. Generate UV mappings according to vertex location when superimposed on segment.
6. Generate raw s3d data
7. Insert the s3d into a DBPF file (.SC4MODEL in this case) via Reader or the like (the newest Reader has scripting capability, so you can have BAT4MAX or whatever generate the script and have Reader run it)
8. Repeat for the rest of the views.

I can come up with a visual stepthrough if it would make it any clearer.

Cal & MOREOPTIONS:
it is an interesting consideration. Yes we can't create SC4Model file. Yet we can perfectly do so with .DAT file in say iLive Reader. If that is also illegal that the whole mod thing would be illegal. As long as we have such empty DAT we can populate it with custom content. Beyond that I, to be honest don't see any technical or legal obstacles.
What is missing currently:
- functionality to create the file names - not necessarily for the DAT itself, but for the internal files. Yet we actually have it - ModelNames.ms.
- Exporting of the Sliced LODs - not impossible to accomplish. Basically the only trick there is altering coordinate system so that Y axis points up in stead of Z
- UVW mapping of the renders images onto t6hose sliced LODs. It is simple projection mapping...

It would take some writing, but there is nothing really impossible, providing we use one of the templates from iLive Reader.
We only big question is why? I mean it wouldn't really add anything, wouldn't improve anything. It would save one step that takes all but few seconds to accomplish...
It may be more beneficial for massive prop packs I guess, but still.

Cal:
Large Preview Size... Never heard of it... Now that I hear, I'm to be honest, not sold on the idea. Checking on the small details... What is the point to check on them from the view that is irrelevant to the game? I mean it is practical for true 3d staff, but not for this game. Besides, so called HD preview does exactly that gives you 2x blown up view. If your small details are to small to be seen at this zoom level question beckons are they really necessary/does it matter how do they look?
As for night preview... Still don't see point in it as such. LtbL sets all parameters. Turning on/off lights as well as night libraries is totally pointless procedure. First of all no lights or sel-illuminated materials would EVER be noticeable during day render view. So technically there is NO need to turn them off. This is one. Two is even if you want to (say for lights to save time - not sure that tis eve apply given they don't really contribute anything to illumination solutions  and are might be simply ignored by calculations) it is not too terribly difficult to accomplish this with Light Lister easy enough.
Besides it is part of old traditional mask based night view export. Process that has only positive side to it - dusk/dawn transition. Yet is of significantly inferior quality (simply because it is by definition based on 8 bit mask), slow - requires one additional export pass, and, to borrow you term, convoluted - one must do what one can't see to accomplish it - particularly with night maps - the only way to see them is to do preview -  a lot of nonsense if you ask me. Plus in the end this method interferes with TtruNite export process. Since both of it's passes are in effect day exports it prevents both lights and self-illuminated mats to show up on truNite pass. I guess I see a work-around for lights, but how to be with self-illuminated mats? Selecting them by this very property isn't all that instrumental - it is sometimes useful in day view as well as night one.

Diggis:
Batch processing on the other hand is truly worth while thing.. It truly adds to functionality, rather the simply mimicking something from that of Max. It could also be used to make truNite export one click process. I'll look into it. Not sure it would be ready for upcoming release, but I'll certainly put it on to-do list.

The other thing - inputting name in GMAX rather than saving file... Well I hardly see how it could be called useful... Convenient may be useful, not really it doesn't add any new functionality, saves absolute minimum of the actual work. In fact the only measurable saving is a space GMAX files would otherwise occupy on you HDD. Given that we are speaking purely LODs here it is vanishingly small.
Pretty much same as far as "last exported LOD" goes. A button like that simply saves clicking on File -> Import. That's it! Cause if you select to display your files in selection window by date modified... you last exported LOD file would always be on top.

May be I'm missing something? I'm not really familiar with this function...

Quote from: Blue Lightning on July 11, 2010, 09:59:26 AM
There's always a possibility of writing your own version... because it's really not too difficult of a process. It's the logical method of generating the s3d files, this process was not derived via decompliling the DLL. I merely came up with this from what I know about s3d files and observing how the BAT clips and splits the LOD.

Sorry, DLL has very little to nothing to do with ANY of the stuff you're listing here (much of which is wrong anyway). Virtually all of it done by scripts and process is rather different. More so it couldn't be done the way you list.

Quote from: Blue Lightning on July 11, 2010, 09:59:26 AM
1. View the LOD from the camera, decide which faces are visible (any face who's normal is perpendicular to the camera (+90 and -90) or between them (the 180 side) is invisible). Store this info for triangle mesh generation. Also remove any vertexes and faces that are hidden by other LOD geometry.

No need to decide any of this. Any face has normal, just evaluate it's angle in camera coordinate system. No need to store anything in teh mesh... all faces that face away from camera are simply deleted.

Quote from: Blue Lightning on July 11, 2010, 09:59:26 AM
2. Split the LOD according to 128x128 texture segments on the render image (or 256x256 for HD). Notate added vertexes for next step.

Yes copy of the LODs are sliced based on 256x256 view portion. If any dimension is smaller than 257pixels no slicing on this dimension is performed. I don't see any need to notate any of the vertices. You can always get all the vertices in a given mesh into array on a fly.

Quote from: Blue Lightning on July 11, 2010, 09:59:26 AM
3. Grab the vertex coordinates, switch the Y and Z, and invert the X and output to an array of vertexes, 1 array per segment.

I think this could be simply accomplished by turning coordinate system...

Quote from: Blue Lightning on July 11, 2010, 09:59:26 AM
4. Generate triangle mesh array. 1 array per segment

I don't see what this would serve. You already have this geometry. Why would you need to generate triangle mesh array. What is it anyway?

Quote from: Blue Lightning on July 11, 2010, 09:59:26 AM
5. Generate UV mappings according to vertex location when superimposed on segment.

It doesn't work this way, but no problem there is ready function that does the job.

Quote from: Blue Lightning on July 11, 2010, 09:59:26 AM
6. Generate raw s3d data

No need to generate anything. It is all done in the process - each cut is mapped and exported as 3ds file

Quote from: Blue Lightning on July 11, 2010, 09:59:26 AM
7. Insert the s3d into a DBPF file (.SC4MODEL in this case) via Reader or the like (the newest Reader has scripting capability, so you can have BAT4MAX or whatever generate the script and have Reader run it)

I wonder if DATCMD could be used for this very purpose. As far as I see it could. The only difference with inserting FSH files is that 3ds become s3d - is there any difference apart from extension name? At any rate worst come to worst Reader and it's import 3ds function could be used.

Quote from: Blue Lightning on July 11, 2010, 09:59:26 AM
8. Repeat for the rest of the views.

Naturally!

Anyway, much of this doesn't need to be re-invented. This functionality apart from actual exporting of 3ds is ALREADY in the scripts, always had been there. It is used to determine which of the cut slices of rendered image are actually saved and, most importantly, named, and later converted to FSHs later. Some are vestiges of original GMAX script.

yet the point remains why!? This will not expand functionality single bit, and wouldn't really be much of the time saving... It would, prolly be neat though...

Quote from: SimFox on July 11, 2010, 10:37:11 AM
Cal & MOREOPTIONS:
it is an interesting consideration. Yes we can't create SC4Model file. Yet we can perfectly do so with .DAT file in say iLive Reader. If that is also illegal that the whole mod thing would be illegal. As long as we have such empty DAT we can populate it with custom content. Beyond that I, to be honest don't see any technical or legal obstacles.

This section from the Maxis EULA prevents it....

QuoteEA owns all of the rights, title and interest in the Tools & Materials. You may not alter any of EA's trademarks or logos, or alter or remove any of EA's trademark or copyright notices included in or with the Tools & Materials or EA's products. Your right to use Tools & Materials is limited to the license grant above, and you may not otherwise copy, display, distribute, perform, publish, modify, create works from, or use any of the Tools & Materials. Without limiting the preceding sentence, you may not modify, reverse engineer, disassemble, license, transfer, distribute, create works from, or sell the Tool, or use the Tools & Materials to further any commercial or unlawful purpose. Without limiting the foregoing, you may not use the Tools & Materials to promote another product or business, or on any site that operates or promotes a server emulator.

You may include materials created with the Tools & Materials on your personal noncommercial website for the noncommercial benefit of the fan community for EA's products, provided this is beneficial to the product(s) in EA's judgment, and provided that if you do so, you must also post the following notice on your site on the same web page(s) where those materials are located: "This site is not endorsed by or affiliated with Electronic Arts, or its licensors. Trademarks are the property of their respective owners. Game content and materials copyright Electronic Arts Inc. and its licensors. All Rights Reserved." You will not represent that your site is endorsed or approved by or affiliated with EA or our licensors or that any other content on your site is endorsed or approved by or affiliated with EA or our licensors.

They own the rights 100% to the file formats used by SC4.  Any attempt to author these files without using the tools provided by Maxis is in breach of the EULA.  Not a good thing to do.  As it only takes seconds to export the LODs from gmax, what's the problem? 

Modding is not against the EULA, as we are not modifying Maxis content for commercial gain.

As for the large preview thing, it wasn't a biggie....certainly didn't need a thesis arguing against it  :D

Quote from: SimFox on July 11, 2010, 10:37:11 AM
The other thing - inputting name in GMAX rather than saving file... Well I hardly see how it could be called useful... Convenient may be useful, not really it doesn't add any new functionality, saves absolute minimum of the actual work. In fact the only measurable saving is a space GMAX files would otherwise occupy on you HDD. Given that we are speaking purely LODs here it is vanishingly small.
Pretty much same as far as "last exported LOD" goes. A button like that simply saves clicking on File -> Import. That's it! Cause if you select to display your files in selection window by date modified... you last exported LOD file would always be on top.

I must say, you're definition of useful is very narrow.  :P  To me useful is anything that saves me time, space, mouse clicks.   The functions above do just save time which for me is a bonus.  I find it useful.  If you don't, no worries.

However, thinking on it, the name function may be needed for the batch renderer to work as it means you don't have to save the files on render when you do a batch export for the LODS from GMAX.

I fail to see how going the way Me and Blue Lighting suggest is different than modding. Does it (exporting 3ds into empty DAT file) suddenly become "commercial" I really want to find a logic her and am failing...

BTW how was it handled when original BAT4Max had been created?  BTW here:
"Your right to use Tools & Materials is limited to the license grant above, and you may not otherwise copy, display, distribute, perform, publish, modify, create works from, or use any of the Tools & Materials. Without limiting the preceding sentence, you may not modify, reverse engineer, disassemble, license, transfer, distribute, create works from, or sell the Tool, or use the Tools & Materials to further any commercial or unlawful purpose."

EA boils all down to exactly COMMERCIAL and UNLAWFUL purposes.  Creating DAT and stuffing it with files created by you is exactly same as creating say texture pack. You don't use EA/Maxis tools to edit those textures, you stuff them into file that is readable by the game.  So again how is this different from what we are proposing to do?

To be hones what I would be potentially more concerned it is the whole reverse engineering portion... but again from what I'm getting it refer, again to a commercial gain and same vague "unlawful" use. Cause ALL BAT4MAX is by definition reverse engineering.

But so are ALL mods as well - they take game mechanics and reverse engineer it... So I guess the key here is that same very commercial gain. as long as none of this is sold it's OK.

BTW we have one lawyer guy (from Alaska if I remember it correctly) may be we should ask him what does he think?

It's rather simple... and remember it's the file formats themselves which are protected as well as the IP to the tools. 

We never modify and distribute Maxis content, so we are not in violation of the EULA there. 
NAM and other mods OVERRIDE Maxis code, not alter it, so again we are OK. 
Finally, we don't sell content in SC4 proprietary file formats, so once again we are OK. 

However, if you try to reverse engineer the DLL then that does violate the EULA.  BUT... after some thought and re-reading, it DOESN'T say a new tool cannot be created.  Which actually leads me to think that, if someone could write a DLL for Max that did the same as the one for GMAX, but does so without plagiarising code from the Maxis DLL, then yes, it I guess it would be permissable.

And David (Dedgren) would indeed be the best person to confirm this...

Uff, after some searching in the thousands of areas hier in the forums, I just have a short general question about the BAT - I'm not using 3dsMax, I'm just interested:

Ist it possible to create a BAT Renderer who uses the GPU to render?
I think it would increase the rendering speed extremely, but I don't know if it is possible to realize or if Max just doesn't have the possibility to use the GPU.

It might be possible...
What is important to keep in mind is that there are two variables here - MAX itself and then there is a Renderer. When it comes to render the first one (Max) is a sort of control mechanism. Is terns cameras around, cuts rendered images, assigns names etc, and, naturally, gives teh command to Renderer to render. Renderer itslef utilizes own set of algorithm to calculate illumination for each and every pixel in the final image. How exactly it is done, through power of CPU, like most current one do, or with power of GPU like it seem we all be rendering in couple of years from now shouldn't really be a problem as long as the renderer in question could accept command from MAX. And if it is built into max that should be taken as granted.

Of course there could be some issues. And there ARE some. For instance V-Ray doesn't support Camera overshot. so only what is in the camera cone of view is rendered what is outside of it is chopped off:


image by thianz

This creates limitation of how big models could be rendered with V-Ray as a renderer. I've first came across this issue back in 2007, and it still seem to be with us. And given that this is such a specific and "abnormal" way of rendering I seriously doubt it will ever be "fixed".
Another problem is with so called unbiased renderers (like say Fry Renderer) - these offer extreme simplicity of use with absolutely superior quality of output - it all suppose to be absolutely real (real laws of physics are simulated). Yet this accuracy comes at the cost -  no orthographic cameras - these are simply un-natural. Plus, it is always a human decision when any given picture is "ready" if you leave it Fry will go on and on and on improving it.

Quick silver in Max2011, so far imho has be a huge disappointment. It takes longer than well set Mental Ray and delivers worse results. But it seem to be consensus in tech community that GPU is the way to go, So, as I've said above, in couple of years that is how we'll render everything.

Hello  :)
I have a trouble with 3dsmax7 and BAT4max, Give me advice if you can please. ;)

I changed PC from WindowsXP sp3 to Windows7 PRO 64bit now.
B.A.T(Gmax) is worked fine (complete ti make .SC4Model), and as HD-PROPs as well.
But BAT4Max with 3dsmax7 is could not complete to export to .SC4Model....

I'd try to some versions of BAT4Max and had result as following.
-ALN Bat4Max V3.1 : Don't exported FSH,  None FSH-files in SC4Model.
-Bat4Max2.6HD : FSH-file are export to SC4Model, but all of FSH is BLACK images.(checked with ILiveReader)
-Bat4Max 2k edition v4.5(fixed) : Script Error and Stop script, Can't export.
-BAT4MAX5 : 3DSMax7 installed in "C:Program Files(x86)/" forcibly even if I appoint a folder "C:/" optionally.
I don't why can't installed in directly under "C:\", It cause is issue of an installer-exe maybe.

I confirmed that .BMP, FSH, .TGI, folders from began xxx.30000 are there in "\gamepacks\BAT\Outputfiles\" right. (with "ALN" and "2.6HD")


Can I use any BAT4Max right with 3dsmax7 and Windows7-PRO-64bit ?? ()what()

Thnaks for any helps. ;)

Last bat4max plugin which should me 5 doesn't work with old version of 3dsmax, try 2010, 11, 12, 13 versions  ;)

to Gorafe
Thanks, and I see. I had little misunderstand about a BAT4Max5. ;D


By the way,
I could solved a problem :),  A cause is my so easy mistake I had. :-[
I changed an "Installer-exe of 3dsmax7" to mode for compatible with WinXP-SP3, then I could install it to free directory I choose. ;) 
Before : "C:Program Files(X86)/Autodesk/3dsmax/"
Now :  "C:3dsmax/" (no used SPACE in a directory-name)
BAT4Max worked correctly and completed export FSH to .SC4Model right. :thumbsup:


Sorry to my elementary post and Thanks for helps. :)