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Three Rivers Region

Started by dedgren, December 20, 2006, 07:57:49 PM

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Wow, David, the Real Roads really have been more than just developing a network. They've been very educational as well. Seeing those partially wide-radius curves really does make me wonder... what might we be able to do a year from now?



Well I like what I see, so I'm looking forward to seeing what you've got coming that's even cooler! 

The honest sad truth is that some of the maxis road textures are actually quite sloppy.  I'm looking forward to replacing them with this mod someday in the future! 


Much better curve/transition, David, the default cruve transitions always bugged me, too. 

Just a question.  Are the diagonal (or angled, as the case may be) roads the same width as those on the orthagonal?  Or is it just an in-game optical illusion that makes them appear to be narrower?



I neglect to check up on what's happening at 3RR for a while - and discoverer lots of cool stuff being made!  Guess I better check in more often!


I'd hoped to have better news...

I honestly thought I'd figured out overrides next to puzzle pieces.  That would have allowed dual centerlines to be automatically extended when a wide curve or puzzle piece intersection would be plopped.

So I've come up with a workaround.

You'll need to know the dimensions of the puzzle piece, but after you've used them for a while that's usually no problem.  You'll notice that the dual lines are created automatically next to the end stub.

Fit the puzzle piece in, and...

...there you have it.

I'm going to work on some more of the textures tonight.  I can't wait to look at these on something other than plain flat background.


D. Edgren

Please call me David...

Three Rivers Region- A collaborative development of the SC4 community
The 3RR Quick Finder [linkie]

I aten't dead.  —  R.I.P. Granny Weatherwax

Skype: davidredgren


David, your enthusiasm for this game is quite infectious.
It is good to have you back.  &apls

Henrik Sedin: 82gp 29g 83a 112p - 2009/2010 Art Ross/Hart Trophy winner!


another day another revelation, this year could be a very interesting one.
NAM + CAM + RAM + SAM, that's how I roll....


Welcome back, David! So good to have you around again. :)

I am flabbergasted at the progress you're making! Well done!


As Mightygoose said earlier on the page, another day, another revelation. Your technique for investigation really is infectious, David!



David, it's so great that you're feeling well and getting back into the game (and changing it!). It's always fun to watch (and experience!) the excitement level as you take on another dimension of the game to improve it. These Real Roads will add yet another entry to your long list of 'realism' accomplishments.

Following these with great anticipation...


Great to see you back, David!! I love the centerlines, they make the RealRoads so much more real!!

Can't wait to see what you come up with next!

You can call me Grif

--Currently out of the office, will resume SC4 7/19



I'm pretty bummed.

I began getting increasingly worried that the RealRoads were moving straight into a head-on collision with several NAM initiatives- notably the NWM.  I wrote our great friend Alex (Tarkus) expressing my concerns last night, and he pretty much confirmed what I had been worrying about.

QuoteThe NWM is nearly ready for primetime now (...), and there's around 17,000 lines of RUL 0x10000002 code done for Release 1, and about another 4,500 or so I have tucked away for future use on the 3-tile networks.

If the dashed-line RealRoads were to replace the default Road network, with the additional overrides for the double lines, etc., it would require re-writing about 50-75% of the NWM RULs, in order to re-override the RealRoads modifications done at the basic network level, and there's a good possibility the code will end up being somewhat less stable.  This would also impact any other Road-based network variants in the RealRoads series.

My recommendation would be that if you're going to have a RealRoad setup as a texture replacement for the base "Game" Road network, go for a solid double-yellow line setup.

So, I guess this is pretty much my fault.  As a member of the NAM Team, I should have done a better job keeping up with other NAM developments.

* * *

It looks like I have one of two options, both kind of sad.  The first is to proceed on with the RealRoads project on my own and release it as an alternative option to the NWM until I could do the recoding, which would likely be painfully slow.  There's also a huge amount of coding to be done to make RealRoads a reality on their own, and as with most other efforts I've worked on, I pretty much tend to do this stuff on my own.  The second is to simply put this stuff on hiatus until the NWM is released, then start working on it again.  That could be a while, as there is nothing more true than the old saying about the next NAM- it'll be released when it's ready, and it'll be ready... when it's ready.  We're about six months out from the last release, there were two releases in 2009, and my best guess is that there will be another release this year.  Beyond that... who knows?

So, like I said, I'm bummed.

* * *

As what Alex wrote sunk in, I finished these up.

The brown squares are override artifacts seen during dragging that would be fixed in a final implementation.

Let me know what you think, folks.  I feel pretty much stopped at the moment.


D. Edgren

Please call me David...

Three Rivers Region- A collaborative development of the SC4 community
The 3RR Quick Finder [linkie]

I aten't dead.  —  R.I.P. Granny Weatherwax

Skype: davidredgren


Well they look great  :thumbsup:, and no matter what happens you've learnt more about overrides which you can use again :)

Why not make a RealRoads Override Network, like SAM/RHW/NWM? That way theres RealRoads and NWM. You've done enough overrides that I bet you could make your own network.



That really is a big setback, Dave.  &mmm

Of course I could spend this whole post being sympathetic, but there's no time for that. Here's what I think about the two options: If you decide to continue finishing the RealRoads, you could release them, with the warning that it won't work with NWM, as an interim measure, while the RealRoads are recoded. I understand a little of how tedious it can be to have to go back and change hexadecimal numbers (though not, of course, on the same scale as this), so I can certainly understand why this option is unattractive to you, perhaps you could enlist the help of some other members in this process? The other option is to put the RealRoads, on an indefinite hiatus until the NWM is released. During the time it is on hiatus, you could probably find something else to work on that would be equally exciting. In short, everyone faces setbacks in their projects, and in life. If this sort of thing were easy, everyone woud be doing it. That's why we admire you, Dave. Don't let this setback get you down. As Jonathan said, you'll learn more about it. I don't much care for the saying itsself, but in this situation "What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger".

Sincerest Best Wishes,
SimCity Aviation Group
I miss you, Adrian

Ryan B.

I'd keep on truckin' with the RealRoads thing, David.  What you've created is light years ahead of what Maxis felt like doing.

My advice is to not let the NAM/NWM thing get you down.  The RealRoads, whichever form they end up coming in, will definitely be in demand.


I, too, say you should keep working on the RealRoads, with a warning that once the NWM is released, RealRoads and NWM will not be compatible until either one or both are recoded for compatibility.


Popping in... let everyone know that our great friend Dustin's (thundercrack83) SC4D Hall of Fame mayor's diary Commonwealth of Marathon [linkie] is just over 30 views away from 100,000.  I hope that I'll be one of many folks congratulating him on this achievement.  Marathon has always been a great read, and I can't count the number of amazing things I've seen there that I would do myself if I was half as talented as Dustin has turned out to be.


D. Edgren

Please call me David...

Three Rivers Region- A collaborative development of the SC4 community
The 3RR Quick Finder [linkie]

I aten't dead.  —  R.I.P. Granny Weatherwax

Skype: davidredgren


David, my apologies if I deflated things for you last night.  :(

That's one of the unfortunate things about RUL 0x10000002.  As I've learned in my 3 years of editing it, I would say that it's a very powerful, but very sensitive file.  The puzzle piece RUL (0x10000000) is a comparatively sturdy and it's more easy to contain stuff in it and diagnose problems, but all the other RULs that deal with draggable networks are trickier.  In fact, in the early days of the transit modding world, RUL 0x10000002 was not really used all that much.  When I arrived in 2006, it was the smallest of the three main RUL files, at about 4200 lines of code (including the 280 lines or so for the original RHW public alpha) and 183KB in size.  

The problem was being effectively able to control the overrides without them running wild or introducing bugs to the base network.  There was some success with using "triggers" in Individual Network RULs, but there were significant limits to it.  The RHW was, in fact, problematic back then because it involved a triggerless side-by-side override of the old "ANT Network" based entirely out of RUL 0x10000002.  (In fact, I remember Tropod warning qurlix about it in an old thread.)

Once that was solved with the introduction of Starter Piece-based Override Networks as part of the Draggable GLR system released as part of the June 2007 NAM (developed primarily by memo and smoncrie), development with RUL 0x100000002 went absolutely beserk, because we could exercise a far more contained control flow over it.  The file is now the largest of the three main RULs, at over 80,000 lines (about 19 times larger) and a 3.85MB filesize.  Without that development, there would have been no SAM, no HSR, no RAM, no NWM and the RHW would have probably reached a dead-end long ago, or be drowning in puzzle pieces.  

Like Jonathan, I don't think any of the work you've done thus far is for naught, and I believe the best solution here would be to use an Override Network/Puzzle Drag system, as it would allow RealRoads and the NWM to peacefully co-exist, and, in fact, develop in parallel, without causing either to require significant re-coding.  I can easily create a new starter for a "RealRoads Dashed Line set", copy-paste the 1-tile NWM Network RULs in and use a find-replace setup to change them to a new IID range.  At that point, you could add these double-line modifications in with too much difficulty.  It's far easier to snazz up something that's not being overridden (or re-overridden) than it is to snazz up the base network and have to re-override everything, if that makes sense.

I know you were kind of shooting for this to be a "default" for convenience, but looking at how people use the SAM, I don't think a Starter Piece set up will really hinder the popularity or ease of use of the Dashed-Line RealRoads.  Heck, I use SAM Set 7 (the asphalt set) more than I use the game's default "gray" streets, and I know others do as well.  

Don't get discouraged--I really want to see things work out here, and am more than happy to help make that happen.



as a question, are these real roads HD textures?
NAM + CAM + RAM + SAM, that's how I roll....


I know I can't say much for the technical aspects of implementation, but to touch on one of the points Alex/Jonathan suggested, I think a puzzle piece started override would be a fine option. It certainly wouldn't hinder use much I wouldn't think. Use of the SAM and draggable GLR seem to show that. I've even started using streets more now that I have the variety. In some way, I would even push for this method of development. While they would be good as a default, I can think of a few implementations of it where it would look out of place in a non rural setting. I know wealth overrides and other texture triggers exist, but that seems like it could cause issues similar to what sidewalks experience in the game (switching wealth textures left and right). Granted, that's based almost entirely off specualtion as to the ultimate design and implementation of the Real Roads, but if it can be done as a basic override as Alex suggested, it seems that it still can do everything it is designed to do. The puzzle pieces look like they could plop in just as they otherwise would have as well.

Also, thanks for noting Dustin's 100k milestone. I'll be sure to hop on over to commend him on the achievement.