NWM (Network Widening Mod) - Development and Support

[metarvo]

the lack of natural diagonals on the Street network

This right here is a turn-off for me, unfortunately, unless diagonal OWR-1 puzzle pieces or some other method could be used to fill this gap.  The OWR-1 as it is now has diagonal functionality, whereas the proposed OWS (One Way Street) might not from the sounds of things.

Even so, the idea for a OWS is a good one, and fills a gap of its own in SC4's transit system.  There have been a number of times where I wanted an OWS, like near a school for example, but had to make do with an OWR because that's all I had.  It would also be groundbreaking in that it would be the first new network to be based on the Street network, which would provide additional balance to the game.



Would this be an additional network, or would it permanently replace the OWR-1, which some may still wish to build?

[z]

This right here is a turn-off for me, unfortunately, unless diagonal OWR-1 puzzle pieces or some other method could be used to fill this gap.  The OWR-1 as it is now has diagonal functionality, whereas the proposed OWS (One Way Street) might not from the sounds of things.

From what Alex has previously said to me, it should be possible to create diagonal versions of these that are much like the current diagonal streets without too much trouble, and this would be in the plan.

Would this be an additional network, or would it permanently replace the OWR-1, which some may still wish to build?

What Alex and I were discussing would be a replacement for the OWR-1, which so far does not seem to be heavily used.  But if people want to keep the OWR-1, perhaps it would be possible to build an OWS-2?  This would have the advantage that the capacity per lane would be identical to regular streets.  Alex, how much additional work would building an OWS-2 from scratch take?

If an OWS-2 requires a lot more work than converting the OWR-1, then it may simply come down to the question:  Which do people want more, an OWR-1 or an OWS-1?

[Tarkus]

BTW, just read this wiki article of NWM, and it mentions this single-tile avenue called NMAVE-4. Is it still in plans? Also, it mentions some picture as a proof-of-concept, i would really like to see that picture (couldn't find it from google) just out of curiosity.

The NMAVE-4 is indeed still planned, though it's unknown when it'll actually be included in the NWM.  The first proof-of-concept appeared in the T-RAM thread back in January 2009:



It was retextured and given a transition to the Road network while Version 1.0 was in development--this image coming from page 61 of this thread:



Currently, much of the RULing is in place, and the base network pieces are as well.  There are, however, no intersections right now.

This right here is a turn-off for me, unfortunately, unless diagonal OWR-1 puzzle pieces or some other method could be used to fill this gap.  The OWR-1 as it is now has diagonal functionality, whereas the proposed OWS (One Way Street) might not from the sounds of things.

From what Alex has previously said to me, it should be possible to create diagonal versions of these that are much like the current diagonal streets without too much trouble, and this would be in the plan.

Yes, that is correct--it's possible to override the Diagonal Streets Plugin functionality, just as was done with the Diagonal SAM.

Would this be an additional network, or would it permanently replace the OWR-1, which some may still wish to build?

That's the big question right now, and the decision on that will probably depend a large part on user feedback.  Another question along those lines would be whether or not to continue expanding the OWR-1 network's functionality after the OWS arrives.

It would also be groundbreaking in that it would be the first new network to be based on the Street network

Well, on the grounds of Street-based overrides, it'd be the ninth, counting all the SAM variations.  Though it'd be the first to do something different with the Street functionality.  Interestingly, around the time the NWM project began, there was actually the idea of a "Stravenue" (a mythical dual-tile Street-based network) thrown around, too.  Never made it off the drawing board, though the OWS would kind of fulfill that idea to an extent.

But if people want to keep the OWR-1, perhaps it would be possible to build an OWS-2?  This would have the advantage that the capacity per lane would be identical to regular streets.  Alex, how much additional work would building an OWS-2 from scratch take?

If an OWS-2 requires a lot more work than converting the OWR-1, then it may simply come down to the question:  Which do people want more, an OWR-1 or an OWS-1?

If there's an OWR-1 and no OWS-1, I'm a little confused as to how an OWS-2 would fit into the whole functionality scheme, as it would have a lesser capacity than the OWR-1 but more lanes.  That seems to go against the notion of functionally differentiating the 1-lane network from the 2-lane. 

An OWS-2 would require a bit more work than an OWS-1 as well--everything that's needed for the OWS-1 except the RULs and part of the paths is essentially in place through the OWR-1.

-Alex

[ScottFTL]

There has been considerable demand for "One-Way Streets" (not Roads) for awhile now, and after some discussion with z, I'm looking at the possibility of converting the OWR-1 network over from an One Way Road-based override to a Street-based override to fill that need.

The OWS-1 would be more realistic from a capacity standpoint.  The current OWR-1 has the same capacity as the OWR-3, but an OWS-1 would have 40% of the capacity compared to OWR-3.  Since it would look the same visually, I'd vote for conversion of OWR-1 to OWS-1 rather than maintaining both networks in the NWM.  If you want the higher capacity, you can upgrade to OWR-3.

[metarvo]

Well, when it's put that way, I vote for the OWS-1 to replace the OWR-1.  The truth is that the capacity wouldn't be that high on a real OWR-1, anyway, so the OWS-1 seems to make more sense.

[GDO29Anagram]

Random thought: Technically the default Road network would be seen as a "MAVE-2," right...?

And another thing: Would NWM filler pieces eventually be made, like what's been done with the RHW? I believe they could come in handy...

[Ciuu96]

I also vote for OWS-1 to replace OWR-1, the capacity isn't currently very logical and OWS would certainly make much more sense. I also don't see so many uses for OWR as for other NWM-networks, i think OWS would be at same stage in usefulness with the other NWM-networks.

About the style of the (possible) OWS, could it be little more wider than the OWR-1? I mean, OWR looks just weird because there is only one small lane and huge sidewalks, it would look nicer if the lane would be a little bit wider. If the OWS will never be made, i would also think this as a good improvement for the current OWR.

Also thanks for the pictures and info about the NMAVE-4, it looks good! 

[j-dub]

And another thing: Would NWM filler pieces eventually be made, like what's been done with the RHW? I believe they could come in handy...

@GDO29Anagram: I got some good news for you right now. Let me give you a hint, you see the neighbor connection pieces in the NWM? They can be used just like that! I know one person has demonstrated their ability to use neighbor connection NWM pieces like fillers right next to TuLEPs for tight spots. I too, also use those NWM neighbor connection pieces for filler pieces.

As for OWS,

OWR looks just weird because there is only one small lane and huge sidewalks, it would look nicer if the lane would be a little bit wider. If the OWS will never be made, i would also think this as a good improvement for the current OWR.

When I have been on certain one way streets, they basically just take a two-way street and omit the one lane by making either one of the side's parking only, which could work for either case of OWR-1 or OWS.

[z]

If there's an OWR-1 and no OWS-1, I'm a little confused as to how an OWS-2 would fit into the whole functionality scheme, as it would have a lesser capacity than the OWR-1 but more lanes.  That seems to go against the notion of functionally differentiating the 1-lane network from the 2-lane.

It's true; basically we're running into the fundamental game limitations of the way capacity is based on the number of tiles, and not number of lanes.  So the street capacity of OWS-2 would make sense when compared to other streets, but not when compared to OWR-1.  On the other hand, if we do an OWS-1, then

The OWS-1 would be more realistic from a capacity standpoint.  The current OWR-1 has the same capacity as the OWR-3, but an OWS-1 would have 40% of the capacity compared to OWR-3.  Since it would look the same visually, I'd vote for conversion of OWR-1 to OWS-1 rather than maintaining both networks in the NWM.  If you want the higher capacity, you can upgrade to OWR-3.

Took the words right out of my mouth...

And a very important point to consider is this:

An OWS-2 would require a bit more work than an OWS-1 as well--everything that's needed for the OWS-1 except the RULs and part of the paths is essentially in place through the OWR-1.

We don't want you to do more work than necessary, Alex.    And it appears that the availability of a diagonal OWS-1 has assuaged the worries of those who were hesitant about it.  So at this point, I don't see any reason not to go that route (no pun intended), especially since it seems to have unanimous support so far.

[jondor]

When I first read the proposal this morning, I was against the OWS idea, but after several hours and a few comments from other people, it sounds like a much better idea.  The capacity issue doesn't bother me much since it's a limitation we just have to deal with in SC4.  But a single lane road looks a little weird on such a wide tile.  With a planter strip and some t-21'd trees, it would look less awkward as a street-based network.

[jdenm8]

While using streets would be more realistic, I'm just hesitant about it.

And to 'Not that many people use OWR-1 anyway' comments, just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's not used.

For example:


Also, some networks, like AVE-2, could use T21s too. I have tried this myself (with disastrous results) because it just looks plain weird. Maybe some young trees and double streetlights in the median?

Although, If we went down the street path, we could have proper draggable transitions then.

[travismking]

I use OWR-1 often in w2w "older" areas of my cities as kind of alleys, it works well, and looks good. but i think as a street based network it might be better for this, although i didnt read it all (dont have time, i will tomorrow) so i dont really know what the difference between the current OWR based variant and the street based one

[noahclem]

I'd also vote for replacement of OWR-1's with OWS-1's.

I haven't had much of a chance to play with 1-lane networks but look forward to doing so when I can get around to it. Seems like it'd be cool for an old-world city center using something like Glenni's OWR-1 W2W stuff on Simtrop.

While I'm posting, a couple requests:

NWM/T-RAM integration
Elevated NWM/TuLeps
OWR-3/RHW-6 transition

Thanks for everything 

[Dexter]

Whilst this sounds like a good idea, what will happen with regards to regular streets that cross the OWS-1 network?  Will any street that touches it turn in to a one way street, like what happens with the SAM mod when you attempt to join any different variations together?  If this is the case, I am strongly against the idea as it be practically useless in a city environment.

BTW that NMAVE-4 looks great, keep up the great work Tarkus - I hope it makes its way into the next version

[Nego]

I'm still on the fence about this.

The only way I will vote 'Yes' for the OWR-1 to be changed to OWS-1 if the textures stay the same, it can transition to OWR-2, and if it has better diagonal functionality than the current street network. In other words it will be able to be dragged out diagonally more than one tile at a time.

I like the idea of this because having a one lane network being a street network causes it to have a lower capacity and that makes it more realistic. It's better than having a 3-Lane network be the same capacity as a 1-Lane network.



A few requests:
➔A Non-Puzzle Piece transitions (like RHW MIS to OWR-2) from MAVE-4 to OWR-2 and from MAVE-6 to OWR-3
➔NWM TuLEPs

[travismking]

well the diagonals are never gunna happen on street networks,thats hard coded iirc. This is a major drawback for me too,i hate drawing diagonals one tile at a time, but its better than not having them at all :p

[firefighter57]

Heck no is all I have to say!    I love the OWR-1.   As a matter of fact, I wish it could be expanded to have one lane of traffic and parking on either side of the one lane.  I think that would look sick and be very realistic (at least for those of us who love to model cities after NY)

[Nego]

As a matter of fact, I wish it could be expanded to have one lane of traffic and parking on either side of the one lane.

I personally love the idea. I'm still on the fence until I find out weather or not the textures will be changes to look more the street textures because if they are, than I'm totally against the idea. But other than that, I'm totally for the idea of the switch form ORW-1 to OWS-1.

Heck no is all I have to say!    I love the OWR-1.

If you don't mind me asking, why are you against the idea of switching from OWR-1 to OWS-1? Maybe we can improve upon the idea to make it suit your needs.

[z]

well the diagonals are never gunna happen on street networks,thats hard coded iirc. This is a major drawback for me too,i hate drawing diagonals one tile at a time, but its better than not having them at all :p

It's worth recalling the current capabilities of diagonal streets, which would be extended to OWS-1.  They come in 5, 3, and one-tile lengths, along with a diagonal street puzzle piece, and diagonal to straight street transition pieces.  So you can do plop, plop, plop, and end up with 15 tiles of diagonal street.  (they connect automatically when you line them up.)  You can also bulldoze it a half tile at a time without wrecking the rest of it.  All in all, they're much easier to use than standard puzzle pieces.

[Jack_wilds]

The notion is worth further thought and -yes, it would fill a particular demand, hopefully its a simple thing to do that won't take a great amount of time to implement... 

...I'd also like one ways that would act as alleyways... 

...and I'd also like it that something can be worked  out for downtown, and other city places for road side parallel and angle parking and still have RCI function -even if the parking is just eye candy as it is in the JRJ mod