New way of HD rendering in any version of BAT4MAX using SC4 Model Tweaker

xannepan · October 09, 2013, 10:55:25 AM

Hi I just tried something cool and it seemed to work out. I think it has never been done or discussed before....

As some of you know for various reasons I still use chris sims version of bat4max most of the time. This version doesn't have the option for HD rendering. But at least on my PC it is really fast.

I just rendered a model double size, and then downscaled by 50% in the model in SC4ModelTweaker. Since the model tweaker does not affect the textures it turns out this is a quick way to get HD texture quality. The result is really stunning, see picture.

Unfortunately this course doesn't change anything with respect to memory issues of HD (model file size more than doubles), so we should be careful not to overuse it. I also am not completely sure the 50% zoom factor is correct. Maybe I can do with less. I don't think the difference between closest and before closest zoom in the game is 50%.

art128 · October 09, 2013, 11:05:26 AM

Rendering a x2 model... Does it make the render time longer?

Girafe · October 09, 2013, 11:07:40 AM

Indeed we found with Cédric interesting things with re-scaling models with Sc4ModelTweaker. Rendering tiny props with Simfox's BAT4MAX (I never used Chris's plugin) gives bad result, it's really blurred / moreover s3d are often bugging. However render it in bigger size with BAT4MAX and scaling down with Sc4ModelTweaker gives much better results.

After it was just an observation we did, but never dig further...

xannepan · October 09, 2013, 11:10:48 AM

Yes render time is longer... but nothing when compared to simfox BAT4MAX.. (BTW the relative slower rendering in SIMFOX has nothing to do with the model size alone.. it also uses the newer rendering engine of later versions of 3dsmax)

xannepan · October 09, 2013, 11:21:18 AM

Ah Girafe, thanks for mentioning it. Didn't want to claim IP that 's not mine

Anyway,I think it is good it is a topic in the forums now. Perhaps useful for other builders

-alex

Bipin · October 09, 2013, 12:35:49 PM

Are zoom 5 textures still grainy with this method, akin to how they are with SimFOx's HD render when viewed at zoom 5?

xannepan · October 09, 2013, 08:40:54 PM

Hey Bip,
I wouldn't be able to say, as I don't remember anymore how simfox implemented the rendering. But it would be easy for you to check...

Memory wise the simfox approach is more economic, as I believe it only affects the zoom 5 textures. The approach I described above affects textures (ie increases the size) for all zoom levels, while actually only needed for closest zoom.

Another way to do it more economically with sc4 model tweaker would probably be to render twice, normal size and double size. Then downscale the double size model with sc4 model tweaker and replace the zoom 5 textures and models from the normal size model by those in the downscaled double size model. Haven't tested that yet. The issue there may be a texture ID conflict, as I never paid attention to how texture IDs are build up with the BAT.

-Alex

MandelSoft · October 10, 2013, 01:26:05 AM

Well, if you are only using the Zoom 5 models and textures, and keep the TGI IDs the same, then there will be no conflicts once the files are merged properly.

noahclem · October 10, 2013, 03:56:33 AM

That's quite a clever idea Alex--and a beautiful building to boot

I'm not an expert on the subject, but it seems like having all the textures the larger size could potentially address complaints people have about graininess at Z5 (it's never bothered me too much but is noticeable if one is looking for it). I know that sounds like it shouldn't help but for some reason I feel like the game draws on multiple zoom level FSHs for what it displays and I just double-checked Gobias' terrain mod stuff and the FSH's for all zooms are 8 times larger than normal (64 times area), not just Z5. Or perhaps his stuff just avoids graininess because it's much more HD than standard 256px HD. There's a pretty good chance I don't know what I'm talking about here but just throwing a thought out.

At the least it's very good to have another method of HD rendering and it's always great to have more stuff in HD

jdenm8 · October 10, 2013, 06:49:06 AM

The process outlined here is very similar to how Simfox's renderer works to my knowledge. I can only see one difference, that this method still uses standard Z5 resolution textures (128x128), just maps them over a smaller area of the model whereas AFAIK Simfox's creates the Z5 textures at double the resolution and maps them onto a standard LOD.

You're not rendering a larger texture at all, you're creating more of them and reducing the size of the area on the object each one is mapped to.

This particular method will also have the downside of producing models with a higher polygon count than using Simfox's renderer, but still using the same (Or more) space for Texture storage.

Upside is this is also backwards compatible with the original BAT.

MandelSoft · October 10, 2013, 07:24:10 AM

Well, as far as I noticed, SimFox's render method does EXACTLY the same. The texture size is still the same, but the model gets split up in smaller parts.

I'd like to see a side-by-side comparision of both render strategies, both in Zoom 5 and Zoom 6.

jdenm8 · October 10, 2013, 08:22:04 AM

Quote from: MandelSoft on October 10, 2013, 07:24:10 AM
Well, as far as I noticed, SimFox's render method does EXACTLY the same. The texture size is still the same, but the model gets split up in smaller parts.

I'd like to see a side-by-side comparision of both render strategies, both in Zoom 5 and Zoom 6.

Huh. He always explained it by implying the texture size was doubled and also why they were incompatible with Software Mode.

xannepan · October 10, 2013, 09:01:48 AM

With the new method the texture size is certainly increased. Same goes for the initial LOD, but that one is scaled down in the tweaker.

In max there is NO difference in LOD poly count between the normal size and double size model. But the BAT script breaks up the LODs in smaller parts, depending on the absolute LOD size. So despite similar poly count of the LODs in max, the eventual sc4model file has higher poly count for the double-size model.

Anyway. Appart from some props I don't expect I will use this method for buildings. Just good to discuss, explore and document the possibilities here

NCGAIO · October 10, 2013, 10:18:07 AM

"I think it has never been done or discussed before...."

Somewhere in this discussion ... only the difference in rendering models on larger scale and replacing textures exactly as said later.

I confess that never quite understood aspects of the discussion on the larger textures (256) as a novelty if are something that many original models of game had ever used.

The limitation for BAT original might have been something like concern for performance or compatibility with previous material as textures on the grid.
Think the conclusion about it is always the same.

Very useful for CJs though indifferent for the simulation is painful for performance as apparently was the conclusion for the majority when recommend only for minors props.

Regarding the increase of polygons is interesting to note that this does not cause concern the majority of new creators just see what has been released for automata currently

The old graphic engine of P.P. should already be doing smoke to take the hit.

mrbisonm · October 10, 2013, 11:45:02 AM

What?

You mean.......I'm stunned......Wow, what a find. I will absolutely have to try this out on some of my Farmprops I am making, which need HD rendering, but because of some unknown things on my computer, I cannot use the HD render of BAT4MAX, but....I can run the SC4ModelTweaker, no problem. Now, if this works, I will be able to render my own props instead of begging and bother someone to do it for me. I try it this weekend. Excellent find!

Fred

xannepan · October 10, 2013, 12:00:05 PM

Glad this could help. Just try to experiment a bit with the scaling/downscaling factor. Not sure 200% / 50% is maybe too much.
And remember also to check if the occupant size property in the prop exemplar needs to be adjusted accordingly in the reader.
Good luck and let us know if it works or if you need help.

mrbisonm · October 10, 2013, 07:27:53 PM

Quoteoccupant size property in the prop exemplar

....

now, that's a problem though, because I have no idea what to do with this. Anyone knows what to change, where and how much?

I found the exemplar with the reader, but then what?
Thanks.

Fred

xannepan · October 11, 2013, 07:24:11 AM

open the sc4desc file of the prop with the reader. Then in the left pane select the exemplar. In the right pane you can now see the properties of the exemplar. Double click the occupant size. Change the three values (they represent the lod size), ie reduce them by the same factor as the scale factor you applied in model tweaker (50%). Make sure to hit apply before okay. Save the file and close the reader and you are done.

mrbisonm · October 11, 2013, 07:45:09 PM

Quote from: xannepan on October 11, 2013, 07:24:11 AM
open the sc4desc file of the prop with the reader. Then in the left pane select the exemplar. In the right pane you can now see the properties of the exemplar. Double click the occupant size. Change the three values (they represent the lod size), ie reduce them by the same factor as the scale factor you applied in model tweaker (50%). Make sure to hit apply before okay. Save the file and close the reader and you are done.

Thanks, much appreciated, now I need the time to render some props of my farmset.

Fred