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Three Rivers Region

Started by dedgren, December 20, 2006, 07:57:49 PM

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bat

Great work there, David! Looking forward to more.... ;)

ldvger

#9261
David-

I have no idea whatsoever about the technical aspects of Nam and Real Roads, but enough to follow that, as currently designed, the two will not be compatible, at least not at first, and that this has taken the wind out of your sails.  I have two ideas:

1.  NAM projects being what they are (i.e. ready when they are ready and not a moment before), I'd say go ahead and release your "beta" Real Roads with a HUGE caveat that they are NOT going to be compatible with the upcoming new NAM release...and maybe never will be.  Let folks decide for themselves whether or not they want to use either or both products and how they are going to use them.  This idea leaves you with a subset of two additional options:
     a.) re-work your Real Roads to be NAM compatible or
     b.) leave them as is

2.  In architecture, we have a saying when we hit a big snag: back to the drawing board.  It's not uncommon for a considerable amount of work to have already have been done on a project when it's discovered that the solution set is just not going to work.  Usually basic concepts can be retained, but often times almost the entire project has to be tossed into the round file.  This is why lots of architects don't make very much money...this happens more often than anyone in the business cares to admit.  If the cause of the rework is a change instigated on the client's end, we can back-charge the client for our time.  That happens maybe, optimistically, half of the time.  The rest of the time its a screw up on the architecture firm's part and the rework just has to be sucked up.  So, it seems to me you may have come across a "back to the drawing board" moment with the Real Roads.  As you are both the client AND the designer for this project, only you can determine if you want to redo the work or not.  Your basic concept hasn't changed in the least, which is good, but your method for implementing the solution requires modifying.  Again using architecture as an example, the structural engineer usually doesn't get to start on making a building buildable until the project is quite a ways down the road and often what the architect designed turns out to be unfeasible in terms of structure, so when the preliminary engineering comes back to the architect, the tweaking of the project begins in earnest.  In this case, you are the architect and the NAM folks are the engineer.  Alex (if I read his post correctly) has already proposed a fairly simple NAM (engineering) work around to help this compatibility issue with the Real Roads (architecture), but it sounds (to me, anyway) like it's a bit of a "duct tape and baling wire" fix that will work short term and that if you want true full compatibility between your work and NAM's, one side of the team is going to have to retrace steps quite a ways back and start over.  It doesn't sound like Alex and the NAM team are willing to do that, so maybe it's something you could consider.  I know it's a lot of work, but there are advantages:
     a.) it's a hard lesson learned about the importance of communication between teams trying to accomplish the same basic ends.  One burned, twice cautious.
     b.) it provides you the opportunity to fine tune all those skills, both new and previous, you used to get this far.  When I was learning drafting, the book I used told me to never erase...start over.  And so that's what I did for many years.  It made me a slow drafter in the beginning of my career, but it also made me the best drafter around (and I'm not bragging). 
     c.) there are likely areas in the Real Roads as they currently exist that you are not 100% gleeful about but in your enthusiasm to create a full set of new toys for us fans to use, you figure are either "good enough" or that you'l (maybe) go back and tweak later.  Starting over will allow you to achieve the level of perfection you require to staify yourself that you may not have been able to reach in the first iterations. 
     d.) think like the military: there's never time to do it right, but there's always time to do it over. 

As a last example, I am a knitter and I knit sweaters for myself and family members.  I started a sweater, very complex with lots of color pattern (known as a "Fair Isle") almost 20 years ago.  I knit the front, the back, one sleeve and half of the second sleeve, then got distracted with life and the sweater ended up going to sleep for about 12 years.  The last time I moved, I went through my huge box of yarn and old projects and found the sweater and decided to finish it.  When I sewed the shoulder seams together, I discovered that somehow, all those many years ago, I had knit one side of the front different than the other side of the front.  The sweater front had a "V" neckline with a knitted inset in the "V", so to fix the front of the garment, I had to unknit the inset and then unknit the side front side that was incorrectly knit.  In knitting, this is called "frogging" (because when you unknit something you rip it, rip it, rip it).  I reknit the front side , reknit the inset, and re-sewed the shoulder seams.  Then I finished the second sleeve, sewed up the side seams of the sweater body, sewed up the underarm seams of both sleeves, and sewed the sleeves into the body.  When I finally put the now completed sweater on, it fit horribly.  The shoulders were too wide and the tops of the sleeves, where they joined the body at the shoulder, were sticking up towards my head like wings.  Not only that but the colored horizontal bands across the body of the sweater did not match up with the same bands across the sleeves.  To fix it and make it right, I was going to have to disassemble the garment, frog both sleeves down to the elbows, unsew the inset from either side of the front, frog both front sides down about 6" (so as to make the shoulders narrower) and frog the sweater back down the same 6".  Then reknit sleeves from the elbow back up, the front and back from about the armpit back up, then resew the whole thing together.  It was SO much work I got discouraged and the sweater went back to sleep for a couple of years. 

Then I joined a knitting group and the first time we met I took what I was now calling "The 15 Year Sweater" with me to ask other knitter's advice.  I put it on and showed them what the problems were.  Everyone agreed that more than likely only I would ever be the only person to notice the garment's flaws.  Some expert knitters might see them, but chances were slim.  My fellow knitters left it up to me to decide, but the most important thing they asked me was "can YOU live with the flaws and will you wear and love the garment if you don't fix it".  I had to think about that for a while, but in the end, my answer was "no".  So...I spent another couple of months frogging and reknitting the sweater.  I wear it proudly now, although the sleeve caps are still not quite right.  I may, some day when I have no yarn and no money to buy any yarn, frog the sleeves out yet one last time, and try once again to satisfy my own need for the garment to be "just so".  But it's not likely.  I can live with it the way it is now:



"If at first you don't succeed, try, try, again".

If *I* had done the work on the Real Roads that you have, and I know you've done a lot, and *I* were faced with the situation you are faced with concerning them, I'd probably set them aside for a while and let the project ferment in the back of my brain for a while while I turned my attention to something else.  However, I would already know, in my heart of hearts, that I was really just getting my breath back and readying myself to "frog" my Real Roads and start over at the point where the least amount of re-work would be needed. 

So, that's my advice.  Set them aside, work on something else (I could suggest a few ideas, like plop/game water transitions...that's nut no one has successfully cracked yet), and then when the new NAM comes out, go back to the Real Roads and redo them so they are compatible. 

In the meantime, release what you've done so far as a beta and solicit feedback.

Lora/LD



RickD

I'm sorry to hear about the problems with the Real Roads. I have little to no modding knowledge so I can not give you any technical advice. But I can offer you my opinion as a devoted player.

I like the Real Roads very much and I am anxious for their release. But I must admit that I never really liked the idea of them completely replacing the standard maxis road. The Real Road looks great in rural settings. But I just can not imagine having them in my CBDs.
So implementing them as a separate puzzle piece/override network sound like a good solution to me. Even if this means a longer wait for the release.

However, I might be completely wrong due to my lack of technical knowledge. ;)
My name is Raphael.
Visit my MD: Empire Bay (My old MD: Santa Barbara County)

metarvo

Well, it would appear that the Real Roads have run into one of those orange-and-white striped barricades.  I'm sorry about the compatibility issues, David, but I'm willing to wait as long as it takes for this to be resolved.  From what I've seen, I know I have a lot to look forward to when the Real Roads are ready.  At least you have some good textures.
Find my power line BAT thread here.
Check out the Noro Cooperative.  What are you waiting for?  It even has electricity.
Want more? Try here.  For even more electrical goodies, look here.
Here are some rural power lines.

mightygoose

i would rather we went back one step now, than 51 steps in 50 steps time no?
NAM + CAM + RAM + SAM, that's how I roll....

dedgren

#9265
Just a quick text post to respond to several of the comments in the ongoing discussion.

I am disappointed, yes, but certainly not ready to give up on the concept.  The "default set" RealRoads were intended to be part of a far larger effort that essentially completely made over the game's two lane roads and streets that would be integrated with several new SAM-based sets.  This is where, responding to Rick's (RickD) observation, city and town roads and streets would have come from.

Thanks, Lora- your insight is always keen, and certainly worthy of more than the K-point it garnered.  That, btw, is a gorgeous sweater.

Thanks as well to all those who have provided words of encouragement.  It is profoundly important to keep the NAM from splintering into a bunch of fragmented projects, even if they are really nice.  Alex (Tarkus) is thus absolutely correct in articulating the need for my development work to remain properly subordinate to the NAM.  I would be a pretty selfish guy to undo (or even make more complicated) the ongoing work of so many.

John (mightygoose), no, the RealRoad textures are not HD.  They are just (as are most transportation textures these days- mine and otherwise) very carefully crafted.

* * *

So, what I plan to do is to complete the set for now as either a SAM set or whatever other "starter-piece" variety Alex would provide NAM-space for.  We'll go from there.

Again, thanks to all for your constant support.


David

533951
D. Edgren

Please call me David...

Three Rivers Region- A collaborative development of the SC4 community
The 3RR Quick Finder [linkie]


I aten't dead.  —  R.I.P. Granny Weatherwax

Skype: davidredgren

Ryan B.

A continued  &apls to you for your efforts, David.  They definitely don't go unnoticed, and all of us here are extremely grateful for everything you do.

If you're still interested in T21ing, I can have some stuff for you to work with soon, I think.   :)

just_a_guy

I first want to apologize for not stopping by to say hi in a while. It sure seems a lot has happened.

I am very sorry to hear all the problems your amazing project has faced. But well, best quality is always better than best timing. All your efforts are greatly appreciated no matter how long it takes.
Here's a quote that I think goes well with the situation: Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising every time we fall

Great progress though! I'm speechless after seeing your outstanding results. &apls
Come and check out my BATting works at:
   
Just_a_Guy's attempts at BATing

girlfromverona

Awesome! I'm glad you're still going ahead with them. A new SAM set would definitely be useful!  :)

Livin in Sim

Hi, David,

Glad to see you're back and feeling better.  Sorry for not saying that sooner, but I've been a bit busy at the "other site".   ::) :D  Hopefully you can relate, still, I should have dropped a post during your time out, mea culpa.  At any rate, I'm glad that you're still doing what you do best.

Bye for now.
--Liv

dedgren

#9270
Just a teaser for tomorrow's post looking at the region through some pictures from the Pineshore Herald-Gazette.





Been an awful RL week with an Alaska Court of Appeals brief due Friday.  Time for some fun!

See you all tomorrow.


David

537390
D. Edgren

Please call me David...

Three Rivers Region- A collaborative development of the SC4 community
The 3RR Quick Finder [linkie]


I aten't dead.  —  R.I.P. Granny Weatherwax

Skype: davidredgren

pvarcoe

Hi David

Good to see you up and at em!
Take it slow my friend.

Phil

dedgren

#9272
The Pineshore Herald-Gazette traces its roots back to the Herald, a single page broadside that was first published in 1840.



The Herald was founded by Robert Pouilly-Fuissé, a theretofore unknown itinerant Frenchman.  He was, as they say, a character...



The Herald was published every evening except Sundays in the early years, and soon grew to be the the definitive chronicle of life in the region.  Grandiose or mundane, sacred or profane, it it went on in Three Rivers Region, you'd find it in the Herald.



After the First World War, the Herald absorbed its smaller morning competitor, the Gazette, and was renamed the Herald-Gazette.  It continues to this day to be an evening paper six days of the week, with a morning edition only on Sundays.  Its corporate offices are at the foot of Market Street in Pineshore, a location they have occupied for over 140 years.  In 2001, the printing presses and distribution center was moved to a new 70,000 square foot/6,500 square meter state-of-the-art facility west of Richwood adjacent to the international airport.  The paper has an average daily circulation of just over 51,000 copies, a somewhat larger figure than the Duluth News-Tribune [linkie] but only about half that of the Winnipeg Free Press [linkie].  Many 3RR residents take all three papers, as the Herald-Gazette is almost entirely devoted to news of the region, and the Duluth and Winnipeg papers hardly acknowledge that 3RR even exists.

Here, then, are a sample of photos of life in the region published in the Herald-Gazette over the years.

  People.  As the old saying goes, "If you haven't had your picture in the Herald, you must live somewhere else."







  Passages.  If you have a connection with Three Rivers Region, sooner or later you will appear here.





  The Weather.  The Herald-Gazette doesn't just report the weather...







  Small Town Life.  The Herald-Gazette makes a special effort to report the goings-on in the regions villages and hamlets.



  Business and Advertising  Large and small, the region's businesses have appeared in the pages of the Herald-Gazette for over a century and a half.





  Goings-on  If it happens in the region, you know you will be reading about it in the Herald-Gazette.





  The Zoo  For some reason, the 3RR Zoo (formerly the Pineshore Zoological Society) has been a favorite of Herald-Gazette readers over the years.







* * *

So, there you have the Pineshore Herald-Gazette, a chronicle of the events in Three Rivers Region since 1840.  Its archives are a treasure trove for anyone interested in 3RR, and we'll be seeing more of them, you can be sure.

As a final note, who can tell me why Simon deBeauville Grand would turn up in the paper?  You've read about him before...

This has been much-needed fun.


David

NOTEIt would neither be fair or right for me not to acknowledge the source of most of these wonderful no-copyright pictures.  It is a site called Black and ### (the actual site name is, errr... not printable here) and it is well worth a visit (I note that there is an occasional picture displaying nudity there, but certainly nothing gratuitous or offensive).  There are strange things there beyond imagining, and I thank its proprietors profusely for making the pics shown on it available.  If you would like the link, please drop me a PM.  All other pics used as a basis for the above parody I am pretty sure are in the public domain. -DE

538115
D. Edgren

Please call me David...

Three Rivers Region- A collaborative development of the SC4 community
The 3RR Quick Finder [linkie]


I aten't dead.  —  R.I.P. Granny Weatherwax

Skype: davidredgren

Tarkus

Quote from: dedgren on January 31, 2010, 07:47:35 PM
This has been much-needed fun.

I fully concur--the newspaper really goes a long way to helping establish the "sense of place" in 3RR, and its rather quirky denizens over the years.  I've always found small town papers rather interesting reads, and while Pineshore is actually rather large, it seems like it has maintained that sort of feel and was rather entertaining!

Quote from: dedgren on January 31, 2010, 07:47:35 PM
As a final note, who can tell me why Simon deBeauville Grand would turn up in the paper?  You've read about him before...

Fur-trapper, after whom the Grand Meridian (95W longitude) is named.  Except he died at 47 in the obit, whereas his earlier appearance mentioned he died at 37 . . . hmm . . .

-Alex

metarvo

It looks like the classic 3RR that I remember has returned.  It's good to know some of the history and news that has taken place in this spectacular region, and it makes it seem more like a second home all the time.  The newspapers also remind me of the good old SC2k days.  SC2k had a newspaper system (an ancestor of SC4's news ticker display) which would give a combination of useful city data and hilarious headlines and stories.  I'm looking forward to more, David.  :)
Find my power line BAT thread here.
Check out the Noro Cooperative.  What are you waiting for?  It even has electricity.
Want more? Try here.  For even more electrical goodies, look here.
Here are some rural power lines.

WC_EEND

I alsways like newspapers made for CJ/MD's and yours looks very real. It really looks like a newspaper that has been saved for quite some years.

On a side note: a Pouilly-Fuissé is a kind of Burgundy white wine
RIP Adrian (adroman), you were a great friend

My LOT thread                                    

SCAG BAe146/Avro RJ Project

mightygoose

Quote from: WC_EEND on February 01, 2010, 07:19:13 AM
I alsways like newspapers made for CJ/MD's and yours looks very real. It really looks like a newspaper that has been saved for quite some years.

On a side note: a Pouilly-Fuissé is a kind of Burgundy white wine

i do love pouilly-fuisse but my personal favourite among white burgundies is a Montagny 1er Cru [linkie]

Sorry my luxury bartending experience popping through there,

great to see the history of a place so well represented.
NAM + CAM + RAM + SAM, that's how I roll....

Battlecat

Fantastic newspaper updates!  Great to see something new and unexpected! 

Ryan B.

I make a point to read this paper every morning.  Nice work, David!

mayorfabz

Would The Herald-Gazette take any subscriptions by chance ? I would buy one!
Glad to see you back, Mister.
Fabien