RHW (RealHighway) - Development and Support

[GDO29Anagram]

[H]ave you forgotten what Tarkus says? "We like to surprise people." It's just that I don't have as much cards up my sleeve as Alex or the others do.

Obviously, others have their own cards to play: Shadow Assassin's FARHW-4 to TuLEP pieces and other FARHW content, Maarten's ramps, Vince's FlexFly, Jondor's rail-TuLEP crossing pieces, the RHW-4 Diag B-Ramp,... While others simply don't have a pack of cards to use. Though many of the NAMites probably know quite a number of things that others have planned for, all in all, it's probably just a sample of what everyone is planning individually.

It's just the tip of the proverbial iceberg...

and of course, the more people that know, the less likely it is to stay secret.   

Well said, and it would also ruin the surprise.

[A]nyone remember FLEXFly?

Yes, I remember. XD I remember seeing the very first pictures of it. At first I thought it was just another set of puzzle pieces. In fact,...

Click it for full.





More info will come later......

Vince

_{Welcome to page 401, oddly enough.}

[banditp61]

 

I can't wait for part 2, and NAM 4.2.

[Twyla]

Okay....  This is probably nothing more than a stab in the dark combined with wishful thinking, but several disparate things I've seen regarding SC4 and RHW coalesced into an odd sort of notion:

Part the First:  The 'impossibility' for RHW to utilize tunnels
Part the Second:  DIPs, as brought up concerning a potential Street-Widening Mod
Part the Third:  Various RUL-based over-rides in general, which RHW is brimming with
Part the Fourth:  Blue Lightning's Compact RHW-4 Bridge
Part the Fifth:  Tarkus' demonstration of the forthcoming FlexSPUI
Part the Sixth:  The general 'default' interconnectivity between Avenues, MHW, and RHW
Part the Seventh: FLexible UnderPasses and Underground Puzzle Pieces in general


As anyone who has dared to experiment has discovered, all SC4 networks (including the 'dirt road' used by RHW) have the auto-drag capacity to form tunnels - as demonstrated in the picture above - and I believe this may be the key to 'unlocking' the ability for functional tunnels with RHW.

Again, this may simply be a stab in the dark - particularly as I'm not particularly savvy about SC4's inner workings - but I am inclined to believe that it may be the tunnel entrances themselves which hold the key.  Admittedly, it was a misunderstanding of a quirk of the 'DrawPaths' cheat that started me thinking on this, but further experimentation led down a path of thought which I wouldn't have considered otherwise.

Long story short, the tunnel entrances - for lack of better terminology to describe this concept - act as transitions; much in the same fashion as FlUPs and RHW ramps and transitions.  What makes them different - and may be the secret to functional tunnels - is that the entrances, in essence, transition between the 'surface' and 'underground'.  And although Streets have the same lack of automatically placing tunnel entrances (at least my install does), there are quite a number of mods and other add-ons which bring Streets up to par with all other base Maxis networks - including EMHW, Monorail, etc.

Seeing as the 'dirt road' RHW is based on equates to Streets much the same way as OWRs do to Roads, the 'unlocking' of tunnels for RHW is likely related.

On a similar note, rather ironically, knowledgeable investigation of this possible lead may also unravel a solution to the quandry with multi-lane RHW bridges.

[Terring7]

http://www.youtube.com/v/Yd9MumOT9Po

Brilliant work
However has this technique some limits? I mean, it is possible to make flexible railroads and streets?

[jondor]

Okay....  This is probably nothing more than a stab in the dark combined with wishful thinking, but several disparate things I've seen regarding SC4 and RHW coalesced into an odd sort of notion:

Part the First:  The 'impossibility' for RHW to utilize tunnels
Part the Second:  DIPs, as brought up concerning a potential Street-Widening Mod
Part the Third:  Various RUL-based over-rides in general, which RHW is brimming with
Part the Fourth:  Blue Lightning's Compact RHW-4 Bridge
Part the Fifth:  Tarkus' demonstration of the forthcoming FlexSPUI
Part the Sixth:  The general 'default' interconnectivity between Avenues, MHW, and RHW
Part the Seventh: FLexible UnderPasses and Underground Puzzle Pieces in general

[image]
As anyone who has dared to experiment has discovered, all SC4 networks (including the 'dirt road' used by RHW) have the auto-drag capacity to form tunnels - as demonstrated in the picture above - and I believe this may be the key to 'unlocking' the ability for functional tunnels with RHW.

Again, this may simply be a stab in the dark - particularly as I'm not particularly savvy about SC4's inner workings - but I am inclined to believe that it may be the tunnel entrances themselves which hold the key.  Admittedly, it was a misunderstanding of a quirk of the 'DrawPaths' cheat that started me thinking on this, but further experimentation led down a path of thought which I wouldn't have considered otherwise.

Long story short, the tunnel entrances - for lack of better terminology to describe this concept - act as transitions; much in the same fashion as FlUPs and RHW ramps and transitions.  What makes them different - and may be the secret to functional tunnels - is that the entrances, in essence, transition between the 'surface' and 'underground'.  And although Streets have the same lack of automatically placing tunnel entrances (at least my install does), there are quite a number of mods and other add-ons which bring Streets up to par with all other base Maxis networks - including EMHW, Monorail, etc.

Seeing as the 'dirt road' RHW is based on equates to Streets much the same way as OWRs do to Roads, the 'unlocking' of tunnels for RHW is likely related.

On a similar note, rather ironically, knowledgeable investigation of this possible lead may also unravel a solution to the quandry with multi-lane RHW bridges.

Unfortunately, this is a case of "been there, done that".  No offense intended, but if the answer really was that simple, we would have RHW tunnels already.

There have been attempts to reenable the Dirtroad network's tunnels and while it is possible to correctly specify a model and paths and have the game successfully draw the tunnel, it is ultimately non-functional.  The traffic simulator simply ignores the connection altogether.

There is a post somewhere (I think it's in this thread) with an attachment that contains an exemplar that enables the Dirtroad tunnel visually.  But unfortunately the proper functionality of the tunnel seems to be locked in the EXE and cannot be changed in any way we are capable of.

It took quite a bit of skulduggery to fix the other major RHW issue (it's non-appearance on the Region Transport Dataview) and I only consider it a 90% success to be honest, since it's a clever workaround with a few caveats and subtle gotchas, but cracking the tunnel problem seems to be a lot trickier and is likely going to require much. much more skulduggery with lots of caveats and subtle gotchas of its own.

[noahclem]

Brilliant work
However has this technique some limits? I mean, it is possible to make flexible railroads and streets?

To the best of my knowledge there it is entirely possible to use the same "waveride" (I forget which letters are supposed to be capitalized  ) technology on rail or other networks. The problem is the effort, time, and talent required for such pieces. Despite being discovered by Vince (Blue Lightning) a couple years back, to my knowledge there are still only two pieces utilizing the technology (FLEX-Fly and the new SPUI) and two people who have created such pieces, Alex (Tarkus) and Vince.

One example of a possible future use for "waveride" technology would be something to do with separated-grade crossings for fractional angle stuff--as was discussed in the RHW support and development thread sometime back (I suggested puzzle pieces but it was pointed out that a waveride solution could make more sense). Various other RHW-versions have been discussed and I believe a rail viaduct version was ruled out due to the amount of work required.

[Tarkus]

I can't wait for part 2, and NAM 4.2.

Thanks--glad you're looking forward to it!  Though to be technical, it's the RHW that'll be Version 4.2 . . . the next NAM will actually be Version 30.

There is a post somewhere (I think it's in this thread) with an attachment that contains an exemplar that enables the Dirtroad tunnel visually.  But unfortunately the proper functionality of the tunnel seems to be locked in the EXE and cannot be changed in any way we are capable of.

It's actually on Page 45 of the NAM: Development thread, when meister1235 made a suggestion much along the lines of what Twyla described.  It's one of those weird things that we haven't found a way to circumvent. 

Regarding WAVERide stuff (I think that's the correct capitalization ), Noah is correct.  Technically, I should add, as far as the game is concerned, only the little "construction site" tile is puzzle-based.  It treats the rest of the construct like it is a draggable network item (albeit a highly-specialized one), so the coding process is much like creating another override network--we generally have to modify all three RULs involved in the main NAM Controller file to create these pieces.  We'll slowly expand the repertoire of WAVERide items as time and energy allow, with priority based on what projects are perceived to be the most feasible.

Oh, and regarding the "secret network" . . . no comment . . .



-Alex

[Ramona Brie]

Well, at least I'm excited for SecretNetwork, whatever it might be.

[io_bg]

Great video! Can't wait to hear more about that secret network When will it be revealed?

[Kitsune]

There is a post somewhere (I think it's in this thread) with an attachment that contains an exemplar that enables the Dirtroad tunnel visually.  But unfortunately the proper functionality of the tunnel seems to be locked in the EXE and cannot be changed in any way we are capable of.

So is it confirmed the exe has the instructions to draw the dirt road tunnel and its just locked? If so, then all we need is a dll to unlock the code in much the same matter the extra cheats dll was made.

[jondor]

So is it confirmed the exe has the instructions to draw the dirt road tunnel and its just locked? If so, then all we need is a dll to unlock the code in much the same matter the extra cheats dll was made.

The tunnel draws just fine, and the paths are valid (automata can be seen randomly using the tunnel and it can be driven through in U-Driveit Mode), but the problem is that the Traffic Simulator does not use it.  No actual simulator traffic will ever use the tunnel, you can verify this by installing the exemplar Alex linked to above, building a tunnel and forcing sims to have to use it to get to their jobs.  The traffic query tool will tell you that it's non-functional.

As for a dll solution, that all depends on exactly what hooks the game presents to allow external code to override its own functionality.  It's entirely possible the game doesn't allow external code to override those functions.  But we can't really know for sure unless we had the source code.

[Twyla]

Unfortunately, this is a case of "been there, done that".  No offense intended, but if the answer really was that simple, we would have RHW tunnels already.

There have been attempts to reenable the Dirtroad network's tunnels and while it is possible to correctly specify a model and paths and have the game successfully draw the tunnel, it is ultimately non-functional.  The traffic simulator simply ignores the connection altogether.

There is a post somewhere (I think it's in this thread) with an attachment that contains an exemplar that enables the Dirtroad tunnel visually.  But unfortunately the proper functionality of the tunnel seems to be locked in the EXE and cannot be changed in any way we are capable of.

It took quite a bit of skulduggery to fix the other major RHW issue (it's non-appearance on the Region Transport Dataview) and I only consider it a 90% success to be honest, since it's a clever workaround with a few caveats and subtle gotchas, but cracking the tunnel problem seems to be a lot trickier and is likely going to require much. much more skulduggery with lots of caveats and subtle gotchas of its own.

Crap...   I REALLY need to quite posting when I'm tired.

Part of what I left out involved a number of MODs which 'translate' between different networks - the ElRail/Subway transition being a well-known example.  Given how overrides for intersections and the like (seem to) work, it would - at the very least - seem to offer a workaround.  Something along the lines of:

1 ~ Drag RHW in the same manner as any other network, defining the tunnel
2 ~ The tunnel entrances are either auto-placed via RULs or (perhaps more easily) plopped afterwards
3 ~ The connection between the entrances is 'translated' into a different network, with each entrance serving as both starter and terminus for the 'borrowed' network.

8S, 10S, and possibly 12S lend themselves towards 'borrowing' MHW which, either through over-riding the existing NAM traffic capacity via DIPs or minor tweaking of its core capacity, could offer an accurate reflection of real-world capacity.  The DIP approach would put such a 'stolen' MHW tunnel's capacity at 75% of the RHW - which reflects on the general trend of reduced speed limits, etc, in tunnels.

Or, given the varying network widths for RHW, another option could be to perhaps 'borrow' a network like subway and override it for car & truck traffic instead of rail.  This similarly 'near-matches' RHW capacities without DIPs at 'Classic' setting and generously exceeds them at higher NTC settings - pretty much eliminating tunnel congestion altogether.

[Tarkus]

1 ~ Drag RHW in the same manner as any other network, defining the tunnel
2 ~ The tunnel entrances are either auto-placed via RULs or (perhaps more easily) plopped afterwards
3 ~ The connection between the entrances is 'translated' into a different network, with each entrance serving as both starter and terminus for the 'borrowed' network.

#2 in that plan works . . . the rest of it would be problematic.  We can't actually override networks in tunnels (only up to the edge of the tunnel) and we're also unable to physically turn one base network into another base network.  The idea of ploppable tunnel portals has been discussed before, however--I've had talks with both threestooges about doing something like that for Single-Track Rail.

8S, 10S, and possibly 12S lend themselves towards 'borrowing' MHW which, either through over-riding the existing NAM traffic capacity via DIPs or minor tweaking of its core capacity, could offer an accurate reflection of real-world capacity.  The DIP approach would put such a 'stolen' MHW tunnel's capacity at 75% of the RHW - which reflects on the general trend of reduced speed limits, etc, in tunnels.

Actually, a DIPped MHW would have a higher capacity . . . the Maxis Highway capacity figures generally shown operate on the unit of a single-tile, rather than the full-span capacities shown in the RHW's capacity table.  In the Medium capacity version, a 2-tile span of DIPped MHW would have a capacity of 37500.

Or, given the varying network widths for RHW, another option could be to perhaps 'borrow' a network like subway and override it for car & truck traffic instead of rail.  This similarly 'near-matches' RHW capacities without DIPs at 'Classic' setting and generously exceeds them at higher NTC settings - pretty much eliminating tunnel congestion altogether.

Subways are a weird beast, to say the least. (Hey, that rhymes!)  They operate in a manner that is largely different from other transit networks.  Pathing behaves very strangely on them, and they're actually "symbiotically-linked" with Pipes and (really strangely) Roads, which has made doing anything with them very difficult. 

-Alex

[Terring7]

One example of a possible future use for "waveride" technology would be something to do with separated-grade crossings for fractional angle stuff

Wait a minute, it is possible to use this technology to make double decker transportation systems, like highways and railroads? I remember that some guys tried to make double decker highways

[Nego]

@Terring7: The problem with double-decker highways is that the atomata tend to switch between levels while moving along the highway. (though something tells me that someone may have found a way to fix this problem )

[Terring7]

The flexible technology can't solve this problem?

[ivo_su]

Alex I know what I noticed in RHW. I do not know if I'm wrong but when I watch  the movement  of traffic along the avenue,  road, highway or RHW with many lanes I see that the vehicle speed  is equal. In my humble opinion it is not meet reality. I propose to do so that vehicle speed  is faster to RHW and extensive network of NWM, if possible, of course.
Another thing that bothers me is the reporting of traffic in the game. Although the capacity of networks of NWM and RHW is relatively high I never seen it to relieve traffic in cities. More clearly stated if replace OWR-2 with OWR-4 or 5, this does not solve the problem of congestion. I use my RHW-10 to connect the most populated neighborhoods in areas where CO, CS and I-HT but this does not work even half as efficient as a tube of the metro (Subway).I think that this problem stems not so much network capacity  as on how the loan tiles in the game. So if I am right then even if a network has the ability  to pass a 1 million vehicles in itself it would not solve  traffic  congestion.

Sorry if I was too critical and pedantic.

Friend and admirer of NAM
Ivo

[Blue Lightning]

Nope. WAVERide only extends to having a flexible piece. As for double deckering, I've had my stab at a full draggable one (drawing EHWY over GHWY) but that failed (I managed to do it 2 tiles at a time, but that's really cumbersome; its due to how tile connections are handled by the OverDraw/DraggedIntersection RUL)

ivo: My currently experimental automata controller is set to remedy the speed issue. As for capacity, you also have to take into account new traffic. If you build it, they will come.

[jdenm8]

Transit Type over other-kind-of-Transit Type is perfectly possible, look at the little-used ElRail over Road, and GLR in Road/Avenue which operates on the same principle.
It's Transit Type over same Transit Type going in the same direction that won't be done due to the jumping issue.

[Fresh Prince of SC4D]

Transit Type over other-kind-of-Transit Type is perfectly possible, look at the little-used ElRail over Road, and GLR in Road/Avenue which operates on the same principle.
It's Transit Type over same Transit Type going in the same direction that won't be done due to the jumping issue.

But in examples you have given, there two sets of transit for different purposes; Example, El Rail over road ( trains over cars, buses, and freight). But in the case of Double Deckers you have sims using the same transit (Cars, Buses, and Freight) on both decks. The Automata mistakes each deck as lanes on a single highway. This is compete peculation, but if the secret network is DDHW it was probably solve by cutting off some of the pathfinding or adding some sort of waypoints on the network. Follow the pathfinding GPS my Sims.

Maybe it's not real DDHW (highway over highway) maybe another hybrid of avenue over highway. It sounds more conventional for NAM team to start there.