Started by z, February 20, 2010, 07:48:37 PM
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Quote from: SC4BOY on May 17, 2010, 11:06:14 AMI doubt this is true. I expect you will find a 4x4 area that triggers high customers (probably the 4x4 that contains the "foundation lot") Since it is known that the game classes traffic elements like noise and customers in 4x4 groups, it may be that the 4x4 (recall that the basis of the 4x4 groups starts in the NorthWest corner of the map.. at least that is my recall.. NOT at the lot boundaries) is totally inside the 8x8 (or any larger lot size), but not solely due to the larger lot size. It may turn out that builders of large lots should practice good game practice with respect to the tile they use as the "anchor tile" of their lots.. I don't know about that.. I'm pretty sure there are currently no guidelines in this respect.At the very least I expect more investigation is required here before a conclusion is justifiably drawn.
QuoteThis is based on your own aesthetics, not on what should be good game practice. This would unnecessarily constrain players to using network capacities (or conversely submitting to restrictive customer levels) based on mathematical "prettiness" not game function. What is the "right" value?... hard to say, but just as with network capacities I expect it will vary considerably depending on what the player's goals are for his city/region.
Quote from: Trias on May 17, 2010, 12:30:04 PMIf you can control the anchor point for the lot, this indeed will not be true. For most lots, it is somewhere near the middle, in which case the 4x4 and surrounding tiles can be completely enveloped by the lot. Aesthetics has nothing to do with it. It is about preserving game functionality. For high values for the customer coefficient there will only be a very small range on the network capacity, in which the amount of traffic makes a difference with respect to desirability. From a gameplay perspective this range should be fairly wide. The actual effect on desirability should be controlled the developer properties, not by the traffic coefficient.
Quote from: Trias on May 17, 2010, 08:12:50 AMAs to the optimal value for the customers traffic noise coefficient... If we look at the original value for the coefficient and the network capacities, we see that at the maxis defaults traffic will saturate at roads with 200% capacity. To keep the sensitivity to traffic also at higher capacities, this relationship should be conserved. That is the coefficient should take as its value: 128/(road capacity)Obviously, on its own this will cause cities with high network capacity settings to have troubles with commercial desirability. This means that in an ideal situation that the desirability response curve on traffic should also be adjusted. This is somewhat beyond the scope of the traffic simulator, but could be done for a mod like CAM (that is messing with the developers anyway, with all associated problems that causes).
Quote from: z on May 18, 2010, 12:45:43 AMYou're proposing a formula that you admit will cause problems with higher capacity simulators, but you propose to fix this new problem by modifying additional exemplars. I don't think that that's the right approach. Instead, I'd like to take a look at the assumptions underlying your coefficient formula and see how they correlate with the realities of the game.[...]The current value has worked out quite well as a default, but it's also clear that different cities would have different optimal values. Even more than the size of the city, they layout of the city plays a big role. However, there's no way to incorporate that into the traffic simulator. Fortunately, Trias, your excellent experimental work has defined the behavior of the coefficient well enough so that it has been possible to incorporate its setting into the Traffic Simulator Configuration Tool, and people can set it to whatever they want. I think the current default value for the coefficient plus the configurability option works as well or better than anything else I can think of.
Quote from: Trias on May 18, 2010, 04:08:16 AMMy opinion is that using customers/traffic noise coefficient to regulate customers is a bad idea. Take for example the .250 value in the Z simulator. This value means that the traffic effect saturates around 1000 cars. This means that having 1000 or 5000 cars pass the doors of a C zone makes absolutely no difference for the desirability of the location. This is not how the game simulator should (and was designed to) work.
Quote from: SC4BOY on May 19, 2010, 03:51:10 AMSaturation of the commerce effect is not only reasonable, but reflects real life.. Increased traffic is indeed a good thing to a point, then at some point, it becomes a nuisance.. too much noise, too hard to get in and out, too much waiting in line, parking saturates, etc etc.. Of course personally I think this is a lot of niggling over nothing, but the saturation approach is certainly one I'll use in my simulation and feel confident in it (if it isn't the default one already). The game actually never was intended to reflect the finesse you're trying to imply here.. It's only displayed after all as low, med, and high (and med is essentially absent) so basically it is a binary effect and you're trying to give it some subtle meaning.. In actual game-play it just isn't that important. Either your commerce is generally well-located or it isn't... there are few shades of grey.
Quote from: Trias on May 19, 2010, 07:09:00 AM... this value is the range -40 to +40. .
Quote from: SC4BOY on May 19, 2010, 12:58:36 PMI of course am fully aware of this.. my point was not that it doesn't exist, but that from a game perspective, it simply doesn't make a much difference. I have been playing the game for almost 10 years and have no problem developing HUGE commerce areas with no problem whatsoever. Exactly what do you think all this fiddling will gain you in a practical game-play way?
Quote from: Trias on May 20, 2010, 01:03:24 AM(Also, of course you have no problem developing huge commerce areas, because the customers bonus is pretty much always maxed out once commerce develops.)
Quote from: z on May 29, 2010, 04:02:17 PMI am sorry to report that changing the Customers/Traffic Noise Coefficient from .250 to .128 broke sumwonyuno's Capitalis region. This was not entirely unexpected. The Capitalis region is modeled on one of the Hawaiian islands, and is a rather faithful rendering of that island in SC4. With some notable exceptions, commercial businesses tend to be small, spread out over a wide area, and connected by streets. Traffic along these streets is generally quite low in SC4. With a CTNC of .250, the businesses develop a modest but fairly stable base of customers. With a CTNC of .128, many (if not most) small businesses go without customers for months at a time. Although perfect pathfinding improved the customer level for a CTNC of .250, it did not do the same when the CTNC is .128.
QuoteThere also has been the assumption that the relationship of customers to desirability is strictly linear, and the Traffic Effect properties support that view.
Quote from: Trias on June 02, 2010, 05:13:25 AMWas that in plain NAM, or were there other mods involved like CAM?
QuoteCAM drastically increases the desirability threshold for high and medium wealth zone types. Making low desirability a much bigger issue in development.
QuoteKeeping the default value as it is may be a good idea for regions that are relying on it.
Quote from: Glazert on October 06, 2011, 10:27:02 AMPepsibottle1, There is a Traffic Simulator Configuration Tool, which should enable you to tweak to your heart's content.
Quote from: pepsibottle1 on October 06, 2011, 12:12:52 PMYeah, but there are some details not included within the editor.
Quote from: pepsibottle1 on October 06, 2011, 08:26:44 AMAlso, the NAM presets automatically come with the perfect pathfinding, right?
QuoteAlso, personally, I want to get more of the lower class citizens riding mass transit and the middle and higher class driving. I was just pondering, is there a value that can be adjusted to change the fiscal cost in simoleans that sims pay in order to use a certain form of transportation?
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