Menu

LEX File Exchange
EA Support Files
SC4 Wikipedia
Network Addon Mod
Dependencies
Chat
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

October 27, 2021, 01:48:12 PM

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: SimFox asks for help  (Read 11875 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline SimFox

SimFox asks for help
« Reply #60 on: September 08, 2008, 04:18:46 PM »
Sorry that I didnít reply sooner.

Iíll try to address all the issue youíve raised in your message. OK, letís start.

Lots for the residential Corner and Corner+Tower combo.
Well, that project in a way fell through the gap between two software versions, to different lighting rigs, GI and other settings. Since I my projects are normally highly optimized for a give solution porting them often results in somewhat unpredictable results. To do it right (better still improve on the previous result) takes time and effort, sometime considerably bigger than making them in the first place. Naturally not always it appears as a reasonable solution. Additional issue was residents number, but more on this issue later. As for LOTs I did like them, but never gotten them thoughÖ and since you didnít (apparently) sent them to me what could have I done?

Hangzhou Corner CS$$ building (aka QuiTao Building)
I sent you and Tage 4 different versions not to take all of them through the XTool. Since the difference was purely visual same numbers would be applicable. Idea was to receive some view as to the look. None had followed. Iím sorry for all the TGI 000000 files inside, not sure how they got in (probably as a result of truNite automating script I was starting working on at that time) But Iíve suggested that I can clear those out but Tage told me he had done it already.
Stats that were assigned to the building didnít look logical to my eye. I didnít know the inner workings of Xtool at that stage, but they just didnít look right. Now, since Tage explained some of it to me I know why Ė thatís why the new discussion of volume estimation precision had started. Since I donít have the tool I have to do it on paper or (what Iíve started doing) writing my own simple script for that purpose.  As you could see the STEX release had numbers different then youíve suggested (I thought that it was a suggestion that I could be free to choose to accept or not). Iíve tried to balance numbers from formulas with apparent bracketing system existing in Maxis default buildings. In the end I used the jobs number derived from precise volume of the building itself and consumption/pollution numbers adjust to the similar(by job numbers) default buildings.
In case of STEX I knew that I was within my right. I did inform downloaders what they were getting (sorry for the Stage8 Ė stage5 mixup more on this later). However, here, on LEX, I donít have same possibility and the entire process isnít the most clear one. I would have (if I could) uploaded the same files I did to STEX. On the other hand I still sort of wish to get more ďscientificĒ about it.

Krost.
This one I can consider a poster boy for all the confusion about residents/jobs numbers and stages.
If I follow the logic of volume/floorage to the letter it would have 1317 residents and given its bated 3x3 lot be a stage 8 CAM building. Yet it is a 40+ storey skyscraper! IT would stick out very much among itss stage8 pears. Much smaller looking Maxis buildings have 2-3 times as many R$$ residents. Also if game operates with size of the LOD/LOD bounding box how would such a building fit in? All these are still very much open questions to me.
Since there wasnít anything to LOT with this version of Krost I saw no reason to send it anywhere.
So for STEX release I just went with ďlooksĒ convention. The height of the building suggested stage8 (in conventional system) so I just gave the tower stats along the lines of other Maxis Stage8 R$$ building of similar (on a lower side) size. Again this was my own decision that I didnít need to explain, just inform. Here with whole ďscrutineersĒ concept it feels way different, as you need to explain yourself every step.

Stage8 vs.5 in QuiTao building.
Iím a bit surprised by this issue. I specifically had chosen the stage5 Cs$$ lot as a template. I didnít know that somehow it will be reassigned as stage8 but Lot editor. Good to know of such illogical and hence hard to predict possibility. Shall check for this in the future.
All that said, Iím still somewhat in the dark as to the precise procedure one is suppose to follow here. For instance the whole read me thing. How and why should it be different than info I usually give on STEX? In what form/standard it should be provided?


PS.
new export of Res Corner with tower and trees had just finished. So the model is done, bu the same issue with resident number is evident here as well. Would I go with Volume the entire thing that fits on minimum 6x6 lot would have 943 R$$. This will make it stage 6 lot. But how would 25 storey tower look in stage6 environment, particularly a CAM stage6 one??
« Last Edit: September 08, 2008, 04:21:48 PM by SimFox »

Offline BarbyW

  • Administrator
  • Forums Legend
  • *
  • Posts: 5508
  • Total likes: 8
  • Reputation: 57
  • CL: SC4D  Goddess
SimFox asks for help
« Reply #61 on: September 09, 2008, 02:47:14 AM »
Sorry that I didnít reply sooner.

Iíll try to address all the issue youíve raised in your message. OK, letís start.

Lots for the residential Corner and Corner+Tower combo.
Well, that project in a way fell through the gap between two software versions, to different lighting rigs, GI and other settings. Since I my projects are normally highly optimized for a give solution porting them often results in somewhat unpredictable results. To do it right (better still improve on the previous result) takes time and effort, sometime considerably bigger than making them in the first place. Naturally not always it appears as a reasonable solution. Additional issue was residents number, but more on this issue later. As for LOTs I did like them, but never gotten them thoughÖ and since you didnít (apparently) sent them to me what could have I done?

I didn't send them to you as you said you were re-rendering the models.

Quote
Hangzhou Corner CS$$ building (aka QuiTao Building)
I sent you and Tage 4 different versions not to take all of them through the XTool. Since the difference was purely visual same numbers would be applicable. Idea was to receive some view as to the look. None had followed. Iím sorry for all the TGI 000000 files inside, not sure how they got in (probably as a result of truNite automating script I was starting working on at that time) But Iíve suggested that I can clear those out but Tage told me he had done it already.


This is an example of how you need to make sure that your models are correct before lotting them as the first set I downloaded were faulty apart from the 0x0 TGIs and I had to re download another set also with the 0x0 TGIs. You said you didn't know how to remove them at the time



Quote
Stats that were assigned to the building didnít look logical to my eye. I didnít know the inner workings of Xtool at that stage, but they just didnít look right. Now, since Tage explained some of it to me I know why Ė thatís why the new discussion of volume estimation precision had started. Since I donít have the tool I have to do it on paper or (what Iíve started doing) writing my own simple script for that purpose.  As you could see the STEX release had numbers different then youíve suggested (I thought that it was a suggestion that I could be free to choose to accept or not). Iíve tried to balance numbers from formulas with apparent bracketing system existing in Maxis default buildings. In the end I used the jobs number derived from precise volume of the building itself and consumption/pollution numbers adjust to the similar(by job numbers) default buildings.
In case of STEX I knew that I was within my right. I did inform downloaders what they were getting (sorry for the Stage8 Ė stage5 mixup more on this later). However, here, on LEX, I donít have same possibility and the entire process isnít the most clear one. I would have (if I could) uploaded the same files I did to STEX. On the other hand I still sort of wish to get more ďscientificĒ about it.

My point on this building is that work was done by both Tage and I that was not necessary as you produced a completely different version for the STEX that has not been proposed for LEX upload.

Quote
Krost.
This one I can consider a poster boy for all the confusion about residents/jobs numbers and stages.
If I follow the logic of volume/floorage to the letter it would have 1317 residents and given its bated 3x3 lot be a stage 8 CAM building. Yet it is a 40+ storey skyscraper! IT would stick out very much among itss stage8 pears. Much smaller looking Maxis buildings have 2-3 times as many R$$ residents. Also if game operates with size of the LOD/LOD bounding box how would such a building fit in? All these are still very much open questions to me.
Since there wasnít anything to LOT with this version of Krost I saw no reason to send it anywhere.
So for STEX release I just went with ďlooksĒ convention. The height of the building suggested stage8 (in conventional system) so I just gave the tower stats along the lines of other Maxis Stage8 R$$ building of similar (on a lower side) size. Again this was my own decision that I didnít need to explain, just inform. Here with whole ďscrutineersĒ concept it feels way different, as you need to explain yourself every step.

For LEX upload you still need to get the files to me so that I can pass them to the scrutineers. This means a zip with the model and lots, the necessary desc files, 2 images 250x188 and a Readme. You do not need to explain yourself every step of the way but as you have seen you can make errors with models and I can make errors estimating the Filling Degree. This is why in BSC we all post files for scrutineering. Nothing gets posted to the LEX without it being posted at our private site first.
Personally I don't care how you upload to the STEX but I do care about uploads to the LEX and no one gets upload rights until we are happy that their work is of all round quality. I am not talking about looks here but the final stats for a building/lot.

Quote
Stage8 vs.5 in QuiTao building.
Iím a bit surprised by this issue. I specifically had chosen the stage5 Cs$$ lot as a template. I didnít know that somehow it will be reassigned as stage8 but Lot editor. Good to know of such illogical and hence hard to predict possibility. Shall check for this in the future.

One of the known vagaries of LE that was pointed out to others many times at Simtropolis. LE sets the growth stage based on the size/volume of the building so it doesn't matter what base you use as a template LE will try to make it the correct growth stage. It is always necessary to fully check all files and to test them in game BEFORE uploading.

Quote
All that said, Iím still somewhat in the dark as to the precise procedure one is suppose to follow here. For instance the whole read me thing. How and why should it be different than info I usually give on STEX? In what form/standard it should be provided?

Procedure to follow is simple and laid out in a stickied post at the start of this forum.
1. Let me, Tage or xxdita have your proposed uploads in the form I have described above. Whilst we prefer installers it is not a pre-requisite.
2.The files are posted at the private BSC site for our scrutineers.
3. Reports by the scrutineers are posted here and if there are any problems they need to be addressed. If there are no problems the files will be posted to the LEX.
4. After approximately 4 or 5 uploads to the LEX you should be given your own upload rights. This is providing no problems have been reported by other members.

Tage explained about the Readme last September and told you how to use SC4Tool on your machine. The Readme should be a separate document file included in the zip.

Quote
PS.
new export of Res Corner with tower and trees had just finished. So the model is done, bu the same issue with resident number is evident here as well. Would I go with Volume the entire thing that fits on minimum 6x6 lot would have 943 R$$. This will make it stage 6 lot. But how would 25 storey tower look in stage6 environment, particularly a CAM stage6 one??

Let me have the new models and we can discuss capacity once the new models are in the lots.
Inside every old person is a young person wondering what happened. TP



Barbypedia: More alive than the original

Offline SimFox

SimFox asks for help
« Reply #62 on: September 09, 2008, 04:49:24 AM »
OK
I shall certainly take it under advisement.

Generally I consider this thread as a discussion place and not ego stroking praise collection. I would much rather have someone point my mistake, explain them  so I could avoid them in the future then just do oh-ahs... For instance then LE behavior. I'm sure it has been pointed our numerous times in numerous places. But given vastness SC4 web presence and limited time and attention  /wrrd%& chances are that one wouldn't necessary come across such information.

About pictures. I assume 250x188 is a minimum size, right? I mean in H terms...

BTW do you remember/know who was doing CAM versions of the Moscow RED LOTs? (http://sc4devotion.com/csxlex/lex_filedesc.php?lotGET=1217)


Offline callagrafx

  • Administrator
  • Forums Guru
  • *
  • Posts: 2431
  • Total likes: 171
  • Reputation: 19
  • Cuius testiculos habes habeas cardia et cerebellum
  • CL: ()scarpim() The Scarlet Pimpernel
SimFox asks for help
« Reply #63 on: September 09, 2008, 04:58:55 AM »
About pictures. I assume 250x188 is a minimum size, right? I mean in H terms...

No, this is a fixed image dimension for LEX uploads....it's actually the same dimensions that STEX uses and we did this to make it easier for people who upload to both exchanges.  The LEX will reject any image not matching these dimensions.  You can have (within reason of course) any size image you wish in the readme though.
The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it

Offline BarbyW

  • Administrator
  • Forums Legend
  • *
  • Posts: 5508
  • Total likes: 8
  • Reputation: 57
  • CL: SC4D  Goddess
SimFox asks for help
« Reply #64 on: September 09, 2008, 05:04:48 AM »
M and I did some variations on your lot and I think JMyers2043 did some too.
You are right in thinking this is primarily a discussion thread but it is also where you should state what you are offering for candidacy with a link to the uploads or by sending them to Tage, xxdita or me. We need to know exactly what you wish to be considered as I am afraid we are not mind readers $%Grinno$%
The images should be 250x188 although they can be longer. The should not, however, exceed 250 in width.
Inside every old person is a young person wondering what happened. TP



Barbypedia: More alive than the original

Offline SimFox

SimFox asks for help
« Reply #65 on: September 09, 2008, 06:42:51 AM »
yeah...
Well As I have staed already I'm a bit confused now about occupancy numbers... I just don't know what logic to follow, the one of the formulas (as applied in PIM or X-Tool but with a precision true volume), or just the visual cues like building height or lot size needed to accommodate it's footprint.

Speaking about the Moscow Red... Trying to get the sense of then Whole CAMofying process I've been reading what I could find here on SC4Devotion (mostly Tage's threads in XTool section) and by looking at the LOT files in iLive Reader. This includes the LOTs of Moscow Red that are here on LEX. And here I have a bit of a problem... According to Tages info in order to be CAMpatible LOTs building exemplar should (at least for the growth stages above 8 ) include special values in Occupant Group property. those for CAM type and CAM Stage. But none of the two Moscow Red here oin LEX have them despite being a stage9 lots... Am I missing something?

PS
what is exact functionality of Filling degree property? is it limited for the calculating the occupancy and consumption/pollution numbers? or does it play some role in the actual simulation run by the game?
« Last Edit: September 09, 2008, 06:44:40 AM by SimFox »

Offline JoeST

  • Forums Guru
  • *
  • Posts: 2648
  • Total likes: 15
  • Reputation: 10
  • fbstj
  • CL: Not your average...
Copperminds and Cuddleswarms

Offline SimFox

SimFox asks for help
« Reply #67 on: September 09, 2008, 09:07:19 AM »
JoeST:
Unfortunately information on those threads (I'm aware of them) doesn't answer my question in a definitive way.

I'm interested if filling degree value/property has any importance past occupancy/consumption/pollution number generation. Or once those numbers are obtained could be safely disposed of.
In my case since IO don't have an access to XTool but instead have very precise information on Volume what should I do?
Calculate this value? Or simple discard it, since I could come to all the figures without it?

Offline RippleJet

SimFox asks for help
« Reply #68 on: September 10, 2008, 05:05:55 AM »
JoeST:
Unfortunately information on those threads (I'm aware of them) doesn't answer my question in a definitive way.

Well, we are already more precise than Maxis ever was...
All in-game R and IC buildings have an occupancy based on the extreme coordinates of the LOD box.

Maxis PIM also calculates them this way.
When making PIM-X we added the Filling Degree and tuned the formulas so that a Filling Degree of 50% would give the same occupancy as Maxis PIM.


I'm interested if filling degree value/property has any importance past occupancy/consumption/pollution number generation. Or once those numbers are obtained could be safely disposed of.

The following properties depend (directly or indirectly) on the filling degree:

  • Capacity Satisfied (Occupancy)
  • Building Value
  • Garbage Pollution at Center
  • Air Pollution at Center
  • Water Pollution at Center
  • Power Consumption
  • Water Consumption
  • Max Fire Stage
  • Worth
  • Bulldoze Cost
  • Construction Time


In my case since IO don't have an access to XTool but instead have very precise information on Volume what should I do?
Calculate this value? Or simple discard it, since I could come to all the figures without it?

I think it would be easier for all if you simply let someone who's got the X Tool make the building exemplar. ;)
And, if you wish to proivde the exact volume of the model, that can be used to tweak the filling degree precisely.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2008, 10:34:57 AM by RippleJet »

Offline SimFox

SimFox asks for help
« Reply #69 on: September 10, 2008, 08:26:03 AM »
Barby, I'll take that into consideration.
But for now I want to know about those Moscow Red LOTs that had been uploaded here on LEX. Are they proper working CAM lots or are they are faulty ones? As I've mentioned I they don't have proper CAM R$$ and Stage9 occupant groups (as explained in Tage's thread).
Can you, please, check this and let me know?

Offline BarbyW

  • Administrator
  • Forums Legend
  • *
  • Posts: 5508
  • Total likes: 8
  • Reputation: 57
  • CL: SC4D  Goddess
SimFox asks for help
« Reply #70 on: September 10, 2008, 08:30:06 AM »
The lots are fine although they are missing the OGs which means they will not count towards the CAM counters. When Tage returns I shall ask him about them as he did those.
Inside every old person is a young person wondering what happened. TP



Barbypedia: More alive than the original

Offline RippleJet

SimFox asks for help
« Reply #71 on: September 10, 2008, 04:45:49 PM »
When Tage returns I shall ask him about them as he did those.

 &ops
Tage reads and hides his head in sand... ()lurker()

Moscow Red was modded by me, and it's definitely not the first time that the CAM OG's have been forgotten...
Luckily it doesn't happen to me alone... ::)

I could as well blame Wouanagaine for it, as he hasn't made that an automated process in the X Tool...
but I'll be nice and blame it on myself. ()testing()

Offline SimFox

SimFox asks for help
« Reply #72 on: September 10, 2008, 05:19:55 PM »
but that does affects only statistics in "Cam survey" right? not the actual growability of the lot...

Offline RippleJet

SimFox asks for help
« Reply #73 on: September 10, 2008, 05:24:44 PM »
but that does affects only statistics in "Cam survey" right? not the actual growability of the lot...

No, it will grow without problems. :thumbsup:
The OG's are there only for the CAMeLot Counter to be able to count it.

Offline BarbyW

  • Administrator
  • Forums Legend
  • *
  • Posts: 5508
  • Total likes: 8
  • Reputation: 57
  • CL: SC4D  Goddess
SimFox asks for help
« Reply #74 on: September 14, 2008, 11:37:25 AM »
I have made building families for each pair of models and so there are 6 lots with the possibility of 2 variations in each. The lots are virtually identical to the originals that I made and you now have the file.
Please let me know when you have collected it so I can delete it from the server. You may want to check/change the names that I have used. This is what shows in the lot query so if you do want to change them just edit the Exemplar Name in each exemplar. All the appropriate exemplars are embedded in the correct lot file and the models are in dats - one for each type. There are two CAMelots that have the CAM query and OGs. This means that the two stage 9 lots have a dependency on BSC Essentials for the query. If you do not want the dependency then you will need to change the query to the standard Maxis one that is in all the others.
The only other dependency is BSC MEGA Props gascooker Vol01 for the walls round the playground in the corner lot without the tower.
Once you have made Readmes for each set with appropriate LEX images send them to me and I can post the files for scrutineering.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2008, 01:04:21 PM by BarbyW »
Inside every old person is a young person wondering what happened. TP



Barbypedia: More alive than the original

Offline RippleJet

SimFox asks for help
« Reply #75 on: September 14, 2008, 11:39:05 AM »
Pretty accurate on the Filling Degrees of 0.9, 0.25 and 0.193.
However, the diagonal ones will not be 0.9...

Volume: 39292 m3
FD: 0,9

The only properties that are seen about the size of the model in the building exemplar is the Occupant Size, which lists the orthogonal width, height and depth of the LOD box (extreme coordinates).

The images below shows the Occupant Size as a yellow box:

Occupant Size Width:

Occupant Size Height:

Occupant Size Depth:

Occupant Size Volume:

Model Volume:

Filling Degree:
31.0 m

69.9 m

20.0 m

43,338 m≥

39,292 m≥

0,907


Occupant Size Width:

Occupant Size Height:

Occupant Size Depth:

Occupant Size Volume:

Model Volume:

Filling Degree:
31.5 m

69.9 m

31.5 m

69,358 m≥

39,292 m≥

0,567


A filling degree of 0.57 for the diagonal should give roughly the same occupancy as 0.90 for the orthogonal.

Offline SimFox

SimFox asks for help
« Reply #76 on: September 15, 2008, 01:00:10 PM »
could you please issue me one?
I've exported 8 tree models to be used as props and would like to make them into prop family. And generally have plans to make more various prop/building families

Offline SimFox

SimFox asks for help
« Reply #77 on: September 16, 2008, 07:18:24 AM »
While I'm tiding up P44 series, making lots, readmes, etc. here is two LOTs that are ready as is:

Krost Tower (R$$ or should it be R$$$??)



download: Krost Tower
3x3 lot
Volume: 177 587m3
Filling degree: 0,435


QuiTao building (Cs $$)



download: QiuTao Building
4x4 lot
Volume: 116 657m3
Filling degree: 0,59


this one will need to be loted, still the model is exported (4 color variants) I shall be released too. And to pay my respect it shall be released on LEX first.
TRB Tower (R$$)


this is a purple(ish) version

download all 4 of them (I believe only one need to be put through XTool as they are identical in all respects but the color). I'll make them into building family):
TRB Yellow
TRB Orange
TRB Pink
TRB Purple(ish)
3x3 lot
Volume: 130 650m3
Filling degree: 0,51

These are completely ready and since Krost and QiuTao don't need any LOTing could be ready as soon as Descs are made. So, please could someone make this happen?

Offline Shadow Assassin

  • NAM Team
  • Forums Guru
  • *
  • Posts: 3232
  • Total likes: 12
  • Reputation: 25
  • Needs more cowbell.
  • CL: The Grid Reaper
SimFox asks for help
« Reply #78 on: September 16, 2008, 09:01:58 AM »
Quote
this is a purple(ish) version

Purple?

No way, it looks too pink for that. :P

But doesn't matter - it looks great anyway. I've been waiting for those apartment buildng sets for so long, it's great to see that they're finally close to LOTting.
New Horizons Productions
Berethor ♦ beskhu3epnm ♦ blade2k5 ♦ dedgren ♦ dmscopio ♦ Ennedi
emilin ♦ Heblem ♦ jplumbley ♦ moganite ♦ M4346 ♦ papab2000
Shadow Assassin ♦ Tarkus ♦ wouanagaine
See my uploads on the LEX!

Offline callagrafx

  • Administrator
  • Forums Guru
  • *
  • Posts: 2431
  • Total likes: 171
  • Reputation: 19
  • Cuius testiculos habes habeas cardia et cerebellum
  • CL: ()scarpim() The Scarlet Pimpernel
SimFox asks for help
« Reply #79 on: September 16, 2008, 09:38:06 AM »
So, please could someone make this happen?

Making the CAMpatible Descs or making the LOTs? 
The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it