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The Prop Pox!

Started by snorrelli, May 03, 2007, 08:53:49 PM

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bap

Hi Snorelli et al,

I am also a victim of prop pox. It affects the largest city in my relatively new region. The city has only 47K sims and covers about 2/3 of its large (4x4 km) city tile. The savegame file size is 15.5 Mby. For the records, I run a Pentium 4, 3GHz, with 1.5 Mby ram memory, a Gforce FX5200 video card with 256 Mby, Windows XP S2 prof edition, 40 Gby hard disk. I have about 500 Mby of custom content, half of it in /MyDocuments/Simcity4/Plugins (lots and some models) and the other half in the /ProgramFiles/Maxis/Simcity4/Plugins folder (props, textures).

I apologize in advance for the length of this message, but I'm trying to help giving as much info as I can based on the tests I am reporting below.

I initially thought (before finding & reading this thread) that it had something to do with changes I (recklessly) made to some of the installed lots in an attempt to correct the "growing empty lots" problem. However, I have backup copies of my region, which allow me to replace the infected city by a 'clean' previous version of it and run the game to see if the problem appears again. Thus, I made one step back, removed all changes I did to suspicious lots and played with the 'clean' city several times. Prop pox always strikes again after a few game years. Sometime the savegame city file grows to 25 Mby just at the last time I save the game before prop pox attacks, some times I just get a savegame file with decreasing size after prop pox strikes. This seems to depend on the exact game time you decide to save your city. Sometime the missing props are spread all over the city, some other times they are restricted to a certain corner of the city (but a different one for different trials). The simptoms are the same as already described here: lots remain functional, props are missing in Maxis lots as well as custom lots. Generally, the first lots to be affected are SimGoober's rural bus stops and building in custom farms, but I also saw props of PEG's streams & ponds and Jeronij's & Mas71's walls disappearing (perhaps they all call my attention as there are several of these lots in this city).

I followwd suggestions of people over simtropolis and increased the swap are to 4Mby, and also repeated the tests playing in my laptop, which has completely different specs as well as an older version of my game (several of the lots I now have are not yet installed in the SC4 version I have in my laptop). I copied the 'clean' version of the test city and installed as a new city in an old, test region I had there. Guess what? prop pox also strikes. Thus, I confirm it has nothing to do with computer specs, video card specs, memory & graphics settings. And, in my case, I can tell it also has nothing to do with instances left behind of previously deleted plugins.

The table below gives some information I extracted from the gamesave files of the infected city. Stages 0 corresponds to decease-free versions of the city; stages 1 to the first gamesave file just after prop pox strikes; the other stages are a sequence of gamesave files after prop pox has entered into action. The numbers in the table are in Kby. As one can see, the gamesave file keeps shrinking every time you save the city after you are infected by prop pox. And essentially what decreases is the size of the internal file which has the network props; the other one keep roughly their original sizes.

stage  savegame   buildings    props   ret.walls   network props
-------------------------------------------------------------
  0a      15599         593.3      257.6     18.6        6346.8
  0b      15576         591.6      256.8     18.6        6336.5
  1a      14919         591.0      256.2     19.0        5628.6
  1b      14859         590.0      255.2     19.1        5635.2
  1c      14806         587.3      254.2     18.9        5608.9
   2       14481         590.1      256.3     19.0        5175.7
   3       14417         589.8      255.4     19.1        5112.4
   4       13953         585.5      253.2     18.5        4628.4
-------------------------------------------------------------

In one of the simulations/trials I did, the gamesave file increase to 29.9 Mby and stayed at this size for another save before prop pox striked. I kept playing and saving while the gamesave file shrank and some 3 game years later the file size increased again to 25 Mby, stayed there for two consecutive 'saves' before decreasing again to 14 Mby (more and more props disappearing...).

If someone has ideas of tests that could be made in order to figure out where/what is the problem, please let me know. Because I have a decease-free version of the infected city, we can perform several tests including/removing things (plugins) to see if there is a particular configuration which allow us to get rid of the problem. In the meanwhile I am exploring one suspicion I have, namely, it might have to do with lots with undefined or missing props or double defined props (I will be scanning all my custom lots in LE searching for culprits). I say that because I remember somebody (sorry, I forgot the name) reporting in this thread that he got rid of prop pox after cleaning his plugins folder and deleting several duplicate files (containing duplicate definitions of props used is some lots).

I will be back later (hopefully with better news),
Bap

snorrelli

Welcome, bap (and my condolences on the Pox)...

This sounds like a classic case and you have provided a very detailed and thorough examination of exactly how it occurs and what can be observed in the savegame file. This exactly matches what other victims have reported, particularly in regard to the network props subfile.

Due to the volume of info here, I have not yet added your specs to the table. I think your post bears careful study on its own. I am now coming to suspect that the parameters included in the table are not relevant to the problem anyway, apart from the savegame and subfile info.

Some questions to anyone who knows more about the game's coding:

1. Is it possible that there is some threshold for total size/number of network props, beyond which the game cannot process them all?

2. Does subfile 2977aa47 contain props that are included in or modified by NAM or other transit network mods?

3. Is it possible that mods affecting the transit networks, including NAM, street tree mods, sidewalk texture mods, under-rail texture mods, or others could push the game beyond this threshold?
Have you ever had the Prop Pox? Join us to help find a vaccine or a cure.

Totuna e dac-ai murit flăcău ori moş îngârbovit;
Dar nu-i totuna leu să mori ori câine-nlănţuit.

bap

Quote from: snorrelli on July 06, 2008, 02:48:42 AM

1. Is it possible that there is some threshold for total size/number of network props, beyond which the game cannot process them all?

In this regard, I would add that the search for a cure to the prop pox would much benefit from contributions by people which actually are not infected by the decease. For example, it would be particularly interesting if people who developed large cities (city surface fully occupied, lots of transit networks, train, highway, subway & el rail lines) drop by here and let us know the size of their gamesave file and network sub-file. If we find at least one person which has a 'clean' city with network file of, say, 12 Mb, then the possibility that a threshold was violated in the case of the infected players may be discarded. If one finds that nobody, no matter how large his/her city has grown, has a network sub-file larger than, say 6 Mb, then this hypothesis becomes stronger.

Cheers,
Bap

dragonshardz

Well I'm working on filling up a large tile. I'll get back to you when I fill it up.

Or if I get "infected".

j-dub

I really suspect the size, but I think this does depend on the computer, someone on Youtube made a video of a fully filled up large city tile, with the highest population ever, and it didn't look like it had the pox. I don't know if this is related, but what exactly is the behavior of the additional folder called "exemplars" in the Sim City 4 folder in the My Documents section, I know that isn't initially put there when you first install the game, but maybe there is some sort of hidden/hardcoded behavior? When I had the Pox before, the real only forgotten thing was the exemplar 21's/network stuff, and very few regular lots. Heres a suspected cause of the Pox I encountered. Right now, I don't have full population anywhere, but my only Pox case I have caught, seems to be the replaced Mayor's lot, the stuff initially showed up, but now the one side seems to be forgotten in every city, while it still appears correctly in the lot editor. When I first got this lot eyons ago, I had left the old ones about unintentially, so while the old lot was everywhere, and only the 2x3 tiles, it had textures way out of the old lots bounds, and interfering with whatever else was going on. So thats one issue, I do still have occasion some weird overlay textures, with no lots under them occasionally, or the overlay textures going over the road, or out of bounds where their not suppose to be. Something else, not my problem, but also previously discussed has been puzzle pieces/interchanges where if you accidentally place them that they go over an existing lot, you may have just got rid of a lot not realizing it with either the building, texture or props still there. It is usally one of the 3 not all of them that seem to be forgotten. Why am I saying this? I think a good source of data corruption, causes memory damage, and results in the prop pox.

wouanagaine

I also suspect memory corruption somewhere, which leads to savegame and particulary the networks prop entry corruption
I however still don't see the relation between networks props entry and the prop pox on lots ( which should be in relation to the normal prop entry, not the network one )
However my assumption is that SC4 use kind of linked list to store and access props in memory, if for whatever reason that linked list began corrupted, then it can certainly either explain the growth or the shrink of the savegame file

I'd really like to know from those who have access to more than one PC, if an infected city is infected in all PC or not

J-dub, about the video on youtube, I don't think it is infected either, however a massive skyscrappers city will certainly use a very small amount of props as most of skyscrappers fit their lot. I think a good experiment will be to fill a large city with a suburbian style, where much more props will be used

New Horizons Productions
Berethor ♦ beskhu3epnm ♦ blade2k5 ♦ dmscopio ♦ dedgren ♦ emilin ♦ Ennedi ♦ Heblem ♦ jplumbley
M4346 ♦ moganite ♦ Papab2000 ♦ Shadow Assassin ♦ Tarkus ♦ wouanagaine
Divide wouanagaine by zero and you will in fact get one...one bad-ass that is - Alek King of SC4

xxdita

So a large tile with suburbs huh? Any other requirements? Or things to use while testing? I need an excuse to play for a bit.

wouanagaine

#207
Quote from: xxdita on July 08, 2008, 02:05:49 AM
So a large tile with suburbs huh? Any other requirements? Or things to use while testing? I need an excuse to play for a bit.
:)
Lots of variety to increase props ?
And maybe one tile with NAM, one without ?
maybe someone who had the prop pox previously to increase chance of getting the prop pox ?

maybe someone who have the prop pox can bulldoze everything ( not the obliterate button ) and let growth begin again to see if the prop pox remain after saving ( this is another experiment ) ?

New Horizons Productions
Berethor ♦ beskhu3epnm ♦ blade2k5 ♦ dmscopio ♦ dedgren ♦ emilin ♦ Ennedi ♦ Heblem ♦ jplumbley
M4346 ♦ moganite ♦ Papab2000 ♦ Shadow Assassin ♦ Tarkus ♦ wouanagaine
Divide wouanagaine by zero and you will in fact get one...one bad-ass that is - Alek King of SC4

snorrelli

#208
Quote from: wouanagaine on July 08, 2008, 12:20:12 AM
I'd really like to know from those who have access to more than one PC, if an infected city is infected in all PC or not

Yes.

I've tried importing corrupted cities on other PCs, both using the in-game import feature and by copying and overwriting savegame files in the regions folder. I have also tried playing these cities in their pre-corruption stage on other computers to see if the Pox still appears. The result is the same. Changing the computer makes no difference.

What's interesting about having access to corrupted cities in their pre-corruption stage is that the Pox seems to exist and its eventual appearance seems to be inevitable, well before any visible signs appear. I have not been able to go back and change anything in the city in the pre-corruption stage that prevented the Pox from appearing later.

EDIT:
Quote from: wouanagaine on July 08, 2008, 02:59:07 AM

maybe someone who have the prop pox can bulldoze everything ( not the obliterate button ) and let growth begin again to see if the prop pox remain after saving ( this is another experiment ) ?


This sometimes works and sometimes does not. Sometimes lots will regrow without problem and, when they do, their affect on adjoining networks will cause the network props (street lights, etc.) to be restored also. On the other hand, sometimes, as was the case with the city shown at the beginning of this thread, the Pox existed in one discreet area of the city no matter what. Even when all lots were bulldozed in that area and allowed to regrow, they looked fine during play but, upon saving, exiting and reloading, even the regrown lots in that area were affected.

I have not tried bulldozing ALL lots in an affected city, including ones in unaffected areas, to see what impact that had...
Have you ever had the Prop Pox? Join us to help find a vaccine or a cure.

Totuna e dac-ai murit flăcău ori moş îngârbovit;
Dar nu-i totuna leu să mori ori câine-nlănţuit.

sincitybaby

Well the other day I gave my friend my region to play and for some reason on his computer, when he loaded it he got prop pox, while my cities are perfectly normal.  Keep in mind they are the exact same cities.

wouanagaine

Quote from: sincitybaby on July 08, 2008, 11:48:04 AM
Well the other day I gave my friend my region to play and for some reason on his computer, when he loaded it he got prop pox, while my cities are perfectly normal.  Keep in mind they are the exact same cities.
Quite Interesting
Do you have the same plugins folders ? or do he have more stuff than you ?

@Snorelli, thanks for the report, Do you have same plugins also on the second laptop ?

New Horizons Productions
Berethor ♦ beskhu3epnm ♦ blade2k5 ♦ dmscopio ♦ dedgren ♦ emilin ♦ Ennedi ♦ Heblem ♦ jplumbley
M4346 ♦ moganite ♦ Papab2000 ♦ Shadow Assassin ♦ Tarkus ♦ wouanagaine
Divide wouanagaine by zero and you will in fact get one...one bad-ass that is - Alek King of SC4

sincitybaby

he actually has less then I do, and what's even stranger is that when he tried to start a new city he had prop pox.  He recently had his harddrive wiped so space should have not been an issue.  ()what()

snorrelli

Quote from: wouanagaine on July 08, 2008, 12:44:18 PM
@Snorelli, thanks for the report, Do you have same plugins also on the second laptop ?

2nd is a laptop and I have tried on a 3rd, a desktop, as well. Same plugins in all cases...

@sincitybaby: I don't mean to patronize, but if he has fewer plugins than you, he's probably missing some that have grown in your cities. When he loaded yours, it might have looked like the Pox, but if he had your same plugins folder all would have been normal.

That said, I note you said you gave him your region and when he tried to start a new city, the Pox appeared. Are you not talking about him trying to load cities you have already built on your machine?
Have you ever had the Prop Pox? Join us to help find a vaccine or a cure.

Totuna e dac-ai murit flăcău ori moş îngârbovit;
Dar nu-i totuna leu să mori ori câine-nlănţuit.

sincitybaby

well there were missing dependencies for the custom lots, but the normal maxis lots had no trees or props, and when he tried to start a brand new city in the region, the same problem appeared

BruceAtkinson

...hey Team....let's back up abit....as reported by snorrelli, and others...in the affected city(s) one can correct the Prop-pox in several locations, however it most likely will re-appear elswhere in the city.  Also the prop-pox by nature is random.....having the same lots appear normal in other cities, and having network related lots and models seems to have no affect, nor does population, complicated and diverse cities, etc.  As you all know, I have only one city that is affected: Wesley, which is in the Region "NanimoSouth", created years ago.  I also run the Berlin Region and nothing is affected there.  I have very simple and and very complicated cities in both Regions and all is well with the exception of Wesley.
  Even a simple thing as bulldozing say the affected bus stop to one tile over will allow for a correction to stay, however when one re-enters the city, another area not affected could all of sudden be affected....I think these properties of the disease is what is perplexing all of us...as they do not make any logical sense.
Bruce

bap

Quote from: sincitybaby on July 08, 2008, 03:26:12 PM
well there were missing dependencies for the custom lots, but the normal maxis lots had no trees or props, and when he tried to start a brand new city in the region, the same problem appeared

Hi there. This goes in the line of my above suspicion, namely, missing dependencies mean that the city has lots (either plopped or grown) that have undefined props. The LotExemplar makes reference to a prop that is not defined anywhere in your plugins folders. It may be that after a certain number of lots with undefined props are plopped/grow in a city, the memory will be corrupted (possibly with a buffer overflow) and the city will start showing 'prop pox'.

Let me report what I did over the two last weekends (I only have time to play SC4 over weekends  ()stsfd()). I used SC4Tools to screen all lots in the plugins folder in search for undefined props and textures. The search led to a total of more than 40 lots with undefined props/textures. At least a dozen of them were installed in the city affected by the pox. I spent the weekend trying to fix the affected lots by eliminating or replacing the undefined prop/texture with one I do have in my prop/texture packs. This is time consuming, because sometimes it is hard to find where the missing prop is hidden in the affected lot (I load the lot in LE, select the prop tab, and start searching moving the cursor over all props in the lot until I find one with no instance & name). In some cases I could't find the missing prop in LE and had to load the LotConfigExemplar file in ilive Reader and scan line by line to find the one containing the missing prop from its instance number (when you click the lotexemplardata it opens a tab and shows 13-16 numbers, the instance of the prop is the last number in the list).

Important: if one decides to do the same thing, searching for and correcting lots with undefined props, please remember that BEFORE changing the affected lot, you have to find & delete ALL occurrences of it into your region, even in non-affected cities. (this particular step is really what eats most of my time in this exercise). One thing that helps (in the case of plopped lots) is loading the city gamesave file in iLive Reader, and looking at the list of exemplars of plopped lots with the analyzer. It allows one to know if the lot you are trying to correct was or was not plopped in the given city.

I haven't finish the cleaning procedure yet, but I hope to have this done next weekend. Then I will be able to play with the clean version of the affected city and see if it still shows prop pox after a few city saves. If this line of reasoning is right, eliminating the undefined props/textures from all lots in your plugins will possibly avoid memory corruption and will solve the prop pox problem.

Another suggestion, this time for all players affected by the prop pox: if you have time, please scan all lots in your plugins folder with SC4Tools (analyser) to see if you find lots with undefined props/textures. If something is missing, the SC4Tool program will say 'could not find all data' and will show a red cross aside of the instance number of the undefined prop(s)/texture(s). If at least one of the affected players find no undefined prop/texture in his/her plugins, then correcting lots with undefined props may be a good thing to do, but is possibly useless from the point of view of our current problem.

Hope to bring good news in my next message.
Ciao,
Bap

SgtJoeDes

Hello every one. Last weekend I did some experimenting of my own. I had to re install SC after computer maintenance. Doing so, I installed it several times adding only one new mod at a time, then verified the results. Then un installing again and so forth. I first noticed that Props and Textures dissapeared when I installed the  UPDATE_SKU1_TO_P1_B638 file. Without it, all worked fine. Then I also noticed that it did it again when the Colossus mod was installed.

Now I'm running SC4 RH without those two files.

Now reading through all your replies this sounds too simple of a bug for it to be believable.

What do you think?  ()what()
SgtJoeDes

Andreas

Please check your graphics settings; whenever you install a Maxis patch/update, they will be set to "low", so certain props and textures seem to "disappear".
Andreas

bap

Quote from: SgtJoeDes on July 14, 2008, 06:51:44 PM
Hello every one. Last weekend I did some experimenting of my own. I had to re install SC after computer maintenance. Doing so, I installed it several times adding only one new mod at a time, then verified the results. Then un installing again and so forth. I first noticed that Props and Textures dissapeared when I installed the  UPDATE_SKU1_TO_P1_B638 file. Without it, all worked fine. Then I also noticed that it did it again when the Colossus mod was installed.

Hello SgtJoeDes. I find it hard to believe that SKU1 file is responsible for prop pox, because most (if not every) SC4 player has installed it. If that was the case, then prop pox will be a decease spread over most of the community and not a problem affecting only half a dozen players. For the same reason, it does not seem that a particular (and widely used) mod such as CAM would also be responsible for the problem. I am curious to see if you are able to make your SC4 version work fine if your graphical settings are set to high. Because prop pox is restricted to such a small fraction of the SC4 community, we should be looking for a rare situation or combination of parameters as the probable cause of it.
Bap

dwayner

#219
Hello I have recently caught the Prop Pox and have a picture to show. Also this is on a big city tile if that helps. I have been reading most of the thread and seems this is for now a random glitch in the game. I have recently upgraded my computer and have done a fresh reinstall of XP. The problem existed before, but when I loaded the city it was gone and I was happy. After a couple of days of playing it came back. So I have come to the conclusion that the saved game file is corrupt and always will be. The size of the file went form 47mb to 46mb so not much change. No other city has this problem. Also I have used the dat packer, maybe in a long shot this is causing props to load weird, has anyone tested this.