CAM - General Discussions

[RippleJet]

For instance Kinzie Tower: a stage 8 4x3 R$$ tower

With its current occupancy pda's Kinzie Tower should be growth stage 11, instead of 8.
And considering its size, it should have an occupancy exceeding 7,000, and as such it would actually be growth stage 14...

In other words, the Kinzie Tower would grow too early in CAM, and it won't upgrade to stage 9, 10 or 11.

Pacwest: a stage 8 4x4 CO$$ tower.

Jtportland's Pacwest would be stage 8 even if recomputed for CAM. Thus, it is actually pretty CAMpatible.

On the other hand, you probably do not want to keep the file PacWest_0ee48b66.SC4Lot.
That is one of the infamous landmarks growing on empty lots...

[GlobalHaze]

Ok, that clears alot up, thanks so much.  I guess I"ll download the X-Tool, and see if I can't use your advice to my advantage.

[Korot]

The X-tool isn't currently available for download. You'll have to wait until it is either released, or modded to be CAMpatible.

Regards,
Korot

[GlobalHaze]

Heheh, found that out the hard way.  I need to stop making so many assumptions. 

[cogeo]

Is growth stage 7 regarded as "medium-density" in CAM? This is what I'm guessing, looking at the RCI exemplars.

EDIT: I have another question: All R$$ stage-7 buldings in CAM are 2x2. Does this mean that I need such zones? Will the game stick at stage-6 for R$$ otherwise, or it will skip stage 7 and proceed to stage 8, if some other (which ?) criteria are met?

[RippleJet]

Is growth stage 7 regarded as "medium-density" in CAM? This is what I'm guessing, looking at the RCI exemplars.

If made with the "X Tool", a residential or commercial building would be set to grow on medium and high density zones if the height of its LOD box is 25-100 m.
Normally all stage 7 buildings would fit in here.

However, a skyscraper taller than 100 m placed on a larger lot could very well end up being stage 7.
Such a lot would grow only on high density zones though.

EDIT: I have another question: All R$$ stage-7 buldings in CAM are 2x2. Does this mean that I need such zones? Will the game stick at stage-6 for R$$ otherwise, or it will skip stage 7 and proceed to stage 8, if some other (which ?) criteria are met?

Normally the game would split up existing lots into 2×2 lots if possible and needed.
If that isn't possible, due to the way you've made your zones, then it would actually skip stage 7 for R$$.

That would also mean that there is a suppressed need for stage 7 R$$ to grow.
In other words, as soon as a 2×2 lot becomes available or a differently sized custom lot of stage 7 is installed, you would most likely see one of those stage 7 lots grow immediately.

If you feel that there's a slow-down in development getting past stage 7,
I would recommend you to download a few custom lots to fill those gaps:

2. Residential §§ CAMeLots

Lot Size	Lot Name	Growth Stage	Download CAMeLot here
1x1	Corner Apartments - zero7	7	Z7 Corner Apartments
2x3	One21-Apartment Tower	7	One21-Apartment Tower
3x3	La Guardia Apartments	7	Sears Department Store
3x3	Buder Apartments	7	SHUR Buder Building
4x4	Rookery Building	7	SHUR Rookery Building

The range of lots that Maxis offered doesn't fill all possibilities, especially after a few of them were moved to stages 9, 10 and 11 in CAM.
E.g. the 5 and 6 tile deep stage 1 R$$$ mansions would never upgrade unless there's a road going around them so that they can split up.

[cogeo]

Tage, thanks for your reply (and the links).

Another problem (or not ?) I have found, is that the R$$$ stage-4 mansions don't grow on medium-density, they need at least medium density zones. But the LotConfigPropertyZoneTypes property for these is 0x01,0x02,0x03, which means that they should be developing in all zone densities. This however appears to not work (demand and desirability are very high, and my current stage for R$$$ is at least 4 - I get the stage-5 condos too). This is the same in the original simcity_1.dat too (weird). I have tested it with and without CAM and it doesn't work in any case. It seems that the LotConfigPropertyZoneTypes property can only limit the zone types a lot can grow on. But it has to satisfy the growth stage vs density criterion too (1,2,3=low, 4,5,6=high etc). So I have to repeat the question (under this new light this time), will stage-7 lots grow on mid-density zones or not (it's a similar case). Also are these hardcoded, or there is some exemplar you can edit?

[RippleJet]

Another problem (or not ?) I have found, is that the R$$$ stage-4 mansions don't grow on medium low-density, they need at least medium density zones. But the LotConfigPropertyZoneTypes property for these is 0x01,0x02,0x03, which means that they should be developing in all zone densities. This however appears to not work

This is something I've never heard of, and thus I cannot verify, nor decline it...

It seems that the LotConfigPropertyZoneTypes property can only limit the zone types a lot can grow on. But it has to satisfy the growth stage vs density criterion too (1,2,3=low, 4,5,6=high etc). So I have to repeat the question (under this new light this time), will stage-7 lots grow on mid-density zones or not (it's a similar case). Also are these hardcoded, or there is some exemplar you can edit?

There's no other exemplar that I know of that would control that.
If they are hardcoded the way you suspect, I'd be rather disappointed.

I'd be grateful if you could test this further though...
And, in that case, primarily without CAM and for several other lots by Maxis, e.g:

• All stage 4 R$$ are set to grow on all zone densities, 0x01, 0x02 and 0x03
• About half of all stage 7 R$, R$$ and R$$$ lots are set to grow on 0x02 and 0x03, the other half only on density 0x03

[cogeo]

If they are hardcoded the way you suspect, I'd be rather disappointed.

I can't find evidence about the opposite, I can only find examples that rather verify this.

I don't have many mansions in my city, but I have loads of R$$. I was surprised to see that some R$$4 lots had grown on LD zones. But then found that most R$$4 lots are actually... stage 3 (check the Growth Stage property). So this does NOT falsify my hypothesis (neither verifies it though). But I have checked all my LD zones and didn't find anything beyond stage 3 there.

[RippleJet]

But then found that most R$$4 lots are actually... stage 3 (check the Growth Stage property).

Indeed, even several R$$5 lots are also in fact growth stage 3...
Never trust the growth stage found in the names of Maxis lots...

So this does NOT falsify my hypothesis (neither verifies it though).

No, but all this raises new questions to me...

• Should I ask wouanagaine to correct the way the zone densities are assigned in the "X Tool"?
• Should I correct these Maxis lots in CAM 2.0?
• Would a stage 9 (or higher) building grow on medium density if set to it?

Thank you so far, Cogeo for noticing this!
I'd be grateful if someone else could verify this as well...
The more testers we have, the better...
And I guess I will have to make some testing myself as well now...

[RippleJet]

So I have to repeat the question (under this new light this time), will stage-7 lots grow on mid-density zones or not (it's a similar case).

I haven't had much time to look into this so far.
However, while testing BSC Functional Seaports 3.0 today, I did get one stage 7 CO$$$ office to grow on medium density.

The in-game lot CO$$$7_2x3, family 0x40000089 (consisting of Hedman Planners and West & Co, Inc.) is set to grow as stage 7 on zone types 0x05 and 0x06.
It grew with West & Co, Inc. on a medium density commercial zone.

[cogeo]

I haven't had much time to look into this so far.
However, while testing BSC Functional Seaports 3.0 today, I did get one stage 7 CO$$$ office to grow on medium density.

The in-game lot CO$$$7_2x3, family 0x40000089 (consisting of Hedman Planners and West & Co, Inc.) is set to grow as stage 7 on zone types 0x05 and 0x06.
It grew with West & Co, Inc. on a medium density commercial zone.

Interesting! This building family is available in stage-5 and -6 lots, but sized at least 3x3. So this means that medium density zones can grow stage-7 lots too.

I made another experiment, which however rather leads to different conclusions. Duplicated all R$$$ 2x3 stage-4 lots (with new IDs, of course) and changed stage to 3. What happened? All those low-density 2x3 zones grew these lots (until demand was exhausted), while this was not the case before; it clearly required medium density zones.

What do I suspect? The desnity-stage relation finally IS hardcoded, AND the information in the LotConfigPropertyZoneTypes property can only limit growth to certain zone types. In addition, stage 7 is actually considered medium-density by the simulator, but for most stage-7 lots LotConfigPropertyZoneTypes is set to HD only, so these lots do not grow on MD. Don't know, this rather makes sense, but still needs to be verified.

As for the correct assignment of stages and densities, there are some things that haven't been set correctly imo. For example those 2x3 mansions, require at least medium density to grow. They are available in low density, albeit in 3x3 lots, but I think they look "low-density" even on 2x3 lots - could you please verify this with the X-Tool (or what)?. On the other hand, a building that is clearly highrise (R$$$54x24_5ChiLuxCondos13_0150 - Ingebretson) can grow on medium density (stage-6) on a 4x3 lot. I think this thing shouldn't be allowed to grow on medium density, it will dominate the landscape and destroy the area architecturally. And a 4x3 lot is quite easy to be formed (by aggregating two adjacent 2x3 lots). That is the same zone type (medium density) can accomodate buildings that range from clearly lowrise (mansions) to clearly highrise (Ingebretson). This means that the player nearly loses the ability to control development by zoning. To my opinion, medium density zones should only grow really medium-density buildings, eg in the R$$$ case only the Palazzos and Condos.

And I have a suggestion for BATters: it would be great if some BATters make just the BAT (in dimensions similar to the Maxis ones), and the building exemplar(s) (again with stats close to the Maxis ones, and/or adjusted for CAM), ie expand the building families. Tbe Maxis lots are quite good imo, and expanding the building families will solve the problem of repeating buildings (in many cases the game has only to choose amongst 2 or 3 models, esp if you choose only one building style).

[RippleJet]

As for the correct assignment of stages and densities, there are some things that haven't been set correctly imo. For example those 2x3 mansions, require at least medium density to grow. They are available in low density, albeit in 3x3 lots, but I think they look "low-density" even on 2x3 lots - could you please verify this with the X-Tool (or what)?.

Yes, all mansions, being under 25 m in height, would be set to grow on low density if made by the "X Tool", regardless of the lot size (being 2×3 or 2×2).
They are all set to grow on low density by Maxis as well...
However, based on your experience, I guess they wouldn't grow on low density when their growth stage is 4 or 5?

On the other hand, a building that is clearly highrise (R$$$54x24_5ChiLuxCondos13_0150 - Ingebretson) can grow on medium density (stage-6) on a 4x3 lot. I think this thing shouldn't be allowed to grow on medium density, it will dominate the landscape and destroy the area architecturally.

I fully agree, and this is one of the buildings that needs fixing in CAM 2.0.
I'm actually thinking of running all Maxis buildings and lots through the "X Tool" for CAM 2.0...

[z]

I'm actually thinking of running all Maxis buildings and lots through the "X Tool" for CAM 2.0...

I think that's a great idea.    I don't think we should be afraid to change the original game in those places where we know we can improve it.

[tamorr]

   That definately would be nice to have some degree of control where certain height buildings grow using the density in mind. Makes making a small town easier, if not rural areas you only want the smaller buildings in the first place. So I'd have to agree that having the Maxis building conforming to this to some degree would be nice for the next version of CAM.
   I was wondering myself about some of the zone density vs. Stage. I'll have to see for myself on this one, even though I am sure that the findings are correct. Just someting gotten see first hand.

[GhostBuster]

Hey guys, I'm interested in CAM as I have read around and heard good things about it and people say its pretty much a necessity for a big city.
And i've tried to read the manuals and peoples posts, and I am really confused

Could I please just get a fairly simple, to the point explanation of that CAM is, what it does
And a small list of the pros and cons

Like I said I have tried reading the manual and other things but I cant find anything which isn't a bunch of numbers and confusing graphs
Thank you in advance to anyone who bother's/has the time to write anything in response to this post, as I am sure you've done this many times before, even you if just link me to something which is again like I said, is simple and to the point.

Thank you for your time,
Ghost.

[BarbyW]

Simply put, CAM has extended the growth stages from stage 8 for R and C and 3 for Industrials to stage 15 for R and C, stage 10 for ID, IM and IHT and stage 7 for IR (farms). You can now have skyscrapers at the right stage in a city's development. You can have better industials at higher stages.
That is the simple answer although the full reply would be more technical.

[GhostBuster]

So basically it makes the cities devolpment more realistic? Correct me if i am wrong, but would this sort of help the ever annoying abandonment problems? Because they wouldn't be coming when the city isn't ready for them?

[BarbyW]

Yes as a rule although there are always many different factors involved. CAM does make cities grow at a more realistic rate providing you use the CAM version of lots not the originals - for example some very tall buildings set to grow at stage 7 or 8 in the original lot.

[cogeo]

So basically it makes the cities devolpment more realistic? Correct me if i am wrong, but would this sort of help the ever annoying abandonment problems? Because they wouldn't be coming when the city isn't ready for them?

As for the abandonment issues, CAM also incorporates the Less Abandonment Mod by Bones1, which I would suggest that you install, even if you finally decide not to install CAM. It's a brilliant mod, addressing the abandonment and dilapidation issues in a different way: instead of preventing the buildings to dilapidate, it changes the desirability thresholds. The thresholds to get $$ and $$$ development (and to exit dilapidation state) have been raised, and they are above the threshold to cause dilapidation (they were set equal in the original Maxis settings). Ie the desirability ranges are now overlapping. This means that it will be harder to get $$ and $$$ development in the first place, but they can tolerate some drop in desirability without dilapidating. This results in more stable cities and much less abandonment.

Another good feature in CAM is more consistent number of jobs and residents (occupants) in the Maxis lots.

And something that might cause you some concern, cities don't grow that fast with CAM installed, it actually makes the game a little (quite) harder to play. Growth has to go through more stages, population won't grow as fast (at least initially), and you will need more zones to get the same population and jobs. But I think it's worth the fuss.