Sunken Heavy Rail?

woodb3kmaster · April 13, 2010, 04:29:32 PM

I don't know whether this idea would be better suited to the NAM Team or the RAM Team, but here goes... I think it would be cool to have a set of (heavy) rail puzzle pieces that consist of rail below-grade in an open cut or trench, similar to the Sunken Light Rail puzzle pieces currently being developed as an expansion to the El-rail/GLR/Subway networks. A RL example of such a rail configuration is the Alameda Corridor here in Los Angeles. Depending on how labor-intensive it would be, I could potentially model the puzzle pieces and a couple of the first stations (I'm envisioning the use of sunken heavy rail for both passenger and freight trains, just like surface-level rail). Is anyone else interested in at least the concept here (or even helping to make it a reality)?

cubby420 · April 13, 2010, 04:51:57 PM

I'm not sure, but I think someone was working on something like this already. I wish I could find the thread, because there are some shockingly cool pics inside...if I find it, I'll let you know

wes.janson · April 13, 2010, 04:56:32 PM

Quote from: cubby420 on April 13, 2010, 04:51:57 PM
I'm not sure, but I think someone was working on something like this already. I wish I could find the thread, because there are some shockingly cool pics inside...if I find it, I'll let you know

I think you mean this thread by McDrye. It hasn't been active in a few months, but the development so far looked rather amazing.

cubby420 · April 13, 2010, 04:59:26 PM

Yep, that'd be the one. Thanks wes.janson!

Check that thread out if you haven't seen it before woodb3kmaster. Some of the pictures of what MsDrye was abe to accomplish will blow your mind.

woodb3kmaster · April 13, 2010, 11:03:56 PM

Thanks for letting me know about that thread, you two! McDrye's work thus far is certainly impressive and would look great as a form of subsurface light rail, but I'm thinking that a more modern style (i.e. concrete) would be more appropriate for what I've suggested - something similar to the Alameda Corridor that I mentioned in my original post:

Puzzle pieces in this style would be exceptionally easy to model IMO, especially using network textures instead of modeling actual rails, hence my offer to model them. McDrye's pieces are awe-inspiring, and I don't mean to disrespect them at all - they just don't quite fit with my vision for subsurface heavy rail (which seems to be a relatively recent RL innovation). Thoughts?

superhands · April 13, 2010, 11:31:02 PM

From a Design point of view, the only way currently known possible to allow the trains to be visible is if the network is Lot Based. This involves the model having Tight Lods such as that like bridges or true s3d. It also involves removing the base texture of the lot file.

However I've never tried this and is just an idea about how to go about it.

-Dave

mightygoose · April 14, 2010, 12:14:30 AM

well any set process figured out here is also very much applicable to sunken highways.... with vertical walls.

Diggis · April 14, 2010, 01:23:12 AM

This would have to work the same as the Sunken Light rail from NOB. These cannot be puzzle pieces as the ground texture can't be removed as Dave said above. They are special TE'd pieces which only really work becasue we have an underground based light rail network in the game (subway). With any other network it wouldn't work if you wanted to cross it with another network really.

Maybe someone who is more knowledgeable than me could comment, but I think this is very unlikely to work.

Jonathan · April 14, 2010, 02:56:32 AM

The Sunken light Rail from NOB also work with the FLUP puzzle pieces removing the need for subway, a set similar to the FLUPs for Rail could be made to work with sunen rail lots.

z · April 14, 2010, 04:19:00 AM

Wouldn't these just work as TE lots connected up to the existing Underground Rail network?

k808j · April 14, 2010, 01:33:20 PM

There was a mod by XDesign from the STEX that was sunken avenue. Can that be modified for sunken rail?

buddybud · April 14, 2010, 01:56:15 PM

years ago i was able to fudge this using a series of telots similar to my underpasses and te lots with overhanging props. None of this exists anymore, but with the advent of flups maybe something similar could be tried.

Bud

Jayster · April 14, 2010, 03:27:55 PM

buddybud THAT IS BRILLIANT! that looks really great, it's a great shame that none of it exists anymore.

mightygoose · April 15, 2010, 01:56:07 AM

i was about to mention that..... once you have finished your elevated rail skin, this has surely got to be top priority...

nekseb · April 15, 2010, 05:18:26 AM

Buddybud - I'm speakless.

May is it possible to connect the Sunken Road with a ramp-street to bring the street to the ground level?

DJPTiger · April 15, 2010, 08:02:45 AM

Good day,

I would rather do that instead of FLUP than Subway.

Greeting DJPTiger

buddybud · April 15, 2010, 11:14:37 AM

thanx Jaster, ya it's a shame it's gone. Mightygoose, I was afraid you'd say something like that....

QuoteMay is it possible to connect the Sunken Road with a ramp-street to bring the street to the ground level?

nekseb In the top picture you can see a 2x1 road coming down into the sunken area. It was perfectly functional.

QuoteI would rather do that instead of FLUP than Subway.

djptiger, yes it would be way easier with flups plus more practical, this is from 3 or 4 years back and i'm in no way suggesting we implement this as i conceived it. It's not practical at all. But may be the ideas can be updated and explored further.

Ok how it works. I'll use the top picture as an example cause we can see the lots. Here it is again color coded 1 (red)at the two ends and center are the tunnel entrances using pieces modded identical to my te underpasses. 2(blue)in the sunken highway are 2 2x1 te lots, the longer the better. They not only serve to hold part of the walls in place but when longer lots are used the ground can be leveled behind them at the proper height, in the same manner in which you do behind my te underpasses. 3(light blue) Beside the highway are 3 1x1 parks that serve for holders for wall filler using overhanging props. These fill in the wall gaps between the telots. 4(black) Actual road bits to hold it all together and also make the ramp.

Problems. 1. Well the first is obvious. You can't just plop something like this down. You gotta prepare the ground extensively.
2. With roads etc you get pedestrians wandering around down their weather you like it or not. The single zot roads holding it together generate pedestrians as long as there are lots backing against any of the road zots. Also people will drive to and leave work directly into and out of the sunken bit if the road zots touch the property.
3. No idea how any kind of slope along the length of the corridor would be handled.
4. Buildings that are slope conforming have to be demo-ed, to fill in behind the lots properly...kinda annoying after awhile.

In short this could be done in a similar fashion for rail without the pedestrian issues, but either way it is far from a friendly process. If it all could be replaced with ploppable puzzle pieces similar to flops but still with the ability to pull the ground up around the puzzle piece i think something could be thrown together.

I'll see if i can find anymore detailed photos.

oh also a side note. You can use te lots at the top along the side, to have roads or rail run directly beside the corridor, but that was a REAL hassle to get everything in place. They have to be staggered with the sunken te lots if i remember correctly.

Hope this is helpful in some way.
Cheers
Bud

Edit

Whatever happened to this from ardecila, it was posted in my underbridge scenery thread a couple years ago.

QuoteThat's real, guys - and there's no retaining wall lots on either side. The train is actually 10 meters below grade. This is just 1, 1x6 open cut lot, connected on the ends to an upcoming puzzle piece (which will not be in the new NAM, unfortunately). The only defect is that the ground plane occasionally covers up the train - toggling underground mode fixes it.

buddybud · April 15, 2010, 02:04:57 PM

sorry for the double post but i thought this was significant.

inspired by ardecila picture i decided to mess with transit models directly...i had a hunch. I made a 3 sided box as seen below. The top is at a 0.0 height and the wall and floor extend below ground. I used 3 identical textures. The texture at the top had standard transparency applied. The two boxes below ground...the wall and floor if you will...i applied the settings to the textures as seen below.

these are the results i got.

the black is all below ground. You can see the shadow for the eltrain lying at ground level above the train. Also seen now is the issue with visibility though some elements like the train and the old el shadow show. in the case of props it totally overwrites everything. The below ground wall appears only at proper angles but the ground rectangle does not work properly. This is my first attempt so more messing with the texture settings will give different results. I think the depth info is key here. Different models for different rotations will help...but a setting to make props and buildings also visible in front of the pieces would need to be found. This does not seem to be affected by the ground bug and has no lodding of any sort.
If i'm redoing the wheel here let me know....

thoughts anyone
Bud

Edit

Got it playing properly with props....changed the sunken base to green to see it better. But it still won't hide itself for ground textures. If i can figure out that i'm laughing. also added the second wall both of which only appear at the right angles.....just the sunken base won't co-operate.

choco · April 15, 2010, 04:07:01 PM

when you get going bud.....

buddybud · April 15, 2010, 05:11:16 PM

thanx chaco.

i've tried all kinds of variations on the texture settings. The most significant and annoying thing is i can make the sunken part appear correctly but not have the train visible or the opposite like seen above.....and that there's probably thousands of combination's. I don't really know how these settings work but there seems to be a hierarchy for visibility. Also parts of the train should not be seen that are below the edge of the wall....and i know nothing about automata.

But i'll keep playing with it tonight and see what comes up.

oh and also modifying the texture on one group in the model changes how other textures in different groups are projected on screen. Another reason i suspect there is a hierarchy.