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SimCity 4 General Discussion and Tutorials => SimCity 4 General Discussion => General Custom Content Discussion => Topic started by: dedgren on April 09, 2007, 02:30:48 PM

Title: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: dedgren on April 09, 2007, 02:30:48 PM
n.b.:  I posted the following first over at Three Rivers Region.  I think this might be of wider interest to the community, though and, as you will see, I make a shameless solicitation toward the end.

* * *

Well, the more I thought about it, the less satisfied I was with my hand-drawn road curve yesterday.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg137.imageshack.us%2Fimg137%2F9039%2Fbigcurve512proto01cd5.jpg&hash=a45163fac9f9dd6471104fa351866ca858211d94)

So, here's three variants drawn in vector graphics.  All are 175'/56m radius curves.  The biggest radius game curve is about 75'/24m.

A 90 degree turn (4x4 gridsquares).

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg485.imageshack.us%2Fimg485%2F3195%2Fcurve90512working01ib5.png&hash=3093952f83d454916c96ed288901a674cb9ffc21)

A 45 degree turn (3x2 gridsquares).

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg338.imageshack.us%2Fimg338%2F6200%2Fcurve45512working01in3.png&hash=e1db88ff375928d56dbc2471a0b5401d823c4de7)

An S-curve (4x2 gridsquares).

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg125.imageshack.us%2Fimg125%2F8546%2Fscurve4x2512workingkh1.png&hash=79a133e083654c5ff3a9491df5b0a55a4f4d1892)

My knowledge runs out here (well, not actually- I can dice them up and run them through SC4Tool to create a texture set, then assemble them into custom lots).  I orginally thought of these as pure eye candy, though.  Alex (Tarkus) has indicated he can help with transit pathing.  I don't know enough about textures to know whether these would best be used as overlay textures or if I should add "ground" on each side.  I can do anything with these that folks "in-the-know" would suggest, but what I'd most like to do is spin the project to someone who could take the lead and get these in the game somehow.  I'd be happy to continue to help, and can cook up just about anything now that I have the hang, graphics-wise.

I'm starting this thread in the "Help!" forum section and have, as noted, made the first post the same one I made earlier on 3RR.  Now, it's back to that project (although I intend to follow through on my original plan, which was to do some 150'/48m wide eye-candy airport runways that match up with some of the great stuff out there, to include diagonal runways).

Later.


David
 
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Tarkus on April 09, 2007, 03:08:58 PM
Hi David-

Well, there's actually a few different ways to go about it.  The first would be to create a Transit-Enabled Lot, and a second would be to make it into a puzzle piece.  There's also a third possibility, which would be to incorporate these textures into some sort of RUL override, such that they could be made through a draggable method, like the NAM roundabouts (i.e. build an awkward diagonal curve and have it turn into your S-curve). 

It may also be possible with that method to script the game somehow such that that conversion could be optional, as exists with the Extended Elevated-to-Ground Highway Transition in the NAM, though I haven't personally messed around with that part yet. The latter two options would be eligible for NAM inclusion, and thus, I'd recommend them over doing a TE Lot. 

In order to get the TE Lot to function properly, it would still require just as much pathing as the making a puzzle piece or RUL override in order to make things look and function correctly, plus it would also be subject to some of the less desirable properties of TE Lots, including the infamous crashing bug around puzzle pieces, and you couldn't lay two of them adjacently to make a cohesive network.

I know that at least for the latter two options, you will need to make them into an overlay texture, complete with alpha mapping, and you may have to with the TE Lot as well (though it's been awhile since I've done that).

Hope that helps!

-Alex
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: thundercrack83 on April 09, 2007, 03:36:19 PM
These curves look fantastic! I hope that you all can figure out how to make these work because I think it would be a great addition to the game. One question, though: Would you be able to have some way to include intersections within the curves, especially the 90° and 45° angle turns?
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Frankie on April 09, 2007, 04:01:33 PM
I like the looks of these textures, I hope they can become puzzle pieces  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: TheTeaCat on April 09, 2007, 04:07:24 PM
This is an interesting project. Its a great idea and I for one would like to see this as a completed work. Shall keep an eye on this.

:satisfied:
TTC
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: dedgren on April 09, 2007, 07:37:31 PM
The S-curve- assembled and TE'd so it will connect to the game road.  The "game" S-curve is the other one.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg135.imageshack.us%2Fimg135%2F1513%2Ffirstshots01pt1.jpg&hash=7fcad627b8f7b7059ca3d3d7174e7203aa12d2b7)

...can you tell which is which?

Ignore the awful grass texture matching.  I did that in about 30 seconds as it wasn't the point.

Here's the same thing with a few trees and stuff here and there.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg386.imageshack.us%2Fimg386%2F2070%2Ffirstshots02tu4.jpg&hash=e2a827d33d4e2bb67749ed0ca824dd54d1181b9c)

Picture a quad transformed by more realistic curves...


David
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Emperor Stormont on April 09, 2007, 07:43:54 PM
Oh I love the curves, so much more realistic and a 100% must for a city, would love to be able to use these in my cities, esp the surburbs. Great work  &apls
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Gaston on April 09, 2007, 08:14:39 PM
Very nice indeed, David.    Wish I had the knowledge to give you about the "how to" aspects of this.   Alas, I am sill ignorant in the ways of this.   LOL


---Gaston
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: stewart_garden on April 10, 2007, 12:28:55 AM
I agree with all those above - these would add much needed realism to the game's road curves.  I just wish I had the skills to offer more than yells of support from the sidelines.

Stewart
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: ExiLe on April 10, 2007, 06:32:39 AM
Great work on the roads, even though I am uncertain of the 'usage/time spent' is worth it. ;)
If everybody in the sc4 community had your commitment, sc4 would have been a 10x cooler game.

&apls

take care,
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: dedgren on April 10, 2007, 09:20:02 AM
Over at ST in this thread [linkie] (http://www.simtropolis.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=23&threadid=87909&enterthread=y&STARTPAGE=1) ST member memo said

Quotededgren, I can help you with the paths. If you send me the Lot, I'll try to assign proper paths.

I responded today with
Quote
Hey, memo- thank you for the offer of assistance.

A  bunch of questions (thanks in advance for your, or anyone else's, time in responding)- if you "assigned proper paths," what does the lot become?  I'm guessing not a puzzle piece (but I'm just guessing).  I'm presuming as well that pathing does not make the lot appear in the "road" portion of the submenus.  Does pathing mean that it remains just a lot with paths?  How is that different from transportation enabling?  Will pathing allow a properly configured lot

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg338.imageshack.us%2Fimg338%2F6200%2Fcurve45512working01in3.png&hash=e1db88ff375928d56dbc2471a0b5401d823c4de7)

to connect directly to diagonally laid out roads (which transit enabling apparently does not).

Part of the reason (the part beyond the basic desire to learn something about this in general) I'm wondering about some of these things is because they impact how the lot is set up.  Should the road be a base or overlay texture?  Does pathing somehow free it from being on a lot altogether.

I'm going to duplicate this post over at SC4D- again, I really appreciate your interest, and hope that this can go somewhere.

I raise the same questions here- any transit geeks out there with answers?


David
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: FromTheAshes on April 10, 2007, 09:38:47 AM
What an awesome idea! Please create a euro-textured version too!
...and, of curse, a transparent base in the final version  ;D
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: memo on April 10, 2007, 10:30:08 AM
The Lot becomes a transit enabled Lot, but with paths in order that cars follow the route of the road. Nevertheless, the paths can also be used to make such a puzzle piece. Paths only contain values which describe the route of automata.
Unfortunately, it isn't possible to put Lots into the road-submenu.
Diagonal transit-enabling is indeed possible. You can therefor use the values 01 and 03 in SC4-Tool. Don't mind about the description, it's a bug of SC4-Tool. ;) However, your diagonal texture doesn't fit to diagonal roads of SC4 because it crosses the tile in the corner. It should look like this:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg413.imageshack.us%2Fimg413%2F6540%2Froadbt0.png&hash=e326246b93e0b50508b0887521b3919c00eebbd8)

The road texture should be an overlay-texture. You need to reserve your own range in the BSC-texture index, if you haven't already. However, if the base is transparent, the Lot is susceptible for the water-graphics-bug (?).
Did that answer your questions?
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: jplumbley on April 11, 2007, 05:12:19 AM
Im not the best transit geek... Actually far from it!  Alex can atest to that :P

But I have done some playing around with it, it might be a good idea to try to make these curves work with RUL overrides.  That would cause less issues and on top of that its draggable.  Its only a matter of finding a way to override the textures without losing something elsewhere.

For the S-Curve, it may be best to use the same RUL as the Roundabouts use.  That way when you draw that specific layout, your S-Curve will appear rather than the ugly one!  And the awesome part about your S-Curve is you have is drawing so well that it fits in the same tile footprint as the original one.

It looks awesome though Dedgren!
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: jeronij on April 11, 2007, 11:04:53 AM
Oh, no, another interesting project going on, and I am so busy with the bridges at the moment... ::) I will keep an eye here anyway.

Also, I think that using RULes would make these curves more useable. Better than puzzle pieces indeed. But more complicated probably  ;)
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Tarkus on April 11, 2007, 03:00:41 PM
Well, I can say that I'd prefer the RUL override implementation over doing a Puzzle Piece or a TE Lot.  The override wouldn't actually be that tricky if one used 0x00000008 (the Road Roundabout RUL, as jplumbley mentioned) due to its setup being more accommodating for large-scale overrides.  Plus, the curves would likely allow building on their sides more readily as far as I know, which may be a little trickier with puzzle pieces, even if the 0x10000000 RUL file were coded such that the surrounding tiles were blank.

And I personally would like to see 0x10000000 get freed up some.  It has a finite number of spaces for puzzle pieces (there's 4,096 possible rotation loops, if you use the entire range from 0 to F on the last number--65,536 if you count the individual instances in the rotation loops), where as the others are much less limited.  (And with the number of pieces I'm having to make for the RHWMIS, I need as many open loops as I can get--it would be impossible to make a lot of that stuff draggable and offload it to another RUL. :D)

And jplumbley, I agree 100% with you about trying to find a way to do it without replacing anything.  I believe the NAM does have some LUA scripts for optional overrides, like for the Extended Ground to Elevated Highway Transition.  Whenever you connect a Ground Highway to an Elevated Highway and the Highway is straight for a certain number of tiles, it actually pops up a dialog box that asks you if you want to replace the standard Maxis transition with the NAM Extended Transition. 

It may be possible to do such a thing with these curved pieces.  Unfortunately, I haven't really messed around with LUA scripts, so I'm not even remotely skilled with it.  And as far as I'm concerned, you're an alright transit geek.  It's partially my fault for not getting those TLA-5 overrides done yet. :P

-Alex
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: jplumbley on April 11, 2007, 05:41:26 PM
Quote from: jeronij on April 11, 2007, 11:04:53 AM
Also, I think that using RULes would make these curves more useable. Better than puzzle pieces indeed. But more complicated probably  ;)

Actually Jeronij, I dont think it would be all that complicated... Especially if we use the RUL 0x0000008 (Roundabouts one)..  It is designed so that if certain tiles are drawn to create a certain pattern of textures they will get overriden with a new set of textures defined in the RUL.  This method will allow for users to zone right upto the curve without losing the 2 corner pieces lost when using a puzzle piece.

@Tarkus  I dont know anything about LUA scripts, but if I am not mistaken Daeley, might know a thing or two.  We could inquire there.  Find out what is possible in that regards.

Im also wondering if we can actually get Lakeyboy's Avenue Slip Lanes to work using 0x00000008....  It may be easier than what I was trying with 0x00000002 (the one with RHW)... I think thats the number.
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: jeronij on April 11, 2007, 11:58:42 PM
JP, I should have added "...for me"  ;)
I am glad to see that there is knowledge enough to deal with this project  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Colyn on April 12, 2007, 01:53:49 AM
Is the Daeley Tool on the LEX not the thing to use to make the PATH Files ?
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: memo on April 12, 2007, 06:11:21 AM
Quote from: Tarkus on April 11, 2007, 03:00:41 PM
Plus, the curves would likely allow building on their sides more readily as far as I know, which may be a little trickier with puzzle pieces, even if the 0x10000000 RUL file were coded such that the surrounding tiles were blank.
Firstly, I have to contradict. Development is also possible next to puzzle pieces, for instance the single diagonal streets puzzle pieces. ;)

Moreover, I don't think it's feasible to use the RUL file 0x00000008 in order to replace the "ugly" S-Curve by the new one because one additional tile would be required.
These tiles would be required for the new S-Curve:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg89.imageshack.us%2Fimg89%2F8788%2Fcapture04122007134654nd9.jpg&hash=a40d422f6998ff148738e7c5620017a26a9ce0d6)
But only these are occupied by the ugly one:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg89.imageshack.us%2Fimg89%2F6171%2Fcapture04122007134734cg7.jpg&hash=cd1ec9994305cdd66ecd727b74de9b3ff5e36d17)
Since the aforementioned RUL file can't add a tile, you need to think of another layout.

I'd prefer a puzzle piece especially because it's slope-conforming and I don't expect many possible bugs or I rather do expect bugs with rule overrides or the like. However, it's just my opinion. ;)

Quote from: jplumbley on April 11, 2007, 05:41:26 PM
This method will allow for users to zone right upto the curve without losing the 2 corner pieces lost when using a puzzle piece.
Have you ever used a big puzzle piece or interchange-base related item such as a cloverleaf interchange? ;) It doesn't waste the corner tiles, but they are useable for development. So unlike Lots, interchange-base related items don't need to be rectangular.

Quote from: Tarkus on April 11, 2007, 03:00:41 PM
And I personally would like to see 0x10000000 get freed up some.  It has a finite number of spaces for puzzle pieces (there's 4,096 possible rotation loops, if you use the entire range from 0 to F on the last number--65,536 if you count the individual instances in the rotation loops), where as the others are much less limited.  (And with the number of pieces I'm having to make for the RHWMIS, I need as many open loops as I can get--it would be impossible to make a lot of that stuff draggable and offload it to another RUL. :D)
I'll definitely keep you from using all available rotation rings. ::)
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: jplumbley on April 12, 2007, 06:51:30 AM
Quote from: jeronij on April 11, 2007, 11:58:42 PM
JP, I should have added "...for me"  ;)
I am glad to see that there is knowledge enough to deal with this project  :thumbsup:
Well, I am definately not a strong Transit modder but would like to learn.  Tarkus and I have built up a relationship where we can atleast bounce ideas off each other and learn from them.

Quote from: Colyn on April 12, 2007, 01:53:49 AM
Is the Daeley Tool on the LEX not the thing to use to make the PATH Files ?
Daeley's told for PATH files is awesome and would be one portion of this task.  But, the question we had doesnt deal with PATHing, it deals with having a popup menu like when you draw an avenue under an elevated highway and then a popup asks you would you like to place off ramps to the avenue from the elevated highway.  So, no this is not the tool we need unless this is an added feature to it that I havent seen.  As far as I know, these are done with LUA scripts but other than that I know absolutely nothing about LUA scripts and maybe Daeley can give us a better idea.

@memo and Tarkus  Would these pieces be good for addition into the NAM rotation rings for road pieces if we went this way?  Or are those rotation rings full already?
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: memo on April 12, 2007, 07:30:51 AM
The LUA file included in the NetworkAddonMod.dat is only necessary for El-rail UDI. In order that a popup window opens, you need a special comment in the interchange RUL file. However, it's more complicated for curves as i've just experienced. ;)

Since the rotation rings aren't exhausted, IMO, they would. Still they are a real waste of space in game nonetheless. ;)
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: jplumbley on April 12, 2007, 07:41:32 AM
Quote from: memo on April 12, 2007, 07:30:51 AM
The LUA file included in the NetworkAddonMod.dat is only necessary for El-rail UDI. In order that a popup window opens, you need a special comment in the interchange RUL file. However, it's more complicated for curves as i've just experienced. ;)

See... Im still learning something new every day... Just look at my sig :P
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: memo on April 12, 2007, 08:13:11 AM
I have to admit that I might have been a bit overhasty. I managed a puzzle piece to be placed automatically, but without the popup window. I jumped to the conclusion that it would be easy to integrate it, apparently not. Anyway, I learned something new today as well.
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: dedgren on April 12, 2007, 09:25:19 AM
I have been completely eaten up by RL this past few days- returning to this thread was like getting blasted by a firehose.  I am constantly amazed by how much you folks know that I have no conception of whatsoever...

A couple of observations from "cherry-picking" the comments:



I can understand that there is a desire to develop in every conceivable open gridsquare.  Regularly spaced open gridsquares in connection with this or any other of the curves I've proposed creates an undesireable and unrealistic visual effect (although, truth be told, there are so many of those situations in the game (concrete sidewalks everywhere or "jaggies" along diagonal roads in the countryside) that the eye just tends to pass over them after a while.  I never really thought, though, that any of these curves were really intended for developed areas.  When I first envisioned them, I had in mind Phil's (pvarcoe) great road to the top of the mountain pass in Transforming Teton [linkie] (http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=143.msg15678#msg15678).  Trees and rocks and stuff fit into those gridsquares, in my mind.  And, at least with the road on a lot, that stuff can be plopped to the extent it is available.  As a planning note, it is unlikely that highway engineers would allow any structures or other things that would obstruct the view to be placed so close to the edge of the road at either end of or along a curve of this sort due to "sight-distance" issues.  So, is the ability to develop in these gridsquares in truth such an issue?


I'm in the process of changing the 45 degree curve so that it will have the diagonal end pictured fully on a gridsquare.  A few tidbits of interesting information along this line-  I'm pretty sure that the "official game" road pixel width is 80px.  As best I can tell, everything is created at 96dpi (if I am wrong about any of this and you know the correct number, blow me a big raspberry in a comment and please set things straight).  There are thus 24 pixels on either side of a road in any gridsquare where the road leaves along a perpendicular or horizontal axis.  If the road leaves a gridsquare diagonally, it is 112px wide, leaving 8 pixels on either side.  If I'd known this dimensional information before I started, it would have saved an hour or so working it out then testing it.


Woo Boy Howdy!  Thanks for the interest (if the comments on this thread are any gauge of such, this sort of thing should have been done a long time ago).

OK, so here's the deal.  Tonight when I get home, I will zip and attach to a comment .pngs of each of the three curves (in gridsquare multiple 96dpi dimensions, thus the S-curve would be 512x256px at 96dpi) for the community's use.  I would hope that one or more of you geniuses out there who have been commenting on this thread (that's meant in all seriousness- you know who you are) could then take those and work your magic on them.  As soon as I see that they can in fact be made functional in the game, I will take the time to do roads with other textures and streets.  I'd like to get some feedback as to whether ground highways (which I know I can create wide radius curves for) are also feasible- if so, I'll be happy to attach those in "game" and asphalt textures as well.  I'm not trying to shirk any work here, folks.  I just have no skill at this beyond creating 'da pretty pictures.

n.b.:  Alex (Tarkus)- I'm also happy to create anything "wide radius" you need for the RHW.  I know you are probably getting close to a release, so let me know if you need something speedy.

Please let me know, btw, by commenting in this thread if it would be better if I used another format (i.e. .bmp?), another dpi (72, 150, whatever?), or should slice the curves up into 128px by 128px pieces.  I will do whatever is deemed most helpful- I'd love to see these curves in use in the game as soon as possible.


David

p.s.:  I've also taken a stab at redoing the texture (I guess it's a texture- the track, whatever) used for the wide radius rail curve in the most recent name, which looks pretty cruddy in wider views.  I see, by looking closely at it, how it was created- it looks like it might have been assembled out of many small straight sections so as to avoid the need to literally create each tie in vector graphics.  Given the result, I'm willing to create each tie in vector graphics...  -DE







Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: jplumbley on April 12, 2007, 12:49:04 PM
Quote from: dedgren on April 12, 2007, 09:25:19 AM
I have been completely eaten up by RL this past few days- returning to this thread was like getting blasted by a firehose.  I am constantly amazed by how much you folks know that I have no conception of whatsoever...

I have to say... I dont know alot about transit modding, but I know a little.  I know that if you come up with something, I will do my best to find a solution to whether it is possible or not and then attempt to make it work!  But, my limitation is I know aboslutely nothing about texturing, BATing, etc.  So, you amaze me  :satisfied: with the textures you have come up with Dedgren, I know I wouldnt be able to do it with my knowledge.  If I can, I will at very least help with the process or find out how to do it, to get your textures into the game in the best way possible; to honor your great creation!  It just may take me a while :P... I have read alot in the time that I have been around, but I still have a LONG way to go before Im ever as good as Tarkus or Memo at the transit stuff!
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: memo on April 12, 2007, 03:20:04 PM
Quote from: dedgren on April 12, 2007, 09:25:19 AM
p.s.:  I've also taken a stab at redoing the texture (I guess it's a texture- the track, whatever) used for the wide radius rail curve in the most recent name, which looks pretty cruddy in wider views.  I see, by looking closely at it, how it was created- it looks like it might have been assembled out of many small straight sections so as to avoid the need to literally create each tie in vector graphics.  Given the result, I'm willing to create each tie in vector graphics...  -DE
That would be great and I'd really appreciate that. You are actually right regarding how it was created. ;D My texturing skills are very limited. After having read this thread first, I installed a vector graphics programm, but somehow messed it up being discontented and still don't know how to create vector graphics. :D ::)
I've experienced that rail track textures don't have the same colour in each zoom level which makes it difficult to get the right colours. Besides, textures for puzzle pieces have to be darker than the original rail textures because they are brightened due to the s3d-models. Would it be much more work to create additional textures for Pegasus' alternate railway mod - for it is quite a popular mod? Though I know that's probably a bit much.
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: dedgren on April 13, 2007, 02:18:06 PM
RL has slowed me up a bit- I've attached the S-Curve and 45-Curve .pngs to this post.  The 90-Curve will be this evening.

Please note that the S-Curve pieces are symetrical, so you use the three of them for the top half of the curve, then spin them around for the bottom.  When you see them, that'll make more sense.


David
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: dedgren on April 13, 2007, 06:19:41 PM
Double posting alert- I'm almost ashamed...

...where's a mod or admin when you need one?

Here's a quick and dirty of the 45-Curve with really lousy (ignore, please) textures underneath.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg237.imageshack.us%2Fimg237%2F1664%2Fcantconnectfs7.jpg&hash=df62147e954284cc2563d2334f74eb554dd48c90)

I'm ashamed to admit it- I can't figure out how to use SC4Tool to allow the diag road to connect to the lot.

Let's figure this out, folks...  The sooner we do, the sooner shite like the "game" 45 degree curve will be a thing of the past.


David
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: thundercrack83 on April 13, 2007, 06:25:05 PM
Since I know absolutely NOTHING about how any of this works, forgive me if this seems like a dumb question: Is making this curve harder or more complicated than making the rail 45° curves? Can you apply the same techniques from that to this current project?
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: jplumbley on April 13, 2007, 06:37:30 PM
@thundercrack  The same principals of this project would apply to all texture based networks, roads, one-ways, avenues, rails, etc.  But the 3d networks like highways and el-rail would be trickier and require different modding methods.

@dedgren  In my experience I have not found a way to do diagonals with TE lots, this may be a better idea if it was turned into a puzzle piece instead.... But Im not a puzzle piece expert... Tarkus?....  The puzzle pieces would work better and not lose those corners.
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Tarkus on April 13, 2007, 06:46:07 PM
David, the diagonal TEing is a little tricky sometimes, though I haven't messed around with it too much.  I'd concur with jplumbley and memo that the puzzle piece method would probably offer the best functionality, and the automata would be forced to actually follow the curves.  And thanks for releasing the textures.  I may mess around with them to see what I come up with, especially now that I'm almost done expediting a long-awaited modification.  ;)

And memo, thanks for correcting me on the whole RUL override issue.  I hadn't envisioned that there would be a spot of 2x2 in there, which would make the override extremely difficult. 

-Alex
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: MAS71 on April 13, 2007, 07:41:08 PM
Hello David ;)

Nice one!! Good idea &apls
We can very natural expression is possible by them. :thumbsup:

I want more great variety of roads courve but I understand a importance to make them well. &mmm

Thank you for your BMP(texture) mini pack David :thumbsup:
I want to use them effectively for my works.
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: HabLeUrG on April 13, 2007, 08:23:23 PM
thats a good idea for better realism at game  ;)
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Pat on April 13, 2007, 09:44:18 PM

David you are soooooooooo right where is the Attack Squad when you really need them Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
Ohhh wait arent you on the team? lol anyways hmmm Shite of the past is a good way to put them
curves if the problem can be solved and i cant wait for the end result  :thumbsup: Kudo's to you
my friend - pat
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: dedgren on April 13, 2007, 10:19:44 PM
I am once again bagging it for the evening early- All the RL gremlins are slain, but I've just reached the limit.

A parting question-

memo said:


QuoteDiagonal transit-enabling is indeed possible. You can therefor use the values 01 and 03 in SC4-Tool. Don't mind about the description, it's a bug of SC4-Tool.

I've tried those codes, my friend, and I'm not having any success dragging a diagonal "game" road onto the lot.

Here's where I'm changing things- perhaps I'm just missing the boat somewhere.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg85.imageshack.us%2Fimg85%2F6659%2Fsc4toolquestionsoi2.jpg&hash=c636f13985c902f6fb4e10752a30a8ad91cf9fa8)

The circles, of course, correspond to changing the "Rep 15" value from "02" to "03" (I also tried "01"- same result).  Each time I saved the lot, fired up SC4 and opened up my test region.  Nuffin!  No diagonal connection.

I'm presuming that the "description bug" you are referring to, my friend, is in the list next to the question mark.  The fact that there are only six values listed out of the 256 (or however many) possible ones makes me think that maybe diagonal connections are just an unlisted code away...

I'm pleading at this point that if anyone knows anything helpful, let me know quick.  Otherwise I will get up tomorrow and, instead of working on 3RR (which I've now abandoned for three days or so- longer than I'm comfortable with, and the collaborators are probably about a day from open revolt) I'll start testing each of the 250 remaining values at about five minutes a shot (make the change-save the lot-exit SC4Tool-start up SC4-enter the test quad-select and plop the lot-try to drag a diagonal road onto it-sigh heavily-close SC4 without saving-start up SC4Tool-start the TE Editor-open the lot-make the change-and repeat until done).  I know that because I tested two: "05" and "0C, and it took just about ten minutes to do both.

As James Brown [linkie] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Brown) said- Help Me!  Someone surely knows what that value is- or can spot what I'm doing wrong.

I'm going to go have a vat-size goblet of vin ordinaire and head for bed.

Tomorrow!


David


Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Serkanner on April 14, 2007, 02:13:22 AM
One who has the knowledge how to make diagonals transit enable is swamper77, perhaps a question thrown in that direction might help you out here.
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: memo on April 14, 2007, 04:22:03 AM
The values 01 and 03 are used for diagonal transit enabling:
For the tile you have shown, it results in:
North: 01
West: 00
South: 00
East: 03
The adjacent tile to the right should have the value "West: 03" and 00 for the other directions.

It isn't possible to have a real orthogonal-to-diagonal curve on a TE Lot, so you need custom paths using Rep 16. This is necessary anyway in order that cars follow the route of the smooth curve. As I've already said, I can take on this job, but I need the Lot for this purpose. It would be convenient if I received it today because I'll have to deal with RL for the next two or three weeks.
If you want to learn how SC4-Paths work, there are good tutorials available. :)
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: dedgren on April 14, 2007, 09:33:26 AM
memo-just up and passing through on the way to breakfast...

...fumbles way through steps...

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg66.imageshack.us%2Fimg66%2F8554%2Fyeszg4.jpg&hash=8948735a5bfdcdf642d9a4111a92e42d9bb8d4e0)

The pic says it all.  YOU ARE THE MAN!

So- I will do a complete lot for you in a bit.  I'll do the other two curves as well, and will email them to you if they are above the file limit here (anyone wanting them is welcome to them, but until they are properly pathed, they are just eye candy.  I presume you want the road surface as an overlay texture and the underlying land as the base texture.  Anyone who knows of an existing texture that is a good "average" match for c.p.'s Columbus terrain colors- please let me know.

This. Is. Just. So. Great!


David
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: HabLeUrG on April 14, 2007, 10:28:26 AM
excellent work!  :thumbsup: &apls

I'll be waiting for a complete set  ;D of course if you realese them! can't wait for it!  ;)
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: TheTeaCat on April 14, 2007, 10:53:13 AM
The pic says it all.  YOU ARE THE MAN!

&apls &apls &apls &apls
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Pat on April 15, 2007, 01:00:40 AM
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg208.imageshack.us%2Fimg208%2F2633%2Fdittoxs7.jpg&hash=1e529da288cd4f85753efc2c0d43563673f76c0a)

Yuppers that is all i got to say - pat
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: schm0 on April 15, 2007, 11:28:10 AM
Are these ploppable? I know they can be implemented in a drag-style environment, depending on the situation. It seems that making them draggable would be the most difficult part of this project, because of the dozens of different combinations. How many people are working on this with you?
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: dedgren on April 15, 2007, 11:55:26 AM
Okie, dokie.  This is where I'm at with this.

After "adventures" (involving much cursing and gnashing of teeth) in texture ID-land, I have finally got all three of the curves created in a "base texture" mode.

Here's the one you've not seen in the game...

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg78.imageshack.us%2Fimg78%2F1264%2F90curvecompareyb2.jpg&hash=c0a42d8bc29fb3dc4e869b9b70672b777cde8944)

I think, next the widest radius 90 degree curve that the game will create, that looks pretty good, IIDSSM.  I'm using, btw, c.p.'s grass texture "0xDDF8F000" from the "BSC Cycledogg TexturePack V01."  More about that in a mo...

So here's each curve in turn, with a few trees thrown in for good measure.

The S-Curve.
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg260.imageshack.us%2Fimg260%2F6722%2Fscurvewithtreesjm5.jpg&hash=c2eb8c643f78858e6c6ad9bf4b39e6a0a6c9e6aa)

The 45-Curve.
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg409.imageshack.us%2Fimg409%2F85%2F45curvewithtreesia8.jpg&hash=15c6712a7b1c922c9c8010a20574d53fbb513e87)

The 90-Curve.
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg256.imageshack.us%2Fimg256%2F1850%2F90curvewithtreesks3.jpg&hash=62193d5e99e74e7f0e4fc8f7ebecae95e314fae8)

As an aside, here's a glitch I encountered along the way when I TE'd something wrong.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg250.imageshack.us%2Fimg250%2F8522%2F45curveoopsxi6.jpg&hash=7307a653fb986d48367b4b1a2f3652ab266aff7e)

That has some real possibilities, as I could probably just about take stuff "off the shelf" to create a curve-junction like that.  But...

Our friend schm0's questions provide a good point of departure.

QuoteAre these ploppable? I know they can be implemented in a drag-style environment, depending on the situation. It seems that making them draggable would be the most difficult part of this project, because of the dozens of different combinations. How many people are working on this with you?

I can't take any more time away from 3RR (I'm already getting worried posts).  I've fiddled with this during a particularly difficult RL interlude (tax time, staff changes at work, extension of the mother-in-law visit, and just helping my wife on her road to recovery)- I'm not being fair to peopleon SC4D I'm leaving hanging on other stuff by continuing here.

So, with this post I donate what I've done to the SC4 community.  Attached are the three lots- they can be used as eye-candy as is.  They will need to be pathed, or someone can take things further (as is my fervent hope) and do puzzle-pieces or draggables or something really nifty.

I'm around to ask for anything that would help folks with those efforts- I can fiddle with textures and resave them (I have the road surfaces on their own, and am sure that someone who knows what they're doing with overlay textures could turn them into such in a minute or two (LOL, BadSim!)) to order.  But I've got to move on with the other stuff I have in progress.  If someone can perfect this stuff and get it on the LEX, you'll be everyone's hero.  You don't even need to mention my name- just seeing proper curves there will be reward enough.

I do need to return to my use of cycledogg's texture.  For it to be properly used in a final version for distribution, if that's what happens, the BSC TexturePack should be noted as a dependency.  I have rolled the single texture up with the .zips I've created here for convenience, and without any intention to violate this wise (and fair) rule.

Thanks for being such great friends and understanding all this.


David



Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Badsim on April 15, 2007, 01:55:07 PM
Quote from: dedgren on April 15, 2007, 11:55:26 AM


I'm around to ask for anything that would help folks with those efforts- I can fiddle with textures and resave them (I have the road surfaces on their own, and am sure that someone who knows what they're doing with overlay textures could turn them into such in a minute) to order. 


David



Hi David ,

I've just downloaded your Lots and saw them with LE . 
It's a real pity that you didn't find so far the help requested about a  such great idea . I've already created base textures for my own use but overlays are more complex . I never have had the spirit to try but I don't think someone can realize so many "in a minute" ...
BTW , warm congratulations for your efforts ... considering your RL requirements ( and concerns ) , I don't know how you manage to give us already so much of your time ...   ;)
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: thundercrack83 on April 15, 2007, 01:58:42 PM
Well, David, I must commend you for your outstanding efforts in this project. The 90° curve looks especially great, but all in all, it is a great project. I hope that more will come of this because it is very beneficial for the game, which is evident in the "Before and After" shot of the 90° curve. Other than wishing for the skills to tackle this myself, the only thing I can wish for is someone to pick up where you left off and run with it!
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Tarkus on April 15, 2007, 02:20:04 PM
Well, I've been thinking about the whole override thing . . . There may actually still be a way to do it.  It'll be a little more complex, but it will involve using a Road pattern that no one in their right mind would use, so it won't replace anything useful, and it will fit with the pattern memo posted. 

Making a puzzle piece wouldn't be too much of a problem for me.  I've whipped out 1x1s in 15 minutes before, and although these are a little more complicated, I don't have to mess around with the models (I can do it with flat 16m by 16m squares), and the RUL entry should (hopefully) not be too difficult. 

I may try these attempts a little later and hopefully post some successful results soon.

-Alex
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Rayden on April 15, 2007, 02:39:19 PM
Nice work David, now I see why 3RR has not seen any post updates from you on the last 3 days. :P I also downloaded your lots and will try to path them myself.
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Tarkus on April 16, 2007, 01:28:29 AM
Hi David-

Well, I managed to mess around with it a little, and I was able to turn the S-Curve into a working puzzle piece.

Here's the preview model (I still need to adjust it some, it's 1-tile off in placement, and I didn't have the transparency totally working):
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg86.imageshack.us%2Fimg86%2F8352%2Froadscurve1sx5.jpg&hash=354437a6e5ebf248eb2eb178cd51bdb43c6faeca)

Here's the piece plopped down.  I've added Road stubs to the ends, such that one can easily drag Roads out of it:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg101.imageshack.us%2Fimg101%2F6493%2Froadscurve2if9.jpg&hash=93ab7da233c3d2e4d08fcaebefe1e65431cf112f)

And the one you're all probably the most curious about--the DrawPaths shot, to show the thing actually works:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg101.imageshack.us%2Fimg101%2F2060%2Froadscurve3xw6.jpg&hash=aadd8fedcb2ac1f90e600dae0a0fa10d3dc7f8ae)

I really took my time with the pathing to make it look right.  I actually had been taking an algebraic approach, but it was making a bigger mess, so I kind of winged it the best I could. :D

So the S-Curve is essentially ready.  Once I get the 45 and 90 degree turn puzzle pieces finished, I'll attach them here. 

-Alex
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Serkanner on April 16, 2007, 01:57:05 AM
Maxis, eat you heart out!!  ... both David and Tarkus, great work you both ahve done in making the game one step better again. Looking forward to use these a lot.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: wouanagaine on April 16, 2007, 02:23:59 AM
Great Jobs guys !
&apls
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: metasmurf on April 16, 2007, 03:50:05 AM
Wow this is really good!
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: memo on April 16, 2007, 04:26:12 AM
Quote from: Tarkus on April 16, 2007, 01:28:29 AMI really took my time with the pathing to make it look right.  I actually had been taking an algebraic approach, but it was making a bigger mess, so I kind of winged it the best I could. :D
That was wasted time because I had already written the paths for the S- and 45-curve. ;) Anyway, if you still need the paths for the 45-curve, I'll attach them to this post.
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: dedgren on April 16, 2007, 08:26:33 AM
Alex (Tarkus) and memo- Hey, it never occured to me that you two might not be talking with each other as you went along on this...

That's my fault- I'm sorry that my "urging things along" was so indiscriminate.  I would suggest, though, that the two of you collaborate on the final product, as well as making a joint upload to the LEX when the time comes.  You might check with Silvio (Rayden), too.

I see from the comments that this effort has begun to attract attention (thanks, folks!  The credit, though, should go to the folks who did the hard part).  When I opened the thread this morning, I saw Andreas (Andreas Roth) lurking, and I've never gotten the sense that he does anything just for grins.

Anyway, great job, and thank both of you very, very much.  If I can be of further help with the road surfaces, let me know.


David


p.s.:  I realized I had never attached the 90-Curve .pngs (road surface only)- that's corrected here.


Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Tarkus on April 16, 2007, 09:46:15 AM
Thanks, memo, for the paths . . . you still managed to save me a lot of time with the 45-curve. ;)  What plan of attack should we take for the 90-curve?  And how should we assign the IIDs?  I've got the 45-curve in the 5046NNNN range.

And thanks again, David, for releasing the textures!  Without that crucial step, this project more than likely wouldn't be happening.  I myself am not great at texturing, and that's actually been holding up some of the mods I've been working on (namely the RHWMIS and wider RHWs, though I've been recruiting a few texture artists).  And as far as the transit-modding community goes, I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one for whom that is the case. :D  So you definitely deserve credit too. 

-Alex
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Andreas on April 16, 2007, 10:47:17 AM
Quote from: dedgren on April 16, 2007, 08:26:33 AM
When I opened the thread this morning, I saw Andreas (Andreas Roth) lurking, and I've never gotten the sense that he does anything just for grins.

Well, I finally decided to pay SC4D some more visits, since ST is barely usable anymore these days. I must admit that this place has a few too many subforums, so it's getting confusing now and then, but even with the sheer number of forums, a visit is a lot faster than anything on ST. ;)

Anyway, just let me say "great work" on the initial project, and having the gentle curves as fully functional puzzle pieces is even better! I will have to wait for frimi's magic to get some european textures, but I'm definitely looking forward to use this for my rural areas.
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: thundercrack83 on April 16, 2007, 11:00:33 AM
Alex, that S-Curve looks remarkable! Great job! I can't wait to see the 45° and 90° turns.

I'd also like to take the time to thank you and everyone else who as committed to making this project into a success! I'm sure I can speak for everyone when I say that it's very much appreciated. Thanks again, everyone!
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: memo on April 16, 2007, 02:35:49 PM
I've attached the paths for the 90-curve. Maybe they aren't perfect though.
BTW, I'm not a good at texturing either. This often delays me.
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Tarkus on April 16, 2007, 03:20:48 PM
Thanks everyone!  Of course, I'd give a lot of credit to David and memo as well.

memo, thanks for the paths for the 90 degree!  I can take care of the rest of it, if you don't mind.  And it's good to know I'm not the only transit modder who can't texture.  ;)

I have some RL stuff to tend to, but I should have some time in the next couple of days to finish these up.

-Alex
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Masochist on April 16, 2007, 04:01:44 PM
You guys are amazing!  This is definately something that's been lacking in every SC version so far (besides the smooth diagonal transition we got in 3000).  Much thanks for all your work! :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Gaston on April 16, 2007, 07:45:47 PM
Absolutely incredible, guys.      This is some really top notch stuff.     Thanks.


---Gaston
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: dedgren on April 16, 2007, 07:46:03 PM
Alex (Tarkus)...

QuoteI myself am not great at texturing, and that's actually been holding up some of the mods I've been working on (namely the RHWMIS and wider RHWs, though I've been recruiting a few texture artists).

memo...

QuoteBTW, I'm not a good at texturing either. This often delays me.

Guys, you have acquired, when this project is up on the LEX, a texture slave.  If you want it, let me know what it is- I'll do it, and gladly.

Remember that- 'cos I'll really be hacked off if you don't.


David
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Tarkus on April 16, 2007, 08:37:42 PM
Quote from: dedgren on April 16, 2007, 07:46:03 PM
Guys, you have acquired, when this project is up on the LEX, a texture slave.  If you want it, let me know what it is- I'll do it, and gladly.

Remember that- 'cos I'll really be hacked off if you don't.


David


Wow . . . thanks for the offer David!  I'll definitely remember that, and I'm sure memo will be happy too.  First, though, I'll get the last two curves ready. ;)  The paths we worked up can actually be easily accommodated for other networks (as can the RUL entries), so if you ever wanted to continue the series, the turn-around time from texture set to puzzle piece would be quicker.

-Alex
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Amberite on April 17, 2007, 11:05:17 AM
Hey guys first time poster but I've been lurking a while. Had to post when I saw this thread!

I've been wanting this in SC4 forever! I really hope that you guys can make it work and from the looks of it you're doing a fantastic job. Here's hoping that soon we have working curvy roads! Keep up the great work guys.
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: toxicpiano on April 17, 2007, 11:48:09 AM
MOAR! Looks fantastic, I hope someone will make euro textures for them  ::)
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: CabraBuitre on April 19, 2007, 08:10:40 PM
Quote from: toxicpiano on April 17, 2007, 11:48:09 AM
MOAR! Looks fantastic, I hope someone will make euro textures for them  ::)


I agree!  ... but it's easy for me to agree, agreeing is just words, it takes no skill.  Words I have.  Skills I lack.  That's why I appreciate the creators so much!!
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Tarkus on April 20, 2007, 01:36:08 AM
Well, I think it's time for an update . . . ;)

I've turned the other two curves into NAM-style puzzle pieces

Here's the 45 degree curve:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg132.imageshack.us%2Fimg132%2F8426%2Froadcurve1cb4.jpg&hash=7a9320df914e549ebdf836618607df094b6cb55c)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg132.imageshack.us%2Fimg132%2F6438%2Froadcurve1pathedtt1.jpg&hash=00f199a1775dc10727dfb860cd58afa4b490d359)

Here's the 90 degree curve:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg154.imageshack.us%2Fimg154%2F2442%2Froadcurve2pathedlc0.jpg&hash=9523dee57f895272a1724488a4a2f64815e5f1ad)

And here's a couple overview shots showing all the curves being used:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg154.imageshack.us%2Fimg154%2F5789%2Froadcurve4overviewvz8.jpg&hash=b4b883dc196b42fbe3dc85b0045f70fc605082a1)

And closer up:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg72.imageshack.us%2Fimg72%2F8233%2Froadcurves3overviewoe3.th.jpg&hash=c2bee6c63bcda3472f5b28966af30fd56538cfec) (http://img72.imageshack.us/my.php?image=roadcurves3overviewoe3.jpg)

There's still a few other things I need to do before these are released:
-Make reversed versions.  Right now, the way the rotation loop worked out, they only face one direction, which limits their usability. 
-Finish preview models for the 45 and 90 degree curves
-Reassign the IIDs for a couple textures.  Right now, I'm getting some weird glitches in the textures when I place zones near them, which seems to be because the IIDs I chose for some of the pieces are activating the wealth-level effect in rather undesirable ways.

Then, these will be pretty much ready.  And memo, thanks again for the paths--they look excellent to me :thumbsup:.

-Alex


Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: wouanagaine on April 20, 2007, 01:51:26 AM
Impressive, !

Like it a lot.
Does it allow development around and with which pattern ?
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Tarkus on April 20, 2007, 02:02:30 AM
Thanks, wouanagaine.  And to answer your question, they do allow development around them, and the development conforms somewhat to the curve.  It looks somewhat like with the diagonals, but slightly smoother.  I'll post a pic of the patterns up when I get the wealth-level glitch fixed.

-Alex
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: HabLeUrG on April 20, 2007, 02:18:08 AM
this is amazing!!, can't wait for it to be realeased  &apls :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: metasmurf on April 20, 2007, 03:19:12 AM
Quote from: HabLeUrG on April 20, 2007, 02:18:08 AM
this is amazing!!, can't wait for it to be realeased  &apls :thumbsup:

what he said  &apls
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Andreas on April 20, 2007, 05:17:01 AM
Excellent work indeed! The next NAM will be one of the best ever. :)
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: pvarcoe on April 20, 2007, 06:27:48 AM
The pieces are looking great guys. Nice job on both the texture and the paths.

Looking ahead to the future a bit, a similar set of curves for streets (or is it roads, I always get the two confused) would be a very useful addition. I use those extensively in the countryside in my rural based MD.

Thanks for the hard work! It's really paying off.
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: dedgren on April 20, 2007, 09:36:37 AM
Alex- Do the road surface textures remain separable from the final product?- In other words, if I tweaked them into a v2 that matched up with the game roads better (toning down the centerline, for starters), could they just be plugged in without a whole bunch more work or is it back to square one?  Also, in terms of game "street" textures, I know that streets are narrower than roads by a bit.  I'm happy to do street surfaces for the various curves over the weekend, but you have taken on such a slug of work here- I don't want to seem to be presuming- It would be so great just to have these three perfected and available.

-memo and Andreas:  I'm working on redoing the track surface to match up to the wide rail curve that's presently in the NAM- it's 90 iterations of a very tedious task, and I still don't know if it will come out right in the end.  Initial tests, though, are promising- I might post a look or two over the weekend.  I've also done a couple of things with ground highway surfaces that folks might find interesting...

Sorry no pics here.  Soon, though.


David
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Tarkus on April 20, 2007, 09:44:02 AM
Hi David-

Yes, the road surfaces are separable from the final product, and changing the textures like you're talking about would be an extremely easy task.  As far as the "street" textures go, one of the biggest obstacles with the modding process is getting the RUL coding correct (that 90-curve really gave me a fit last night), but I can actually just copy and paste everything if the curves are of the exact same layout.  I'd just need to make a few minor adjustments to the CheckTypes (changing them from Road to Street).  The only thing that might have to be adjusted is the pathing--I haven't messed around with the street network much so I don't know if the pathing is set up so that the automata follow at +/-2.5 on orthogonal pieces as they do with most of the other networks.  If they are, the whole thing is basically nothing but a copy and paste job. 

Hope that answers your questions, and best of luck with the new textures.  I'm sure they'll come out great. ;)

-Alex
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: memo on April 20, 2007, 11:11:09 AM
Quote from: dedgren on April 20, 2007, 09:36:37 AM
I've also done a couple of things with ground highway surfaces that folks might find interesting...
You don't need to make textures for ground highways because they consist of models. The standard textures can be used for models.
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Andreas on April 20, 2007, 12:24:07 PM
About textures in general: They are always interchangable, either by replacing the FSH files in the DAT, or by creating an addon file, using the same IDs, that is loaded later. The Euro Road Textures Mod works the same way, actually.
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: thundercrack83 on April 20, 2007, 12:43:00 PM
Amazing work, my friends! Absolutely amazing. I can't wait to see further development.
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Tarkus on April 20, 2007, 01:13:22 PM
David, I just checked the paths on the Street network, and it appears that everything is set up the same with the paths, so it would be nothing more than a copy and paste job with a few very minute (and very quick) alterations.  It could be done in a matter of minutes once the textures are ready.

memo, actually, I thought of a way in which the Ground Highway could be turned into a texture-based network, but it could potentially be way more work than it's worth. :D  It would involve voiding out most of the Ground Highway exemplars (Group ID 0xEBE084D1) and placing textures at the same IIDs. 

And thanks to everyone who's been following/commenting on this thread!

-Alex
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: dedgren on April 20, 2007, 01:17:30 PM
QuoteYou don't need to make textures for ground highways because they consist of models. The standard textures can be used for models.

Oh, poop- there goes that 400'/128m radius 45 degree wide curve I have mostly drawn....


David
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Gaston on April 20, 2007, 01:22:03 PM
And once again  ;D :
Welcome to page 5

Absolutely incredible , guys.    This is what the game has lacked all along, IMHO.   Can't wait to see this in action.   It is gonna be a deffinate "must have" for the 3RR collaboration.


---Gaston
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: glepet on April 20, 2007, 04:35:54 PM
I have a question...
Will these turns work on inclines or will the ground need to be level?
This is beautiful work you folks are doing.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Tarkus on April 21, 2007, 02:11:56 AM
Thanks guys!  And to answer your question, glepet, these will work on inclines.

As far as a status update, I've gotten the RULs set up for the reversed S and 45 degree curves (the 90 didn't need to be reversed), and the only two things I have left are:

-Fixing the pathing on the Reversed 45-degree curve (it's 2:10am here in Oregon and my brain is too tired to wrestle with SC4Path files)
-Add preview models for Reversed S-Curve, both 45-degree curves and the 90-degree curve

After that, the modding portion of the project will be completed. :thumbsup:

-Alex
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: jeronij on April 21, 2007, 03:12:12 AM
This is a great development, and really useful  :thumbsup:

Thanks to all the involved  ;)
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: marcosMX on April 21, 2007, 08:08:30 PM
You guys are amazing  :D Thank you so much  ;) :)
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: godjcjk12 on April 22, 2007, 09:35:17 AM
Great Work. Should there be such curves for Avenues, One Ways, RHWs, and Maxis Highways? "$Deal"$
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: BigSlark on April 22, 2007, 12:27:11 PM
*Off Topic Alert*

Maxis Highways, also known as FHW (Fake Highways), aren't close to dead yet, godjcjk12?

*End Off Topic Alert*

Excellent work to everyone that's been involved with this project. I'm glad that 3RR collaboration will allow me to start fresh as replacing all the ugly road curves in my current region would cause me to scream, and that's putting it mildly.

Hope everyone is having a good day.

Cheers,
Kevin
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Tarkus on April 22, 2007, 02:17:53 PM
[off-topic] Kevin--that's too funny. Friends don't let friends use Fake Highways. :D [/end off-topic]

Well, anyway, I managed to get that pathing issue fixed on the flipped 45-curve, and right at the moment, I'm exporting a few preview models.  Then, I just need to update a few small EffDirs, fix a texture that went awry, and test to make sure the preview models are aligned properly. 

Once that's done (likely in the next 30 minutes), the wide radius curves will be complete.  ;)

-Alex
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: jeronij on April 22, 2007, 02:24:56 PM
 :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: memo on April 22, 2007, 02:56:40 PM
Quote from: Tarkus on April 22, 2007, 02:17:53 PM
Well, anyway, I managed to get that pathing issue fixed on the flipped 45-curve
I don't understand. You can automatically flip puzzle pieces using "Transpose = 1" in the InterchangeOrdering RUL file, so that there can't occur issues specifically with flipped puzzle pieces.
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Tarkus on April 22, 2007, 03:05:32 PM
memo, you're 100% correct.  I had forgotten about the "Transpose" feature in the RUL files and had been doing it manually with a whole separate puzzle piece.  Thanks for correcting me on that one.  ;)

And everyone,  it looks like 30 minutes has changed more into about 60 minutes.  They're almost done. ;)

-Alex
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: dedgren on April 22, 2007, 03:42:14 PM
Aw heck...  30 minutes, 60 minutes...

Take another hour.  We've only waited four years for this.

Alex, you and memo will earn your places in SC4 history this afternoon.


David
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: bwatterud on April 22, 2007, 04:16:43 PM
Oh man.  I can't take the suspense!   :'(
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: metasmurf on April 22, 2007, 04:20:09 PM
This will be a revolution to the game  &apls
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Frankie on April 22, 2007, 04:33:06 PM
This is a great project! image how great it'll be to get rid of the jaggy ugly maxis road turns :)
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: BigSlark on April 22, 2007, 08:10:58 PM
Patiently waiting to hear from Alex... ;D
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Tarkus on April 22, 2007, 08:17:36 PM
Well, it unfortunately took longer than expected due to a RL nuisance  ?=mad)=:

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg246.imageshack.us%2Fimg246%2F907%2Fpoweroutagecb7.jpg&hash=81a6c37b27b6d0754f2398d6174668f894672189)

Power outage.  A line about a block away from me got zorked up somehow.  I didn't see a "no power" zot above my place, though, and fortunately, it didn't turn dark and abandon.  (And no, I don't live at Taco Bell). :D  But it did derail the project a little, and seriously screwed up my day . . .

I managed to implement memo's idea, and I'm just fixing a couple things with the preview models.  They aren't showing up in the transposed versions . . . shouldn't take me long to figure out, though.

My apologies for the delay. &mmm

-Alex



Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: BigSlark on April 22, 2007, 08:43:57 PM
Alex,

I understand completely. Imagine living in tornado and hurricane country...

Oh, and if you did live at Taco Bell, I'd hate to think about how many strange dishes you could come up with that involve tortillas and refried beans.

As usual, I'm glad you keep on doing your thing, we'd be in a world of hurt without you.

Cheers,
Kevin
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Tarkus on April 22, 2007, 10:25:53 PM
Well, I messed around with things a little more and it appears that the pieces are now entirely working. ;)

Here's the road I showed earlier, which has now been extended:

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg101.imageshack.us%2Fimg101%2F9384%2Fwrcurves1wy5.jpg&hash=0eab4a8d54acd2e02a0d9aa52b0e82a38c1cf8ed)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg84.imageshack.us%2Fimg84%2F4833%2Fwrcurves2yk4.jpg&hash=1caa534c807989157f2ad0dcc8aafae715e59079)

The tyrannical grip of the SC4 grid is loosening . . .  ;)

And Kevin, I'd say I've got it easy compared to the South and Midwest in terms of that sort of stuff--I probably shouldn't be complaining about not having power for just a few hours.  And about the Taco Bell thing--no kidding. :D

-Alex
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: thundercrack83 on April 22, 2007, 10:31:24 PM
Wow, that's really looking good, Alex! Someone above asked something about whether this method could be applied to the one-way roads and avenues, and I was wondering the same thing. Can you take all the work you've done with this and use it to do the same thing with the other roads, or do you have to go back to the drawing board? Just curious.
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Tarkus on April 22, 2007, 10:36:49 PM
Thanks, Dustin!  Actually, at least 90-99% of the stuff I did modding wise on these puzzle pieces carries over. At least for One-Way Roads, the changes I'd have to make would be pretty minor.  It would be mostly a copy-and-paste job.  For the Street network, it would be entirely a copy and paste job, with just a few small RUL changes.  The RUL coding for Avenues is a little more complicated. However, though a lot of what I did here would still apply, so it could actually be done rather quickly. ;)

-Alex
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: dedgren on April 22, 2007, 10:58:23 PM
Congratulations, Alex.  You and memo have made a bit of SC4 history here today.

QuoteThe tyrannical grip of the SC4 grid is loosening . . .   ;)

Indeed, my friend.  Indeed.

Well done, guys!  I'll get to work on cleaning up the road surface textures now.


David
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: dedgren on April 23, 2007, 12:36:11 AM
Bump!

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg206.imageshack.us%2Fimg206%2F3509%2Fwideradiusteaserex7.jpg&hash=2ebf38e15dc73e48274d47e1b702b8922fb3a068)

Congrats again!


David
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: wouanagaine on April 23, 2007, 03:04:49 AM
 :'( I want them
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: jeronij on April 23, 2007, 04:15:44 AM
These are the most excellent news  &apls
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Andreas on April 23, 2007, 06:41:26 AM
Looking awesome! :thumbsup: BTW, are those "seasonal God Mod trees"? Or just Mayor Mode mode trees with the fall model from Cycledogg's prop pack? I assume you didn't use lots with transparent base textures, since you placed them next to the road, but no sidewalks showed up. And if so, where can I download them? :)
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: pvarcoe on April 23, 2007, 09:33:03 AM
Those look great as a stand-alone
and even  better in-game.
Very nice work guys!
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: thundercrack83 on April 23, 2007, 09:35:53 AM
Quote from: Tarkus on April 22, 2007, 10:36:49 PM
Thanks, Dustin!  Actually, at least 90-99% of the stuff I did modding wise on these puzzle pieces carries over. At least for One-Way Roads, the changes I'd have to make would be pretty minor.  It would be mostly a copy-and-paste job.  For the Street network, it would be entirely a copy and paste job, with just a few small RUL changes.  The RUL coding for Avenues is a little more complicated. However, though a lot of what I did here would still apply, so it could actually be done rather quickly. ;)

-Alex

Well, if that's case, I wouldn't mind seeing some avenue and one-way road curves made in this same fashion. It's not really that I'm requesting this, think of it more as wishful thinking! Anyway...Great job again, my friend!
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: jeronij on April 23, 2007, 10:44:56 AM
You have opened a can of thunders Alex ¡¡¡

I would also love to have these curves for some other transit networks  ::)  ;D
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Livin in Sim on April 23, 2007, 10:55:31 AM
Alex and David,

You guys rock!!!!  You are AWESOME!!!  A coup has taken place today, the rule of The Great Square has been overthrown!!  Down with the ugly corners, long live the gentle, natural curve!!  I dreamed all last night of winding drives through the countryside.  Thank you.

()flower()
--Liv
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Tarkus on April 23, 2007, 11:17:10 AM
No problem. ;)  Thanks everyone for all the compliments and kind words, and thanks to David for his texturing work, and memo for doing most of the pathing and pointing out a very useful feature of RUL files I hadn't really worked with. 

As long as David's willing to do the textures, I'm willing to mod further curves.  And wouanagaine, soon enough, you'll have them. ;)

-Alex
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: dedgren on April 23, 2007, 11:55:00 AM
QuoteAs long as David's willing to do the textures, I'm willing to mod further curves.

Absolutely- here's my plan.  I'm going to re-do these textures after some back-and-forth in this thread with Alex (Tarkus) and anyone else in the know about texture "scaling," which I think is the key towards making things look better.  I'll also work on colors and width, as they need to be tweaked.

After that, I was going to do streets (end of this week, and the pathing for roads will likely be usable without change, so these may be available very quickly).

I use a "no arrow" one-way road mod- couldn't the current paths just be made one-way with the current textures?  I hate to sound like an igmo- if I do, hey...

Avenues are not, by nature, found in rural or undeveloped areas.  The "game" curves, while too sharp almost certainly, are probably suited for the urban grid.  That said, I'll be happy to take that on after streets.

I'm still working, based on a representation to memo, on cleaning up the NAM wide radius rail curve texture.  I may, given what I hope to learn over the next little bit, be able to do that relatively quickly as well.  At a minimum, I'm fairly certain I can improve its appearance.

I need to have someone point me at what, definitively, "Euro textures" are.  As soon as I'm sure everyone means the same thing, I'll take a look and get back to you.

-Andreas- I'll post later about the trees.  Thanks so much for everyone's interest in all this stuff.


David


Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: rooker1 on April 23, 2007, 12:04:32 PM
This is incredible.  Another new step towards a more perfect game, if that's possible.  I personelly would like to see the avenue done as well.  No pressure of coarse. 
Everyone is doing a great job and it is much appreciated by (everyone) or at least me. &apls

Robin   :thumbsup: &apls :thumbsup: &apls
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Badsim on April 23, 2007, 12:17:26 PM
Yes, incredible ... so I'll believe it only when I'll see it on my own game ... so I'll thank you 3 only at this coming time for this major improvement which definitely will change the face of SC4 . $%Grinno$%

&apls  &apls  &apls
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: sebes on April 23, 2007, 12:48:18 PM
Unbelieveable!  This will change the game entirely. Together with Prepo's diagonal W2W the game will not even be close to what Maxis ever released!  &apls  &apls  &apls
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: mjig_dudy on April 23, 2007, 01:29:20 PM
wow!these are excellent, can't wait to use them  ;D

will the texture difference between the normal roads and curves be fixed, or is this something which is almost impossible to get right?

anyway, i love these and can't wait to get my hands on them  $%Grinno$%
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Gaston on April 23, 2007, 01:55:13 PM
I can only say ditto.   Everyone else has said it already.


---Gaston
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: derek_pearce on April 23, 2007, 02:19:31 PM
when is this gonna be released
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Andreas on April 23, 2007, 03:41:16 PM
Quote from: dedgren on April 23, 2007, 11:55:00 AM
I need to have someone point me at what, definitively, "Euro textures" are.  As soon as I'm sure everyone means the same thing, I'll take a look and get back to you.

Well, basically it's a mod initiated by thorvin, and (more or less) re-made and finished by frimi, replacing all textures showing the typical yellow double-line on the road textures with a single white dashed line (so they look similar to the in-game one-way road textures, but without arrows). For texture resources, download the Euro Road Textures Mod that frimi has uploaded to the SC4D exchange (search for "frimi" and you should find the individual files). Since the gentle curve pieces will be included in the next NAM most likely, the textures should go into the NAM Euro Textures file. Most roads in Europe have those dashed white lines, but in curves, the line is not dashed (which means: overtaking not allowed), so it looks like this: http://www.ethlife.ethz.ch/images/sanbern1-l.jpg

Quote-Andreas- I'll post later about the trees.

Neat. Or just PM me. :)
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: dedgren on April 24, 2007, 01:02:53 AM
An eye candy post, mainly- but with a little bit of info, too.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg99.imageshack.us%2Fimg99%2F4492%2Ftitlehr1.jpg&hash=071909ca88bedd92d2c93e4869383c5c5e5a3e24)

I pulled the quad with Tejada Spring on it onto the test bench this evening, looking to see what would happen if I tried the wide-radius curves up a 4-5% grade or so.

Spring foliage-
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg213.imageshack.us%2Fimg213%2F9026%2Fwindyroad01gu9.jpg&hash=79a8131bb44bb294435e1b1cc0d20869884e4cb3)

Fall foliage-
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg81.imageshack.us%2Fimg81%2F1160%2Fwindyroad02dm0.jpg&hash=80dc39ef2e30afd92641e1c5cd5d8f441b4587ed)

Yep. Looks exactly like what I had in mind.

How steep is that section of road?

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg206.imageshack.us%2Fimg206%2F8558%2Felevationgainhj9.jpg&hash=0c924295e52345946350e6be7a96cf71288b95f8)

The small circles are around the elevation in meters.  Game water is 250, so this is up a ways.  The gain here is about 38 meters.  My eyeball estimate of the length of the stretch of road is 1,100 meters.  That's just about a rise of one meter for every 29 of run, or a bit steeper than 3%.  No sweat in a car- a nice workout on a bicycle.

The puzzle pieces are finicky, but if you futz with them a bit in placing them you can get some pretty good slope tolerance, as indicated by the 45-Curve in the large circle.  Tomorrow I'll post the problems I encountered, not the least of which were large holes blasted through the bottom of the monitor ever so often...

...well, not quite, but these are not your grandmother's plops.  They definitely come with a 'tude if they don't like where you've put them.

A few random shots to close.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg207.imageshack.us%2Fimg207%2F692%2Fbridgeandcurveza3.jpg&hash=16ed5a2383199e7c6c1d3aeacce0958a4a6b784d)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg208.imageshack.us%2Fimg208%2F8356%2Fcurvesub1.jpg&hash=7f092f6a7218f7ef8ef20fa188347961e713d2a3)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg412.imageshack.us%2Fimg412%2F3058%2F45curve01ij1.jpg&hash=53b9cfb2a9148d341b1e59381007c78219096259)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg170.imageshack.us%2Fimg170%2F9779%2F45curve02pi5.jpg&hash=81204b86bb2fd4fef31ff0a861c7fc04dd20ed0a)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg208.imageshack.us%2Fimg208%2F5531%2Fbends02eu1.jpg&hash=f2a8ed760aa8ab55f0102f707b5ad536f24a7ac5)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg138.imageshack.us%2Fimg138%2F3271%2Fbends01pu4.jpg&hash=01dd58067d857f418b8e9b64553e80915c223803)

I like 'em!  A lot!

Later.


David
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Elektra on April 24, 2007, 01:15:28 AM
Sexy curves and some 'tude'.  $%Grinno$% :P  You couldn't ask for anything more.  I think these have brought the game to a whole new level.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Tarkus on April 24, 2007, 02:09:18 AM
Thanks everyone, and David, I'm especially glad to hear you like them and it looks like you're putting them to excellent use. ;)  I may have to use them in my next update of Argentum, if you don't mind. ;)

As far as the whole "finicky" plopping issue, that's something I've run into with just about every NAM puzzle piece, and it drives me crazy as well to get the dreaded "NAM Sinkhole".  They were particularly painful to deal with when I was initially testing the RHWMIS before I had Preview Models in and was blindly plopping stuff down.  It's something I'd personally like to see fixed if possible, since it can be rather annoying at times.  I believe it has to do with the ConsLayout settings on the RUL file, though memo may know more.

-Alex
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: memo on April 24, 2007, 03:40:47 AM
I don't know more because I've never been confronted with this issue. The only puzzle piece which brought this issue was the road onramp. Though I have an idea referring to the ConsLayout. (BTW, the issue doesn't occur on flat land.)
+ doesn't affect the slope a puzzle piece is built at.*
- and | indicate a straight network tile, so the slope is changed due to the settings of the slope mod. Besides, straight networks only have slopes in the direction of the network, but not crossways. You probably understand what I mean. ;)

So if there is a road connection to a puzzle piece, there are certain limitations regarding the slope-conformingness, since the connection has to be plane crossways to the road. Thus it doesn't make sense to use + for the tile next to the road connection, but - or |. And maybe for the other tiles as well in order that the slope mod applies to them.

*However, it is affected if there is a connection to a normal network on the adjacent tile. That's why the implementation of onslope puzzle pieces with which I'm currently experimenting is so difficult. ;)

Well, it's just an idea. ;)
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Darmok on April 24, 2007, 06:23:21 AM
Hi David,
I'm the ghost of ST past!   ;)
Hehehe... Slowly returning to an "almost" normal pace, I think it's been at least a month since I've been to SC4D! Not even to lurk! Geez...

< ...snip... >

Back to your long curves project, I've read the whole thread this morning and just can't believe all the efforts all of you have put into this project!
This will really revolutionize the game!
Well that's about it for now.
The best to you and family my friend.
Take care
-John

Mod Edit:  I took the liberty to edit John's post, as he noted in 3RR that he had mistakenly left in some non-wide radius curve references here.  John-it makes way more sense now.  Thanks so much for commenting on this project.  -DE
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: wouanagaine on April 24, 2007, 06:27:07 AM
Just a question, how does it shows in Regional View ?
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: jplumbley on April 24, 2007, 06:30:45 AM
Waaa...  Memo I actually almost followed that.  Its been a while since I have looked at the puzzle pieces so I would have to refer back to as what those +, -, | actuallly meant... But I followed it, and I think if I remember correctly + means empty square, and to ignore as is.
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Gaston on April 24, 2007, 07:10:39 AM
Wow guys these are looking great.     If you need someone to test "The Long and Winding Road" [ Linkie (http://www.lyricsfreak.com/b/beatles/the+long+winding+road_20014808.html) ] puzzle pieces, let me know.   ;)


---Gaston
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: dedgren on April 24, 2007, 09:33:35 AM
These are just some pics of errors encountered in laying the wide-radius curves last night for you folks to chew on during the day.  I'll post some details tonight, but am in haste right now.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg256.imageshack.us%2Fimg256%2F6117%2Ftrouble06po3.jpg&hash=224ef3a13ba4ee7eac4ba05e6152b0fd18203635)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg238.imageshack.us%2Fimg238%2F6177%2Ftrouble05bg3.jpg&hash=a05aee2c722aeff4538b083ca7f97d955ac8e320)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg253.imageshack.us%2Fimg253%2F7573%2Ftrouble04js5.jpg&hash=dda67a8b3a3fa338a6c9610fb21dbeb3e1614b76)

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(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg238.imageshack.us%2Fimg238%2F9603%2Ftrouble02ds3.jpg&hash=211727890c6fa0ddf4486e5d1b9b0cfc8c78dcab)

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This last is an artifact road texture that appears in the oval gridsquare position whenever any lot is plopped in either of the two gridsquares pointed to by the arrows.  It replicates every time- I only took one pic.

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David
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Tarkus on April 24, 2007, 11:08:37 AM
David, it looks like that last one may be the result of wealth level activation coming from the seasonal tree lots.  Something I thought I had fixed, but apparently not. &mmm

And memo, I actually have had strange things happen with the puzzle pieces on almost entirely flat land as well.  Come to think of it, though, it has been a problem only with multi-tile pieces like the Road onramp.

-Alex
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Filasimo on April 24, 2007, 03:38:27 PM
hope ya guys are able to fix that error but i must say what could be useful of those sinkholes......u can actually make them a tourist site.... "come one, come all, come visit SC's pit to nowhere!"  ::)
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: dedgren on April 26, 2007, 03:33:00 PM
LOL, Filasimo-

Quotewhat could be useful of those sinkholes......u can actually make them a tourist site.... "come one, come all, come visit SC's pit to nowhere!" 

Gives a whole new meaning to the phrase, "watch out for that curve, it's a doozy!"

* * *

OK, so here I am with a few hours on my hands to work on fixing up the cr-ppy way (jaggies, moire patterns, you name it) that the road surface textures look at smaller scale (3 and below) game view levels, and I'm just beginning to realize how little I actually know about any of this.  Help me here, folks, if you can.

I created textures based on 96 dpi based on 128px by 128px per gridsquare.  My sense is that the game engine then scales them down to 64x64, 32x32, 16x16, and 8x8 gridsquare sizes on the fly at the different view levels, or does it all at once in memory when the puzzle piece file is scanned on boot-up with the rest of the plugins file.  I also (think I) know that the game does not deal with the .bmps I created but rather .fsh files, which I presume are a proprietary to SC4 image format.

So, while I'm prepared to create much cleaner textures at different levels (a frickin' pixel at a time if I have to- that's how passionately I feel about this project), am I headed in the right direction or just spinning my wheels?  Ordinarily I love to take the time to learn the details of this stuff.  Right now, for many reasons, I need to be (and you want me to be- trust me on this) just focused on result.

So, Alex (Tarkus), memo, anybody...

1.  Should I create road surface textures at each of the decrement levels I noted above, at different ones, or is that just a waste of time?

2.  If I should, what format (.bmp, .png, .fsh?) should they be in?

3.  If I need to work in .fsh format, is there an editor?

4.  If I'm all wet, what is it that I can do (please be excruciatingly explicit)?

I can do this right now or clean up the yard...

Thanks in advance for all your help, folks!


David
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Tarkus on April 26, 2007, 03:58:48 PM
Hi David-

Well, you're not all wet, fortunately. :D

To answer your questions, the way that the textures are usually imported and processed into the game is as follows.  Basically, when the texture is finished, it needs to be at a 128x128 pixel size.  PNG, JPEG and BMP are all generally supported formats for conversion to FSH, though PNG tends to produce the highest file quality and as such, it is preferred. 

There isn't really a "FSH editor" per se, but there are two programs that are capable of converting these formats to the SC4-Native FSH format are SC4Tool (through the Texture Creator feature) and darkmatter's FiSHMan (they can also convert FSH to PNG, etc.).  Basically, you only need to produce the texture at the 128x128 pizel size, as the importing process will actually create the downsized versions in both programs.  Technically, as far as I know, it's also possible to import from a smaller size (64x64 or even lower) but then the conversion would be upsizing the 64x64 to 128x128 as part of the process, and would get all distorted. 

The game engine doesn't actually resize the textures on the fly, but rather, it loads a different texture based on the view level.  The puzzle pieces, generally, however, almost always rely on the 128x128px FSHs, except some of the GLR pieces.  The way most conducive to improving quality would likely be through using a higher resolution on the 128x128 PNG prior to importing to FSH. 

One other thing I probably should point out is that the game engine treats FSH files that are part of 2D/Texture-based networks (Roads, etc.) differently than those that are part of 3D/Model-based networks (Maxis Highways, El-Rail, all puzzle pieces, etc.).  The textures on 3D networks tend to come out much lighter than those on 2D networks, and one has to compensate by darkening them. 

If you want to see an example of this, try using anyone of the RHW puzzle pieces--neither qurlix or I bothered to darken the RHW textures for the pieces, so they stick out like a sore thumb.  (Though that will change soon.)  There is likely some sort of percentage which they need to be darkened by in order to match up, though I'm not certain what exactly that is--I'd have to do some trial-and-error.

Hope that helps!

-Alex
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Andreas on April 26, 2007, 04:05:47 PM
Hehe, I know your feelings, esp. when it comes to "make it pixel by pixel" - that's how I actually created the 90 degree GLR curve texture back then. It was still in early alpha stages, and nobody was there to create textures. The rest could be taken from the in-game el-rail textures, but obviously, no 90 degree curve was available, so I literally made it pixel by pixel, since my texture skills are rather mediocre (all my automata skins were drawn in a similar way, by using the pen tool ;) ). Anyway, I'm not an expert on textures at all, but here's what I know:

1.) As far as I know, puzzle pieces are textured models, rather than plain textures. So if there's only one texture, the game will rescale it as needed. For a better look, I guess separate models and textures for all zoom levels have to be made.

2.) The game needs FSH textures, but it's easy to convert them from PNG, BMP or another lossless format. Don't use JPG, because it tends to produce artifacts when processing it more than one time.

3.) Use your normal graphics program and save them as PNG, as suggested in 2.) You only need to make the 128x128 pixel version, FiSHMan or SC4Tool will create the other sizes automatically.

EDIT: Oh well, ALEX just has posted some in-depth info, but I'll post this anyway.  :P
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Glenni on April 26, 2007, 07:02:47 PM
That's....Pretty much what you would expect from roads here in Norway... the potholes of doom :D
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: dedgren on April 26, 2007, 10:07:21 PM
Alex (Tarkus) (and anyone else who would like them)-  Here's a V2 of the 90-curve road surface textures on a transparent background.  If you can send them back as before once incorporated, I'll stay up late and 'speriment.  They are darker, a little duller, have a gray line on the edges like the "game" roads, and I've blurred them just a tiny bit (all documented so that I can further tweak as necessary).


David
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: dedgren on April 27, 2007, 07:54:45 AM
V2 on right.  More in a bit...

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Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: jeronij on April 27, 2007, 08:16:40 AM
I usually convert the Maxis textures to greyscale, and then change the brightness to -25/-20 (sometimes more and sometimes less, depending on the texture itself)
For the USA road ( yellow double line), I simply play with the PSP copy and paste tools until I get a texture with the greyscale background and the colour texture as a new layer.

I works partially well for me and I use this quite primitive technique with the bridges I am creating. I hope this may help.
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: thundercrack83 on April 27, 2007, 10:56:30 AM
You're getting closer, David! Keep pluggin' away!
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: dedgren on April 28, 2007, 07:53:40 AM
We're baaa-ack!

Okay, I got up really early this morning and completely redrew in vector graphics the 90-curve at double-scale.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg245.imageshack.us%2Fimg245%2F5637%2Fv21examplewk6.jpg&hash=a592b9efac4093a81cf939a8f655f10bba5c7ae5)

I've added a straight section of road at each end to further blend the transition from curve to "game road (I noticed that it was so much better looking on the 45-Curve and S-Curve, which each already incorporate a short straight section at each end of the curve)- that's in the circle, with the same thing turned 90 degrees on its side at the other end as shown by the arrow.  I've further tweaked the gray border, which I was not happy with last time.

Alex (Tarkus), I stuck with the same radius curve in the same gridsquare divisions in the hope that this would preserve as much of the work you've done as possible.  Could you please redo the 90-Curve as a 5x5 gridsquare curve along the lines I've described and email it back when you can?  I'll test it as before and, if everything looks right, you'll have new road surface textures right back for the 45- and S-Curves, and we should be close to wrapping this puppy up.

V2-1 of the 90-Curve road surface textures are attached.

Thanks to all who have stopped by and provided helpful info.  I'm still puzzling over why the game engine appears to scale the game roads so smoothly- I am hoping that doing the vector graphics at a larger size then reducing and smoothing the output will help, but we'll see.


David
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Tarkus on April 28, 2007, 11:37:26 AM
Hi David-

Thanks for the updated textures! :thumbsup:  With the extra straight pieces on either end, I will actually have to re-code the RUL file in order to get it to work, though since it's a straight piece on the ends, that will make that process much simpler, and thanks for keeping the radius the same--that means I can re-use memo's paths. ;)

I've got a little RL to take care of this afternoon, but tonight I should have some time to mess around with it.

-Alex
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: thundercrack83 on April 28, 2007, 04:05:33 PM
That looks just about perfect to me, David! Great work, my friend!
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Gaston on April 28, 2007, 05:59:25 PM
This is some very sweet stuff, indeed.    Now that you added the straight piece I have realized that I was missing it all along.   I kept looking at the curve and thinking something just wasn't quite right.   Guess I know what is was now.   LOL


---Gaston
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: TheTeaCat on April 29, 2007, 04:05:19 AM
Great work thats been put in to this. &apls &apls

I am sure all the members are looking forward to hopefully seeing this released.
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Howling on May 01, 2007, 02:06:48 AM
Yes, excellent work is put in this fellars! Can't wait to tinker with them in mah regions!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: metasmurf on May 06, 2007, 04:32:00 AM
Any progress?
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Andreas on May 06, 2007, 05:40:56 AM
Quote from: metasmurf on May 06, 2007, 04:32:00 AM
Any progress?

Yes, of course. The NAM team is currently working on them, and they should become part of the next NAM. :)
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: hoshattack on May 06, 2007, 01:05:19 PM
Is there a link to download it before the new NAM comes out? or do I have to wait in agony until then?
Thanks.
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Tarkus on May 06, 2007, 01:08:50 PM
hoshattack:  Well, you will have to wait, but it won't be that long or agonizing. ;)  The next NAM is sooner than you think.

-Alex
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: metasmurf on May 06, 2007, 02:47:28 PM
Another question, will this puzzelpiece have basetextures, like dirt next to a farm, concrete next to commercial etc or will it be just transaprent?
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Pat on May 06, 2007, 02:49:12 PM

OK Alex you are killin me,  so how far off are we talking about for anther NAM???  Are we talking days
or weeks or even months arrrrrrgh - pat
 
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: dedgren on May 06, 2007, 03:02:03 PM
-pat (patfirefghtr)  Shame on you for asking.  The last time someone asked, the NAM went and hid for like a year...

LOL.  The NAM is like the Spanish Inquisition [linkie] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Spanish_Inquisition_%28Monty_Python%29).

-Andreas (metasmurf)  Transparent as currently developed.  I'm actually working on them again this week.  Ploppable stuff can be plopped in adjacent gridsquares, though, as I've done over at 3RR.

Patience, my friends...


David
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Tarkus on May 06, 2007, 03:28:57 PM
Nobody expects the NAM Team Inquisition!  :D

-Alex
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Pat on May 06, 2007, 03:31:33 PM

LOL OK so i guess i will sit back and wait then. - pat




But its allways fun to launch the NAM Inquistion, well at least try lol
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Frankie on May 06, 2007, 03:46:35 PM
I have a stupid question: I know this thread is called "Wide Radius Road Curves", But is it possible to create such wide radius turns for RHW? It would be a wonderful improvement over an already great mod  :thumbsup: (would it require a 3d model or just textures?)

/end stupid question
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Pat on May 06, 2007, 06:41:57 PM

LoL Frankie there is never a such a thing as a stupid question...  The only stupid question is one that is never asked...  Far as the question at hand i dont know personaly. - pat
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: thundercrack83 on May 06, 2007, 07:10:27 PM
Quote from: Frankie on May 06, 2007, 03:46:35 PM
I have a stupid question: I know this thread is called "Wide Radius Road Curves", But is it possible to create such wide radius turns for RHW? It would be a wonderful improvement over an already great mod  :thumbsup: (would it require a 3d model or just textures?)

/end stupid question

I wouldn't mind seeing that, too! I remember bringing up a point about it being implemented with the avenues and one-way roads, and Alex said that it could be done with those. I'm not sure about the RHW, though.
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: dedgren on May 07, 2007, 08:49:40 AM
Hi folks-

Streets will definitely be right along, as the pathing from roads does not need to be changed.  I'm hoping (Alex, memo, you guys out there seeing this?) that one-way roads are just a matter of changing a few settings.  Avenues offer up a whole new range of possibilities, but those are on the back-burner for a while while I sort out an Everest-scale to-do pile.

Great stuff, though, is right around the, er... corner bend.

[ ...walks off, cackling madly... ]


David

EDIT:  On reflection, bend is far more appropriate than corner for those who worry about such things.  -DE
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Tarkus on May 07, 2007, 09:50:10 AM
Yes, David, One-Way Road are just an issue of reversing one side of paths.  It's as easy as pie. ;)

-Alex
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: memo on May 07, 2007, 10:14:55 AM
Well, as far as I know, there are certain limitations of oneway road puzzle pieces. If I remember correctly, the onewayroads in the InterchangeOrdering RUL file have to run from east to west. Otherwise the paths didn't work correctly. Thus at least the 90°-curve could cause difficulties. Though I might be mistaken as my tests were quite some time ago.
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Tarkus on May 07, 2007, 10:22:42 AM
memo, wouldn't it have something to do with the OneWayDirection coding in the RUL file?  I haven't messed around with that feature as much as I'd like, but I'm guessing that it could affect things.

-Alex
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: memo on May 07, 2007, 10:41:05 AM
To my knowledge, one can't determine the direction of oneway roads in the Rules. It's determined by the direction into which it is dragged.
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Tarkus on May 07, 2007, 11:04:12 AM
Well, I was referring to 0x10000000, and of course, you can't drag anything out of 0x10000000.  I know there is a command in 0x10000000 which is used on some of the One-Way Road puzzle pieces that deals with One-Way Direction (OneWayDir).  Tropod talks about in the NetworkSpecs documentation for that RUL.  I haven't really used the command before, but it appears the default value (0) means that the One-Way is heading west (which would explain the east-to-west issue you were facing) ;).

Here's an extract from the Network Specs:

OneWayDir = #Number between 0-7#
OneWay Direction; this just says which direction the onewayroad is going.
0 / 1 / 2 / 3 / 4 / 5 / 6 / 7
West / NorthWest / North / NorthEast / East / SouthEast / South / SouthWest

-Alex
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: memo on May 07, 2007, 11:22:31 AM
I'm surprised to hear that. I didn't know that, but it's a very interesting point indeed. Actually, I've never really read Tropod's tutorial, so I've just glanced over it. There are a few things explained which I always wondered. :)
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: dedgren on May 07, 2007, 11:32:39 AM
Reading this thread is like listening to Einstein and Richard Feynman [linkie] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feynman) having a chat...

Great work, guys!


David
Title: Re: Wide Radius Road Curves
Post by: Andreas on May 07, 2007, 12:23:43 PM
Quote from: memo on May 07, 2007, 11:22:31 AM
I'm surprised to hear that. I didn't know that, but it's a very interesting point indeed. Actually, I've never really read Tropod's tutorial, so I've just glanced over it. There are a few things explained which I always wondered. :)

You never read that tutorial and still managed to create such a multitude of puzzle pieces? Good God, I shall bow down in front of you even further.  :)