Wide Radius Road Curves

[jplumbley]

JP, I should have added "...for me" 
I am glad to see that there is knowledge enough to deal with this project 

Well, I am definately not a strong Transit modder but would like to learn.  Tarkus and I have built up a relationship where we can atleast bounce ideas off each other and learn from them.

Is the Daeley Tool on the LEX not the thing to use to make the PATH Files ?

Daeley's told for PATH files is awesome and would be one portion of this task.  But, the question we had doesnt deal with PATHing, it deals with having a popup menu like when you draw an avenue under an elevated highway and then a popup asks you would you like to place off ramps to the avenue from the elevated highway.  So, no this is not the tool we need unless this is an added feature to it that I havent seen.  As far as I know, these are done with LUA scripts but other than that I know absolutely nothing about LUA scripts and maybe Daeley can give us a better idea.

@memo and Tarkus  Would these pieces be good for addition into the NAM rotation rings for road pieces if we went this way?  Or are those rotation rings full already?

[memo]

The LUA file included in the NetworkAddonMod.dat is only necessary for El-rail UDI. In order that a popup window opens, you need a special comment in the interchange RUL file. However, it's more complicated for curves as i've just experienced.

Since the rotation rings aren't exhausted, IMO, they would. Still they are a real waste of space in game nonetheless.

[jplumbley]

The LUA file included in the NetworkAddonMod.dat is only necessary for El-rail UDI. In order that a popup window opens, you need a special comment in the interchange RUL file. However, it's more complicated for curves as i've just experienced.

See... Im still learning something new every day... Just look at my sig

[memo]

I have to admit that I might have been a bit overhasty. I managed a puzzle piece to be placed automatically, but without the popup window. I jumped to the conclusion that it would be easy to integrate it, apparently not. Anyway, I learned something new today as well.

[dedgren]

I have been completely eaten up by RL this past few days- returning to this thread was like getting blasted by a firehose.  I am constantly amazed by how much you folks know that I have no conception of whatsoever...

A couple of observations from "cherry-picking" the comments:

• This method will allow for users to zone right upto the curve without losing the 2 corner pieces lost when using a puzzle piece.

I can understand that there is a desire to develop in every conceivable open gridsquare.  Regularly spaced open gridsquares in connection with this or any other of the curves I've proposed creates an undesireable and unrealistic visual effect (although, truth be told, there are so many of those situations in the game (concrete sidewalks everywhere or "jaggies" along diagonal roads in the countryside) that the eye just tends to pass over them after a while.  I never really thought, though, that any of these curves were really intended for developed areas.  When I first envisioned them, I had in mind Phil's (pvarcoe) great road to the top of the mountain pass in Transforming Teton [linkie].  Trees and rocks and stuff fit into those gridsquares, in my mind.  And, at least with the road on a lot, that stuff can be plopped to the extent it is available.  As a planning note, it is unlikely that highway engineers would allow any structures or other things that would obstruct the view to be placed so close to the edge of the road at either end of or along a curve of this sort due to "sight-distance" issues.  So, is the ability to develop in these gridsquares in truth such an issue?

• Diagonal transit-enabling is indeed possible. You can therefor use the values 01 and 03 in SC4-Tool. Don't mind about the description, it's a bug of SC4-Tool.  However, your diagonal texture doesn't fit to diagonal roads of SC4 because it crosses the tile in the corner. It should look like this:
  

I'm in the process of changing the 45 degree curve so that it will have the diagonal end pictured fully on a gridsquare.  A few tidbits of interesting information along this line-  I'm pretty sure that the "official game" road pixel width is 80px.  As best I can tell, everything is created at 96dpi (if I am wrong about any of this and you know the correct number, blow me a big raspberry in a comment and please set things straight).  There are thus 24 pixels on either side of a road in any gridsquare where the road leaves along a perpendicular or horizontal axis.  If the road leaves a gridsquare diagonally, it is 112px wide, leaving 8 pixels on either side.  If I'd known this dimensional information before I started, it would have saved an hour or so working it out then testing it.

• Please create a euro-textured version too! ...and, of curse, a transparent base in the final version

Woo Boy Howdy!  Thanks for the interest (if the comments on this thread are any gauge of such, this sort of thing should have been done a long time ago).

OK, so here's the deal.  Tonight when I get home, I will zip and attach to a comment .pngs of each of the three curves (in gridsquare multiple 96dpi dimensions, thus the S-curve would be 512x256px at 96dpi) for the community's use.  I would hope that one or more of you geniuses out there who have been commenting on this thread (that's meant in all seriousness- you know who you are) could then take those and work your magic on them.  As soon as I see that they can in fact be made functional in the game, I will take the time to do roads with other textures and streets.  I'd like to get some feedback as to whether ground highways (which I know I can create wide radius curves for) are also feasible- if so, I'll be happy to attach those in "game" and asphalt textures as well.  I'm not trying to shirk any work here, folks.  I just have no skill at this beyond creating 'da pretty pictures.

n.b.:  Alex (Tarkus)- I'm also happy to create anything "wide radius" you need for the RHW.  I know you are probably getting close to a release, so let me know if you need something speedy.

Please let me know, btw, by commenting in this thread if it would be better if I used another format (i.e. .bmp?), another dpi (72, 150, whatever?), or should slice the curves up into 128px by 128px pieces.  I will do whatever is deemed most helpful- I'd love to see these curves in use in the game as soon as possible.


David

p.s.:  I've also taken a stab at redoing the texture (I guess it's a texture- the track, whatever) used for the wide radius rail curve in the most recent name, which looks pretty cruddy in wider views.  I see, by looking closely at it, how it was created- it looks like it might have been assembled out of many small straight sections so as to avoid the need to literally create each tie in vector graphics.  Given the result, I'm willing to create each tie in vector graphics...  -DE

[jplumbley]

I have been completely eaten up by RL this past few days- returning to this thread was like getting blasted by a firehose.  I am constantly amazed by how much you folks know that I have no conception of whatsoever...

I have to say... I dont know alot about transit modding, but I know a little.  I know that if you come up with something, I will do my best to find a solution to whether it is possible or not and then attempt to make it work!  But, my limitation is I know aboslutely nothing about texturing, BATing, etc.  So, you amaze me  with the textures you have come up with Dedgren, I know I wouldnt be able to do it with my knowledge.  If I can, I will at very least help with the process or find out how to do it, to get your textures into the game in the best way possible; to honor your great creation!  It just may take me a while ... I have read alot in the time that I have been around, but I still have a LONG way to go before Im ever as good as Tarkus or Memo at the transit stuff!

[memo]

p.s.:  I've also taken a stab at redoing the texture (I guess it's a texture- the track, whatever) used for the wide radius rail curve in the most recent name, which looks pretty cruddy in wider views.  I see, by looking closely at it, how it was created- it looks like it might have been assembled out of many small straight sections so as to avoid the need to literally create each tie in vector graphics.  Given the result, I'm willing to create each tie in vector graphics...  -DE

That would be great and I'd really appreciate that. You are actually right regarding how it was created. My texturing skills are very limited. After having read this thread first, I installed a vector graphics programm, but somehow messed it up being discontented and still don't know how to create vector graphics.
I've experienced that rail track textures don't have the same colour in each zoom level which makes it difficult to get the right colours. Besides, textures for puzzle pieces have to be darker than the original rail textures because they are brightened due to the s3d-models. Would it be much more work to create additional textures for Pegasus' alternate railway mod - for it is quite a popular mod? Though I know that's probably a bit much.

[dedgren]

RL has slowed me up a bit- I've attached the S-Curve and 45-Curve .pngs to this post.  The 90-Curve will be this evening.

Please note that the S-Curve pieces are symetrical, so you use the three of them for the top half of the curve, then spin them around for the bottom.  When you see them, that'll make more sense.


David

[dedgren]

Double posting alert- I'm almost ashamed...

...where's a mod or admin when you need one?

Here's a quick and dirty of the 45-Curve with really lousy (ignore, please) textures underneath.



I'm ashamed to admit it- I can't figure out how to use SC4Tool to allow the diag road to connect to the lot.

Let's figure this out, folks...  The sooner we do, the sooner shite like the "game" 45 degree curve will be a thing of the past.


David

[thundercrack83]

Since I know absolutely NOTHING about how any of this works, forgive me if this seems like a dumb question: Is making this curve harder or more complicated than making the rail 45° curves? Can you apply the same techniques from that to this current project?

[jplumbley]

@thundercrack  The same principals of this project would apply to all texture based networks, roads, one-ways, avenues, rails, etc.  But the 3d networks like highways and el-rail would be trickier and require different modding methods.

@dedgren  In my experience I have not found a way to do diagonals with TE lots, this may be a better idea if it was turned into a puzzle piece instead.... But Im not a puzzle piece expert... Tarkus?....  The puzzle pieces would work better and not lose those corners.

[Tarkus]

David, the diagonal TEing is a little tricky sometimes, though I haven't messed around with it too much.  I'd concur with jplumbley and memo that the puzzle piece method would probably offer the best functionality, and the automata would be forced to actually follow the curves.  And thanks for releasing the textures.  I may mess around with them to see what I come up with, especially now that I'm almost done expediting a long-awaited modification. 

And memo, thanks for correcting me on the whole RUL override issue.  I hadn't envisioned that there would be a spot of 2x2 in there, which would make the override extremely difficult. 

-Alex

[MAS71]

Hello David

Nice one!! Good idea
We can very natural expression is possible by them.

I want more great variety of roads courve but I understand a importance to make them well.

Thank you for your BMP(texture) mini pack David
I want to use them effectively for my works.

[HabLeUrG]

thats a good idea for better realism at game 

[Pat]

David you are soooooooooo right where is the Attack Squad when you really need them Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
Ohhh wait arent you on the team? lol anyways hmmm Shite of the past is a good way to put them
curves if the problem can be solved and i cant wait for the end result  Kudo's to you
my friend - pat

[dedgren]

I am once again bagging it for the evening early- All the RL gremlins are slain, but I've just reached the limit.

A parting question-

memo said:

Diagonal transit-enabling is indeed possible. You can therefor use the values 01 and 03 in SC4-Tool. Don't mind about the description, it's a bug of SC4-Tool.

I've tried those codes, my friend, and I'm not having any success dragging a diagonal "game" road onto the lot.

Here's where I'm changing things- perhaps I'm just missing the boat somewhere.



The circles, of course, correspond to changing the "Rep 15" value from "02" to "03" (I also tried "01"- same result).  Each time I saved the lot, fired up SC4 and opened up my test region.  Nuffin!  No diagonal connection.

I'm presuming that the "description bug" you are referring to, my friend, is in the list next to the question mark.  The fact that there are only six values listed out of the 256 (or however many) possible ones makes me think that maybe diagonal connections are just an unlisted code away...

I'm pleading at this point that if anyone knows anything helpful, let me know quick.  Otherwise I will get up tomorrow and, instead of working on 3RR (which I've now abandoned for three days or so- longer than I'm comfortable with, and the collaborators are probably about a day from open revolt) I'll start testing each of the 250 remaining values at about five minutes a shot (make the change-save the lot-exit SC4Tool-start up SC4-enter the test quad-select and plop the lot-try to drag a diagonal road onto it-sigh heavily-close SC4 without saving-start up SC4Tool-start the TE Editor-open the lot-make the change-and repeat until done).  I know that because I tested two: "05" and "0C, and it took just about ten minutes to do both.

As James Brown [linkie] said- Help Me!  Someone surely knows what that value is- or can spot what I'm doing wrong.

I'm going to go have a vat-size goblet of vin ordinaire and head for bed.

Tomorrow!


David

[Serkanner]

One who has the knowledge how to make diagonals transit enable is swamper77, perhaps a question thrown in that direction might help you out here.

[memo]

The values 01 and 03 are used for diagonal transit enabling:

• 01 is a diagonal connection to the left
• 03 is a diagonal connection to the right

For the tile you have shown, it results in:
North: 01
West: 00
South: 00
East: 03
The adjacent tile to the right should have the value "West: 03" and 00 for the other directions.

It isn't possible to have a real orthogonal-to-diagonal curve on a TE Lot, so you need custom paths using Rep 16. This is necessary anyway in order that cars follow the route of the smooth curve. As I've already said, I can take on this job, but I need the Lot for this purpose. It would be convenient if I received it today because I'll have to deal with RL for the next two or three weeks.
If you want to learn how SC4-Paths work, there are good tutorials available.

[dedgren]

memo-just up and passing through on the way to breakfast...

...fumbles way through steps...



The pic says it all.  YOU ARE THE MAN!

So- I will do a complete lot for you in a bit.  I'll do the other two curves as well, and will email them to you if they are above the file limit here (anyone wanting them is welcome to them, but until they are properly pathed, they are just eye candy.  I presume you want the road surface as an overlay texture and the underlying land as the base texture.  Anyone who knows of an existing texture that is a good "average" match for c.p.'s Columbus terrain colors- please let me know.

This. Is. Just. So. Great!


David

[HabLeUrG]

excellent work! 

I'll be waiting for a complete set  of course if you realese them! can't wait for it!