Sim City 4 Devotion Forums

SimCity 4 Devotion Custom Content Showcase => Network Addon Mod (NAM) => NAM Creations => Topic started by: jondor on August 02, 2010, 08:01:09 AM

Title: RHW Regional Transport Map support thread
Post by: jondor on August 02, 2010, 08:01:09 AM
With the release (http://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=24992) of this mod, this thread will now be commandeered for support requests.

You can find the mod at Simtropolis for now: http://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=24992 (http://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=24992)


Continuing from my first post on the subject here (http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=990.msg337822#msg337822):
Quote
So.................

What happens if you combine the traffic volume data view with the region transport view?

This:
(http://www.thedwarfers.net/otherstuff/random/before.png)

Becomes this!
(http://www.thedwarfers.net/otherstuff/random/after.png)

There are a few caveats.  In order to get the roads and streets to stay relatively the same color, they changed to cyan to counteract the pinkish overlay.  (The streets are still a little pink at the moment)  Puzzle pieces (TuLEPs, wide curves, and bridges, etc) and diagonals show up in cyan or pink because the two overlays don't quite line up.

But for some, this alternative might be better than RHW not showing up at all.  $%Grinno$%

I'll be posting updates to this mod in this thread to avoid cluttering the RHW thread.

The way it works is by overlaying a customized car volume view on top of the regional transport data view. (Thanks to Maxis for using the same routine and exemplar types for all the data views!)

After a bit of tweaking it now looks like this:
(http://www.thedwarfers.net/otherstuff/random/updated_transport.png)
(The city tile here has had a bit of development done since the last images.)

The legend has also been updated and (although not related to the RHW issue) expanded to differentiate El-rail/GLR from Monorail/HSR:
(http://www.thedwarfers.net/otherstuff/random/updated_legend.png)

You'll notice that puzzle pieces are slightly less noticeable than before, but not eliminated.  Diagonal roads also do not show up as well as orthogonal roads.  This is a result of the overlay workaround.  The car volume overlay does not quite line up with the transport data view in these cases.  I believe the only way to completely eliminate this problem would be to make roads and highways the same color.

At this time, the mod is not quite ready to be released into the wild, but if anyone has any suggestions, I'd be happy to try them out and if anyone from the NAM team wants to help beta test it, I'll be happy to pass on the dat file.
Title: Re: RHW on the Regional Transport Data View!
Post by: samerton on August 02, 2010, 08:45:19 AM
What you've done so far is great! I can't wait for this to be released..!
Title: Re: RHW on the Regional Transport Data View!
Post by: figui on August 03, 2010, 10:42:22 AM
great work so far  :thumbsup:

looking forward for the development! this is really promising.

mauricio.
Title: Re: RHW on the Regional Transport Data View!
Post by: jondor on August 04, 2010, 01:35:57 AM
This is definitely going to require further testing.

I spent some time just playing this city.  Once I reached a population of about 10,000, with the same mod installed, the transport view started to render differently.  But only on that tile.  Other tiles render as they did before.

(http://www.thedwarfers.net/otherstuff/random/weirdness.png)

Now, on this tile, it's drawing the road and street color over top of the car volume view (which is preferable and makes things much easier), but if it's not going to be consistent, it won't be entirely useful.  We'll see what happens with further testing.
Title: Re: RHW on the Regional Transport Data View!
Post by: travismking on August 04, 2010, 01:49:54 AM
that looks even better than before :) good luck with this, will be really nice if/when it is stable
Title: Re: RHW on the Regional Transport Data View!
Post by: MattyFo on August 04, 2010, 01:52:57 AM
Well this certainly is a gret new innovation, good luck with it!  :thumbsup:

- Matt
Title: Re: RHW on the Regional Transport Data View!
Post by: citybuilderx on August 04, 2010, 05:03:13 AM
Well if this works then this entirily puts an end to "It can't be fixed. It simply isn't possible". Great job. :satisfied:

--Nick
Title: Re: RHW on the Regional Transport Data View!
Post by: Tarkus on August 04, 2010, 11:05:17 AM
I'd say even with the changes after city growth, this is still a massive improvement.  jondor, my (metaphorical) hat is off to you for the very clever work you've done in finding a possible solution! :thumbsup:

-Alex
Title: Re: RHW on the Regional Transport Data View!
Post by: JoeST on August 04, 2010, 12:01:19 PM
this is just an amazing find! thanks so very much Jondor :)

Joe
Title: Re: RHW on the Regional Transport Data View!
Post by: jondor on August 04, 2010, 12:31:09 PM
I'd say even with the changes after city growth, this is still a massive improvement.  jondor, my (metaphorical) hat is off to you for the very clever work you've done in finding a possible solution! :thumbsup:

-Alex

If it stays consistent after that point and if people can stand the slight glitch for low populated cities, this means that I can crank up the opacity on the RHW (volume data view) and not have to do color correction on the Roads, etc.  Which will make everything look better with the possible exception of diagonals.  I can still see the overlay bleeding through (although those particular diagonals are OWR separated by a tile to avoid the diagonal congestion issue.)

When I get time, I'll test it from scratch on a fresh tile and try to include more diverse network pieces.  I also have a couple of ideas after looking through the Data View exemplar properties that I'm going to try.
Title: Re: RHW on the Regional Transport Data View!
Post by: jondor on August 07, 2010, 02:53:45 AM
Upon further testing, it turns out the population thing was a coincidence.  The actual trigger is whether you open any of the data views before saving the city.

If you do, the transport data view draws the car volume view first (All car networks) and the regular transport view on top (all networks except RHW).  If you don't, it draws the regular transport view first and overlays the car volume view on top.

Since most people will probably open at least one of the data views each time they play a city, it seems best to develop this mod in that direction.  The caveat is that if you forget to, all road networks will be rendered in the same color.

What are your thoughts?

p.s. Sorry for double post
Title: Re: RHW on the Regional Transport Data View!
Post by: k808j on August 07, 2010, 11:36:59 AM
@ Jondor

There is BananaPeppers RTM on STEX. Can you use that in your research?
Title: Re: RHW on the Regional Transport Data View!
Post by: travismking on August 07, 2010, 11:46:07 AM
Upon further testing, it turns out the population thing was a coincidence.  The actual trigger is whether you open any of the data views before saving the city.

If you do, the transport data view draws the car volume view first (All car networks) and the regular transport view on top (all networks except RHW).  If you don't, it draws the regular transport view first and overlays the car volume view on top.

Since most people will probably open at least one of the data views each time they play a city, it seems best to develop this mod in that direction.  The caveat is that if you forget to, all road networks will be rendered in the same color.

What are your thoughts?

p.s. Sorry for double post
yea im pretty sure this is the best way to go, I use the traffic volume dataview almost every time i open a city and am pretty sure other people do as well. Also, it looks better this way
Title: Re: RHW on the Regional Transport Data View!
Post by: jondor on August 07, 2010, 01:49:09 PM
@ Jondor

There is BananaPeppers RTM on STEX. Can you use that in your research?

The region transport data view does support different colors for roads, one-ways and avenues.  That mod simply changes the colors of all the supported networks and has a customized legend.  But because all the NWM networks are road or one-way based, it makes more sense to leave them the same color.

My aim is to provide a mod that looks similar to the default one, but better.  Given the distinct capacities and concepts of Elevated Rail/GLR and Monorail/HSR, it makes sense to me to assign them different colors, but roads, one-ways, avenues and NWM networks all provide the same function, so it makes sense for them to be the same color. (And Avenue TuLEPs on a TLA-5 would show up as different colors and that would be visually jarring.)
Title: Re: RHW on the Regional Transport Data View!
Post by: jondor on August 10, 2010, 02:38:45 AM
Yay, double post time again.  Here are my latest development pics:

(http://www.thedwarfers.net/otherstuff/random/withdataview.png)
The highways are fully opaque and darkest black, the roads are slightly brighter than the default Maxis color, roughly a 63% gray.  The streets use the default Maxis road color, 58% gray.  Originally, streets were partially transparent, but that would not work properly with the volume data view applied.

As you can see, diagonals are the only real sticking point.  It might be possible to lessen the effect by changing the highway and road colors to be more similar to each other.  I may try this if people aren't satisfied with the diagonals as is.  Otherwise, there is just a little issue with some LTEXT files to work out and it should be ready to go.

For reference, here's the same city tile if you forget to open any of the dataviews before saving:
(http://www.thedwarfers.net/otherstuff/random/withoutdataview.png)
Fortunately easy to fix if you forget.
Title: Re: RHW on the Regional Transport Data View!
Post by: z on August 10, 2010, 02:52:41 AM
But because all the NWM networks are road or one-way based, it makes more sense to leave them the same color.

I'd suggest using a different color for one-way roads.  They have higher capacities and higher speed limits than regular roads, and in the NWM they're used only in the OWRs, where they also have higher capacities and speed limits.

Personally, I would also make avenues a separate color from the other road networks, since they're much more common than NWM, but as they're functionally similar to NWM, that's a much harder call to make.  Perhaps that could be a configurable option?
Title: Re: RHW on the Regional Transport Data View!
Post by: travismking on August 10, 2010, 03:39:04 AM
wow its looking almost perfect, although i think it would be easier to leave avenues and roads the same color, it might be BETTER to make them different colors, if not one ways at least avenues.  The one I use has avenues orange and roads and one ways white, and highways bright red.
Title: Re: RHW on the Regional Transport Data View!
Post by: jondor on August 10, 2010, 03:58:35 AM
I'd suggest using a different color for one-way roads.  They have higher capacities and higher speed limits than regular roads, and in the NWM they're used only in the OWRs, where they also have higher capacities and speed limits.

Personally, I would also make avenues a separate color from the other road networks, since they're much more common than NWM, but as they're functionally similar to NWM, that's a much harder call to make.  Perhaps that could be a configurable option?
wow its looking almost perfect, although i think it would be easier to leave avenues and roads the same color, it might be BETTER to make them different colors, if not one ways at least avenues.  The one I use has avenues orange and roads and one ways white, and highways bright red.

Conceivably, one-way roads could be a different color at present.  However, in the future with the development of TuLEPs for one-way roads, if the TuLEPs are created as road based puzzle pieces in order to support functional traffic signals, the same problem will occur with them as will at present with Avenue TuLEPs on a TLA-5 if roads and avenues are different colors.  The effect will be a mosaic of colors across your networks which will not look pleasant.  You can already see a little of this effect around the RHW interchanges where the false intersection tiles are rendered as whatever network is used to generate each specific override.  This is unfortunately unavoidable, but is less noticeable than the corresponding issue on roads would be because the main highway is much wider than the ramps.  The TuLEP pieces, however, cover the full width of the surface roads.

If I get some time tomorrow, I'll make a sample so you can see what the effect will be.  I realize everyone has their personal preferences, but I'm going for what will look the best for the majority of people.  Which in this case means that all the surface streets need to be the same color to avoid as many visual glitches and, therefore support complaints, as possible.

{EDIT}
I just tried assigning the different surface road networks to different colors and came across a very good reason to keep them all the same:  I could not get any of them to render on top of the volume data view.  There could be several reasons which I'll try to sort out later, but the results so far are not promising for proponents of multi-colored surface roads.
Title: Re: RHW on the Regional Transport Data View!
Post by: jondor on August 20, 2010, 01:18:08 AM
I think a week with no new comments warrants a double post.  After a week of dealing with real life stuff, I finally got some time to run more tests.  It turns out I couldn't get different colors to show up earlier because (for reasons I can't fathom) it did not like to overlay color codes ending in '0' (#FF0000FF for 100% opaque blue did not work, but #FF0101FF did).

Here is the result:
(http://www.thedwarfers.net/otherstuff/random/rainbow.png)
The avenues are bright green, roads blue and one-ways red.  (for reference, see above for the locations of GLR (slightly darker blue) and rail (slightly darker red))

The two main roads you can see running through downtown are actually TLA-5s that have had Avenue TuLEPs plopped on them.  These are pretty short blocks, so the mosaic effect is minimized, but it is still noticeable on the north-south road.  It will only get worse if road-based one-way (or RHW) TuLEPs are eventually created to get around the problem of non-functional signals on these networks.

In my opinion, the basic function of roads, one-ways, avenues and the NWM networks is the same; they are all surface streets with various numbers of lanes running in various directions.  For public release, this mod is going to use the same color for all three networks.  Customizing these colors is pretty trivial for anyone who is familiar with iLive's reader, so anyone who wants to do so, can.

That being the case, the only thing I may need to finish this mod is a unique IID for an LTEXT file.  For now, I've borrowed the LTEXT file that is used for the hover query over Monorail tiles.  But if it is modified by any other mod, it will affect the legend in this mod.  If I use a unique LTEXT, I'd like to collect translations for 'Monorail' in as many languages as possible before it is released.

If anyone in the know about these last two issues (a non-conflicting LTEXT IID or the feasibility of using the hover query LTEXT) can get back to me, it will expedite the release of this mod. Thanks! :)
Title: Re: RHW on the Regional Transport Data View!
Post by: RickD on August 20, 2010, 02:41:13 AM
Great work Jondor. Amazing that such big discoveries are still being made.
Title: Re: RHW on the Regional Transport Data View!
Post by: Andreas on August 20, 2010, 04:44:36 AM
Interesting work indeed! I'd say you shouldn't use an existing LTEXT file, but create a new one with a unique ID for your new label. For looking up the "Monorail" label in other languages, you could open the different Locale files and search for the ID of that LTEXT file with the Monorail hover query (in case you have a SimCity version that offers several languages).
Title: Re: RHW on the Regional Transport Data View!
Post by: Paul 999 on August 20, 2010, 05:55:45 AM
I don't like the colors. I think that a red color for highways and a gray color for other roads good enough be.
Title: Re: RHW on the Regional Transport Data View!
Post by: jondor on August 20, 2010, 12:41:18 PM
I can tell already that the issue of the network colors is going to be hotly contested.  I realize bright red is traditional for highways on most maps.  However, I am limited by the functionality of this workaround and the aesthetics of the unavoidable visual glitches I cannot get rid of.

I originally chose black for the highways because it made color correcting much simpler (see the last image of my first post).  Once I made more discoveries, I stuck with black because the visual glitches are less noticeable that way.  If the highways are red, diagonal roads and streets will also show up with red halos (I have to be to work soon, but I'll create a sample image this evening so you can see).

Minimizing the number of support requests over these glitches is my primary goal since the glitches themselves cannot be fixed.  The colors I've chosen do that in my opinion.

EDIT:
(http://www.thedwarfers.net/otherstuff/random/red_highway.png)
I swapped the highways back to red and rail back to black.  You can see that all of the diagonal surface road networks have red halos, including the streets.  Compare to the black highways above (http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=11430.msg338996#msg338996).  The diagonals are still visible, but less noticeable.
Title: Re: RHW on the Regional Transport Data View!
Post by: travismking on August 25, 2010, 07:44:20 AM
im really hoping you can work out these bugs and release this to us :D Cant wait :)
Title: Re: RHW on the Regional Transport Data View!
Post by: jondor on August 25, 2010, 11:45:11 AM
As usual, the bugs are the result of the game itself and we'll just have to live with them.

All I need now is time (which I have very little of for the next several weeks, unfortunately) and a few more translations (http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=11557.0) (wink wink nudge nudge)
Title: Re: RHW on the Regional Transport Data View!
Post by: jondor on September 11, 2010, 09:16:36 PM
Sorry to let this stagnate, it's been a busy few weeks.

I've finally had time to add all the translations that have been submitted in the other thread.  And as soon as I get a readme file written, I'll be able to package it up and release it into the wild.  No guarantees on a time frame, but I will try to get it done as soon as possible!
Title: Re: RHW on the Regional Transport Data View!
Post by: travismking on September 12, 2010, 12:16:58 AM
awesome, i cant wait
Title: Re: RHW on the Regional Transport Data View!
Post by: yunxiang on September 13, 2010, 06:41:28 PM
Hi jondor, this looks really amazing! I too cannot wait for this to be released. I have one request though, if you're willing:

Tropod a very long time ago released a transportation map modd which, in addition to separating monorail from el-rail and avenue from roads, also displayed the RCI zones on the transportation map. It is located at this link on the STEX (http://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=21313). There's also one by theJerseyDevil Here (http://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=11402) that does the same thing (but clearer).
I find the ability to see the RCI zones very useful in planning out my regions, and am wondering if you be willing to include this functionality in your mod at some point.
Title: Re: RHW on the Regional Transport Data View!
Post by: jondor on September 13, 2010, 07:06:44 PM
Hi jondor, this looks really amazing! I too cannot wait for this to be released. I have one request though, if you're willing:

Tropod a very long time ago released a transportation map modd which, in addition to separating monorail from el-rail and avenue from roads, also displayed the RCI zones on the transportation map. It is located at this link on the STEX (http://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=21313). There's also one by theJerseyDevil Here (http://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=11402) that does the same thing (but clearer).
I find the ability to see the RCI zones very useful in planning out my regions, and am wondering if you be willing to include this functionality in your mod at some point.

I took a look at that mod and it may be possible to integrate them.  I will have to test it first, and get permission of course, if the test is successful.
Title: Re: RHW on the Regional Transport Data View!
Post by: travismking on September 13, 2010, 07:59:30 PM
i use edmonton's transit map, is great and shows zones, but this one will definitly have to overwrite it when its released cuz being able to see RHW is pretty awesome
Title: Re: RHW on the Regional Transport Data View!
Post by: editfish on September 14, 2010, 08:20:11 AM
This is exciting.  I've been bothered by this issue for a long time and encouraged to see that you've got a reasonable workaround.   &apls  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: RHW on the Regional Transport Data View!
Post by: dyoungyn on September 14, 2010, 11:00:33 AM
I agree 110%  &hlp  I have been avoiding to use RHW for this very reason that I cannot see it in the region view.   This is great news to know taht someone has finally cracked the code and we will be able to see RHW.  I really want to use to make all these AWESOME &apls  interchanges, but again hesitant.

dyoungyn
Title: Re: RHW on the Regional Transport Data View!
Post by: samerton on September 14, 2010, 11:11:08 AM
This is brilliant..! Can't wait!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: RHW on the Regional Transport Data View!
Post by: jondor on October 02, 2010, 05:37:31 PM
Okay guys!  It's been a while and work has been tough, but it's finally here!

http://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=24992 (http://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=24992)

Enjoy! :)
Title: Re: RHW Regional Transport Map support thread
Post by: figui on October 02, 2010, 06:27:53 PM
just downloaded, trying it immediately  :thumbsup:

mauricio.
Title: Re: RHW Regional Transport Map support thread
Post by: jondor on October 02, 2010, 09:59:57 PM
Let me know how it turns out.  :thumbsup:

(And anyone else too.)
Title: Re: RHW Regional Transport Map support thread
Post by: figui on October 02, 2010, 10:03:21 PM
it's awesome! thank you.

just a question: is it possible to add a "parks" or "green area" label in the legend?
i really like the way it is now, by the way..

mauricio.
Title: Re: RHW Regional Transport Map support thread
Post by: jondor on October 02, 2010, 10:16:59 PM
Aside from needing to collect translations, it would be relatively trivial.  A small edit of the png background of the legend and add another line of text.
Title: Re: RHW Regional Transport Map support thread
Post by: figui on October 03, 2010, 09:25:34 AM
ok, and now it turns into just a suggestion.. (as i'm not skilled enough to edit this kind of things)  ::)

mauricio.
Title: Re: RHW Regional Transport Map support thread
Post by: samerton on October 04, 2010, 10:09:04 AM
It's brilliant! Great work!  &apls &apls &apls
Title: Re: RHW Regional Transport Map support thread
Post by: travismking on October 04, 2010, 10:20:46 AM
OMG you are awesome
Title: Re: RHW Regional Transport Map support thread
Post by: TiFlo on October 05, 2010, 07:30:04 AM
This is fantastic! Thanks a lot for your work on this  &apls
Title: Re: RHW Regional Transport Map support thread
Post by: Paul 999 on October 08, 2010, 01:07:15 PM
I use this mod in my MD now, and it looks great thank you!  :)

http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=10855.120
Title: Re: RHW Regional Transport Map support thread
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on October 29, 2010, 08:38:43 AM
that's one purrrdy-looking mod.
Especially like the working display of the transport networks.
It's a bit of shame though that it also doesn't display zoning.
but one can't have all i suppose.

in any cse: top notch work.  &apls
Title: Re: RHW on the Regional Transport Data View!
Post by: natespf on November 03, 2014, 09:39:52 AM
Upon further testing, it turns out the population thing was a coincidence.  The actual trigger is whether you open any of the data views before saving the city.

If you do, the transport data view draws the car volume view first (All car networks) and the regular transport view on top (all networks except RHW).  If you don't, it draws the regular transport view first and overlays the car volume view on top.

Since most people will probably open at least one of the data views each time they play a city, it seems best to develop this mod in that direction.  The caveat is that if you forget to, all road networks will be rendered in the same color.

What are your thoughts?

p.s. Sorry for double post

Wow, that's all it is.  I have been trying to figure this out for a while, was thinking it was something I was doing wrong maybe with the starter pieces or something.  Each time I thought I figured it out it would come back again  :'(

I love this mod and it is quite helpful with city planning.  Now I have been making sure to check the Data Views each time and works like a charm   ;D

I know the mod was made a long time ago and this is an old thread.  But if I had a vote I would want the Road, AVE, One-way, and NWM all to be one color, and the Street to be a different color or fainter shade.  The diagonal glitch does not bother me so much.  Anyway great mod, much appreciated  :thumbsup: