mrb's Challenge 1

[mrbisonm]

Finally, here's my version of the Challenge 1. I made it before you even knew what the mission was.
Based on my experience of what I have seen in this world, I created the rails first, which is likely what happened to more than half of all the rails anyways through a wilderness like this. I picked the shortest way from any tile to any tile, but crossing over 6 citytiles as was demanded. I knew that I could add more rails anywhere I wanted to later on, so I only picked the lower citytiles for the Challenge, barely touching some tiles and making the whole route as short and practical as possible.
My harbour will be in tile E near the little river inlet and I figured to have at least the mainline going through there.

oK, the road is a different story because it had to start in tile A and end in tile M (or vice versa). I started beside the riverentrance on the far northwest end of tile A, as if the road came down following the smaller river to finally end up meeting the large river (Grand river), then following its path alongside being close and getting farther from the water here and there, as in real life.
The river crossing is done in tile F, which seemed to me the most logical tile location to build a bridge. It is narrow and close to tile M and fairly close to the sea. Therefore less costing and practical.
Finally the road runs southward to meet the rails and on and off with the rails they share the region for awhile. Often you see that in real life too. Because of the little lake in tile I the road was build close to it, probably because an access to a lake is always interesting to have in your municipality for higher taxes and also tourism.
Then it finally crosses the border over to the tile M and ends up connected to the neighboring region only a few steps away from the border.


Now I would like you all to read the Pointage sheet, especially the way the points are meant to be, and judge my version of this Challenge.
Please do your best in judging and do not exempt me from any harsh and honest judgment. I want you to be as honest as one can get. Tell me what you think and where I stand and that's it.
I can take all and besides I will not win this challenge even if I get the most points, I am not allowed to win, ok? I play this for the fun of it.
So go ahead and give me the points I earned. Follow the directions how to judge below and see the points in the Pointage sheet.
Points will be added and then divided by the numbers of players that had given their version of points, giving us the average of the total.

Here is how to judge and what to judge.

1.  First set of Points (0to5) are given for the most logical way to have build the road through the region, the shortest and less expensive as any mayor would considering any futur projects that these tiles can offer.
2. The second set of Points (0to5) are the same for the rails.

Everyone will have a different opinion and this I want to see.
Do not judge the pictures itself, nor the trees and plants that I have plopped etc, nor the photoshopping, nor the terrain, water and rockmod and not the way the Challenge 1 is presented in my thread. I haven't judged yours. Concentrate on the 2 things that are in the Challenge and nothing else.

Bonus point are given for an excellent explanation why things were built in that way in this Challenge, but if you ask me, I would not give myself a Bonus point for that explanation, since it is not *extraordinary* enough.

So as an example if you give me a 2 (from 0to5) for the roads and a 3 (from 0to5) for the rails, the points for this challenge would be a total of 5.

lol....now is the time to revenge yourself....lol


The *My Judging is open to everyone, players, lurkers, visitors etc. It would be nice to hear your version of good mayoring.

You can find more details to judge here:
http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=7278.80

Fred







see ya all soon.

[MandelSoft]

NOTE: This reply is edited. Italic = edited text
Roads - 3 pts. It looks like there are some sharp turns (which I don't like)Still a sharp turn visible at the east side of the northern bridge., but the choice of the positions of the bridges is good.
Rails - 3 pts. At some places, it makes a small detour, and I see some sharp turns, and the starting point is to my opinion not a quite challenging choice to start. But the rail crosses the river on a logical point. Oh, and where is the rail on the detail picture? I can't see it!Bridge shown in the picture at reply 18.

Total: 6 pts.
Best,
Maarten

[wouanagaine]

Ok so I'll try first Maarten did it first

Things I like :
Tile E and A, the road following the riverbed
Tile I, nice detour of the hills,
Tile I, like the road and rail laid side by side


Things I don't like
Tile A, why you choose to put the bridge orthogonal to the road general direction ?
Tile I, why the road goes to the lake instead of being straight like the rail
Tile E, you choose to build a bridge in the almost large part of that river ( yeah I'm nitpicking here )

It looks like the upper nation have no access to rail

So I give you 8 ( 4+4 ) points, as it is a really nice job and perfection is hard to achieve

[threestooges]

Not knowing much about the expenses entailed in bridge construction (I thought short spans were cheaper, but then I would imagine a fair bit goes into the footings) I'll go with your approach and compliment you on the single span across the main river. I share the same question as Wou... mainly why the bridge top-left crosses at the angle it does. It seems that a shorter span could have been made by following the shore and crossing in a north-south angle (though that may just look that way from the pic). Minimal slopes, nice, scenic drive, though curving it by the lake in the southeast  seems a bit on the side of luxury if cost it to be considered... no slope on the rail that I can see which is great, and few curves too. I think a 4 is in order for the rail system. There's no indication why it would bend up toward the river if it was just passing through (though I can imagine it's for something planned down the road) and a strong 3 for the road. I would be tempted to give it a 4 though. Well done.

Road: 3
Rail:   4
Total: 7

[tooheys]

I'd like to see a close up of tile.... only kidding   

Ok, well the road layout is logical enough. Only two bridges and it follows the water nicely. It may have been a little shorter in length (tile A) but overall I'll give that a 4.

The rail layout is reasonably direct as you'd expect. Only the one bridge so more $$$ saved. But the tile pic doesn't show the rail. That I consider a negative, so 3 for the rail.

All up 7

Dave

[cameron1991]

Time for revenge! *laughs maniacally*  

Roads - 3 points. I like how the road is fairly direct from Tiles A to M, but I don't like how the bridge in Tile A heads East and then doubles back to follow the shoreline which is a bit curvy and would cause vehicles to take the section slower than a relatively straight road with only a few wide corners.

Rail - 3 points. I like the general directness as it crosses the region and would have given you a 4 for this, but the rail line isn't seen in the Tile E picture, which I'm guessing was taken before you built the line through there?

Road: 3
Rail:   3
Total: 6

[mightygoose]

things i like: only 3 bridges in the region
things i dont like: five tiles in the region remained unserviced.

for road a 4 is definately deserved.

however a 2 for rail for lack of service coverage in the northern half of the region.

and a bonus point opening yourself up to public scrutiny....

7

[soulchaser]

As you want a fair judgement: here I go

What I don't like:

Roads:

A. 2 sharp turns at the bridge: Seems like someone planned the bridge first and then tried to fit the roads to it.
B. This spot is a bad choice for a bridge in my eyes. As the riverbed narrows a lot and doesn't get much deeper. So there are higher forces at the base.
C. If the road goes straight, there would be a gap of about 500 - 1000 meters  between the lake and the road. So there's no necessity to go that near.

Rail:

D. If the coastline goes on like it seems to, this railway will go to close to the coast. For a main route, this is to dangerous.

What I like:

Roads:

E. I like how your road follows the riverside. seems to be a real scenic way.

Rail:

I like the whole layout concidering the northern bow is just because of the 6-tiles roule.

For the points: Road/Rail = 3/4 (7)

Gute Arbeit

[Ennedi]

I'm not a GRV II challenger, but you said judging your work is open to everybody, so...

1. Roads: The general layout is logical and economical (positive points), but there are also a few things which could be done better:
- The bridge in tile A. My feelings about it are both positive and negative. It looks very nice, but from the RL point of view it causes traffic difficulties, and it could be built in another way as Wou and Threestoges said.
- The road in tile F is built very good if we look only at this tile. But if it would go more to the East, future local roads to tiles C, K and L would be shorter and it means less transport costs from the region point of view.
- There is a short stretch of the main road in tile M, but this city hasn't any benfits of it. An access to the main road from almost the whole city will be easier through local roads crossing the I/M border more to the North than through this piece of the main road in the Sothwest corner of tile M.

2. Rails: Generally - logical, economical and without excessive costs  . It is hard to say if the railway goes through tile D or G, but both tiles have an esay access to it.
The Southeast part of tile is serviced very good by both railway and main road, this area is a good candidate for the main industrial area.
What could be improved?
- Mightygoose is right saying about lack of service in some cities and lack of rail access to the North part of the region. It could be greatly improved if you would provide two rail/road crossings: one in tile I (as it is), and the second one in tile A or B. In that case both passengers and freight could be transported both by rail and trucks and much bigger part of the region would have an access to main networks (= easier and faster transport)

The score: Roads 3, rail 4, total 7.

I have also a few other things to say. Please take these thoughts as an another point of view (outside of the Competition  ), maybe they can be interesting for somebody.

a) Following the seashore: Roads and rails winding along the seashore (or riverside) are usually scenic, they look great both in SC4 and in RL. But if we will look at RL engineering solutions we will see that main roads following the seashore are used rather rarely, only if it is necessary. There are several reasons:
- Such road is expensive! it needs many curves, levelling the terrain and usually reinforcing the slope on the seashore side. The only reasonable use of winding main road in this Challenge is on Wou's map (tile B), it is also the most realistic.
- we should have an easy access to the main road from as much places as possible. So it is good to have it going across the center of an area.
It is hard to me to choose a good example from North America, but we have a perfect example in Europe. This is E80, a main road (mostly highway) leading from Turkey along the Northern seashore of the Mediterranean Sea, with the end in Barcelona (but it goes to Gibraltar under another name). If you would look at this road in Google Earth (especially Italian and French part from Genova to Riviera), you would see that it goes a few kilometers from the seashore. It gives a perfect access to bigger cities centres, and local roads goes down and up to smaller towns and villages. All of these local roads are winding and very scenic  
b) Looking at E80 highway we can also see another important thing which you said about: much longer road following isoclines or viaducts and tunnels?. For highway, definitely viaducts nad tunnels, especially in difficult terrain. There are large parts of E80 consisting only ofviaducts and tunnels. There are also curves in tunnels. I have a strange feeling driving this road from thwe West, near an exit to Monte Carlo. The curve begins exactly at the tunnel entrance. I saw a lot of black tireskids on the road surface, quite many of them ended on the tunnel wall  .
The viaduct can be 10 times more expensive than a highway of the same length. the tunnel can be even more expensive. But they save a lot of space and road distance.
However, you are probably right judging the Bordertown, hills are small and it's easy to avoid them  
c) Bridges in tile E: Yes, you are right about costs. But I think I understand why so many competitors made bridges there. It is probably the most interesting part of the region. If somebody is planning a city in this tile, he will have to build bridges here. So it is more economical to make it on the main road (it gives an access to it from all parts of the city) than make it later using local roads.
After all, every player has a vision in his/her mind (where to build cities, where will be industrial, residential, touristic and other areas, where are neighbouring cities outside of the region). It is very hard to judge it.
So I will make another use of my "outsider" position  : I give you a very well deserved Karma point for the perfect maintenance of this competition, honest and thoughtful judging
(at least nobody will say I'm trying to improve my score  )

Adam

[jmyers2043]

Roads - perfect in every way - 5

Rails - perfect again - 5

Bonus points awarded for being perfect - 2

Total Score = 12 (says Jim who is trying to grease the wheels until they can be greased no more) 

[Rayden]

Roads - perfect in every way - 5

Rails - perfect again - 5

Bonus points awarded for being perfect - 2

Total Score = 12 (says Jim who is trying to grease the wheels until they can be greased no more) 

I think Pat is changing your CML right now, to BSC Greasyboy 

[mrbisonm]

Thanks for all the comments, many which are very logical and defined.
Just to have it understood clearly in this challenge. We asked for a road through the region and not a road to access all the tiles (maximum was 6 anyways).
Ennedi, very good and logical explanation, thanks.
I will not take jmyers2043's points in consideration.....lol...no grease here...

In the regionmap there seems to be several sharp curves, but I think NAM extended curves don't show up as they are in regionview, do they? Because I have built them both for rails and road.

I can see now that I could have easily done it better, but I am not a mayor either and enjoying the challenges and judgements. Thank you all for being frank.

Fred

[Splime]

So, my points:

The Rail gets a 4, since its straight and cheap, with only one small bridge. Boring, perhaps, but it gets the job done. Could also be useful for establishing the difference between both sides of the river.

The Road gets a 4 as well. I'm not a huge fan of the bridge in Tile A that has a really sharp turn, but otherwise an efficient route. (Though I would have liked to see some FAR...  )

Total: 8

[quackmofro]

Okay, I guess I'll judge the judge.

You made a strong point about the bridges, tunnels and mountain construction in mitigating costs. I forgot, especially as a process engineer, that one of the most important considerations to make in any design is reducing capital. So with that having been said, I'll review your work.

The road is very good. It follows the curvature of the river and allows for some ample development along the river's edge. I like that.

The sharp curves in and out of the northernmost bridge are probably the biggest fault. You could've just as easily traversed the water north-to-south. The bridge across the Grand River is placed perfectly, though.

The road follows the hill around to the lake, which is fine. I can see some development in between it and the rail here later in the future.

As for the rail, it takes a very direct path, which from my observation is what most rail lines do in real life. Also, I keep in mind that if this is a main rail line, then most of your developments will
be south of the border. I can imagine a secondary line running through the north and meeting up with the main later. So no problem there.

If we are judging the pictures as well, then there is a problem with your tile E picture as the rail line through it is missing.

So then:

Road: 4
Rail: 4

8 points total for our governor. Well done!

[Diggis]

Right, I'll make my comments...

The bridge in tile A seems to be in a bad location, the 2 sharp corners at either end make for a dangerous entry to the bridge.  I do like the way the road follows the river, and will take your word on it being done with the FAR and wide curves.  The detour in Tile I to the small lake seems very unnecessary. 

The rail seems pretty straight forward, although there is not rail service to the northern side of the river.  There seems to be a weird kink between D and E, but I take this to be a due to the neighbour connection, otherwise it seems unecessary.  The bridge crossing is in a good location although it appears to be missing from your Mayor Mode image... Could you repost that image with the rail line please. 

All in all I give 3 for the road and 3 for the Rail so a 6.

[TheTeaCat]

"We hope that you have thought it carefully over enough. Imagine the embarrassment later to ask us for permissions for this and that? Wink
Now that you posted your pictures, you are not allowed to change anything anymore. We made copies and judge the originals only.

You can start playing and build whatever you want in either tile B,E or H, but only in one of them."

So sorry but I couldn't resist 

Time for my cuppa's worth.

Rail : Good start on the left of the region but it seems to me to get a bit too close to the coastline on the right of the region. Without seeing the next part of the line there it seems to me that going south in tile m would have been the better choice. Other than that all seem to be fine, just the one bridge

Road: Again a very good choice of route but just have two bits that seem wrong. the bridge in tile a as other have said and why it turns towards the lake so abruptly, when it could have easily gone straight on. (unless its for future plans  )

Road :4
Rail   :4

Total :8

Well done Guv'ner.
Hope your looking forward to challenge 2

[mrbisonm]

"We hope that you have thought it carefully over enough. Imagine the embarrassment later to ask us for permissions for this and that? Wink
Now that you posted your pictures, you are not allowed to change anything anymore. We made copies and judge the originals only.

You can start playing and build whatever you want in either tile B,E or H, but only in one of them."

So sorry but I couldn't resist 

LOL.....That was funny. Thanks. I could just see you rubbing both hands while writing this with an extra large smile, right?

I will repost the picture with the missing rails, wonder what happened, maybe I took the picture before building the rail.....hm.....gotta watch myself. I will also get a picture with that bridge that no one seems to like....lol. It looks nice in mayormode than in regionview. But I know.....darn....I mad a mistake there....can't be perfect neither.
Now it's suppertime, see you after.

Fred

[Rayden]

Well, judging it's a lot harder than playing/building the game, specially when we don't know exactlythe reasons the other person had to do things that way, so, I will have to judge based on the challenge guidelines and my own view of the game vs RL, and not based on budget like you did with all of us. I think it's only fair, as you did know about it, and we didn't. Of course, it could be said that we should have looked through all angles and come to that conclusion, and I believe some of us did it in part, I know I did when concerning to choose the place to build the bridges, and even thought of using the Tsing Ma Bridge on tile A to join both rail and road in one bridge only, but then, I forgot. Anyway like others said as well, perhaps if we knew about that budget issue, the fun of seeing how people would do it wouldn't be that much, and maybe a bit dull, as everyone would look for the shortest/chepeast way, and in the end, most of the final approahes would look very similar.
But, let's judge your work, based on my own opinion. I concur with some others when you could have avoid that change of direction when you built the bridge on tile A. Another point is, as I and many others believe this road it's going to be the main "artery" of the region, and should be upgraded in the future. Based on that, it doesn't make much sense use it as a scenic road, and the best path would be always to placed it away from places like the river banks, and keep that places for scenic roads, town/cities development or other like. The other river crossing it's logical, I thought as well about that place, but my plans are other, so I have cross the river a little further to the east, even if I had to use another bridge to cross that small river to the south, but then again, that was my intention based on the plans I have for my region, which of course you couldn't know about it. I'm not going to judge that change of direction by the little lake, when you just could have followed the rail line, which would be the logical one, just because I don't know your plans.
Now to the rail, there's not much to point as you explained that you placed it that way to take advantage of the future harbour on tile E you were thinking of, there is not many bends as it would be normal on a mostly flat terrain, but that last bend before entering tile M  

For the points, I first thought not giving points (I hate to quantify other's work by giving points) and only giving my point of view, but I don't want you to think I'm giving you 0, because it wouldn't be right.

For the roads, based on what I've pointed above I cannot give you more than a 3, and for the rail I give a 4 (3,5 for that little bend before entering tile M ) = 7, but I have to take away one point for that "little advantage" you had upon us, knowing about the budget  

Final Score = 6

PS: Sorry if you guys bored to death after this long testament. I usually don't write that much, but I got carried away.

[mrbisonm]

Thanks Rayden, your statement was quite logical. Appreciated.


Here's a close up of the little bridge in tile A as asked for and below a picture of the E Tile with the rails, sorry about the blackspot, but there are parts for challenge 2 and challenge 3.






mrb

[Rayden]

You were right, it looks better than in region view, but, I still think that if you'd follow the same direction by carryeing the road a bit further to the right, you could had cross the river without that strange "S"

I can't wait to see Challenge 2. But right now I'm off to bed, I'll see it in the morning