NWM (Network Widening Mod) - Development and Support

[Tarkus]

I was editing some OWR-2 textures for the end pieces and wondered what they'd look like if I plopped one of the NWM OWR transitions. Turns out that if I plopped the OWR-2 to OWR-3 piece,... The paths disappear... 

Actually, that's a symptom of plopping the OWR-2-to-OWR-3 or OWR-1-to-OWR-2 transitions with the arrows in one direction, and then trying to switch the directionality.  It has to do with the OneWayDir command on the RULs and is a quirk of some OneWayRoad-based puzzle pieces.  (In fact, OneWayDir quirks are basically the entire reason we have a separate LHD NAM Controller.)

(Though I'm also seeing some extra arrows on the networks... I'm guessing it's what gives these kinds of networks the extra capacity...)

Yes, that's it exactly.  The stairstepping came as a result of trying to stick those extra arrows underground so they weren't visible.

Why can't those kinds of pieces be starterless like their OWR-4 and OWR-5 counterparts (Like the piece I plopped to the left of the problematic piece)?

It is interesting that the OWR-3-to-5 isn't suffering from the issue--several Maxis Highway interchange pieces involving OWRs with a similar stub setup to what's on that particular transition do suffer from the same issue as the OWR-2-to-3 and 1-to-2 transitions.  It appears some experimentation may be in order.  

Thanks for bringing it to my attention!

-Alex

Edit: Commenting out the OneWayDir command on the OWR-2-to-3 transition (while still leaving the OWR-3 starter stub on the end) seems to have allowed it to function like the OWR-3-to-5 transition.

[Yuyu]

Hello there, glorious NAM-Team!

I'm actually feeling bad to bother you with these questions and, especially, these requests, I really am!

But it's bothering me for quite a while now and I thought I just might give it a shot. It's not just NWM, but mostly and since there seems to be no "General NAM"-Thread, I'll try here. Usually, I'd write a novel about something like this, but instead, I give you an

Essay... in pictures...

It goes like this: Why is left side like it is, while at the same time there is right side.




(OWR1/MIS: I mean the sharp/smooth curve... the base-texture thing would be similar to the first picture)



As for the requests: Of course there's the usual stuff (especially NWM- and TuLEP-wise), but I haven't seen these here yet:



1. transitions from road and ASR to medianless avenue
2. one-sided transitions
3. should be obvious
4. a smooth transition from medianless avenue to diagonal avenue



5. smooth connection between parallel railroads, just like on the left (the upper one as comparison)

That's it from my side... Thanks already for all that outstanding work... and I'm not even exaggerating... 

Sincerely
Yuyu

[j-dub]

Hello Yuyu, welcome to SC4D. Here is one of my reasons, the RHW can not support zone growth, where as NWM can, also RHW is supposed to be a bigger scaled network. Furthering that, take the OWR-1 90 degree curve, versus the RHW ramp 90 degree curve, ideally the OWR-1 curve would be in a populated part of the city where buildings may be on it, so you may be expected to stop, or turn at 5mph, where as the RHW ramp would allow for maybe 15mph. Anyway, I get what your saying about placing zones on parts of the RHW, where other parts can not
fit them, but in this situation, RHW is not going to be able to handle most zoning next to it anyway. As for the TLA-3 S curve, versus the roadway Scurve, versus the space allowed on the TLA-3 to Avenue transition, I am sure Alex has an explanation for that.

Yes we are still lacking on vital transitions for the NWM, but for all you know, Alex may know about it, or have some stuff in the works not yet visible, because after all, the NWM is still young. The RHW on the other hand, has been around for a number of more years and has gone through improvements. That is why, the shoulder on the RHW over hangs those zones, initially a previous version of the RHW, you were required to draw the shoulder and take those tiles up, but that is an example of how stuff can/does get improved over the years, however what gets improved is the creator's decision.

As for railroads, Alex is not working on those as far as I know, you may have to talk to the RAM (railway addon mod) team about that.

since there seems to be no "General NAM"-Thread, I'll try here

There is a NAM issues thread on this web site, but since you had some valid concerns regarding the NWM, it was probably better you came here to address that.

[Tarkus]

Additionally, puzzle pieces generally don't support wealth-level textures . . . the reason being that the IID scheme they have to use conflicts with wealthing and can result in some weird visuals when those pieces are placed near zones.

The further NWM transitions are on the long-term list, and will probably be added gradually over time.  The ones I can report on right now are the MAVE-4-to-6 split transition (designed for asymmetrical MAVE setups), and two for triple-tile networks: AVE-4-to-6 and TLA-7-to-AVE-6.

Right now, the main points of focus in terms of NWM development are the following:
-implementing triple-tile networking, beginning with the TLA-7 and AVE-6
-improving and expanding existing network functionality, with an emphasis on diagonals

Other long-term goals:
-More transitions
-Additional TuLEPs functionality, including "signal intersection pieces" (SIPs? ) for NWM OWR-based networks.
-NMAVE-4
-Asymmetrical multi-tile networks
-Fractional angle functionality

May as well post a development pic while I'm at it . . .



-Alex

[GDO29Anagram]

SIPs, Tarkus? That'd be a great idea. Maybe the addition of filler pieces would also do some good; I mean, there are FPs for RHW, why not for NWM? (Last time I addressed this, someone said that the Neighbor connection piece would work just as well, but what I had in mind were FPs for single-tile networks and especially for OWR-based networks; I can show one practical application...)

I'm just wondering how a diagonal-diagonal OWR-4 or OWR-5 crossing would work; I thought about it myself and the only way it'd work is through the SIPs that you mentioned... (One step at a time, I guess...) (OWRs, or whatever code in the game runs them, can't tell what direction they're going and therefore traffic lights may be facing the wrong way... I figured that out through a lot of research... And actual trial and error... iGuess that's why rail crossings with OWR-2 have gates on both sides, even though it's one-way... SIPs would finally solve that problem; Would rail crossing SIPs for OWR networks be implemented as well?)

I'm also thinking that the ultimate nightmare is diagonalising the AVE-6 and TLA-7 and intersectionising that monster, especially at diagonals... (One step at a time, tackle ortho crossings for now...)

Going too far ahead, aren't I...? 

Additionally, puzzle pieces generally don't support wealth-level textures . . . the reason being that the IID scheme they have to use conflicts with wealthing and can result in some weird visuals when those pieces are placed near zones.

Is this the same reason that things like S-curves don't have sidewalk textures? By default, they lack sidewalks, even with zones implemented. (A texture modification would be an easy solution... Remember Sithlrd98's textures for all the WRCs and FARs?) Even if it isn't the reason, there's also that one square that comes with the starter piece that fails to show a sidewalk texture.

Then,... How did you guys get grass/sidewalk textures for the transition pieces...? 

Anyway,...

Oh wait,... It's a CDS texture... (iWonder where that came from... )

- GDO29Anagram

[Nego]

A CDS texture? What's that? I may know quite a few thinks about SC4 Modding, but I have no idea what that is...

PS. It seemes like your[Tarkus's & superhands's] texture mod is progressing quite well. You and Superhands should keep up the good work!

[Tarkus]

SIPs, Tarkus? That'd be a great idea. Maybe the addition of filler pieces would also do some good; I mean, there are FPs for RHW, why not for NWM? (Last time I addressed this, someone said that the Neighbor connection piece would work just as well, but what I had in mind were FPs for single-tile networks and especially for OWR-based networks; I can show one practical application...)

I concur fully on adding fillers.  I'll fast-track it on the list of features for the next version.  Using the Neighbor pieces for those purposes will lead to some . . . odd results in some instances.  

I'm just wondering how a diagonal-diagonal OWR-4 or OWR-5 crossing would work; I thought about it myself and the only way it'd work is through the SIPs that you mentioned... (One step at a time, I guess...)

It'll probably be kinda messy.  Fortunately, I've been getting a lot more comfortable with diagonal stuff as of late, but that one will still be kind of a doozy.

(OWRs, or whatever code in the game runs them, can't tell what direction they're going and therefore traffic lights may be facing the wrong way... I figured that out through a lot of research... And actual trial and error... iGuess that's why rail crossings with OWR-2 have gates on both sides, even though it's one-way... SIPs would finally solve that problem; Would rail crossing SIPs for OWR networks be implemented as well?)

Exactly right on the OWR mechanics there . . . it's an .exe-locked thing, too.  I hadn't thought about Rail crossing SIPs, but that sounds like a fine idea.

I'm also thinking that the ultimate nightmare is diagonalising the AVE-6 and TLA-7 and intersectionising that monster, especially at diagonals... (One step at a time, tackle ortho crossings for now...)

Going too far ahead, aren't I...? 

Hey, I'm already thinking about NWM Version 3 and RHW 6.0 . . . and we're not even to NWM Version 2 or RHW 4.2 yet.  

Then,... How did you guys get grass/sidewalk textures for the transition pieces...? 

Hence why I stuck in the "generally" part--my favorite "hedging word".  If a piece is small enough and situated in the right manner, it can be possible to provide limited sidewalking support on them.  It tends to be idiosyncratic still in those cases, however, as evidenced by the graphical issues a few users have run into with those pieces.

-Alex

[metarvo]

I like how the diagonal-orthogonal intersections are coming, Alex.  Fractional-angle NWM and SIPs sound like they would be good additions, too.  I've always thought the Maxis OWRs seemed just a little weak, mainly because of the traffic lights.  So, I'm guessing the SIPs would basically be TULEPs without the turning lanes.  Am I right?

[j-dub]

iGuess that's why rail crossings with OWR-2 have gates on both sides, even though it's one-way... SIPs would finally solve that problem; Would rail crossing SIPs for OWR networks be implemented as well?)

Then I must live in the game, because too many places I drive through, the OWR's are like that, just before I think I have a way across, it turns out there are do not enter signs, and I am not suppose to drive that direction, after watching the gates finally rise up. I don't know why bother put gates on each side of the track in that case then, same goes for draw bridges, not that we will see those in this game again, anytime soon.

Metarvo, if road x OWR-2 and OWRxOWR existed, would you still think it was weak after?

[Blue Lightning]

Is that the avenue connection trick that was used for a temporary RHW connection?

[Yuyu]

Well, Thanks for those answers!

...but I will clarify a few things you (mostly) didn't get the way I meant you to (which was bound to happen with pictures only...)

1.)
The first pic wasn't meant to point out the difference between the two s-curve-pieces - I'm asking, why there are puzzle pieces coming up (like the transition on the right), that support base-textures/sidewalks, while it doesn't seem to be possible for smooth curves etc. ...
I read your post on this... but I didn't get your answer... at all to be honest 

2.)
In the top of the second pic, I was wondering, why I am getting that sidewalk-texture on my RHW3, while before (last version) I had the same grass-texture as the MIS - which fits a lot better for RHW of course

3.)
You already answered the questions on the two other things of the second pic... just wanted to add that the broader-than-necessary(-now) RHW-transition doesn't bug me when zoning, but mostly when terraforming, and that I didn't want the same smooth curve for OWR1 as the MIS, just a slightly smoother curve than there is (but thats just me of course... I'm using them anyway  )

4.) (Split!) Transitions, SPIs, NMAVE-4... awesome! (even though I'd personally prefer NMAVE-4 over TLA-7, MAVE-6 and OWR4/5 (I just don't have enough room for those  )... but again, whatever, just my point of view)

You probably already know, but I'll still tell you:
Great things are coming from you (speaking of the whole team of course) and we're all grateful!

Sincerely
Yuyu

[firefighter57]

I don't know why bother put gates on each side of the track in that case then, same goes for draw bridges, not that we will see those in this game again, anytime soon.

I know many times it is done for emergency purposes.  In Poughkeepsie, NY, there are 2 large one way roads that got east/west.  the West bound is north of the city and the east bound is south.  Anyways, there are traffic lights at all intersections facing the "wrong" direction and it is for 1. like you said in case someone is driving the wrong way or 2. so that in evacuations or other mass travel where they need to switch the direction of travel, they can do so while still having safe intersections.

[travismking]

that actually makes a lot of sense, more than the explanation i came up with :p

[GDO29Anagram]

 

iThink I just figured out why the textures are all weird for all the NWM transition pieces, especially with the AVE-2 to AVE-4 transition:

1. There are four kinds of textures for one particular unit of road network: No wealth (IE, no grass or no zoning), low wealth, medium wealth, and high wealth.
2. The low, medium, and high wealth textures are used exclusively for low-density development, while the no wealth textures are used for both higher density development and when there's no zones touching the road network.
3. The fact that the AVE-2 to AVE-4 transition piece requires medium or high density to show the sidewalks and grass properly tells me that the no wealth textures also have grass, resulting in the strange "grass effect" concerning zoning along a transition piece and removing the zones afterwards.

[Tarkus]

Actually, the main thing with the whole wealth thing has to do with the meaning of the seventh digit of the Instance ID (IID) assigned to textures and segments of puzzle pieces.  (Warning: Technical explanation follows . . . )

IIDs in general, with respect to modding, are 8-digit hex numbers, prefixed by "0x", for example, 0x51131000 is the IID for the MAVE-4/Street + Intersection.  With regards to transit textures, the eighth digit is reserved to deal with zoom (generally, 0 for Zoom 1 up to 4 for Zoom 5, though these can be offset in some situations).  The seventh digit deals with wealth and affects the texture displayed if it is zone-adjacent.  In most standard cases (as in the case of our example above, 0x51131000), it works as follows:

0 = No Wealth/Unzoned
1 = Low Wealth/Low Density
2 = Mid Wealth/Low Density
3 = High Wealth/Low Density
4 = Low Wealth/Mid-to-High Density
5 = Mid Wealth/Mid-to-High Density
6 = High Wealth/Mid-to-High Density
7 = Agricultural

Seems simple enough so far, right?  Well, the whole nature of puzzle pieces throws a little kink into it.

Without going into a whole dissertation about RUL files, puzzle pieces use the 6th and 7th digits for purposes of positioning.  A base "IID" (the "AutoTileBase") is defined, which corresponds to the upper-left corner of the puzzle piece.  All the other segments of the puzzle piece are assembled according to where the sixth and seventh digits of their IIDs, which correspond to X and Y-coordinates.

If you have a 1x2 puzzle piece set up as follows:

   |
   |

assuming an AutoTileBase of 0x5CEB0000, the top tile is going to assume the AutoTileBase definition.  The other piece needs to have the IID 0x5CEB0010.  So in other words, the IID that the lower piece needs to have also happens to correspond to the IID that would be used for the Low Wealth/Low Density wealth texture for the upper piece.  So they conflict very heavily--the seventh digit is "overloaded".  Depending on how that piece is designed, it can lead to the lower texture showing up underneath the upper piece--the "wealth-level glitch", which was epidemic in RHW Version 2.0.

As such, wealthification of puzzle pieces was not really bothered with for some time, but eventually found its way onto some smaller pieces of more recent origin.  The NWM transitions are really the first wide-scale implementation of it, and it still has some quirks to it.

3. The fact that the AVE-2 to AVE-4 transition piece requires medium or high density to show the sidewalks and grass properly tells me that the no wealth textures also have grass, resulting in the strange "grass effect" concerning zoning along a transition piece and removing the zones afterwards.

Actually, the no-wealth textures are grassless.  Some clever IIDing had to be done in order to get the wealth textures to show up at all on there, and that's one of the side effects of it.  That piece is (by far) the largest to get wealthing treatment. 

Now on another note . . . you know how I said the NMAVE-4 was a "long term" project, in large part because it was missing intersection textures?  Well, a certain transit armadillo burrowed some out . . . and some paths to go with them.







The main thing left is T-Intersections between the NMAVE and the other NWM networks, and Wide-Radius Curves.  Then it'll be up to the same specs as all the other single-tile NWM networks.

There's a lot more where that came from . . . a lot more that I'm not quite ready to reveal yet.   Suffice to say, I'm really quite excited about the future of the Network Widening Mod.

-Alex

[GDO29Anagram]

...

0 = No Wealth/Unzoned
1 = Low Wealth/Low Density
2 = Mid Wealth/Low Density
3 = High Wealth/Low Density
4 = Low Wealth/Mid-to-High Density
5 = Mid Wealth/Mid-to-High Density
6 = High Wealth/Mid-to-High Density
7 = Agricultural

...

Whoa whoa whoa, Tark, slow down... There's MORE?!!  (iThought it was just 0, 1, 2, and 3... Then what's 8, 9, a, b, c, d, e, and f used for...?)

First of all, iThought that since I've been modding textures that "end" with 0, 1, 2, and 3, the texture that "ends" with 0 is shared with all the higher densities and no wealth. (Note that when I say "end" enclosed with quotation marks here, I'm actually referring to the seventh digit.)

What you're telling me (As far as I can deduce) is that if there is no texture for 4, 5, 6, and 7, the 0 texture will be assigned for the missing textures. (I'm making a texture mod, and I'm beginning to think that I'm missing something; You can MODIFY THE HIGHER DENSITY TEXTURES?!! I THOUGHT THE NO WEALTH AND HIGHER DENSITY TEXTURES WERE SHARED!!! Trying that... Now...)

I read the NAM's own DAT files, and discovered that several textures, the OWR to Road transition texture and the Street Roundabout textures for example, only has one texture, which just "ends" with 0, resulting with just one texture being used for everything. I assigned textures for the values 1, 2, and 3 for those things, thereby proving my theory that having no textures assigned for 1, 2, and 3 (At the very least) will just have the 0 texture fill in the missing bits.

So many things that I've figured out myself (Terraforming being one, lot editing being another, and most recently is texture modification), and now you've flooded me with more information that I never knew existed that concerns textures...

Hexadecimal, I can understand. So what you're also telling me is that the values you've shown me that would otherwise be assigned to wealth textures are being used for something else, which results with weird things with starter pieces, especially with RHW 2.0, and now, with NWM transition pieces...?

What next, paths?!! (There's gotta be a separate thread for these things... If there is, you really have to show me... That'd be appreciated...)

[Tarkus]

Whoa whoa whoa, Tark, slow down... There's MORE?!!

Oh yes, a lot more.   Transit modding's a pretty big field.  Heck, I don't know everything myself.

(iThought it was just 0, 1, 2, and 3... Then what's 8, 9, a, b, c, d, e, and f used for...?)

The game does not use them/recognize them as part of a wealth ID scheme.  I actually started taking advantage of this last year with the NWM to be able to put more textures in a smaller IID range.  If you look over the NWM .dat file, you'll notice some of the ARD-3 T Intersections, which need to have two forms, use 0-7 for one form and 8-F for the second.  (i.e. 0x51023100 and 0x51023180)

What you're telling me (As far as I can deduce) is that if there is no texture for 4, 5, 6, and 7, the 0 texture will be assigned for the missing textures.

Yes, but with whatever wealth-appropriate sidewalk underneath it, filling in any transparent spot on the texture.

(I'm making a texture mod, and I'm beginning to think that I'm missing something; You can MODIFY THE HIGHER DENSITY TEXTURES?!!

Yes, though it's not particularly common knowledge.  Most people just know about 0-3.

So what you're also telling me is that the values you've shown me that would otherwise be assigned to wealth textures are being used for something else, which results with weird things with starter pieces, especially with RHW 2.0, and now, with NWM transition pieces...?

Exactly.  I think part of it is that EA/Maxis hadn't really anticipated there'd be a bunch of modders out there making flat-plane-model puzzle pieces.  The original contents of the straight-out-of-the-box version of RUL 0x10000000 (the puzzle piece RUL file) is pretty much exclusively Maxis Highway-related stuff, and they had things worked out there to avoid these sorts of glitches there.

What next, paths?!! (There's gotta be a separate thread for these things... If there is, you really have to show me... That'd be appreciated...)

There's a few tutorial threads floating around . . . if you're wondering about how paths work, Blue Lightning's tutorial can be found here.  It's an interesting read.

As far as I know, there isn't anything quite this wacky that affects paths, though.

-Alex

[io_bg]

Sweet, I love the way the NMAVE4 looks! And I'm getting pretty curious what are the other things that you're "not quite ready to reveal yet"

[Ciuu96]

Woah, NMAVE-4 is really looking good! Those sidewalks sure are tiny

--

Just a quick mockup, but has anyone ever thought about this:



So it's a Tram-On-MAVE-4, if someone didn't notice

[MandelSoft]

^^ I have thought of that, but never made a texture for it. It looks good