Started by z, August 02, 2008, 05:07:50 PM
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Quote from: sumwonyuno on November 10, 2009, 02:55:47 AMWell, I thought such mass inter-city commutes was a feature, not a bug of Simulator Z (because it's intentional and documented). The commuters will just stick to the freeway because it's fast (even with 65535 cars + buses) and has high capacity compared to the surface streets. It almost seems as if commuters aren't trying find the closest (available and appropriate) job and then a path to it, but rather the available and appropriate job they can get to the fastest. I would have to say it has to do with something that's different between Z and A, because the traffic simulator plugin + congestion view are the only things that I've changed do the tests. The bug is probably related to the issue I have of commuters in the suburbs not going toward the intended job city tiles, but go en masse to a "wrong" city tile (that only has a small clinic and school for jobs). I'll see if Simulator A makes a difference.
Quote from: Pharaon-Kheops on November 10, 2009, 02:59:30 AMMaybe, a plugin, used only by certain styles of play is causing a pb?
Quote from: Pharaon-Kheops on November 10, 2009, 04:16:27 AMwell, I would try my best for that, but though I agree it "must" be a mod, you can actually put anything you want in a dat file. So nothing can guarantee that an unwanted sim exemplar hadn't been "packed" erroneously in a building dat by an unadvised modder... And I have 3 Go of plugins^^
Quote from: xxdita on November 10, 2009, 04:32:18 AMZ, I hope you're keeping track of all the files you're posting here, so you can add them to a Cleanitol for removal upon the next release?
Quote from: z on November 09, 2009, 11:31:15 PMWe had this exact discussion a year ago, didn't we? After months of discussion and research, two things emerged:The game contains a fairly reliable scale of speeds and distances, based on the fact that a single game square is 16m long. (At very small scales, the game sacrifices proportion for the sake of visibility, but this does not significantly affect game play.)Population in SC4 cities is not comparable to population in RL cities.The second point is supported by measurements made by David while building 3RR. In a post in this thread made last December 1st, I said,You say here:And in an earlier post:The implication I read here is that commute times either have gone down in Toronto or are expected to go down, and that the same is true ("I am sure") in other parts of the world. No supporting figures are given.Let's look at the actual figures.In the issue of Time Magazine dated November 9th, at the bottom of page 11, there is the statement: "15 minutes [is] the mean amount of time it takes people in Grand Forks, N.D. to get to work - the shortest commute of any U.S. metro area." That's a one-way commute, so the mean round-trip commute is 30 minutes. But in SC4, we talk about maximum commutes. Now the maximum commute for an area is typically much more than twice the mean commute, but we'll be very conservative, and we'll use a figure of twice the mean commute. This means that the shortest maximum commute of any U.S. metropolitan area is 60 minutes. And of course, the average maximum commute in the U.S. is much more than that. Compare this with the 17 minute maximum commute time of Simulator A.Let's go specifically to Toronto. You're Canadian; you seem to know Toronto. But how do the actual figures stack up? Here are the average round trip commute times for major Canadian cities, courtesy of the Government of Canada:So the average round-trip commute time for Toronto commuters is 80 minutes, meaning that the maximum round-trip commute is somewhere over 160 minutes - about a factor of 10 higher than Simulator A's maximum. Are those condos bringing that number down? Or are they going to soon? Here are excerpts from an article from the Toronto Star which use the same figures:These are official government figures. And the trend is just getting worse. That's the real Toronto; the small number of condos built in the city center isn't making a difference, nor is it expected to in the near future.I've just seen that sumwonyuno has posted. At first glance, the results seem somewhat anomalous, but it will take time to analyze them. Question for sumwonyuno: Are you using Simulator Z v1.2?
Quote from: xxdita on November 10, 2009, 04:32:18 AMI've never seen a traffic sim included in a building or lot dat file. Not even on a cheat lot.
Quote from: z on November 10, 2009, 04:07:11 AMWell, that test eliminates all the possibilities I can think of for an actual bug in Simulator Z.I think all your guesses are correct here. When you say, "It almost seems as if commuters aren't trying find the closest (available and appropriate) job and then a path to it, but rather the available and appropriate job they can get to the fastest," that sounds very likely, because that's what they're supposed to do. Is it faster for them to get to the next tile than to get to the unused jobs? That would explain everything. If I recall correctly, you use streets a lot rather than roads - this would also make this explanation more likely. And what makes it the most likely explanation of all is that I can't think of anything else. Fortunately, there's an easy fix. All you have to do is use Simulator Z (Low) - Local Edition. Oh yeah, I've got to make it first... There! It's done and attached to the bottom of this post. Please let me know how it goes.That's quite possible - if so, it would most likely be a mod of some sort. Neither the CAM nor the NAM should do this; I wouldn't worry about them. And from your description, it sounds like you've eliminated my theory about water.But you say it's not always reproducible, correct? If you could find out what triggers it, that would be extremely helpful.
Quote from: Pharaon-Kheops on November 10, 2009, 10:37:09 AMI definitely agree with JPlumbey about these not being minutes since there is a "convertion unit" in the simulator.
QuoteI also remembered having read something about road top mass transit lot and how they work, but not exactly where... and I do use RTMTV. Could the kind of "reseting" affecting commuter's routes each time they pass through these lots have an impact on the way the simulators are working (or at least, lead to unexpected effects...)?
Quote from: z on November 10, 2009, 12:02:40 PMRTMT has no more effect on the traffic simulators than any other transit stations.
Quote from: z on November 10, 2009, 12:02:40 PMThe "resetting" was a theory of Jason's, promoted as fact, that was disproven by a number experiments a year ago. RTMT has no more effect on the traffic simulators than any other transit stations.
Quote from: xxdita on November 10, 2009, 12:12:46 PMNot completely true. The capacity set by the RTMT lots greatly effect the traffic flow at that point in the road. If the capacity of the RTMT isn't set to match up with the traffic simulator in use, then you've now limited the flow of traffic between these RTMT stops, forcing anything over that capacity to find an alternate route. Unless of course you're providing a set of RTMT for every traffic sim?
Quote from: sumwonyuno on November 10, 2009, 12:13:20 PMI tried the latest modified Simulator Z Low and there's still tens of thousands of Sims commuting through and past the Downtown city tile. Jobs aren't being taken because the commuters aren't exiting off the freeway.There are 4 westbound offramps in that city tile, 2 of which only make sense for getting to jobs. The first encountered offramp leads to an overcongested north-south roadway that also serves the high-rise area north of the freeway. So, I thought that freeway commuters weren't getting off because of that roadway. However, the next exit (which leads into the main avenue into Downtown) is barely used. Only a hundred or so commuters get off at that exit. When I tested with Simulator A, nearly all of the remaining westbound commuters got off at this offramp. So what about the roads between that offramp and jobs? Those roadways aren't even yellow this time. With other versions of Simulator Z, there is much more usage on the roadways in this part of town. I'm not sure what you're changing with the versions you're asking me.
Quote from: Pharaon-Kheops on November 10, 2009, 02:59:30 AMbut in this case, there are PLENTY of jobs (and buildable empty ind and comm zones alike),
Quote from: b22rian on November 10, 2009, 01:25:03 PMkeep in mind the CAM has the demand bug , where the game see the residential capacity as doubled..
QuoteThe Low capacity version is designed for rural areas and/or small- or medium-sized towns; it is basically designed for regions where there will never be a need for a traffic simulator with a capacity higher than the Hard version of Simulators A or B, or the Low version of Simulator Z. In numerical terms, this translates into a road capacity of about 2500. The High capacity version of RTMT stations is designed for all regions above that limit.
Quote from: xxdita on November 10, 2009, 12:12:46 PM Not completely true. The capacity set by the RTMT lots greatly effect the traffic flow at that point in the road. If the capacity of the RTMT isn't set to match up with the traffic simulator in use, then you've now limited the flow of traffic between these RTMT stops, forcing anything over that capacity to find an alternate route. Unless of course you're providing a set of RTMT for every traffic sim?
Quote from: z on November 10, 2009, 09:57:10 PMAs for Jason's posts, though there is much to respond to there, my responses do not seem to have been helpful up until now, and I have no reason to expect that this will change. It has come to the point where it does not seem productive for me to participate here any more. So I will be taking my leave from this site for now. I should know soon whether this leave is temporary or permanent. In either case, you should hear from me at least one more time.
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