A transit enabled filler Lot for diagonal BATs & roads (Project)

[Badsim]

After have left a comment in the thread Bengt BATtorium about the impossibility to add props on sidewalks in front of diagonal buildings (so overhanging BATs to Lots )  , Bengt requested from me some suggestions . There are several complexe solutions . Bengt could integrate props to his models indeed ... but Bengt isn't the only one working on diagonal buildings . There's also prepo , so I think that we need a global solution . Another solution would have been to create a special off-centered props pack ... but these props would have been uneasy to use ( to place ) on each Lot due to all various positions needed . And after a few searches at Simtropolis , It seems that the only way to make this kind of props is to off-center them before rendering with the BAT . It's above my competences and frankly , I think that considering the few people truly interested by that kind of details and the use of LotEditor , who would LotEdit all Bengt and prepo's BATs with these props ?

So IMO , the best global solution is a transit enabled Lot with props on sidewalks (suggested to me by flame1396 by PM ). I know that It can't be perfect ( principally because we can't put two transit enabled Lots side by side ) , but it works enough well like it is . This is just my first work on this Lot , I present it there to listen at your suggestions to improve it . I can release it with several base textures , rather use another tree and so on ...

The Lot itself ...the diagonal cars are from cycledogg .



In situation , this Lot repeated each two tiles ... I can make a family prop with all cycledogg's diagonal cars to make them appear randomely ...



In situation with the only diagonal BAT I've got , Kolmiotalo by prepo ...





I have opened a new thread instead of post this on my own , because this is only  a project and we have to discuss about this .  For example , there's currently  a problem about alignment of already released W2W diagonal BATs ( I've had to correct the position of  Kolmiotalo on the picture above ) ... so , even if I'm already sure to do that for my own use , is it worth to try a Lot to share ? 

[iamgoingtoeatyou]

another brilliant idea!

[jplumbley]

You do know that you can make T21 Exemplars that will put props on those diagonals.  And this wont screw with the pathing of the roads.  And it wont prevent you from zoning around these roads.  And it will allow you to make intersections. 

Shall I go on?  Or should I post a link to a thread I posted in about TE Lots for Network Tiles?  Here I will post the link and quote my post:

http://www.simtropolis.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=37&threadid=92583&enterthread=y

As to the status of TE Lots.  TE Lots are NOT good for transit networks.  I will tell you why:

1.   The intended purpose of a TE lot is for Transit Stations (Bus stops, Subways, etc.)

2.   TE Lots with SC4Path files theoretically work.  But in actual usage they dont work properly 100% of the time.  The biggest issue with these is that the Sims can "jump" paths.  This is relevent in many cases, most of the time when a TE Lot is placed between two networks of the same type, like Road/TE Lot/Highway.  You will notice that the Sims will use the TE lot as a shortcut from the Road to the Highway and it will seem as if they float through the air.  This is a very bad thing, it screws around with commute times and pathfinding.

3.  These lots can NOT be placed next to each other.

4.  TE Lots are a major component of the well known and well documented NAM puzzle piece CTD.  Remember when GLR was all puzzle pieces?  You would be placing a Station and hold it over a GLR piece by accident, or you would be placing a GLR track puzzle piece and you'd have a CTD.  The biggest reason this happened was because you would have touch a TE Lot when placing GLR Puzzle Pieces.

Now imagine having these TE Lots ALL over your city at the intersections or where you wanted the texture of the Road to be a little different.  Your # of CTDs will sky rocket when using puzzle pieces.

5.  There are better ways to do what these people are trying to do!  They want to add variety to the game.  There are 2 ways to add a variety of intersections:
          A)  T21 Exemplars - These are essentially lot files to networks.  They are just as easy as lots to make and are tied to certain Network Textures. 

          For example Aznoverdrive has made a variety of extra stop lights.  IF he took these stoplights and made lots for them he could easily copy the appropriate LotConfig Properties from the Lot Exemplar to the T21 Exemplar.  Then in the property that references the Road 4way Intersection's Texture all he would have to do is put in the IID of that Texture.

          The way T21s work is that there can be upto 256 different "Lot" variations of a Network Texture.  When the intersection is drawn the game randomly selects a T21 "Lot" variation to place.  So, IF Aznoverdrive had made these TE Lots as T21s it would not override the original stoplights (unless he made the new stoplight have the same IID) and it would allow for the game to randomly select the type of stoplight chosen.

          B)  The other way would be to make a puzzle piece.  Puzzle pieces are MUCH safer.  They do not in have quite as many issues with path jumping as TE Lots.  In fact that number is very close to 0.  The only time it has been documented is Path jumping from 15m to 0m in intersections like Raised Road over Road.  Each puzzle piece could have its own set of stoplights and they would not have such a texture difference (Brightness) which you see in many of the TE Lot uploads.  This gives you the choice of which stoplights are placed where and they are much safer, and are calculated in teh path finding and commute time properly as they works as if they were a part of the network, unlike TE Lots.

          C)  For those TE Lots that have overhanging textures use to change the look of a network.  This is one of the worst applications of textures I have ever seen.  If you want to see the proper way of adding texture variations to networks goto SC4Devotion and check out the Street Addon Mod (SAM, a link is in my signature), other great projects that are in production that are "adding" networks are the Turning Lane Avenues (TLA), Rural Highway (RHW), Wider Avenues, One Way Road - 5, etc.  All of these projects are not replacements of the vanilla networks they are alternate texture variations which are draggable from a puzzle piece drag starter.  These projects will change the way we play the game and I guarentee they will not take the shortcuts used by the people here who are creating TE Lots.

I hope these modders will finally stop making these TE Lots.  They are very bad lots and modding applications from a technical standpoint.  I would not recommend to anyone that these lots be downloaded because they simply are just not good for the pathfinding system and they certainly are not upto the standards of NAM.

[mightygoose]

couple of points... is it not possible to use t21 exemplars to expand jeronij's streetside mod to encompass diagonals and then is it not also possible to do a road version...

[Andreas]

Well, jplumbley summed up the issues related to transit enabled lots pretty comprehensively, and I can only agree that you should use type 21 exemplar files for this purpose. This is how jeronij's and my own Street Tree Mod is working (actually, we put the same items that you showed on our "network lots" - trees, cars and lampposts). Such a mod isn't very hard to make - just tedious, because it requires some planning, and quite a bit copy & paste work in the Reader. But basically, you start off with the Lot Editor as well, creating some lots that provide the prop layout. I think there's a T21 exemplar file tutorial somewhere out there, just look for it.

[flame1396]

Jeroni street mod for daigonals??

[Andreas]

Yes, that would it be in essence.

[jplumbley]

Eventually, when all the functional modding of SAM is done I will be either creating my own "Jernoij's Streetside Mod" for SAM or I will talk to Andreas and Jeronij to adapt both of their mods to include SAM T21s that look essentially the same as the ones they have made for the MAXIS vanilla Street Textures.

T21s are not used for just Streets, they are used for props on EVERY network out there.  All kinds of things can be done with them, you just have to understand the scale of what you are doing to start.  If you are making the T21s for a Road/Road Intersection you only have to make one T21, but if you are doing it for the diagonals in the Road network then you have to deal with ALL textures such as Street intersections, rail intersections, etc.  Then you have to plan what wealths you want everything on or whether you want that T21 to be used on all wealths.  You can have upto 256 varitations for one set of network textures (meaning one network piece, with all wealths and all zones).

The key to a T21 Mod is planning and time.  The more time planning = the less time modding.

[Andreas]

At the moment, I don't have the time for doing any modding in this area, but I think I still have my lot templates that I used for my Street Tree Mod, so anyone who wants to take up this challenge is welcome to adapt it for other network items as well. And it needs indeed quite some planning in the first place, which surely pays off later, once you're in the actual modding process. I even started a Street Tree Mod for the diagonal streets as well, based on an alpha mod that smoncrie started back in 2005 or so, but it never got very far, and at the moment, I can't find the files for this mod. They are somewhere, but I have to clean up my testing folders first.

[jplumbley]

@Andreas  I did not mean you would have much modding to do.  In fact I would have done a copy/paste exemplar into a new file change the IIDs, change the reference textures, wam bam... SAM T21s.

[rooker1]

This sounds fatastic and I hope someone is willing to do this.  I know I would use it.

Robin   

[mightygoose]

i wanted to look at doing effectively a SAM for avenues.... that way we could have all kinds of cool looking boulevards....

[jplumbley]

i wanted to look at doing effectively a SAM for avenues.... that way we could have all kinds of cool looking boulevards....

We have already started, to an extent.  It is called Network Widening Mod, all of the new Avenue types are being made into Draggable options in the same way.  The problem with NWM is that the wider the network the more RULs there are exponentially.  For a simple 4way intersection, instead of having 8 basic RULs, I had a set of about 30 lines of RULs for one intersection.  The RULs are much more complex compared to the single lane networks.

[mightygoose]

like these kinda things... ot just NWM

[Badsim]

Already great to have attracted there some eminent Modders ... I guess how you're busy guys .
Well , I'm just a Lotter ( and have my own priorities as ....) so I can just hope one of you will handle this ASAP .
Now, I've got to correct my first post ; obviously the global solution will be a Mod and not a TE Lot . Let's say that It would have been a cheap and temporary solution .

jplumbley , I know the inconveniences coming with TE Lots ( AntigOne have tens of them ) , but as there're many aspects of this game there're different kind of players . Some like me give absolute priority to the look of their cities rather than perfect technical standpoints ... this isn't always compatible , because the game wasn't done for that . I'm just a handyman playing in a certain way with the limits ( will it be a CTD or a props' POX ? ) but haven't so far meet them . The same AntigOne is running since more than 2 years and it is surely an unusual longevity for a city tile , that doesn't prove anything - that wasn't the purpose - that only means I just can't stop ... and will have to be stopped . That's a conscious risk which no one is obliged to follow ... That said I've got to be carefull with what I'm going to share - sure ! -

For those reasons I give up with the intention to share this Lot . I hope that however the discuss will continue here or anywhere else .

[Krio]

I like the idea about diagonal streetside mod more than TE lots, because making whole road network using lots would be annoying  But I'll promise to add some stuff to my diagonal buildings and their lots.