Terraforming Teton

[dedgren]

Having now read for a second time your recent post, which was both thoughtful and insightful, all I can think of is...

...been there - done that!

For one, I have probably, by now, "reimported" each of 3RR's 256 quads at least twice, and a fair handfull more often than that.

Unfortunately, my sense after my own experience with all this is that many of the issues you've grappled with are at the fundamentally flawed heart of this great game.  When it comes right down to it, it can all be summed up in a point some commenter made over at ST when the author of a thread was bemoaning his/her inability to create precise natural landscapes...

...why, after all, in the heck do you think they named it Sim City?

The point being, of course, that we are not playing Sim Countryside, or Sim Landscape Designer.  I really doubt Maxis put any particular degree of thought at all into what would go on outside a player's built-up areas and, to the extent it did, the result was the incredibly broken way the game deals with "farm" (i.e.: rural) development.

Surface "game" water or, alternatively, the ability to have water at different elevations in the game is a perfect example.  It's apparent that the issue was on Maxis' radar screen, hence the unfinished "rain" component exploited by Teirusu in his mod.  But the fundamental principle that "water flows downhill" remains beyond our grasp.  I've dealt with that in 3RR's fantasy landforms by flattening everywhere I want significant water to "game" water level.  You don't have that luxury in your RL based region.  I plan to use ploppable water, but only where I can make it look good, which is in tiny streams.  PW lakes and ponds look like cr-p for mainly one reason- the surface is dead (the same can be said for the canals by worthies such as SimGoober and others).  Peg's ponds and waterways look like cr-p for another- the banks are ludicrously regular and griddy (they are also from some world other than ours where perfect little berms mark the divide between land and water, but that's another topic). 

n.b.:  Let me say here that I have no BAT ability and the vast contribution to the game of the folks I've mentioned dwarfs anthing I have accomplished.  I am in awe of their work, generally.  I'm not wanting to start a flame war- I'm just speaking plain truth.  We all, at some point, have to play with the cards Maxis dealt us, and in some areas of the game, we can count on a lousy hand.

I gave up a long time ago feeling, when I look at an otherwise perfect pic from someones CJ or MD and see some heinous little arrow straight-90 degree bend- arrow straight waterway, like I'm looking at a booger hanging off the Mona Lisa's nose.  I just accept that this is the way things is and move on.  My own region is full of lousy compromises.  There's stuff there that I would give almost anything to change, and it's only the little voice in the back of my head screaming at me that this is just a game after all that keeps me, once it finally gets my attention, from nuking my hard drive of all things SC and looking around for that old copy of Lode Runner.

I haven't ranted about SC4 probably ever in the coming up on three years I've been part of the community, and I apologize for doing so here.  That said, what you're dealing with and have described so well perfectly sums up the trouble that lies at the heart of our shared paradise.  I look forward to watching you overcome (or, per the foregoing, sometimes gracefully accept and accomodate) all the immense obstacles that playing this wonderful game at the next level presents.

Good luck!


David

[Rayden]

You're also a Lode Runner fan? 

[Ajax]

The information you have provided with regard to your water/tree situation is first-rate! 

David, your "rant" about SC4 has been clanking around in my head in one form or another for years, as I am certain it has for many, many others.  You (as well as several others) have presented some creative solutions for some of these issues.

[pvarcoe]

Thanks folks for the kind replies!

Rayden - I know what you mean. The choices and quality of NHP maps is outstanding. Thanks!
emilin - Thanks for popping in emilin.
jacqulina - Hi jackie. Good to see you and thanks!
Ajax - The trees have been a challenge, but a fun one. Thanks for dropping in.
jplumbley - Welcome jplumbley. I love the work you did on Invemere. I hope Beskhu3epnm is happy with "this Teton". Thanks for the kind words.
thundercrack83 - Welcome and thanks!
bat - HI bat. Thank you very much.
emilin Welcome back and thank you for the kind comment on my "ramblings".
Alex King of SC4 - Hi Alex. I have been looking at the Italia mod too!. I can't get over the complexity and sophistication of these newest terrain and tree mods.
Rayden - The higher elevation shrubs sound interesting. I hadn't picked up on that yet. Thanks.
dedgren - Hi David. I appreciate your thoughts on the challenges we face. Thank you for expressing your compliments for this MD. I'm a huge fan and close follower of 3RR.
Ajax - Welcome again Ajax. Thank you for the compliments on my Tree and Water jouney.



Update 3, A little more info on trees...

A mentioned in my last update, I am using one of the newer tree controllers by cycledogg. These mods are really amazing. I'll post a couple of sceenshots to show some of the results and then write about them a little more. The first shot is with trees down at sea level or game water level if you prefer 



I can pick out at least 6 different types of trees and flora, maybe more. This next shot is a little more alpine.



In the shadow of the mountain the trees grow thick. Again I can pick out numerous varieties, and some will grow on patches of snow. Hopefully these 2 shots illustrate some of the complexity of cycledogg's tree controllers.


The beauty of this mod, is that using the god-mode flora brush, it places all the varieties of trees in one step. There is no need to select different types of trees and place them individually. The tree controller places the varieties depending on elevation, and slope of ground. The amount of percieved moisture in the area also seems to affect it. The end result is pretty realistic.

Now, as I previously mentioned I am using the Olympic tree controller. There are several other tree controllers by cycledogg. Italia, Meadowshire, and Missouri Breaks to name a few. You do not need to have one of his "Terrain Mods" installed to use the tree controller. But obviously the terrain mods compliment the tree mods.

Now when you install one of his tree controllers (and you can only have one installed at a time) you are faced with an extensive list of dependencies. A more than fair trade considering the results. Included with the tree mod is a very good readme with links to all dependecies. There are 13 dependencies in all. They give you a total of 34 types of forest. These include trees and flora by cycledogg, Jeronij, Couchpotato, Simgoober, JohnB, Dolphin66, Swi21, and Ripptide. The beauty of it is, once you install the needed dependency files the first time (for whichever tree mod), the other tree controllers use the same dependencies.

Now I found something that might just be my imagination, but for me it seems to be the case. After installing the dependencies I tried the god-mode flora brush for a while. It worked as advertized, but my computer is not the fastest (2.2 gig cpu, 512 megs ram, 128meg video card, not bad, not super great) and the god-mode flora brush worked the computer hard at times (as in lag).

I took a look at the directory (folder) structure of the dependency files (they are BAT and SC4DESC files). This structure is created by the dependency file installers. Most files reside in sub folders and sub sub folders. Just for kicks I tried moving all DAT and SC4DESC tree/flora files into a top-level folder, that resides in the plugins directory (\My Docs\Simcity 4\Plugins\) of course. In that same folder I also placed the Olympic tree Contoller file. That file (and all cycledoog tree contoller files) start with CPT_No7a .

It could be my imagination, but the god-mode flora brush seemed to run faster. So if you're curious give that a try, but be careful, it wouldn't be hard to botch it up!! Just a note, the total number of DAT and SC4DESC tree files is about 159.

Another thing to note, is when using one of the newer cycledgg tree controllers with the god-mode flora brush tool, the brushes raduis that appears while you use it, is significantly larger than the standard maxis one. This allows you to place your forests quicker. A nice little touch, I'd say.

I'm sure that's enough about tree controllers, but if you have questions post them and Ill try to help. It's not like I'm an official tester; these are just things I've observed while playing with them.



I have almost finished treeing my region. There are areas still to tweak, but I'll leave you with a few screenshots. These will give you a little better sense of the "tree results" from a regional perspective.

This shot is a nice mountainous area in the central west portion of the region.


Here's a shot of the southern lake's western shoreline.


And lastly a full region shot. Needs more work...I'll write about that in the next update (I think).


Thanks for checking Teton out!

[jplumbley]

Thanks for your comment on Invermere Valley. 

Anyways, your terraforming of the waterfront is very nice!!  What I am wondering is, are you using the God Mode tools, Mayor Mode tools or SC4Terraformer to do the water edge?  Your getting a nice effect and I may want to try it out one day. 

[thundercrack83]

Coming along very nicely. The water looks great, and I agree with jplumbley, the shoreline looks outstanding. I am also curious as to how you did it.

[mjig_dudy]

WOW  .

This is simply outstanding work. You are putting so much effort into this it.

The region looks stunning with trees. I especially like it near the snow line.

Amazing work

[LP_Green]

Wow! The mountains are simply amazing. I love them! They remind me the Rocky Mountains in North America. They are so great and your job with the trees in incredible! Great job mate!

LP

[dedgren]

Best. Mountains. Ever.

[Ajax]

Stunning pics!  Beautiful work! 'Nuff said!

[bat]

The mountains are very great and the landscape looks very realistic and fantastic!

[Alfred.Jones]

Very nice terraforming Keep it up mate

[TheTeaCat]

Superb update. It were like a mini tutorial too ta very much.

I like the way way you worked around the limitations of the game.
I can put up with most of them, but the ones that really get me
and the most frustrating are the ramdom crashes to desktop.

Oh well its usually just after you "got summat juuuust Right!" and you haven't saved the game. Doh

Keep up the good work mate, wiill be following with interest!

ps Kettle's on

[jeronij]

Great use of the trees, and great map you choosed 

David, I couldnt agree more with your first post in this page  .

[Owen Luby]

Dedgren stole my comment...

Great work thoughk it's ll so lush!

[NikNik]

Great region.
Great way of playing even through the limtations of SC4 (enough said about that by others).

The mountain valleys and their layout are perfect for some rivers flowing down I guess.

Looking forwrd to more.

nik-Nik

[SIMMANIA]

The mountains are Soo realistic ! ! ! ! !


Bravo ! 

[pvarcoe]

Thanks for the extremely generous replies!


Note: You folks have graced me with many fine compliments, which I'm more than happy to receive.
I'll even take credit... for putting the end results together.
But most of the credit goes to the folks who create such excellent resources.
Beskhu3epnm of the NHP map folks, Wouanagaine author of Sc4Terraformer, and Cycledogg, author of the terrain and tree mods, make this all possible.
But you have all been very gracious and I really appreciate the time you take to comment on the end results.
Thank you all very much.


jplumbley - Thanks jplumbley. The results you see regarding the waterfront involve no hand terraforming. It's a result of modifying the elevation of the original map. And then the terrain mod - Meadowshire. Plus perhaps the tree controller - Olympic. I suspect the supplied beach file in the terrain mod probably created a lot of the end result.
thundercrack83 - Welcome back and thank you. See the reply above for my shoreline thoughts.
mjig_dudy - I'm pretty happy with the snowline results too! It makes me think of an early spring snowline. The trees just drift into the snowline in places.
LP_Green - The Rockies are the look I'm going for. I worry that my mountains are slightly too brown and not grey enough, but overall I'm happy. Thanks!
dedgren - I guess slightly stunned would descibe how I felt when reading your comment. Incredibly high praise coming from a terraforming master. I really appreciate it!
Ajax - Hey Ajax, Thanks as well and welcome back. Nice to see the MD gaining some regular visitors.
bat - I appreciate your comments bat. Thank you.
Alfred.Jones - I'll try to continue at this level. Your encouragement is appreciated.
TheTeaCat - Thanks for checking in TeaCat. I'll take you up on that cup!
jeronij - Hi Jeronij and welcome. Thanks for making this forum possible. It's good to hear that some challenges I face resonate with others in the community.
Owen Luby - hehe, thanks! I always liked that word lush. I agree, I think it describes the valleys.
NikNik - Welcome NikNik. Some ploppable water rivers and creeks are definetly in the plan.
SIMMANIA - Thanks SIMMANIA and welcome to Teton!



Here's a couple of random shots to tide you over (I hope).


This shot is a mountain and valley shot that illustrates the larger radius when using the cycledogg tree controller.


here's another shot of water. I love the way the tree controller lays the vegetationin these areas.



Next Update will be dealing with one of a terraformer's least favorite challenges. Seams
Thanks for checking Teton out!

[LP_Green]

Those mountains are so well terraformed and the overall look of your region is amazing! It's simply great! Well, those mountains do look like the Rockies! maybe not grey enough but they have a similar look!

Great job!

LP

[your_adress_here]

This is a very beautiful and well forested region. I especially like the way that your trees don't extend up into the snowy part of the mountains; that has always bothered my when I look at CJ's.