What causes Prop Pox (and how to avoid it)

[j-dub]

I think it would be something that would take sometime to make, but in the end result, you could weed out all problems and have a TON of things to go with the game. I mean with purchasing SC4/RushHour, compared to what add ons that are on this site. It is still pretty basic. So why don't the head mods put together their own game?  A challenge in and of its self, but worthy cause no?  You would have to ways going about it as I see it.  Getting the rights from EA or starting off fresh.  Maybe I'm just dreaming up a wild idea here.  But the support, and friendliness of this site alone, goes beyond anything else. There is a reason why it's called sc4"D"! 

@Final T: Oh, believe me when I say we, the rest of the SC4 community here and there have previously tried. The reason EA recently started to sell SC4 as a DLC game, is they know we, the people that truly do work on the game, we; the international modding community, are the people that did better work, despite they get paid, and did not really return the favor. The only thing that worked out was the original RHW, because they left an unfinished road network ship with the game. (however missing/unfinished Maxis civic buildings like a DMV, and various others did not ship with the game)

There have been times the community tried to talk to EA before, regarding the SC4 Source code, or getting an SDK (source developer kit), not a bunch of head mods, but there were plans to make almost a duplicated SC4 by rewriting the program from the ground up! What you said was basically the intention of the goal, and to still use SC4 custom content, as well as new 3D content that would have not made it into regular SC4, but that too ended up only being a dream. These days, game engines are more involved, as you know SC4 is restricted from full 3D with the locked camera angles. In the end, that turned out to be pretty hard. But, it seems that great minds think alike after all.

[dahemac]

Unfortunately some problem with SG Bus Stops and the RTMT is causing my pox.
Step 1 below shows the unpoxed city with one of the SG Bus Stops that is missing its shelter.
Step 2 shows that I have bulldozed the defective lot.
Then I saved, closed and reopened the city.
Step 3 shows that there is no change.
Step 4 shows that I plopped a new SG Bus Stop. It has its shelter.
Then I saved, closed and reopened the city.
Step 5 shows that the city is poxed.
I can repeat this over and over. If I plop a new SG Bus Stop, save close and open then the city is poxed.
Step 1

Step 2

Step 3

Step 4

Step 5

[finaltable]

Can anyone come up with a list of know files that could possibly cause the Pox effect to happen?  I have seen many people refer to the umbrella.  What umbrella and what file? 

If we had a list to go by, it would in turn be, (maybe) easier to avoid.  It seems to me that maybe you could start a list like.

1.) Umbrella        (file name/location)
2.) SG bus stop   (file name/location) 

This is just an example. 

Or maybe it is just not that easy. 

@ J-dub, yea so it seems that EA just wasn't willing to work with anyone in this international community.  That really blows.  I could think of 2 reasons.  First being EA doesn't want to deal with a group of different people and pay any $$ to anyone for making their game better.  Second EA  just doesn't care!  I'm going with the latter.  Being that EA gets most of it $$$ from sports games. 

After doing some research though, you would think that Will Wright would care more about his work of art that he created than to let it fall by the waste side.  I guess if you have an international community that can help improve the game at no cost to you, and it increases the sale of your game.  Why would you even bother?

[z]

Unfortunately some problem with SG Bus Stops and the RTMT is causing my pox.
Step 1 below shows the unpoxed city with one of the SG Bus Stops that is missing its shelter.
Step 2 shows that I have bulldozed the defective lot.
Then I saved, closed and reopened the city.
Step 3 shows that there is no change.
Step 4 shows that I plopped a new SG Bus Stop. It has its shelter.
Then I saved, closed and reopened the city.
Step 5 shows that the city is poxed.

Again, based on our present understanding, there is no way that the combination of props you described can be causing the pox.  The steps you followed did not ensure that the pox was ever removed from the city - simply that some of its symptoms were.  The pox was undoubtedly still present in the savegame file.  In order to verify that a city is pox free, you need to use the SC4 Savegame Explorer, whose use is explained elsewhere in this thread.

Can anyone come up with a list of know files that could possibly cause the Pox effect to happen?  I have seen many people refer to the umbrella.  What umbrella and what file? 

It's the beach umbrella in the file PEG_OWW2_BDK_RESOURCE.DAT.  This is the only known cause of the pox.  There are other causes, but no one has been able to isolate any of them yet.

[finaltable]

It's the beach umbrella in the file PEG_OWW2_BDK_RESOURCE.DAT.  This is the only known cause of the pox.  There are other causes, but no one has been able to isolate any of them yet.
[/quote]

Thanks z for the information.  So should I go in and delete the umbrella file in the file PEG_OWW2_BDK_RESOURCE.DAT.?  Would that help and is deleting it what I should do?

Also I looked in both of my PEG files in my plug ins folder and couldn't find the above mentioned folder/file? 

[z]

Thanks z for the information.  So should I go in and delete the umbrella file in the file PEG_OWW2_BDK_RESOURCE.DAT.?  Would that help and is deleting it what I should do?

Most of the currently asked questions have already been answered in this thread.  I'm just searching through it to pull them out:

How to avoid the problem

If you want to avoid the above described cause of Prop Pox, you have the following choices:

1-   Refraining from using Pegasus CDK3-OWW2 lots (the beach resource file contains a couple of SSH files used by the other OWW2 lots). Wait for Pegasus to release a patch to his package correcting the problem props.

2-   Open the PEG_OWW2_BDK_RESOURCE.DAT file with the ilive Reader, delete the items 11, 12, 13 and 14 (exemplar names R1x1x2_BeachChair_29B2, R1x1x3_PatioChair_290D, R1x2x2_Recliner_2911, and R2x3x2_$$Beachumbrella_2900), and save the file again. The three first props will no longer be time-dependent (the umbrella will still be time-dependent, appearing only during day time). But the lots will work fine. With no Prop Pox.

3-   Open the PEG_OWW2_BDK_RESOURCE.DAT file with the ilive Reader, change the exemplar name (p.ex., add a PEG_ before each name) and the instance of the items 11, 12, 13 and 14 (mark each one and select "generate new instance"), and save the file. Load each of the beach lots into LotEditor and replace each occurrence of these props by the corresponding new PEG_* prop and save the lots. Replace the original lots by the modified ones. They will work exactly as designed, but will no longer lead to Prop Pox.

Also I looked in both of my PEG files in my plug ins folder and couldn't find the above mentioned folder/file? 

In this case, either that file has been deleted in the past, or the pox in your city is being caused by something else.

FWIW, I am one of those who have a poxed city where the pox was not caused by the beach umbrella.  I had also never used SG's bus stops at the time the pox appeared.

[finaltable]

Thanks z for the reply.  I remember reading the "How to avoid the problem" part.  So sorry to be repetitive.  Your reply is very helpful me so thanks again.

The only problem is that I read and re-read the "How to avoid the problem" and I don't know what to do. 

I'm more lost with this...

3-   Open the PEG_OWW2_BDK_RESOURCE.DAT file with the ilive Reader, change the exemplar name (p.ex., add a PEG_ before each name) and the instance of the items 11, 12, 13 and 14 (mark each one and select "generate new instance"), and save the file. Load each of the beach lots into LotEditor and replace each occurrence of these props by the corresponding new PEG_* prop and save the lots. Replace the original lots by the modified ones. They will work exactly as designed, but will no longer lead to Prop Pox.

Just way over my head here with all of this...

Edit....I just did a search across my computer and couldn't find said file. PEG_OWW2_BDK_RESOURCE.DAT  Is it or was it in one of the dependencies?  Or is it possibly in a file that I have gotten to yet on the LEX disk or on the LEX site?

[dahemac]

Thanks z for the advice re "Save Game Explorer." I have it open right now.

Please note the really interesting thing. The poxed city has no disabled props. Please note also that the poxed city below is not the one from Step 5 of the earlier post. If you want to investigate this further I will make you a fresh new poxed city later today.

It says the the city in Step 1 is unpoxed.

Prop pox free city
252135 props found in city
Some infos about the props:
-0 disabled props found in city
-1337 tracking props found in city
-33682 timed over year props found in city
-16046 dayly timed props found in city
-49729 conditional props found in city
-From what kind of data :
--9 props alone
--241649 props from lot
--10458 props from T21

It does show that the poxed city from 110328 is poxed. This is the oldest version of the city I have archived that has corruption.

Prop poxed city !!!
Buffer corruption occurs around offset 0x01667FFC
259288 props found in city
Some infos about the props:
-0 disabled props found in city
-1399 tracking props found in city
-40583 timed over year props found in city
-14542 dayly timed props found in city
-55126 conditional props found in city
-From what kind of data :
--5 props alone
--249415 props from lot
--9852 props from T21

The procedure I took to cause the prop pox works every time. I tested it three times. I am not saying that there is anything wrong with the RTMT or the SG Bus Stops. I have used them for years. However when I updated the RTMT I replaced the SG DATs with the RTMT DATs of the same name. Then because the shelters disappeared on the SG stops I put the older DATs back. Since then I have removed the newer DATs. It no longer seems to make a difference however. Messing with SG Bus Stops now cause Prop pox in this city.

[z]

This is very interesting indeed!  Note the following recent quote by Dr. Propper himself:

Props that lead to Prop Pox become disabled when their lots are demolished or upgraded.
It is correct and safe to say that disabled props cause Prop Pox. However, since there is presently only one know group of props that drive the pox, one cannot say for sure if disabled props are the only cause of the pox or not. I would feel more confortable to say that if we find another cause of the pox that works the same way as the modified BDK props: by becoming disabled props (instead of being deleted from the buffer) when their lots are demolished/upgraded.

I have also worked with poxed cities quite a bit, and they have always contained disabled props.  I have never seen an output from Save Game Explorer that shows a poxed city with no disabled props, as yours does.

It is probably not a coincidence that SimGoober's bus stops (at least many of them) are timed props.

At this point, I think that people more expert than I at this need to take a look at what you've got, which appears to be a type of pox that's never been seen before.  I'll post a little note where some of them will see it, just in case they miss these posts.

[dahemac]

Thanks Z.

[dahemac]

Another test to show that a problem involving the SG Bus Stops and the RTMT 3.6 update and the DATs with the same names in these has become a cause of Prop Pox in this city. It seems like I can make other changes to the city without causing pox. For instance, I installed and replaced a lot of Avenue GLR and FLUPs without causing pox. However if I mess with any SG Bus Stop, since the RTMT 3.6 update was installed, then BOOM! Prop pox explosion.

The Unpoxed City with a SG Bus Stop without its shelter. The missing shelter was caused when SG_BusStopXX.dats were replaced.

Prop pox free city
252135 props found in city
Some infos about the props:
-0 disabled props found in city
-1337 tracking props found in city
-33682 timed over year props found in city
-16046 dayly timed props found in city
-49729 conditional props found in city
-From what kind of data :
--9 props alone
--241649 props from lot
--10458 props from T21

I opened the unpoxed city bulldozed one SG Bus Stop then saved. This caused pox.

Prop poxed city !!!
Buffer corruption occurs around offset 0x01412AC8
233903 props found in city
Some infos about the props:
-0 disabled props found in city
-1280 tracking props found in city
-27434 timed over year props found in city
-14380 dayly timed props found in city
-41815 conditional props found in city
-From what kind of data :
--5 props alone
--223883 props from lot
--9996 props from T21

I then reopened the original unpoxed city and then resaved it without making any deliberate changes. This caused no pox.

Prop pox free city
252137 props found in city
Some infos about the props:
-0 disabled props found in city
-1338 tracking props found in city
-33682 timed over year props found in city
-16046 dayly timed props found in city
-49729 conditional props found in city
-From what kind of data :
--9 props alone
--241650 props from lot
--10458 props from T21

[FrankU]

Before we forget Finaltable, here's some answer.

The Peg-etc.dat file is part of Pegasus beach set. It is not on the LEX nor on the LEX-disk. You can find it on his own site (simpeg.com) or on the STEX (simtropolis.com). I advise you to just not use the beach set and this file. It is a dependency file belonging to the beach set.
Sorry, I forgot the exact name of the set, but it is a set with beachside lots. You can perfectly do without.

Pityfully Peg saw the identification of solely his file as a cause of prop pox as a personal attack. Which was not the case. Anyway, he is not working together with the BSC people and the people from SC4Devotion.
For his work, which is undoubtedly excellent, you best visit his own site. But keep your hands off the beach set file!

[z]

Another test to show that a problem involving the SG Bus Stops and the RTMT 3.6 update and the DATs with the same names in these has become a cause of Prop Pox in this city.

I recall that the first release of RTMT v3.60 had a problem when you used SG's bus stops in the same city as the RTMT version of them, although this did not result in the prop pox.  This problem was fixed fairly quickly, though.  Is your version of RTMT v3.60 up to date?

[dahemac]

I downloaded the RTMT from of the LEX 2011/03/20. I have been using RTMT 3.5 with SG Busstops for a long time with no problem.
Below is a screen shot of the RTMT folder in my plugins. Red files are ones I was not sure about after I went through the installation.
At the moment I have only one set of SG_BusStopXX.dat in my simgoober folder.

[finaltable]

Before we forget Finaltable, here's some answer.

The Peg-etc.dat file is part of Pegasus beach set. It is not on the LEX nor on the LEX-disk. You can find it on his own site (simpeg.com) or on the STEX (simtropolis.com). I advise you to just not use the beach set and this file. It is a dependency file belonging to the beach set.
Sorry, I forgot the exact name of the set, but it is a set with beachside lots. You can perfectly do without.

Pityfully Peg saw the identification of solely his file as a cause of prop pox as a personal attack. Which was not the case. Anyway, he is not working together with the BSC people and the people from SC4Devotion.
For his work, which is undoubtedly excellent, you best visit his own site. But keep your hands off the beach set file!

Thanks Frank!  You answered every question I had, perfect.  Great answer and perfect explanation.  It's to bad the way things ended. 

[dahemac]

Maybe PEG will feel better knowing that I have Prop Pox without his PEG_OWW2_BDK_RESOURCE.DAT.

[finaltable]

I'm sure PEG would feel better, however I doubt it would do anything to mend old wounds.  Your case seems special in a sense you have no idea what is causing it.  Also from what I gather, it is doing something that people haven't seen it do before? No? 

What is RTMT?

[dahemac]

RTMT is the Road Top Mass Transit. It is the best thing since the invention of, well, transit.

[finaltable]

Do you have a link to this RTMT?  I tried on the LEX but it could be endless searching.  Also we don't know if it is the RTMT, SimGoobers bus stop, or either one of the two causing the POX problem?

[dahemac]

If you search for RTMT in the search field on the left of the page it will take you to the RTMT. You could also use advanced search and look for things created by z.

My pox was not caused by any particular fault in either RTMT or SG BusStops. I think it is a version control problem with the model files and a confused installation. As far as I know, anything you get of the LEX will NOT inherently cause Prop Pox.

My hope is that looking at this instance of Prop Pox which does not conform to the current understanding, might help solve the problem.