A Map of the Netherlands (In progress)

[cogeo]

And Cogeo.... please consider our Dutch feelings. Playing a flat area is what we are supposed to do in this country. We do it since 2500 years.

As you can tell of the name, the land is low and basicly flat...
If you think that's boring, then don't use this map, and centrainly don't go on holiday in the Netherlands, Belgium or Luxemburg.

@FrankU & brechtje: We all know that the land in the Netherlands is flat. No offense, and nothing wrong with this, of course. I was just talking about the map. It will have some 80 almost totally flat city tiles (there are many medium- and small-sized ones too), some 20 or so will have a river or a canal, and another 20 will be on the seashore. Isn't this really repetitive? Not sure if players will have the patience to develop all these tiles, and I think it's quite expected that it will turn really boring at some point, as the map basically has cities of three styles/patterns. Making a smaller map, will make it easier and more interesting to play.

I don't want to work with (easier) methods.

Making a map out of DEM data isn't an "easy" job at all, it's actually a delicate and often troublesome task. Many options to set and a lot of adjustments to make. And things don't always turn good, data are sometimes poor or missing, you have to overcome the difficulty of water level elevation (not necessarily equal to the sea level), you have no bathymetric data (or you can't combine them with the elevation ones because they are from a different provider and don't coincide) etc etc. Fianlly you need to make local corrections and find ad-hoc solutions to certain problems. So, it's a less "manual" work, but not an "easy" one.

... so off course i won't make mountains on this map, 'cause it's not realistic.

I read my post again, just to make sure that I didn't make any mistake. I didn't ever suggest adding mountains, did I? And as I clamor for accuracy, I would have not made such a suggestion anyway.

I don't want to work with (easier) methods...
...doing it alone, without DEM (or other data)...
If you think that's boring, then don't use this map...
...then don't download it....
I can't scale it down, because i don't know how to do it...
and i'm not going to begin from scrap...
and i won't start over...

Sorry, but I don't understand this stance. I just responded to your call in the 2nd line of your 1st post ("Please tell me what you think of it")... Also posted my concerns about big maps. If you don't want to listen to what others think, then why start a preview/discussion thread at all? Would you really be willing to take into account any of the suggestions posted here (and not just by me)? It would be far less time consuming to just present the map to the community when it's ready; some members will like it, some others not. Asking the members to comment, and then saying I don't do this and I don't do that, makes little sense, imho.

This couldn't be accurately scaled, I would have at most made a plain with a river, and maybe some mountain in the background (for the scenery), but in no case a region like that.

And you'll have to search forever if you want to find a place in the Netherlands were you can find a plain with a river and a mountain the the background.

I was referring to MY map, stating that if the map was accurately scaled, it would not be possible to include all this region, but instead an area no bigger than a plain with a river in the middle and maybe a mountain in the background (well, don't stick to the wording), and nothing more than that, so explaining why I had to use a larger than real scale. Didn't imply necessarily including such features in ANY map, neither suggested adding these to YOUR map. Wasn't this clear enough?

[brechtje]

[@FrankU & brechtje: We all know that the land in the Netherlands is flat. No offense, and nothing wrong with this, of course. I was just talking about the map. It will have some 80 almost totally flat city tiles (there are many medium- and small-sized ones too), some 20 or so will have a river or a canal, and another 20 will be on the seashore. Isn't this really repetitive? Not sure if players will have the patience to develop all these tiles, and I think it's quite expected that it will turn really boring at some point, as the map basically has cities of three styles/patterns. Making a smaller map, will make it easier and more interesting to play.

forgive me then. I thought that you referred to the land itself. Well, there will be some heights (Hoge Veluwe and Limburg for example). But most is indeed flat. This can be repetitive for some, i'm sure, but that is how the map will be. But as I said before. It's quite possible that i'll make regions from Netherlands and Flanders after this, so it's no that big or repetitive.

Making a map out of DEM data isn't an "easy" job at all, it's actually a delicate and often troublesome task. Many options to set and a lot of adjustments to make. And things don't always turn good, data are sometimes poor or missing, you have to overcome the difficulty of water level elevation (not necessarily equal to the sea level), you have no bathymetric data (or you can't combine them with the elevation ones because they are from a different provider and don't coincide) etc etc. Fianlly you need to make local corrections and find ad-hoc solutions to certain problems. So, it's a less "manual" work, but not an "easy" one.

Well, i wasn't sure what DEM data was. I thought that is was just copying a map, and that's it. But nontheless i'm making it manually, working with an atlas, bing maps, and lots of different charts of the Netherlands. That's how i make the most fun for me.

I'm glad that you responded, and i'll take the hints that you've given me into account for other maps in the future about how big it should be. but now i've already put too much effort in it to start from zero.

[brechtje]

Hello all, I've been busy again working on the map. You can clearly see the evolution, and the map begins to be more and more recogniseable.



Made the isle of Texel smaller (as requested), and made the isle of Vlieland and Noorderhaaks.



Completed North - Holland (with the Noordzeekanaal), Flevoland (the giant isle in the center), and most of the Noord-Oost polder. I also included the isle of Terschelling and Richel at the Waddeneilanden up north.



Added the Isle of Ameland at the Waddeneilanden, completed the Noord-Oost polder, and most of the coast of Friesland. The Afsluitdijk is also ready. The Ijselmeer, Ketelmeer (with the Ijseloog in the centre) and the Zwarte Meer are done too. I also added the isle of Marken west of the inland coast of North - Holland, and the Wieringermeer north.

That's all for today. There's still a lot of work to be done. Especially the geology the Netherlands, and more lakes and rivers. If anybody knows a detailled (sorry for this dutch word, but in don't know it's english equivalent) reliëfkaart that i can use, i would be very grateful.

[WC_EEND]

that's looking rather excellent brechtje. I believe the word you're looking for is "height map"

Xander

[kelis]

Looks Good mate, I like see how the map is grow and is taking shape   

Great job

[FrankU]

Hi Brechtje,

Great work! The map is really growing well.
One remark though: I would remove the dikes between the old land and Flevoland. These are bridges in real life and perfect locations for game bridges.

Otherwise: it is hard for you to choose wether a canal or lake should be added as game water or afterwards with ploppable water, I guess. I was thinking about that because of the Noord-Hollands kanaal and the Alkmaarder and Uitgeester meer, the Vinkeveense Plassen etc....
I guess a lot of those will be added by ourselves with ploppable water. What do you think? What is your way of working?

[Getron]

Hoi Brechtje,

Nice map, but may I ask if Zuid-Limburg will be on it. With this map I have the feeling it will end close to Maasiek-Roermond line.

Getron.

[FrankU]

Hi Getron,

Zuid Limburg is a kind of a problem to all of those who don't want to use more space or paper than is absolutely neccessary. I fear Brechtje is going to do what most cartographers do when they make a paper atlas of the Netherlands: cut off Zuid Limburg and plunge it into the Noordzee or an unused part of Belgium.... 

[brechtje]

Hi Brechtje,

Great work! The map is really growing well.
One remark though: I would remove the dikes between the old land and Flevoland. These are bridges in real life and perfect locations for game bridges.

Otherwise: it is hard for you to choose wether a canal or lake should be added as game water or afterwards with ploppable water, I guess. I was thinking about that because of the Noord-Hollands kanaal and the Alkmaarder and Uitgeester meer, the Vinkeveense Plassen etc....
I guess a lot of those will be added by ourselves with ploppable water. What do you think? What is your way of working?

About the dikes: I'll have to research on that. some are indeed bridges, but some are locks, and I wanted to use the dikes for locks.
About the lakes: I wanted the greatest lakes (and rivers and canals) to be made in the map. The smaller ones can be added by the players with ploppable water. I can make different versions of the map: one with lakes, and one without?

Hoi Brechtje,

Nice map, but may I ask if Zuid-Limburg will be on it. With this map I have the feeling it will end close to Maasiek-Roermond line.

Getron.

Well, you are correct. The most southern part of Dutch Limburg is missing. It will be cut of, and not to be created in this map. Rest assured. I've the intention to make a map of belgium too, and there you'll find your precious limburg .

[Swordmaster]

And Cogeo.... please consider our Dutch feelings. Playing a flat area is what we are supposed to do in this country. We do it since 2500 years.

Yes. Flat maps rule! Mountains are easy 

I like this map, because I can locate my home on it. 
Are you going to terraform the port areas in advance (Rotterdam, Amsterdam, and the parts of Antwerp that are on the map)?

[WC_EEND]

Small detail I just noticed: the Gent-Terneuzen Channel seems to be missing.

Xander

[brechtje]

@Swordmaster: I'm thinking of putting the Maaslandvlakte area at the Port of Rotterdam (But without the docks), but i won't put any of the other harbours in this map so that the players can choose if they want to have a horbour there or not.

@WC_eend: I know the Terneuzen canal is missing. That's because Gent isn't on this map, so the canal is not really necessary. But you can still make it with plopable water .

[WC_EEND]

ah ok, I just figured since it also runs through the Netherlands, it was somehow meant to go on there as well.

Based on a rough guess, I'd say the map runs until a bit below Zelzate :p

[brechtje]

So I've the inland harbour of Gent, but not Gent itself . Then i don't prefer to make the canal in the map, but give the choise to the player himself .

[brechtje]

Terrible news! I've recently bought a new pc with win7 home premium 64-bits. But i can't use the terraformer anymore now. can someone help me with this issue?

This is the error that i get:

   
ImportError: DLL load failed: De parameter is onjuist.

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "SC4Terraformer.py", line 4, in ?
  File "SC4TerraformerApp.pyo", line 3, in ?
   
ImportError: DLL load failed: Kan opgegeven module niet vinden.
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "SC4Terraformer.py", line 4, in ?
  File "SC4TerraformerApp.pyo", line 76, in ?
   
  File "datReader.pyo", line 8, in ?
   
  File "Numeric.pyo", line 91, in ?
   
ImportError: DLL load failed: De parameter is onjuist.

[brechtje]

Somebody? I'm getting quite desperate. I've come too far to quit the project now... 

[FrankU]

Hi Brechtje,

Maybe you ask this question in a forum that's about the Terraformer or about Win7 issues.

I fear though that they will tell you that Terraformer does not work with Win7 at all, or at least not with Win7 with the Service pack 1 installed.
I am not sure though...

I do hope I am not correct or that you still have your old computer, because your map was getting better every day.

[brechtje]

Greetings,

I'm sorry that i haven't been updating this thread. Terraformer wasn't working on my new computer, but for some strange reason it does work now. Unfortunately the old map is gone, so i have to start a new one. Are there any tips on how to start? Especialy the size of the map and the size of the towns.

[FrankU]

Hi Brechtje,

A bad message together with a good one.

I am happy your Terraformer works finally. Pity that you lost the files of the map. It was getting beautiful.
I have no experience with Terraformer and making realistic maps, so I cannot be of any help in that respect.

Good luck!

Frank

[mave94]

It's a pity you lost your map. I don't have any mapping experience, too, but maybe I can give you a tip/useful site.
Have you already looked in your Bosatlas? On GB53 36 you can see a very detailed height map of the Netherlands. It would be hard to scan that and use it for making maps. So, you can go to the site where the data is from: http://www.ahn.nl/viewer It has so much details that you can even see the dikes. I have no idea how to use that for making a map.
I hope that it would be useful.

-Matthijs