CityMania

[Nique]

I'm having a hard time by including the right fonts. Allmost 17 hours have past... i just created a whole new font set

And, i have been thinking about the 2.5D engine. We can still make lots of stuff 3d. But static objects (like buildings) should be 2d sprites that face the user's camera at four angles. The only thing annoying about that is that we just have to do it with 4 angles...

Cars, airplanes.. objects that move can be rendered in full 3d i guess?

Dialog title now with correct fonts

[Nique]

Button teaser

It's not centered yet, because i didn't pass the dialog box coordinates to the button element. Width of the button can also be set.

Next:
- Creating drawing a cursor
- Making hover/click events methods for this button type.


PS: I'm replying on myself so people can see there is an update. (if i edit my latest post, people who have seen that post before will not know if there is a update). Don't worry, posts in this section of the forum aren't count

[Djohaal]

  I'm almost crying here.. this is a dream come true... 

Here are some of my thoughts:

1: KEEP THE GRID (or at least make it optional)

Yes some people will bash me by saying that, however after playing cities XL and cityLife, I'm convinced the grid matrix is a friend, not a foe. One of simcity's most masterful gameplay components was the grid itself. We have a constant feedback between the idea of a city you want to make and what the game (mainly nowadays, jsut the grid) will allow you to make. I know many players build only-plop cities, it does take the simulation out of the account, but why is it still so fun? You have to constantly work around the grid to be able to build what you want.

One idea however, would be of breaking up the grid in triangles, so that true diagonal roads would occupy the proper area. Of course we can stick with squares and fix up the diagonal errors with smart texture programming.

2: Regions

I really think that the region concept should be kept, as you stated after a certain size, performance starts to degrade exponentially. It is the game becoming too much for a normal computer to handle. One way of potentially extending the cities to a limitless size is to make a x64 port of the game. (Of course we'll eventually need a 64 bits simcity to handle all the custom content....)
Another thing is to start thinking ahead on how to make this thing support multiple threads, then simicty would really fly.

3: For zones, perhaps we might just steal the proper Mass Placement Tool monte cristo promised us (but didn't fulfill their promise) allowing for mixed zone development and the such.

4: perhaps another view could be implmented for buildings, a "top" view to allow satellite images. Of course this would make all the content made before the implementation uncompatible...

Anyways keep up the master work. I wish I knew any bonkers about coding to help out with the project... 

[KoV Liberty]

Will this be like the old SC4 with like a new 3D twist to it? This is very interesting... Also will we be able to use like the "grid" style from SC4 and use old buildings from the original game? Also will we be able to transfer old regions into the new one? I really don't want this to end up like Cities XL or City Life. Basically those games are just waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too complex.

[j-dub]

If possible, maybe a on/off grid that can be 90 and 45 degrees ? Having a grid that was + was great, but to see a grid that is x over + would be awesome. The difference is, we could use the grid as a measuring device, but not be restricted to it.                         

[mrdazza_460]

I agree with djohaal.  The grid would have to stay, but you should be able to places a road from one point of the gird to anther point of the grid so you have 3 to 4 different angles of roads E.g. if you have a 3D program uses the snap function; it will only allow you to make a line that snaps with the corners of the grid.
Also the building should also snap to the angles of the roads, rather then just be the way they are in SC4, a easy way to do this is you just add some more camera angles when rendering the building for the game.(that's if you stay with 2.5D)


Nique : jusy PM me or something if you wont me to help with the modeling.

[Nique]

I'm almost crying here.. this is a dream come true... 

Here are some of my thoughts:

1: KEEP THE GRID (or at least make it optional)

Yes some people will bash me by saying that, however after playing cities XL and cityLife, I'm convinced the grid matrix is a friend, not a foe. One of simcity's most masterful gameplay components was the grid itself. We have a constant feedback between the idea of a city you want to make and what the game (mainly nowadays, jsut the grid) will allow you to make. I know many players build only-plop cities, it does take the simulation out of the account, but why is it still so fun? You have to constantly work around the grid to be able to build what you want.

One idea however, would be of breaking up the grid in triangles, so that true diagonal roads would occupy the proper area. Of course we can stick with squares and fix up the diagonal errors with smart texture programming.

2: Regions

I really think that the region concept should be kept, as you stated after a certain size, performance starts to degrade exponentially. It is the game becoming too much for a normal computer to handle. One way of potentially extending the cities to a limitless size is to make a x64 port of the game. (Of course we'll eventually need a 64 bits simcity to handle all the custom content....)
Another thing is to start thinking ahead on how to make this thing support multiple threads, then simicty would really fly.

3: For zones, perhaps we might just steal the proper Mass Placement Tool monte cristo promised us (but didn't fulfill their promise) allowing for mixed zone development and the such.

4: perhaps another view could be implmented for buildings, a "top" view to allow satellite images. Of course this would make all the content made before the implementation uncompatible...

I agree, i love the grid also. Maybe we can extend the profit of a grid by, indeed making it finer. It's just a matter of 'points' and steps + drawing lines between them for visibility. The Mass placement tool of monte cristo is just... well i dont know. To complex and there where still individual buildings. It was just like simcity 1 in a 3d world, without a grid. Naah, City building games should focus on the simulation. 3d is fun but that's it. We need to spare as much we can for simulation details while playing the game should be acceptable from graphical point of view. 2d and 32 million colors should be enough to create very very realistic cities . I have no idea about how to do this.. making the grid better.

Think about dykes (and bridge slopes). How should the terrain behave? The more point's we create on the terrain, the more complex the game will be, the less resources we have available for creating the actual city simulation.

I was thinking about a Simcity 4 clone, with 'all' the great things + our own solutions to fix the anoying ones. (think about flipping the diagonal on the terrain, some pages ago). One of the other things i was working out on (paper).. was traffic simulation expansions. What about clicking on a crossing between roads. And then you get a options window to make this crossing unique. You can set turning lanes on / off, how many turning lanes, should there be a crosswalk over it, with or without traffic lights? One way or .. well you name it! Think about the possibilities. No more restrictions because of "we have no source code" .

If possible, maybe a on/off grid that can be 90 and 45 degrees ? Having a grid that was + was great, but to see a grid that is x over + would be awesome. The difference is, we could use the grid as a measuring device, but not be restricted to it.                         

See above, i don't know how to implant this but there should be a good solution. One of them is making objects like roads fully 3d.

Will this be like the old SC4 with like a new 3D twist to it? This is very interesting... Also will we be able to use like the "grid" style from SC4 and use old buildings from the original game? Also will we be able to transfer old regions into the new one? I really don't want this to end up like Cities XL or City Life. Basically those games are just waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too complex.

Well i can not take the original buildings Maxis Made, but we can make our own. If everyone still has their models, we can make a base package for the game with them. Credits will be set inside the game for those modelers.. as then, you are part of the team.

I agree with djohaal.  The grid would have to stay, but you should be able to places a road from one point of the gird to anther point of the grid so you have 3 to 4 different angles of roads E.g. if you have a 3D program uses the snap function; it will only allow you to make a line that snaps with the corners of the grid.
Also the building should also snap to the angles of the roads, rather then just be the way they are in SC4, a easy way to do this is you just add some more camera angles when rendering the building for the game.(that's if you stay with 2.5D)


Nique : jusy PM me or something if you wont me to help with the modeling.

Modeling is some stages away as i'm working alone right now and there is much to do before we come there, but i will put you on the list thank you! About the angles, i have think about that, but the problem here is that it would take more time and space to prerender buildings if we make 8 angles. I have no idea what to do yet

[Nique]

XNA is great but i think i need to step to directX instead.

If possible, maybe a on/off grid that can be 90 and 45 degrees ? Having a grid that was + was great, but to see a grid that is x over + would be awesome. The difference is, we could use the grid as a measuring device, but not be restricted to it.                         

I quote you again because i was just thinking..

Just a theory
A tile is now 2 triangles, so there is one line already. The only thing we need to do is create 4 triangles instead of 2, per tile..


(green = diagonal flip for hills) We shouldn't let the terrain use the center point of the tile to influence the terrain because then buildings could look very weird on 'hole tiles'. On the right: #3 and #4 need to work together like if it is one triangle (like #2 on the left)

Even when the right one looks more complex, it's just adding 1 extra point.. because the triangles share the same points.



The green grid is there just for helping (snap points)



Example

But i dont think this works
I'm not sure about how to do this.

[KoV Liberty]

Well I know some people have been very inactive so that might work or might not.

[JoeST]

Interesting idea, the problem comes when you have the diagonal jagged edges, unless you split the grid into triangles instead of squares made with 2triangles.

And I would suggest OpenGL rather than DirectX.

Joe

[gottago]

I've been lurking on this thread and must say Nique your creativity and enthusiasm for this project are infectious, and you efforts to date quite fascinating.

I've got zilch in the way of programming savvy to offer, unfortunately, but (also unfortunately?) some ideas/opinions  (who doesn't?)

I think your idea to redo an open-source version of the SC4 game engine is a great one. Like Windows OSs, it should be backwards compatible so that the best community work of the past 5 years is not lost. This will bring a lot of support, and make the programming work easier. Don't reinvent the wheel; revolutions are messy things that often end badly.  The community is hungering for gameplay upgrades but is stymied by the proprietary game engine.

SC4 is still thriving and Cities XL, from what I've seen and read, will not be its replacement as the last word in city-building games. But SC4 is hindered by increasingly tedious and difficult work-arounds due to the source code problem. Keep the grid, but enlarge it to accommodate real diagonals. Liberate the menus, liberate drag'n'drop transport, liberate water, add a sandbox function, allow for on-the-fly modding of RCI variables, etc., and you've already gone a huge way towards keeping SC4 alive and kicking for another 6 years. The modders will have a field day and the game will be given new youth and vigour.

Good luck with this and don't get discouraged--if you can build a team like the NAM, and keep focused on evolution, not revolution, you might just pull this off. 

[Nique]

Interesting idea, the problem comes when you have the diagonal jagged edges, unless you split the grid into triangles instead of squares made with 2triangles.

And I would suggest OpenGL rather than DirectX.

Joe

Haha, i know why u want OpenGL (it's a must for unix system) 
I want openGL too, but i have no experience with C++

But! i never quit before i've seen it. So the next few days i will probably spending on learning more about openGL (and c++ programming).
I don't think it's that different from C#.

I've been lurking on this thread and must say Nique your creativity and enthusiasm for this project are infectious, and you efforts to date quite fascinating.

I've got zilch in the way of programming savvy to offer, unfortunately, but (also unfortunately?) some ideas/opinions  (who doesn't?)

I think your idea to redo an open-source version of the SC4 game engine is a great one. Like Windows OSs, it should be backwards compatible so that the best community work of the past 5 years is not lost. This will bring a lot of support, and make the programming work easier. Don't reinvent the wheel; revolutions are messy things that often end badly.  The community is hungering for gameplay upgrades but is stymied by the proprietary game engine.

SC4 is still thriving and Cities XL, from what I've seen and read, will not be its replacement as the last word in city-building games. But SC4 is hindered by increasingly tedious and difficult work-arounds due to the source code problem. Keep the grid, but enlarge it to accommodate real diagonals. Liberate the menus, liberate drag'n'drop transport, liberate water, add a sandbox function, allow for on-the-fly modding of RCI variables, etc., and you've already gone a huge way towards keeping SC4 alive and kicking for another 6 years. The modders will have a field day and the game will be given new youth and vigour.

Good luck with this and don't get discouraged--if you can build a team like the NAM, and keep focused on evolution, not revolution, you might just pull this off. 

I have thought about all your ideas  . The only thing that's stopping me (for a while) is to think and brainstorm "How to do it" 

I don't know if it is posible to import sc4 data directly into this game. I don't know the game sc4 game structure. We also have no rights to copy the original game content.

[Nique]

What about MONO (Creating .NET C# Applications for Linux)

[mrdazza_460]

We also have no rights to copy the original game content

as long as you make it free they cant really do much about it, its just anther "mod"

I think you maybe over complicating things with you grid set up with all theses points  maybe just allow the road to snap to any one whole side of square or the inner diamond in the square on the grid, you will still get the angles required on your road. But there would be less hassle with points because the game already knows the length from point to point, instead you are using a line, or a edge or a square    

And it may also make it easier to make intersections and stuff like that


Also you said earlier that you will be making the game full 3D, but the buildings 2D, won't you get distorted views of your buildings and textures when playing the game, they will never look like they are in perspective, because the building where rendered with a fixed camera angle, and the game is not. (if you know what I mean)  

Pleases also don't take anything I say as criticism, I thing you are doing a grate job and I wish I had the knowledge to do what you are doing.                    

[Nique]

even if our game is free, we are not allowed to use it.. sorry but thats the law . What we can use instead, is the custom content idea and raw files the plugin used, its just a matter of 're-rendering'.

We can not use simcity plugins because i have no idea how these files are structured and imported by the game. I have no information about the game. All i can do is 'look' to the game and guess how they've done it. There is no way i can make a program that's an exact copy of Simcity 4. So there is no compatability between the two.. i can't help it.

But what we can do, is render all the buildings (if people still have their models in raw 3d formats) but now with the settings of CityMania (lightning.. and so on).

About the complexity grid stuff, i'm not even in that stage (i was just thinking loudly) as i'm reviewing the current game status. I've hold it for a moment because: do we want it to be cross-platform.. and how can we achieve that? It's easy to say to go openGL but the problem here is that there is not much support for openGL with use of C#... and C# is the language i code in .

As you can read in the post above i found something that could solve this problem.

Mono.

Mono supports all known openGL extensions and can compile cross-platform

[JoeST]

I do not believe your even allowed to use the same file format, due to that being copyrighted too.

And yeah, I could install mono. I might try at the weekend

And I have a C# OpenGL wrapping class/dll if you want to try that.

Its possible (on the plugins front) that we can decompile the current 'models' into full 3d. You would loose all the more-than-zoom-5 detail.

Joe

[Nique]

Zoom 5 detail was just blob .. lets keep it on 4

Well i could try that *.dll but i need some guides with it. (i'm searching the web for more solutions)

[Jonathan]

you could not get the current SC4 models into full 3D, they are just boxes with images applied to them to give the effect of 3D. If you want to use the models from SC4 (though as people have said some conversion from S3D to a different format is needed) you'd have to keep the game at 2.5D with the exact camera angles and hieghts as SC4.

Jonathan

[j-dub]

Yes Nique, that is exactly what I was thinking with a guiding grid.

The other thing, SC4 was restricted to lots, but as in er! -should I say, SimCity Societies you could place props alone, without buildings, and with out being restricted to lots. As for the roads, the last SC which was on the Nintendo Wii, allowed free form, curvy roads. How that would be rendered in 3D, like the City Life series, does seem tough. That seems to just get drawn without grid restriction, but when there is a building, you are prohibited from making the road go over that. I liked this, because when this was not an option in SC4, it made it tough. So most of the time, I had to plop commercial and industrial buildings. In Societies, I think there might have been the option to plop even the houses, instead of just waiting for them to grow. Implementation of this here, on the other hand, well, wish you luck.

[Nique]

you could not get the current SC4 models into full 3D, they are just boxes with images applied to them to give the effect of 3D. If you want to use the models from SC4 (though as people have said some conversion from S3D to a different format is needed) you'd have to keep the game at 2.5D with the exact camera angles and hieghts as SC4.

Jonathan

Indeed, you are right. But a few sc4 models are full 3d

you could not get the current SC4 models into full 3D, they are just boxes with images applied to them to give the effect of 3D. If you want to use the models from SC4 (though as people have said some conversion from S3D to a different format is needed) you'd have to keep the game at 2.5D with the exact camera angles and heights as SC4.

Jonathan

I think, plopping houses is just weird. In fact, everything should be growable, as in real life. Maybe there could be add a zone/neighborhood planning mode to plan a certain zoned area. (then you can decide where and what houses should grow there)