NAM Traffic Simulator and Data View Help

[z]

I'm still a bit confused by your reply.  The commute time limits are normally never visible during game play, so on what basis are you saying that they revert to the default?  There's also no real way for that to happen that I know of, as once you load Simulator Z, the default settings are simply erased.

The only thing the user can normally see about the commute times is the Commute Time Graph, though it doesn't show any limits.  This graph is notoriously inaccurate due to a bug in the game.  I've made it about as accurate as possible in Simulator Z, but it should never be relied upon.

To me, it sounds like a lot of your problem is related to the following:

3. The sim (z) was working fine up until I loaded one particular city and every thing has gone to dogs (stopped working) sense then.

This would seem to say that that city got corrupted in some way (unrelated to the simulator), and that corruption is the source of your problems.  Does this abandonment problem happen in other cities?

Then there's this:

4. After Reinstalling, the NAM simulators worked as normal until I clicked on the utilities button (to be specific) in the mayor menu, the game sputtered (froze) for a second and then it reverted the default times.

Is this in your corrupted city, or in all cities?  Again, this does not sound like a traffic simulator problem.  It's possible that you have an incompatible mod, or some other problem with your plugins.  Try removing everything except the NAM from your plugins, and then build a new city in a new region and see if you have any problems.  I doubt that you will.  If this is the case, you'll have to find the plugins that are causing your problems; older game mods are the ones most likely to be responsible.  Be especially sure that you don't have any that are labeled as being not compatible with the NAM.

Finally, I'm assuming that you're using either the Rush Hour or Deluxe version of SC4.  These are required to use the NAM.

[SC4BOY]

Doesn't hurt if you've applied all the EA patches and updates too..

[woodb3kmaster]

To avoid the continued hijacking of the traffic simulator poll thread, I'm continuing discussion of the following problem over here, as you asked:

Also, I want to add my own $0.02 about getting plagues of no-job zots in certain neighborhoods. I've been experiencing this very problem in one of my cities - things are fine for a few months, then BAM! Every house in the new subdivision has a zot hovering over it like some dark cloud of doom and anguish, if you know what I mean. Unfortunately, in my case the zots usually stick around long enough to cause mass abandonment (although it's not immediately obvious since I use a no-dilapidation mod). Unlike the situation you described, though, these new neighborhoods have more than one connection to the rest of town, although these connections all have RTMT bus stops on them and cross railroads, IIRC.

Your recommendation was to remove the no-dilapidation and less-abandonment mods I had been using, which I have done. However, I still have parts of certain cities that go through cyclical mass-abandonments. You also said that you didn't think the RTMT stops were the cause of this problem, but that still leaves the question of whether at-grade railroad crossings would cause this. I have a few scattered no-job zots in many of my large cities, but the only areas that go through these mass abandonments are typically across railroads from any available jobs.

For thoroughness' sake, I'll mention that I'm using Simulator Z Medium. Your help will be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

EDIT: The mods I took out are bones1's Less Abandonment mod and RalphaelNinja's Abandonment Dilapidation Modd 1.2. These may or may not conflict with each other or the NAM, but I imagine you know if they do.

EDIT 2: After playing the city where this "zot plague" is most noticeable for the first time since removing the aforementioned mods, I can say with great certainty that railroad crossings are not the culprit in this mystery, as the plague has spread to include neighborhoods that aren't isolated by railroads. Unfortunately, now that those mods are out of my plugins folder, I now have large blackened areas of town, revealing the true extent of this plague.

EDIT 3: During my latest gaming session, all the no-job zots disappeared. All of them. Gone. I thought that maybe the tastyzots cheat had somehow been toggled on, but I was able to find a few no-road-connection zots, so that wasn't the case. I haven't changed traffic simulators or (un)installed any mods since removing the dilapidation/abandonment mods, so this appears to be a quirk of the game. I've had this happen before in another city in the same region, but that was when I was using Simulator A. Curiouser and curiouser...

[SC4BOY]

I have a similar question.. and I'm not saying it is the z simulator since I recall i had similar problems years ago without CAM and without z-sim (I'm using high if that matters). The city is about 180k C, 110k R and 50k I. If I just sit and watch , the C population will cycle every 6 months (ie 3 months up and 3 months down) from about 175k to 210k C causing naturally continual dilapition/renewal processes. I and R are steady to slightly growing. Demand is mid to high in all except farming (0), R$$$ (-1000) and dirty industry (-2000) which are about where I want these at this point.

I recall that in the old SC3000 a natural cycle was overlaid on the demand, but RippleJet said he doesn't think this exists for SC4. Any thoughts on why this cycle would exist?

Oh I guess I should mention that I have the World Trade Center thing in this city which has a CO$$$ capacity of 52000 or so.. this is mostly where the cycle is being absorbed as it goes from about 17k (dilapidated looking but never abandoned so far) to about 48k during each cycle

[z]

First of all, my apologies for not getting back to woodb3kmaster sooner - it's been a busy week, and I wasn't quite sure what the problem was.  But waiting may have been the best course here, as from the start this did not seem to be a traffic simulator problem, and with waiting, it went away.  I don't think it's a coincidence that this happened after you took out those two mods.  My best guess here is that those mods were causing your problems, and the benefits of removing them just took a while to percolate through your city.

I have a similar question.. and I'm not saying it is the z simulator since I recall i had similar problems years ago without CAM and without z-sim (I'm using high if that matters). The city is about 180k C, 110k R and 50k I. If I just sit and watch , the C population will cycle every 6 months (ie 3 months up and 3 months down) from about 175k to 210k C causing naturally continual dilapition/renewal processes. I and R are steady to slightly growing. Demand is mid to high in all except farming (0), R$$$ (-1000) and dirty industry (-2000) which are about where I want these at this point.

When I was running the CAM traffic simulator (and later, predecessors to Simulator Z) in my favorite test city, the Near South Side of Chicago, I experienced similar boom-and-bust cycles.  There was a lot of commercial demand not too far away, so the Sims would start building huge residentials like crazy.  But the traffic simulator wasn't smart enough to route the Sims to them properly, so the Sims couldn't get jobs, and the residentials were abandoned.  This cycle would happen repeatedly until I improved the traffic simulator to the point where the Sims could all get to the jobs.  Now, finally, everything is stable there, with the huge residentials standing and continuously occupied.

I recall that in the old SC3000 a natural cycle was overlaid on the demand, but RippleJet said he doesn't think this exists for SC4. Any thoughts on why this cycle would exist?

Yes, I remember that cycle in SC3K well, and I agree with RippleJet that it doesn't appear to exist in SC4.  However, there are well-documented cycles that can be triggered by demand levels in neighboring cities; the Prima guide goes into these a lot.  These cycles tend to happen when you play only one city for a long time, and don't let its neighbors grow.  Rotating play among cities is the best way to minimize this effect.

Oh I guess I should mention that I have the World Trade Center thing in this city which has a CO$$$ capacity of 52000 or so.. this is mostly where the cycle is being absorbed as it goes from about 17k (dilapidated looking but never abandoned so far) to about 48k during each cycle

Oh yes, you certainly should mention that!    Having huge commercial buildings in a small city can easily destabilize things.  My guess is that there's a lot of residential demand due to the WTC, so the Sims build a lot trying to fulfill it.  But for various reasons unique to your city, the mix of Sims who move into your city is not identical to what that building requires for workers.  So enough Sims remain unemployed that housing becomes abandoned.  Yet that building still needs workers, so the Sims start building again...  That's my guess; RippleJet would probably know a lot more, and seeing the details of your city's demand would reveal a lot.  But I think I've got the basic idea right here.  You could always try saving a copy of your city, then demolishing the WTC and see what happens.  My guess is that things will settle down then.  In any case, this is not a traffic simulator problem.

[SC4BOY]

There was a lot of commercial demand not too far away, so the Sims would start building huge residentials like crazy.  ... route the Sims to them properly, so the Sims couldn't get jobs, and the residentials were abandoned.  This cycle would happen repeatedly until I improved the traffic simulator to the point where the Sims could all get to the jobs.  Now, finally, everything is stable there, with the huge residentials standing and continuously occupied.

Actually (thought I made it clear.. sorry) it is PURELY a C cycle..in fact CO$$$.  R is steady to growing, I is steady to growing (both slowly) In the whole thing, I've never had a R dilapidate or a "no job" zot..(well I won't say never.. I guess it does occasionally happen while I'm developing transport systems.. but not as a part of this cycle thing) If anything, R is still lagging C development significantly as this is a "jobs market" city with job capacity exceding residence supply and sim's generally commuting in. I'm sure if I looked at the repository I'd see that there is large "vacancy" in this city which is filled by "SimNation". To the best of my memory all demands are steady plus (maybe a bit of variation, but no negative demands are a part of the cycle in R or I)

These cycles tend to happen when you play only one city for a long time, and don't let its neighbors grow.  Rotating play among cities is the best way to minimize this effect.

Actually, I'm almost religious about rotating cities if I let the simulator run.. I play until I start to see a general flattening of growth, then I shut it down and move on. Generally I'll play through all 23 or so citytiles before I go back. Usually this means I play a given city from 9-12 months (for "static" cities I don't plan to grow) to 4 or 5 years (if there is strong development). In fact even when I am still having strong growth, I'll still cycle cities after 10%-25% growth. When I  started to see the CO$$$ cycles, I let it run just to investigate.. but didn't save it. It will go on for many years (at least 10 years or about 20 complete cycles. I quite watching after that time, but they showed no sign of lessening)

Having huge commercial buildings in a small city can easily destabilize things.  My guess is that there's a lot of residential demand due to the WTC, so the Sims build a lot trying to fulfill it.  But for various reasons unique to your city, the mix of Sims who move into your city is not identical to what that building requires for workers.  So enough Sims remain unemployed that housing becomes abandoned.  Yet that building still needs workers, so the Sims start building again...  That's my guess; RippleJet would probably know a lot more, and seeing the details of your city's demand would reveal a lot.  But I think I've got the basic idea right here.  You could always try saving a copy of your city, then demolishing the WTC and see what happens.  My guess is that things will settle down then.  In any case, this is not a traffic simulator problem.

Yes, well this is part of the problem of BAT teams making the "rewards" come up too soon. That is the "reward" version placed after I was offered it.. and I was interesting in trying it as I hadn't used it before. But the city isn't that "small".. its 1/3 million RCI total.. but of course compared to the 52000 CO$$$ rating, its "small" I guess.. lol.. It would be REALLY SWEET if this WTC were to be made a "phased reward" with first the ground lots and maybe 12000 jobs, then one tower with maybe 15000 added jobs, then finally the second tower added with maybe 20000 jobs.. or even could be broken down further as it really has some nice models on it with 3 "base" buildings and 2 large towers all on a pretty nice plaza lot.. so it could be 5 stages too.. Don't know it that's possible. The lot has a construction "place holder" which is a very nice design.. the rewards each could step through "expanding construction" showing until the lot is complete.. Don't know if that's possible or not. I was pretty impressed with the lot.
And your comment is probably appropriate.. I'm not sure what would happen if I deleted it.. and if I use it in the future I'll certainly delay building it. (I'm entranced by my "Staged Reward" idea.. hehe) Anyways.. on with the details....

In a sense this building is kind of handy as it absorbs almost all the fluctuation of the cycle.. thats another reason I mention it since it coincidently is the same order of magnitude as the cycle spread. It ranges from an almost abandoned 15000 or so up to a very healthy nearly 50000 jobs (judged by the capacity ratios shown on the query) My traffic into it is only about 3000.. I'd love to have it much closer to the capacity.. The city is not "DENSE" yet as most zones are medium outside the center area of the tile

As I mention, I rarely have R and I cycles. Furthermore I have very little imbalance in intercity traffic.. I never have more than a 2:1 ratio in sims leaving to sims entering a given citytile unless its part of my specific plan.. Other than one specific R$ source that I use to supply several cities.. It has a net egress of 10's of thousands and only 1 or 2 thousand coming in.. mostly R$$ and R$$$. And I use taxes to control demands so that I don't get the big "build/bust" residential cycles.. also I'm a slow, steady player.. I don't just slap a giant swath of zones down and go.. I "develop" the areas as if they were growing.. at least that's the idea.

Anyways.. I'm not expecting you to "solve my problem".. just thought you might have some ideas and insights.. its really not a issue to me as the city is working fine.. but I never see this kind of cycling generally so thought I'd ask.

PS: I know this is sort of off topic for your simulator, so feel free to move these last few messages to a separate thread if you want.

[RickD]

I don't know if this is the right place to ask. But since I switched from Sim A hard to Z medium lately I figured it might be related.

Since when do Sims walk from job to job?

[Tarkus]

Since when do Sims walk from job to job?

When you've accidentally installed the park-and-ride version.   Just switch to a non-park-and-ride and things will be back to normal.

-Alex

[Blue Lightning]

Um Alex I think he's referring to the fact that sims are walking from a C to a C

My guess is that you installed that RCI mod that appeared on the STEX a while back? Or you recently rezoned the area and the simulator just needs time to reset. Try running the game for a little while.

Vince

[Tarkus]

Um Alex I think he's referring to the fact that sims are walking from a C to a C

D'oh!  I hadn't noticed that bit. 

-Alex

[z]

I would tend to concur with Vince here.  Sims do walk more with Simulator Z, but there's no reason they should walk from a C to a C.  (Unless they're interviewing for another job, of course.  )  I would expect such a situation to disappear with the next run of the traffic simulator.  Please let us know if it doesn't.

[46852]

The reason for having buses is to simulate the role of buses in a real city. 

I still don't understand what advantage do the buses give to me & my city when using Simulator Z, other than eye candy? They're slower than cars, and cause congestion as much as cars do. I'm not sure if you've explained it before (I've tried to browse through all Traffic Sim Z threads) but why do the buses have to cause congestion as much as car traffic does in your simulator? I used to use buses as congestion relief and traffic pollution reducing method (they are this in real life, aren't they), but in Sim Z they are neither. Why should I build them? I don't want my bus stops to be mere eye candy props


EDIT:

How would a setup that had buses not cause congestion but had them move even slower (to simulate stops) work?

PPS. Why does mass transit cause pollution in Sim Z? Does the "cause pollution" tag allow you to tweak some other side of the traffic sim or something?

[z]

I still don't understand what advantage do the buses give to me & my city when using Simulator Z, other than eye candy?

A certain proportion of Sims, which varies by wealth level, prefers to take mass transit rather than drive cars.  Buses are by far the cheapest form of mass transit to construct and run, and they require little or no real estate.  For those Sims that prefer to take mass transit, buses are a simple and inexpensive way to satisfy their needs.

They're slower than cars, and cause congestion as much as cars do. I'm not sure if you've explained it before (I've tried to browse through all Traffic Sim Z threads) but why do the buses have to cause congestion as much as car traffic does in your simulator? I used to use buses as congestion relief and traffic pollution reducing method (they are this in real life, aren't they), but in Sim Z they are neither. Why should I build them? I don't want my bus stops to be mere eye candy props

Unfortunately, we have no control over how much congestion a travel type causes - there's just a binary setting that says a travel type will either contribute to traffic (and congestion) or not.  Similarly, to answer your PPS, there's no separate setting for pollution - all travel types that contribute to traffic automatically contribute to pollution, and by the same amount.  One thing I have done in Simulator Z is to reduce this amount significantly, as it was really too high for NAM traffic volumes.  This difference is quite visible if you look at air pollution along roads in Simulator Z compared to any of the other traffic simulators.  (For this to work, you must have the Clean Air Act enabled, though.)

The buses are definitely not mere eye candy, for the reasons I mentioned in the first paragraph.  Having them contribute to traffic allows the traffic simulator to more intelligently distribute the Sims among various forms of mass transit.  In the near future, it will allow a reasonable simulation of bus lanes (although this will not be visible with the automata).  Previously, buses were always the travel type of last resort, and if other travel types became full, the traffic simulator would just stuff more and more Sims into buses (which were run by the infamous Black Hole Bus Company).  Not only did it throw the traffic simulation off, but it's not how real transit systems work at all.  There's no question that Simulator Z's system is not completely realistic, but complete realism simply is not possible here given the underlying Maxis engine, and Simulator Z's system consistently appears to produce the most realistic-looking results.

How would a setup that had buses not cause congestion but had them move even slower (to simulate stops) work?

That would only make things worse, as it would encourage Sims to switch to cars, and buses would be used even more as the last resort option I described above, and nothing else.  This would result in very unrealistic traffic patterns.

[46852]

A certain proportion of Sims, which varies by wealth level, prefers to take mass transit rather than drive cars.  Buses are by far the cheapest form of mass transit to construct and run, and they require little or no real estate.  For those Sims that prefer to take mass transit, buses are a simple and inexpensive way to satisfy their needs.

But isn't it so that if there is no mass transit available for the sims who'd prefer it, they drive their car instead (or walk, which has nicely improved in Sim Z!). If bus is slower, congests traffic and pollutes as much, there's simply no imperative to build a bus system at all!

You mentioned "satisfying their needs", is there some unhappiness factor if certain mass transits aren't provided?

PS. Don't get me wrong here by the way, I really appreciate all the magic stuff you're doing with Simcity 4 traffic sim, keep up the good work! I'm just sad to see the Black Hole Bus Company going bankrupt

[Eagle]

One of the main uses for bus is traffic distribution for connected cities.  For example, a large population city will be connected to several job market cities using several main lines (normally use some type of rail).  Once the hordes of sims get to the job market city via rail, I get them off of the rail & on to buses to get to their jobs.  That way, you don't have to build vast rail or subway networks with stations on every block.  Just plop 100 bus stops & you are done. 

Another use of bus is to control who uses your other mass transit.  Instead of placing parking garages at the mass transit station, place a bus stop.  Then, place bus stops only in the residential areas that you want to use the mass transit.  This is a great way to keep the sims in your job market cities from ussing up the mass transit capacity meant for your main city sims.

[z]

But isn't it so that if there is no mass transit available for the sims who'd prefer it, they drive their car instead (or walk, which has nicely improved in Sim Z!). If bus is slower, congests traffic and pollutes as much, there's simply no imperative to build a bus system at all!

Some Sims don't have cars, or prefer not to drive; taking the bus is cheaper than driving, and it's a lot faster than walking.  SC4 is just like RL in these ways, and these ideas are effectively built into the traffic simulator.  For the poor Sim who has no car, or can't afford to use his or hers much, buses are great.  Most people (at least in this country) don't base their choice of whether to take the bus or drive based on pollution considerations (though some do).  The main purpose of building a bus system is to provide Sims with cheap transportation.  Eagle also raises some very valid points.

You mentioned "satisfying their needs", is there some unhappiness factor if certain mass transits aren't provided?

Certain percentages of each Sim wealth type prefer to take mass transit.  If they can't, they'll drive, but they're penalized in terms of commute time.

Finally, bus lanes are coming.  Their implementation would not be possible if buses did not contribute to traffic.

[SC4BOY]

I am trying to use another person's dataview mod.. It seems that when I load the z-mod and its included data view, that it is overriding his mod.. Is that true? Is it possible to  use both? He addresses the DESIRABILITY view which isn't part of your view as I understand it.. Here's exerpts  from his doc's

EDIT: Hmm I note over on ST you mention that you have used it and it works fine.. perhaps you can let me know what was needed to make it work with your mod.. thx

=====   THL DataView Detail Mod v1.0   =====
...
- Extract the contents of this ZIP to any subfolder of your C:\SimCity4\Plugins directory.

== Description ==

This mod increases the detail visible on the high end of the color spectum for the Desirability, Mayor Rating, and Land Value data views, allowing more distinction where areas of a city used to be solid green. It also increases the max value visible on the Mayor Rating Graph from 100 to the game maximum of 128.

The number of jobs available on a lot is directly proportional to the desirability of the area it's in, so lots with a desirability of less than 50% will have under half thier normal capacity filled. This is now indicated by red.

"Default" mayor rating (without any other effects) is around 30, this is now brown. Anything below default rating is red to clear (rock bottom for mayor rating and health/education effects is transparent, since that's what non-residential zones display).
...
== Contact Information ==
Simtropolis forum thread (no longer accessable at ST.. lost during the last attack/crash..)
Screename: Thalassicus (PM me at Simtropolis.com)

I don't know if the mod is available elsewhere. I don't see it listed at STEX, but from the description, I'm pretty sure you can easily see what's being done.. if you want the file, I can PM you about it.

[z]

Yes, I use this mod heavily.  There should be no conflict between it and either Simulator Z or the new data views, which are completely different from the data views used in this mod.  Try just putting this mod in the top level of your Plugins directory.

[SC4BOY]

haha.. well I think you're right.. and in truth I think it was working all the time.. I happened to be using it on cities that were already pretty maxed.. I used it on a new city (actually fooling with the Timbuktu tutorial) and found that it seems to be working fine.. Sorry I bothered you with this one.. In fact I'd like even better resolution sort of like the great work you did on the traffic view..

[gabrielbyrnei]

Hi, is there any way of changing the type of underlying network the volume date view shows?

For example, i want to know at what volume an elevated highway if functioning, but the volume view is showing it for roads.

Thanks