What causes Prop Pox (and how to avoid it)

[joshua43214]

I'm just ignoring anything that doesn't state "resource key type 0".  When I DO see that, I guess i'm just checking the entire line to see if it says anything about being overriden by type 4....

As my father always said, "if the job is worth doing, it is worth doing right."

You are wasting your time looking only for type 0. It is the type 1 being overwritten by type 4 that was the problem with the Peg files.

The issue is not one type being overwritten by another, the issue is a type being overwritten by a longer type.

I went ahead and downloaded the BDK file from the STEX and loaded it up into an empty plugins folder


Notice in the top I have the Maxis patio chair highlighted and it shows as a Resource Key Type 1 with 3 numbers (5AD0E817-BADB57F1-290D0000). In the bottom I have the Peg patio chair highlighted that is overwriting the Maxis chair, and it is a Resource Key Type 4 that has 16 numbers. This is a cause of prop pox.

It also illustrates what I have been saying for years, avoid the STEX when ever possible. Even reputable authors like Pegasus have stuff there that should be removed or locked. If I remember correctly, Barbyw uploaded some bats here on the LEX that had this same issue, these bats are all now either updated or locked (sorry Barbyw if I have this confused).

I might write a bit of code for checking this. I already wrote some code a while back for scanning dat files, if I expand it to scan all files it should be a simple matter to simply make sure that all props with the same TGI have the same resource key type, and generate a list of bats that have issues.

[packersfan]

I did just install some lots that require JimCarPark Packs or whatever...urgh...there must be a way to check files before-hand to PREVENT this sort of thing....and we need a clear tutorial on HOW to do it.  Here's to hoping I can save at least a 3-month old backup of my SECOND plagued tile...ugh...

[packersfan]

I'm doing a search through SC4DataNode for overriding props, specifically a Resource Key Type 4 override either a Type 1 or 0.  (Tip: Start from the bottom if you haven't had problems with any of your completely developed cities until now, likely the culprit is going to be towards the bottom and not the top).  I started from the bottom and found one culprit (I think rather quickly - It is from xannepan's Seine Riverfront series JENXPARIS_QS1.dat.  Now this is strange, since I've had this in my folder forever and present when I've saved a number of my big cities (have I corrupted ALL my big cities?  If this is so, I give...and I guess I'm starting another new region...it is just to painful to rebuild so much).  What is strange is that the prop being overridden is contained in the SAME .dat file.  I'll keep you posted on any more findings.

[mgb204]

...found one culprit (I think rather quickly - It is from xannepan's Seine Riverfront series JENXPARIS_QS1.dat.

Are you sure you're interpreting the data correctly? When I compare Xannepann's files against my entire plugins folder it does not show any prop overrides for them. Also, as one of the most experienced modders around you might want to tred carefully before making the suggestion they could be faulty. Looking at the latest release, all props have unique IDs, therefore these files are fine even if they are modified Maxis props, you must overwrite the Maxis props with the same IID and change the RTK property for this problem to occur.

---

As for the Jim Car Props, the original Maxis props are overwritten with a file (Delete Default CarProp v1.0.DAT) that overrides them with a null key (i.e. it makes them disappear). It simply doesn't have any properties pertaining to RTKs (or anything else for that matter). The new props have unique IDs and were made in such a way that they do not in fact overwrite anything, they are unique props with unique IDs that take the space the Maxis props still use, only the Maxis ones re-direct to a model that doesn't exist and so they don't appear at the same time. Long and short, there is nothing wrong with this file.

Once again the fear of prop pox is way out of proportion with reality, whatever the facts (honestly, it's not really clear) there is for 99% + of users about sod all chance of this happening. More people think they have the dreaded pox than actually understand what it is and what the best guess so far as to it's cause is. In fact if you take everything explained in this thread as fact, the simple answer is don't install the BDK and you should be fine.

I personally resent the opinion that somehow because a creators work is on the STEX it is inferior or of a poorer quality. The reality is that most content (regardless of where it was hosted) is made by people with a passion for this game and whilst errors can occur (this is some complex stuff you know), most creators take every care to ensure they do not. I think with a little bit of reading everyone can work out why PEG didn't update the BDK, come to think of it you don't see any new stuff either, just food for thought, perhaps this hysteria isn't beneficial or proportionate?

[packersfan]

Hey, all I know is that I've caught the Prop Pox twice.  First in 2012, when after I removed the BDK things ran fine on my large tiles.  Now it has popped up again.

I don't know if I'm interpreting the data correctly.  I admit I could be wrong.  I don't wish to slander anyone.  This problem is very real, though.  Yeah, WE all know that it will strike only a tiny percentage of people (well it has happened to me twice and I'm looking for answers again.)  This time it has affected so much in my region that I might just abandon it because it will take forever just to determine how much is messed up, much less rebuild.

When I went through all the props overrides in DataNode this came up as a RTK 1 and then the overriding one was an RTK 4.  However, both prop instances were from the same file...so I don't know what that means.

I don't know why everyone is getting bent out of shape about highlighting what MAY be a problem file.  If I just kept my mouth shut you wouldn't have checked the file to make sure.  I LOVE the modders here and at the STEX.  I know there is a risk to modding the game.  When I have a pretty catastrophic problem like this which renders a large tile basically a ticking time bomb as you add more and more props to the land building a great city, I want to find the problem so it can be fixed, others can avoid/fix the problem, and I can go back to enjoying a clean game.

I'm not out to get PEG or Xannepan.  I LOVE there files...I hate even thinking that Xannepann's files could have caused this because I WANT those lots in my cities!

So if it is not prop-pox, what is it?  Changing the graphics setting to low and back to high does nothing.  Checking in SC4Save shows that it indeed is Prop Pox'd as we define it.

Can you explain to me better what to look for when searching DataNode?  I clicked on TGI and then Prop List and clicked on every two props that had the same instance code and checked that the RTKs were the same for both...and found only this ONE prop pair with a "problem"...RTK 1 overridden by an RTK 4.

I don't know if that is the problem...I'm going to do the binary test to see what happens.

[HappyDays]

Is it possible you have the now locked version of the Quais de Seine?: http://sc4devotion.com/csxlex/lex_filedesc.php?lotGET=2774

[packersfan]

That is quite possible...I've moved on to starting a new fresh region, but it is good to have a hint that perhaps this file was bad and that I might have had a locked file.  I'll have to pick up the NEW version of it!!!

[mgb204]

When I responded to your post, I ended the response and switched to a more general comment, noting this with three hyphens. As a player I genuinely feel for you, almost every other type of problem can be resolved with an archived backup, but not this, I fully understand what that means.

Hey, all I know is that I've caught the Prop Pox twice.  First in 2012, when after I removed the BDK things ran fine on my large tiles.  Now it has popped up again.

If you had prop pox then your files would have been corrupted the first time, are you saying you managed to continue the region thereafter? In which case perhaps you should know those affected save files were always doomed, there is no cure, only prevention. That would suggest that the problems have been there all along and that you may not have any other "faulty" content.

In fact the mere suggestion that you can play with prop-poxed cities for 2 years without problems is far more suggestive of the fact that you don't actually have prop pox, if you did there is no magical fix, certainly not removing a single mod. I would need more information about what changes were made and things were done and specifics on how well it was working during the interim period before I could state anything as fact though.

This time it has affected so much in my region that I might just abandon it because it will take forever just to determine how much is messed up, much less rebuild.

There is simply no fix or rebuilding here, ditch the region and move on, even your backups (if you have them) will likely be corrupted too.

When I went through all the props overrides in DataNode this came up as a RTK 1 and then the overriding one was an RTK 4.  However, both prop instances were from the same file...so I don't know what that means.

So you have a prop being overridden by another with a new RTK 4 exemplar, which may sound like the problem, but due to the complexity of the problem it kinda is/isn't. Yes this type of prop change is to be avoided, but unless one displays in your city, is subsequently saved and then at some point it disappears (for example you delete the content, bulldoze the lot or it upgrades in-game), the bug will not be triggered in the savefiles. Even when it is, as a user you'd have no way of knowing without checking the save files, but even then you may never actually see the problem occur.

Without looking into this in-depth I can't really comment if these files are broken or otherwise, if they are the "old, locked ones" I don't have any way to get them, so I can't help you with this.

I don't know why everyone is getting bent out of shape about highlighting what MAY be a problem file.  If I just kept my mouth shut you wouldn't have checked the file to make sure.  I LOVE the modders here and at the STEX.  I know there is a risk to modding the game.  When I have a pretty catastrophic problem like this which renders a large tile basically a ticking time bomb as you add more and more props to the land building a great city, I want to find the problem so it can be fixed, others can avoid/fix the problem, and I can go back to enjoying a clean game.

I'm not out to get PEG or Xannepan.  I LOVE there files...I hate even thinking that Xannepann's files could have caused this because I WANT those lots in my cities!

Well I was a little offended by the comments of joshua43214, it's a slur on the reputation of creators, that comes across with a whiff of elitism and totally disproportionate (picking up a theme here?). I am not bent out of shape to my knowledge, the simple truth is that most content does work and won't break your game. So to suggest the only way to be safe is to ignore the vast vaults of every other file exchange as somehow prudent is frankly ridiculous.

The simple fact is, since this problem was discovered no new instances of faulty props have been found, not a single one. Look through these pages, by comparison how many have been linked as potential "prop pox" suspects. Then look at user comments with regards to those files. Users are steering clear or worried about content that simply should never have been publicly named or should have been rebutted. Many users won't spend the time it takes to go through every post here, but reading it is a cacophony of misinformed folks and needless paranoia.

I'll use the Jim Car Props as an example. I could check them very quickly and see that the file contained nothing that could possibly cause this problem because I know what I'm looking at. Yet the idea that they might cause the pox has been stated here (more than once) and you can see the evidence of the resulting paranoia on these very pages. Once a file is linked to the prop pox, for many simple guilt by association kicks in, this is sadly human nature.

Given the stigma generated I'd want to be pretty sure I was right before I'd publicly mention any file. If I seriously thought a creators file was problematic I would contact them privately before going public with the merest suggestion it might be, especially if I didn't even understand what I was looking at.

Of course if you have prop pox, telling you not to worry about it is not really helpful, but this part was not really directed at you.

So if it is not prop-pox, what is it?  Changing the graphics setting to low and back to high does nothing.  Checking in SC4Save shows that it indeed is Prop Pox'd as we define it.

I would have said before this sounds like what is defined here are prop pox, I was not disputing that, although given the new information I now have some doubts. Then again if SC4Save says otherwise, who am I to argue.

Can you explain to me better what to look for when searching DataNode?  I clicked on TGI and then Prop List and clicked on every two props that had the same instance code and checked that the RTKs were the same for both...and found only this ONE prop pair with a "problem"...RTK 1 overridden by an RTK 4.

Yes and no, I can tell you how to search or what to look for, but as you are unable to interpret the data, I can see it getting out of hand quickly. If I could sit in front of your PC, I'd be happy to spend whatever time it takes to look into it. But I can't and from afar this becomes a vastly more difficult task.

don't know if that is the problem...I'm going to do the binary test to see what happens.

I don't understand your motivations here, if I'm not mistaken that won't help you in any way to find a problem.

If your files are corrupted now (or were before, assuming you have the pox), they can not be uncorrupted by removing plugins or anything else. Corrupted save files can not be fixed by any currently known means, primarily since there is a system in place to recognise any modified save files and reject them built into SC4. I suggest you try to read up some more on the problem, because you seem to have mis-understood what Prop Pox does to your savefiles.

What if you don't have any files that cause prop pox as defined here? You are searching for a needle in a haystack, if you are confident that the only overriding props are from one DAT (there is no QS1.DAT in the latest release FYI) then the best I can do is suggest you update to the latest version of this mod and move on. This brings us full circle, because so many people are looking for a problem that doesn't exist (that's not to say Prop Pox doesn't), however, If there is no needle in your haystacks, all the time spent searching for one is futile. Hypothetically, what if you did once have such a faulty file in your plugins, but it's long gone so the problem could exist, but you have no way of tracking it down?

This is the reality of prop pox for most people, known cases must number less than 50, confirmed cases are much lower. Here's the rub; if I told people that they had a 0.0000001% chance of something bad happening, they wouldn't think about it and just get on with life. And that's the reality of prop pox, the odds are so infinitesimally small of this problem, that by and large it's simply not worth worrying about.

On the other side what are the chances you are going to find a potential file that no one else has yet found, I would say approximately 0%, because as of now, that's the exact odds as defined by this very thread. Whilst it's heart-breaking to loose your region and I understand you want to do all you can to avoid a repeat of this, there is only so much you can do or that is worth doing when you put all the facts into perspective. I know it seems crass to simply sum up with "I know it sucks, but it shouldn't happen again so just move on" but sometimes the truth is not what people like to hear?

Just thinking aloud, if you want to be totally sure this problem won't cause such havoc again you could do the following:

  - Make a regular backup of your SC4 Savefiles, keep at least 2 or 3 previous versions of the backup archived.
  - When performing the backup, check the files with SC4Save to make sure they are fine.

In the event a backup showed corrupted save data, the archive should contain uncorrupted versions to restore. Worst case you'd loose the work done in the interval period between backups.

[packersfan]

When I responded to your post, I ended the response and switched to a more general comment, noting this with three hyphens. As a player I genuinely feel for you, almost every other type of problem can be resolved with an archived backup, but not this, I fully understand what that means.

Okay, no problem, I was just a little frustrated.

If you had prop pox then your files would have been corrupted the first time, are you saying you managed to continue the region thereafter? In which case perhaps you should know those affected save files were always doomed, there is no cure, only prevention. That would suggest that the problems have been there all along and that you may not have any other "faulty" content.

In fact the mere suggestion that you can play with prop-poxed cities for 2 years without problems is far more suggestive of the fact that you don't actually have prop pox, if you did there is no magical fix, certainly not removing a single mod. I would need more information about what changes were made and things were done and specifics on how well it was working during the interim period before I could state anything as fact though.

Let me just talk this out.  I get what you are saying.  The first city that DISPLAYED Prop Pox was merely the first of my large tiles to reach the point where Prop Pox manifests itself (when the save file jumps from 13-14 MB to 23-24 MB).  So I see what you are saying...any other large tile I saved with the BDK file in my plugins was infected.  I'll have to check, though, because I have two or three other large tiles that have passed the danger threshold and they haven't displayed any problems...and I have to think that I played and saved those tile while infected, too.  This is where the confusion comes in...really the only "clean" save would be the rebooted prop poxed city.

I was able to play the region for FOUR more years because none of the other large tiles reached that "prop pox" threshold (though three other large tiles did surpass it with seemingly no problems) until now.

So in fact, I never played with "Prop Pox'd" cities...(they were corrupted, but there was no way to no that (SC4Save doesn't tell you a city is prop pox'd until AFTER it passes the threshold to where the corruption actually manifests).

There is simply no fix or rebuilding here, ditch the region and move on, even your backups (if you have them) will likely be corrupted too.

Yeah, this is a sad realization...Again, I can keep playing the region as this problem almost has no possibility of occurring on what are probably infected MEDIUM or SMALL tiles since those save files never reach 13 or more MB.  However, I just can't take rebuilding all those large tiles...

Four years of this region post discovering Prop Pox and I guess not FULLY realizing what that meant for ALL the other large city tiles.

So you have a prop being overridden by another with a new RTK 4 exemplar, which may sound like the problem, but due to the complexity of the problem it kinda is/isn't. Yes this type of prop change is to be avoided, but unless one displays in your city, is subsequently saved and then at some point it disappears (for example you delete the content, bulldoze the lot or it upgrades in-game), the bug will not be triggered in the savefiles. Even when it is, as a user you'd have no way of knowing without checking the save files, but even then you may never actually see the problem occur.

Without looking into this in-depth I can't really comment if these files are broken or otherwise, if they are the "old, locked ones" I don't have any way to get them, so I can't help you with this.

I just wanted to make sure.  Now that I see it is a locked file, I feel very comfortable picking up the updated version.  I really like the river embankments.

Well I was a little offended by the comments of joshua43214, it's a slur on the reputation of creators, that comes across with a whiff of elitism and totally disproportionate (picking up a theme here?). I am not bent out of shape to my knowledge, the simple truth is that most content does work and won't break your game. So to suggest the only way to be safe is to ignore the vast vaults of every other file exchange as somehow prudent is frankly ridiculous.

The simple fact is, since this problem was discovered no new instances of faulty props have been found, not a single one. Look through these pages, by comparison how many have been linked as potential "prop pox" suspects. Then look at user comments with regards to those files. Users are steering clear or worried about content that simply should never have been publicly named or should have been rebutted. Many users won't spend the time it takes to go through every post here, but reading it is a cacophony of misinformed folks and needless paranoia.

I'll use the Jim Car Props as an example. I could check them very quickly and see that the file contained nothing that could possibly cause this problem because I know what I'm looking at. Yet the idea that they might cause the pox has been stated here (more than once) and you can see the evidence of the resulting paranoia on these very pages. Once a file is linked to the prop pox, for many simple guilt by association kicks in, this is sadly human nature.

Given the stigma generated I'd want to be pretty sure I was right before I'd publicly mention any file. If I seriously thought a creators file was problematic I would contact them privately before going public with the merest suggestion it might be, especially if I didn't even understand what I was looking at.

Of course if you have prop pox, telling you not to worry about it is not really helpful, but this part was not really directed at you.

Yeah, I can understand the stigma attached.  I guess I was counting on everyone to work together and weed out problems.  JimCar Props for example.  I didn't find any issues when going through the plugins, so then I just chalked that up as a false lead.

I wouldn't avoid a whole Exchange.  That is paranoia.  Just be diligent and if you want and know how, check things out under the hood.

I would have said before this sounds like what is defined here are prop pox, I was not disputing that, although given the new information I now have some doubts. Then again if SC4Save says otherwise, who am I to argue.

I still think it is Prop Pox.  Your explanation really makes sense.  Any city tile I saved while having that file in my plugins is infected...they just don't show the PROP POX until the save file reaches a certain size...which most of them hadn't ...and still haven't...until this point.

Yes and no, I can tell you how to search or what to look for, but as you are unable to interpret the data, I can see it getting out of hand quickly. If I could sit in front of your PC, I'd be happy to spend whatever time it takes to look into it. But I can't and from afar this becomes a vastly more difficult task.

Yeah, I wish I could interpret the data.  Easier to start over at this point anyway.

I don't understand your motivations here, if I'm not mistaken that won't help you in any way to find a problem.

If your files are corrupted now (or were before, assuming you have the pox), they can not be uncorrupted by removing plugins or anything else. Corrupted save files can not be fixed by any currently known means, primarily since there is a system in place to recognise any modified save files and reject them built into SC4. I suggest you try to read up some more on the problem, because you seem to have mis-understood what Prop Pox does to your savefiles.

What if you don't have any files that cause prop pox as defined here? You are searching for a needle in a haystack, if you are confident that the only overriding props are from one DAT (there is no QS1.DAT in the latest release FYI) then the best I can do is suggest you update to the latest version of this mod and move on. This brings us full circle, because so many people are looking for a problem that doesn't exist (that's not to say Prop Pox doesn't), however, If there is no needle in your haystacks, all the time spent searching for one is futile. Hypothetically, what if you did once have such a faulty file in your plugins, but it's long gone so the problem could exist, but you have no way of tracking it down?

This is the reality of prop pox for most people, known cases must number less than 50, confirmed cases are much lower. Here's the rub; if I told people that they had a 0.0000001% chance of something bad happening, they wouldn't think about it and just get on with life. And that's the reality of prop pox, the odds are so infinitesimally small of this problem, that by and large it's simply not worth worrying about.

On the other side what are the chances you are going to find a potential file that no one else has yet found, I would say approximately 0%, because as of now, that's the exact odds as defined by this very thread. Whilst it's heart-breaking to loose your region and I understand you want to do all you can to avoid a repeat of this, there is only so much you can do or that is worth doing when you put all the facts into perspective. I know it seems crass to simply sum up with "I know it sucks, but it shouldn't happen again so just move on" but sometimes the truth is not what people like to hear?

First I started a clean region with an empty plugin folder.  Then built a city up to nearly 13 MB before the jump to 20+.  Then save this (this city SHOULD be clean)...continue building to get the leap...save and check (yep, clean).  Go back and grab the archived file of the near 13 MB clean city and now add in the entire plugin folder.  Theoretically I then build to get the jump and save.  Now check the file (no Prop Pox? then the offending file must have been the BDK way back 4 years ago - --- - If Prop Pox'd? = remove half the plugins, relaunched the archived clean city and build past the jump again and then check if infected.  This is how they found the BDK file.)  However, when I tried this after I returned all the plugins, my game froze on the save and I just gave up.  I was fully expecting to get a return of no prop pox anyway, which sounds like the case.

Just thinking aloud, if you want to be totally sure this problem won't cause such havoc again you could do the following:

  - Make a regular backup of your SC4 Savefiles, keep at least 2 or 3 previous versions of the backup archived.
  - When performing the backup, check the files with SC4Save to make sure they are fine.

In the event a backup showed corrupted save data, the archive should contain uncorrupted versions to restore. Worst case you'd loose the work done in the interval period between backups.

Yeah, now I'm armed with a few more tools I didn't know about.  Does SC4Save have information about corrupted save files?  I know it can tell if a city is PROP POX'd, but only after the jump...so an archive of that city even dating back 4 years could be infected and I'd never know...basically, I'd need to have a clean test city always available to test my plugin folder at any given time.

With my new region, I've sworn off 4x4km tiles.  They aren't really necessary for my gameplay and they've cause more trouble than good.  Thanks for your comments.

[jdenm8]

There is another option if you don't want to abandon the region, though it's not particularly appealing and I would make a backup before you do it.

IIRC, deleting the Prop Subfile in the City File will make the game rebuild the file from scratch as it places new props. Provided the bad mod file has been removed, the issue should not present itself again. Keep in mind that this will remove all of the props in your city.

[HappyDays]

Set detail settings to low, then high, and the city will be returned to its former glory after the process. Some saving and exiting may be involved.

[nas786]

Ok guys.  lemme reiterate, this is all a completely new language to me, so bear with me.  So what I did is open the sc4datanode, opened my plugins file.  On the right column I clicked "TGI view" and I also clicked "Lots - props", and scrolled through the entire list, clicking on all the files written in red/orange text, as it seems that these were the ones which were being overridden. 

I did not see any type 4 props overriding any type 0 or type 1 props, so I don't know what's going on.

The only thing that kinda stuck out to me is in the rtmt folder, there was a file with type 4 props overriding other files, however none of those prop files had the "resource type key" line in it, so I don't know what's up.

I attached a screen shot of what I'm talking about, on there I am clicked on the overriding file, which shows it as resource key type 4.  The bunch of files above it which it over writes, none of them have a "resource key type".

I don't know, did I do something wrong here?  Thought?

I was also expecting to come across the PEG random woods, given that I have an outdated version of it, however I never saw it highlighted as an overriding files. Or at least nothing stuck out to me mentioning trees or anything like that.

[nas786]

Set detail settings to low, then high, and the city will be returned to its former glory after the process. Some saving and exiting may be involved.

yup, this is basically what I'm doing.  I did that, got all my props back, and as they slowly disappear with each save, every now n then I just do that again, lol.  Its pretty bootleg, but it don't bother me.  Seems the easiest way to deal with it.

[mgb204]

Yeah, now I'm armed with a few more tools I didn't know about.  Does SC4Save have information about corrupted save files?  I know it can tell if a city is PROP POX'd, but only after the jump...so an archive of that city even dating back 4 years could be infected and I'd never know...basically, I'd need to have a clean test city always available to test my plugin folder at any given time.

Now I've read your last post, it occurs to me that it probably won't help, my thinking was that since it could tell you a city was poxed (which is ultimately a form of file corruption) that this tool could tell if a file was damaged. Of course before the Network Subfile expands the corruption doesn't occur, so actually my idea wouldn't work at all.

Ultimately it would seem to me that this problem occurred a long time ago and has been waiting in the wings since then, so in reality you have only been poxed once. Given the sheer number of users of most mods/downloads, if something deadly were out there, you can be pretty confident someone would have found it by now. With that in mind I think you should be safe if you steer clear of the BDK or fix it, in all likelihood this kind of thing should not happen again. As for the tile, the decision of writing it off or limping onwards is really more about what you can live with. Personally I would just kill it knowing that ultimately it may be doomed and putting more work into it doesn't make sense.

@NAS786

Plenty of props (and other things) get overriden, there is nothing inherently wrong with doing this. If the files in PEG Random Woods do not override other game-exemplars then again they too can not cause prop pox. Many files have been listed in this thread as "potential suspects" I will repeat than in all the years this thread has been going not one single new file with this problem has been found, not one, don't worry about it, enjoy your game, you could get hit by a bus, but you probably won't - I'm sure you don't spend much time contemplating how to avoid it either way.

[packersfan]

There is NO WAY to fix a prop pox'd city ... or as I've learned now, any city that was saved while the offending file (BDK...) was in the plugin folder.

I believe I tried the prop subfile route back in 2011 and it didn't do anything.

I tried doing the graphic trick to limp forward...but it must require saving and exiting, etc...and that would just exasperate the problem.

You may as well kill the tile...and any other large tiles you played and saved while the BDK file was in your plugins.

Now I'm quite confident that the only BAD file that causes the Prop Pox is that BDK file.  I agree with mgb204.  Given the amount of users of most mods/downloads, if something else were causing this issue, it would have affected many people and been found by now.

So, some advice from someone who has just learned the hard truth.  If you discover you have prop pox and you have the BDK file in your plugins OR it was in your plugins at ANY point, you should just assume ALL your large tiles are corrupted (though I'm not sure if this hurts those that make the leap to 23+ MB).

I've cut out one part of the equation by relying solely on medium/small tiles in my new region.  Prop Pox isn't the ONLY reason for this...performance issues also tend to plague 4x4 tiles more often than medium and small tiles.

[Turjan]

This is the reality of prop pox for most people, known cases must number less than 50, confirmed cases are much lower. Here's the rub; if I told people that they had a 0.0000001% chance of something bad happening, they wouldn't think about it and just get on with life. And that's the reality of prop pox, the odds are so infinitesimally small of this problem, that by and large it's simply not worth worrying about.

I'm not sure that this is so. I guess the problem is vastly underreported. Or you are right, and given the play style of many people who just plop skyscrapers in their downtowns, they may never experience this, as skyscraper lots are unlikely candidates to cause this issue.

My cities that reach the necessary file size to show the problems are of the partially rural type, with lots of tree and agricultural props. The image of the university from last page looks familiar. I could have posted the same. I definitely never used the BDK in that region. At the moment, I'm thinking of backing out from using seasonal trees. Not in the tree controller - that one doesn't touch the original Maxis trees - but in tree replacers. I have absolutely no idea what caused the prop pox in my case, but I may look at that mod that replaced trees on Maxis lots with random seasonal trees. I'm not calling it out, as I have no idea whether this mod is related to my issues (Edit: Proven not to be the issue. Sorry for that). In any case, given the number of mods used, it's like looking for a needle in a haystack.

And the latter means that the number of confirmed cases tends to be low by default, given the difficulties of nailing down the reason for sure. But that's a methodological problem, and I don't think the low number truly reflects the number of cases. Most people will just conclude the city is bugged and throw it aside. Even if they investigate the matter, they will find that there is no cure, so the reaction would be to move on. But sure, it's mostly a problem of people who play the "decorator" style of the game.

Just to show that I'm sure about this being a prop poxed city:

[mgb204]

Well it would seem to me that anyone who'd taken a city/region to where it needs to be for this problem to materialise is probably the kind of person who's initial response is how do I fix it, ultimately this problem is well known about and I would expect a good percentage of those people to subsequently find this thread.

You can't replace Maxis tree props with seasonal versions, but many mods for seasonal trees don't work this way. Again a quick check through this thread brings up many examples of people who have prop pox but also didn't use the BDK. In fact a large chunk of the cases originate from before the release date of the BDK. We know a couple of files on the LEX which were subsequently fixed had this problem too. Still no one has confirmed anything since as causing prop pox. One of the biggest problems is that the trigger can happen and years later you might find out. I've not been playing the game for more than 2 years, my plugins are an ever-evolving and expanding entity, what are the odds that the file is still there or hasn't been updated?

If you want to check your entire plugins folder, I'd take a copy to one side, deleting files as you find they are OK, this way you'll have an ever-dwindling set of potentials.

Begin by doing a search for SC4Lot, SC4Model and SC4LooseDesc files, delete them all, these files should not contain prop exemplars. Add to that most of your prop packs, BSC packs and others with many tens of thousand users + are not realistically going to be where the problem lies. Of course many files are packed into DATs, so here's where the legwork is needed. To begin with separate all the files left into two "piles", one which you are sure have nothing to do with props (if you don't find it in the remainder, you may want to come back to them later), and the remainder. For these files you simply need to know if they are using unique ID's or not. There are not so many Maxis props, but cross-referencing them can be tedious, SC4 Data Node should help, but it's not exactly for novices either. Anything that comes up here will then need to be checked manually, that means opening it in the reader, going through the props to check the RTK value, and then cross referencing it against the Maxis DATs to ensure the same TGI was not used. At the point where someone genuinely finds evidence to suggest a Maxis prop is being overridden with an RKT4 prop, I'm certain they'd find a willing volunteer to step in and verify it.

The problem for me is when someone calls out a file because of a lack of understanding of either how to interpret what they are seeing or the prop pox problem. I don't think it's fair to do this in a public forum because you are frustrated, however, provided with the evidence to back it up (rather than a misinformed guess) then things change somewhat. Most creators are very nice friendly people, a simple PM would be enough for someone who understands how things work to provide an explanation to you. If that fails and the creator has moved on, well then I guess you may need to post and ask for help here. What I'm seeing (and I am reading between the lines a bit) are people naming files because something it does sounds vaguely like it could cause prop pox. Every time these files are checked by someone, nothing is wrong, after all this time I just think it's time for people to stop panicking over it, more people naming files have never even suffered from the pox, presumably they are motivated by paranoia? Certain files are always coming back around as rumoured to be a cause of the dreaded pox. There are for example users who are steering clear of or removing the Jim Car Props because they've simply been mentioned by someone, these files are totally fine, so theres a real world example of how a disproportionate response is negatively affecting innocent creators. Some mods take fantastical amounts of time, releasing your work always adds to this, because you have to do things differently and properly. If having made such efforts to give something away someone was to name one of my files without a shread of evidence to back it up, I'd be pretty mad. None of this detracts in any way from the catastrophic tolls this bug causes and the amount of work lost. I just think if you don't know what you are doing, you are unlikely to bring anything new to the table here.

[vortext]

Well it would seem to me that anyone who'd taken a city/region to where it needs to be for this problem to materialise is probably the kind of person who's initial response is how do I fix it, ultimately this problem is well known about and I would expect a good percentage of those people to subsequently find this thread. [...]

The problem for me is when someone calls out a file because of a lack of understanding of either how to interpret what they are seeing or the prop pox problem. I don't think it's fair to do this in a public forum [...] I just think if you don't know what you are doing, you are unlikely to bring anything new to the table here.

First of all, in any online community only about 10% of the userbase are active posters. So even when people have the issue, go online and find this thread, the majority will not report it. In other words it's safe to assume the problem is, in fact, underreported.

Now secondly you expect a good percentage of cases being reported - which I firmly believe is not the case - however simultaneously you seem to dismiss those who do report it if they 'don't bring anything new to the table'. This poses somewhat of a paradox. Do you want people to report it or not? While I agree it's not a good idea to start pointing fingers, you have to keep in mind not everyone is sufficiently versed into the technical intricacies to make a proper assessment. Moreover it's completely understandable human nature to start looking for a cause when faced with a very frustrating problem. 

At the point where someone genuinely finds evidence to suggest a Maxis prop is being overridden with an RKT4 prop, I'm certain they'd find a willing volunteer to step in and verify it.

Nitpicking but the issue is not just Maxis props, the issue arises whenever any RKT1 prop is overridden by a RKT4 prop with the same ID and subsequently gets disabled. So say for example someone starts modding custom content, however by lack of oversight also has the duplicate, unmodded file in their plugins. They'd unknowingly and inadvertently run into the pox - and this is not a unrealistic scenario as I've done just so when I started out. 

Moreover the pox only manifests whenever the prop subfile goes over a certain threshold. So all in all it's not easy to verify by any means. Besides, for all we know the pox, i.e. memory corruption might have multiple causes which I for one believe is very much a possibility. Haphazardly shuffling content in and out the plugins might be a cause in and of itself, especially if it were overrides for maxis content like rewards replacements. Not to mention there're quite a number of torrents out there which contain conflicting content.

[Turjan]

Now secondly you presume a good percentage of cases being reported - which I think is not the case - however simultaneously you seem to dismiss those who do report it if they 'don't bring anything new to the table'. This poses somewhat of a paradox. Do you want people to report it or not? While I agree it's not a good idea to start pointing fingers, you have to keep in mind not everyone is sufficiently versed into the technical intricacies to make a proper assessment. Moreover it's completely understandable human nature to start looking for a cause when faced with a very frustrating issue.

That's the gist of it. I saw this as data point. The image is just there to prove that I'm talking about a poxed city, not anything else. I have the problem. I never debated it much (I actually mentioned this already in this thread some pages ago), and I don't point fingers. Edit: The trees on Maxis lots are fine by the way. Those are relots, and the trees are still there even after removal of the mod, as I still have the dependencies for many other mods loaded.

In my first post on this issue I was also very clear on this:

Haphazardly shuffling content in and out the plugins might be a cause in and of itself...

That's exactly what happened here, which is the reason why I am not really heartbroken over this issue. I knew I was doing something risky (or you may call it stupid), but you know how it is if it goes well numerous times: it becomes a habit. I made a backup copy of the region before I did it. The biggy was more or less that I removed the SPAM from the city tile without deleting all fields before the act. That's not a good idea anyway, as it's breaks the demand calculations. However, in the prop poxed city, the tile is full of disabled seasonal props on the field tiles. The city went south as soon as I zoned over a deleted field. A different tile with an even bigger save file with even more props and even more SPAM fields, but where I never tried to delete or zone over the remaining fields, the tile checks out clear, with zero disabled props. My biggest city with only Maxis fields checks out clear, too, with 2 disabled props, but it's still below the risk threshold regarding file size.

Nevertheless, in this case, it's not a real loss and the result of something I did myself and of which everyone will tell you that it's not a good idea. It obviously wasn't. No idea whether any Maxis props are involved at all. So no, no blame meant to be given at all.

[mgb204]

Moreover the pox only manifests whenever the prop subfile goes over a certain threshold. So all in all it's not easy to verify by any means. And in fact for all we know the pox, i.e. memory corruption might have multiple causes which I for one believe is very much a possibility. Haphazardly shuffling content in and out the plugins might be a cause in and of itself, especially if it were overrides for maxis content like rewards replacements. Not to mention there're quite a number of torrents out there which contain conflicting content.

Indeed, I think the way we are pushing the game makes such a likelihood highly probable, I don't think prop pox is a myth, but I do think that the reactions of many are causing harm. You know I'm always up for helping someone out if I can, there is no intention to bury heads in the sand, but as a guy who works on the basis of probability I just can't ignore the one nagging fact, no-one in 6 years has found an instance of this problem that could be tracked down. Again I'm not suggesting people stop trying, but the reality is that most users simply have little to no chance of finding it, even if they do have the skills to seriously get into the problem.

I also believe that most content is made with great care and dedication, if such a file/(s) exists somewhere, then it would be very much a statistical anomaly. But this issue has had a lot of exposure, perhaps I was presumptive to think that most users would report it though, my rational simply being that it takes a certain type of hardcore player to get a 6MB subfile. In my mind that sort of player would be more likely to seek out an explanation and ask questions but I accept your point of view here.