I don't know whether this idea would be better suited to the NAM Team or the RAM Team, but here goes... I think it would be cool to have a set of (heavy) rail puzzle pieces that consist of rail below-grade in an open cut or trench, similar to the Sunken Light Rail puzzle pieces currently being developed as an expansion to the El-rail/GLR/Subway networks. A RL example of such a rail configuration is the Alameda Corridor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alameda_Corridor) here in Los Angeles. Depending on how labor-intensive it would be, I could potentially model the puzzle pieces and a couple of the first stations (I'm envisioning the use of sunken heavy rail for both passenger and freight trains, just like surface-level rail). Is anyone else interested in at least the concept here (or even helping to make it a reality)?
I'm not sure, but I think someone was working on something like this already. I wish I could find the thread, because there are some shockingly cool pics inside...if I find it, I'll let you know
Quote from: cubby420 on April 13, 2010, 04:51:57 PM
I'm not sure, but I think someone was working on something like this already. I wish I could find the thread, because there are some shockingly cool pics inside...if I find it, I'll let you know
I think you mean this
thread by McDrye (http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=7924.0). It hasn't been active in a few months, but the development so far looked rather amazing.
Yep, that'd be the one. Thanks wes.janson!
Check that thread out if you haven't seen it before woodb3kmaster. Some of the pictures of what MsDrye was abe to accomplish will blow your mind.
Thanks for letting me know about that thread, you two! McDrye's work thus far is certainly impressive and would look great as a form of subsurface light rail, but I'm thinking that a more modern style (i.e. concrete) would be more appropriate for what I've suggested - something similar to the Alameda Corridor that I mentioned in my original post:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.acta.org%2Fimages%2Fphotogallery%2Flrg%2F9.jpg&hash=1b2202a91801f5483de0694c76842e897476ca1e)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.acta.org%2Fimages%2Fphotogallery%2Flrg%2F34.jpg&hash=62888fac9397a788394e92d13d476c9b1c33a04e)
Puzzle pieces in this style would be exceptionally easy to model IMO, especially using network textures instead of modeling actual rails, hence my offer to model them. McDrye's pieces are awe-inspiring, and I don't mean to disrespect them at all - they just don't quite fit with my vision for subsurface heavy rail (which seems to be a relatively recent RL innovation). Thoughts?
From a Design point of view, the only way currently known possible to allow the trains to be visible is if the network is Lot Based. This involves the model having Tight Lods such as that like bridges or true s3d. It also involves removing the base texture of the lot file.
However I've never tried this and is just an idea about how to go about it. :P
-Dave
well any set process figured out here is also very much applicable to sunken highways.... with vertical walls.
This would have to work the same as the Sunken Light rail from NOB. These cannot be puzzle pieces as the ground texture can't be removed as Dave said above. They are special TE'd pieces which only really work becasue we have an underground based light rail network in the game (subway). With any other network it wouldn't work if you wanted to cross it with another network really.
Maybe someone who is more knowledgeable than me could comment, but I think this is very unlikely to work. &mmm
The Sunken light Rail from NOB also work with the FLUP puzzle pieces removing the need for subway, a set similar to the FLUPs for Rail could be made to work with sunen rail lots.
Wouldn't these just work as TE lots connected up to the existing Underground Rail network?
There was a mod by XDesign from the STEX that was sunken avenue. Can that be modified for sunken rail?
years ago i was able to fudge this using a series of telots similar to my underpasses and te lots with overhanging props. None of this exists anymore, but with the advent of flups maybe something similar could be tried.
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg140.imageshack.us%2Fimg140%2F6138%2Farteryart13ow1.jpg&hash=ddfdf907d0010a02a82a8e626db639f5ccdaacb8)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg163.imageshack.us%2Fimg163%2F1981%2Farteryart10mr5.jpg&hash=49e4d2a382cb3d2962d6d2c3f0037365d6900241)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg238.imageshack.us%2Fimg238%2F1427%2Farteryart11zi8.jpg&hash=4883d72b6627122e7bf447185655c08eb1a954c5)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg50.imageshack.us%2Fimg50%2F7310%2Farteryart12oe2.jpg&hash=58b2ba016c715a2a5db6f5ec224b333f2e3b37ae)
Bud
buddybud THAT IS BRILLIANT! that looks really great, it's a great shame that none of it exists anymore.
i was about to mention that..... once you have finished your elevated rail skin, this has surely got to be top priority...
Buddybud - I'm speakless. &apls
May is it possible to connect the Sunken Road with a ramp-street to bring the street to the ground level?
Good day,
I would rather do that instead of FLUP than Subway.
Greeting DJPTiger
thanx Jaster, ya it's a shame it's gone. Mightygoose, I was afraid you'd say something like that....
QuoteMay is it possible to connect the Sunken Road with a ramp-street to bring the street to the ground level?
nekseb In the top picture you can see a 2x1 road coming down into the sunken area. It was perfectly functional.
QuoteI would rather do that instead of FLUP than Subway.
djptiger, yes it would be way easier with flups plus more practical, this is from 3 or 4 years back and i'm in no way suggesting we implement this as i conceived it. It's not practical at all. But may be the ideas can be updated and explored further.
Ok how it works. I'll use the top picture as an example cause we can see the lots. Here it is again color coded 1 (red)at the two ends and center are the tunnel entrances using pieces modded identical to my te underpasses. 2(blue)in the sunken highway are 2 2x1 te lots, the longer the better. They not only serve to hold part of the walls in place but when longer lots are used the ground can be leveled behind them at the proper height, in the same manner in which you do behind my te underpasses. 3(light blue) Beside the highway are 3 1x1 parks that serve for holders for wall filler using overhanging props. These fill in the wall gaps between the telots. 4(black) Actual road bits to hold it all together and also make the ramp.
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg708.imageshack.us%2Fimg708%2F4694%2Farteryart14pw1.jpg&hash=e91f83cca1b7267470e0638bd8ee87d00c87dc76)
Problems. 1. Well the first is obvious. You can't just plop something like this down. You gotta prepare the ground extensively.
2. With roads etc you get pedestrians wandering around down their weather you like it or not. The single zot roads holding it together generate pedestrians as long as there are lots backing against any of the road zots. Also people will drive to and leave work directly into and out of the sunken bit if the road zots touch the property.
3. No idea how any kind of slope along the length of the corridor would be handled.
4. Buildings that are slope conforming have to be demo-ed, to fill in behind the lots properly...kinda annoying after awhile.
In short this could be done in a similar fashion for rail without the pedestrian issues, but either way it is far from a friendly process. If it all could be replaced with ploppable puzzle pieces similar to flops but still with the ability to pull the ground up around the puzzle piece i think something could be thrown together.
I'll see if i can find anymore detailed photos.
oh also a side note. You can use te lots at the top along the side, to have roads or rail run directly beside the corridor, but that was a REAL hassle to get everything in place. They have to be staggered with the sunken te lots if i remember correctly.
Hope this is helpful in some way.
Cheers
Bud
Edit
Whatever happened to this from ardecila, it was posted in my underbridge scenery thread a couple years ago.
QuoteThat's real, guys - and there's no retaining wall lots on either side. The train is actually 10 meters below grade. This is just 1, 1x6 open cut lot, connected on the ends to an upcoming puzzle piece (which will not be in the new NAM, unfortunately). The only defect is that the ground plane occasionally covers up the train - toggling underground mode fixes it.
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm1.static.flickr.com%2F146%2F346372147_acf77be9f3_o.jpg&hash=0b59a87b272155cad279398511bdb2f39371c3ce)
sorry for the double post but i thought this was significant.
inspired by ardecila picture i decided to mess with transit models directly...i had a hunch. I made a 3 sided box as seen below. The top is at a 0.0 height and the wall and floor extend below ground. I used 3 identical textures. The texture at the top had standard transparency applied. The two boxes below ground...the wall and floor if you will...i applied the settings to the textures as seen below.
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg685.imageshack.us%2Fimg685%2F8742%2Fcrazytrain02.jpg&hash=1a2d9af6226c196800e49669c49614454938ef22)
these are the results i got.
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg413.imageshack.us%2Fimg413%2F4553%2Fcrazytrain01.jpg&hash=1d031c73aa112ada69823ef01504d564a2c460a9)
the black is all below ground. You can see the shadow for the eltrain lying at ground level above the train. Also seen now is the issue with visibility though some elements like the train and the old el shadow show. in the case of props it totally overwrites everything. The below ground wall appears only at proper angles but the ground rectangle does not work properly. This is my first attempt so more messing with the texture settings will give different results. I think the depth info is key here. Different models for different rotations will help...but a setting to make props and buildings also visible in front of the pieces would need to be found. This does not seem to be affected by the ground bug and has no lodding of any sort.
If i'm redoing the wheel here let me know.... :P
thoughts anyone
Bud
Edit
Got it playing properly with props....changed the sunken base to green to see it better. But it still won't hide itself for ground textures. If i can figure out that i'm laughing. also added the second wall both of which only appear at the right angles.....just the sunken base won't co-operate.
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg291.imageshack.us%2Fimg291%2F8071%2Fcrazytrain03.jpg&hash=50ae4a98b353f593d5bfe80eab5c3eab7c67e3ef)
:o
when you get going bud..... :thumbsup:
thanx chaco.
i've tried all kinds of variations on the texture settings. The most significant and annoying thing is i can make the sunken part appear correctly but not have the train visible or the opposite like seen above.....and that there's probably thousands of combination's. I don't really know how these settings work but there seems to be a hierarchy for visibility. Also parts of the train should not be seen that are below the edge of the wall....and i know nothing about automata.
But i'll keep playing with it tonight and see what comes up.
oh and also modifying the texture on one group in the model changes how other textures in different groups are projected on screen. Another reason i suspect there is a hierarchy.
I'm very impressed! What was thought impossible until now has been demonstrated to have serious potential. Well done, buddybud! I'd give you a k-point if I could...
Quote from: woodb3kmaster on April 15, 2010, 09:08:50 PM
I'm very impressed! What was thought impossible until now has been demonstrated to have serious potential. Well done, buddybud! I'd give you a k-point if I could...
I can and did for you. Looks great guys.
Well i had no more luck last night. but i feel like trying again today. Essentially every change in the material settings makes different aspects of the game appear in front or behind my models. sometimes trees sometimes buildings, props, overlays etc. So there's reason to believe it's just a matter of settings. Also i might want to try to using some s3d network props via t21 to see if a combination works.....Anyways i'm intrigued since it seems so close...again...when i get all the overlays working then the automata won't appear....when i get the automata to appear there are overlay issues....argh very frustrating. I'm going to have try different texture types also plus check out other existing model texture settings....hmmmm
anyways a bit of detail.
im using a standard network model built in reader overwriting the el
the model is comprised of four groups, ceiling, wallx2 and floor.
the ceiling is transparent and at 0.0 ground level.
walls and floor are not transparent and extend 8.5 meters below grade as do the paths.
essentially i'm just playing with the depth settings in unison with others for each of the groups texture material settings.
thats it.
if anyone has any ideas or knowledge please pm me or post etc
Bud
This is great :thumbsup:
But it's hard to follow, but there's 2 things I've noticed. You seem to have the model below ground? Are you trying to remake your old set, because in that all the models would have been above ground? (though this seems like something you would already know, so I guess you not trying to remake your old set?)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg685.imageshack.us%2Fimg685%2F8742%2Fcrazytrain02.jpg&hash=1a2d9af6226c196800e49669c49614454938ef22)
In this image you have not ticked the Depth Test box.
Maybe that helps or maybe it insults you ;) (hopefully the first)
sorry it's so hard to follow.....this stuff at the bottom is all new. It is below ground....and is not a remake of my old stuff...completely different.
Im trying to make a real network below grade using the el as a template and that s3d model seen above....with an additional wall. Right now its draggable because it overwrites the el straight piece.
Essentially i wanted to try to make a below grade nam puzzle piece like what nob did with his below grade glr. i might be remaking the wheel here since i'm not familiar with how this all works and i've yet to go through the private boards.
QuoteIn this image you have not ticked the Depth Test box.
yes, thats how i've been getting results is by trying different combinations of the depth settings
QuoteMaybe that helps or maybe it insults you Wink (hopefully the first)
not at all....i'm in over my head :thumbsup:
edit...this pic makes more sense...in this screen shot the automata does not appear and props get hidden....but you can see it's below grade. I added Batted Wall Props to see if they can be seen below grade and that worked, i think because you are viewing them through the transparent top of the model...
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg402.imageshack.us%2Fimg402%2F1600%2Fcrazytrain04.jpg&hash=a4495d95939eddb046740a84307c790b32229b2d)
Edit heres how it looks with the automata (train) showing.....see how it now overlays across the hydro wires and the below grade walls that should be hidden arent. i removed the wall on the visible side by the way.
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg696.imageshack.us%2Fimg696%2F1224%2Fcrazytrain05.jpg&hash=3e9d47f9feadcde03af77e126e1dcf94c07c8188)
another update.....i transformed the network model into a network prop and placed it via t21. It worked the same way. Network props don't bend so there's gaps on slopes...the interesting thing is we can see how its the model allowing the automata to show.....here's a pic to explain...
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg534.imageshack.us%2Fimg534%2F3803%2Fcrazytrain06.jpg&hash=4aafe9540d6269b8e3f40b6d5f25bbee64ccb134)
Don't know what it means but there ya go.
a little update.
first it seems simply having a model below ground with texture with a depth function set to "greater" allows the automata below ground to be viewable against it. If the texture has alpha enabled the automata only appears when it crosses over non-transparent parts of the texture. The problem is that the texture and the automata appear overtop all other projections that should be infront of them.
i changed the model by using a network prop with the depth function set to "greater" inside an identical network model that is slightly bigger and has the depth function set to "less than or equal" the network model serves as a lod and works somewhat. It's the best i can come up with so far but there are still overlay issues though atleast it doesnt bleed over into the adjacent tiles now.
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg6.imageshack.us%2Fimg6%2F3940%2Fcrazytrain07.jpg&hash=9c8c104761d1955e00c0bd879133373ba12f5a23)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg694.imageshack.us%2Fimg694%2F9194%2Fcrazytrain08.jpg&hash=a0cef31e01025250474a5ea3bc96ce4ecf554de2)
and heres a test dat for anyone who wants to play with it as seen above. Maybe someone can figure out more....place it after all loads. plus i did not have nam loaded when i did this. It replaces the straight el piece.
Cheers
edit....most interesting results so far, and ill stop here for now. Everything paints over the below grade model properly. But the ground texture returned. Of note is the train below grade is still fully visible....but still it insists on overlaying across items.
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg688.imageshack.us%2Fimg688%2F9816%2Fcrazytrain09.jpg&hash=d608aca5b93ec6f557b32df775f307132b413845)
Interesting. I will be sure to follow this project! ;)
Beautiful! :thumbsup:
A bit of a pity that those sunken roads will never be released... :(
They look so pretty. &cry2
this is fantastic! :o
Joe
Would removing the back face of those walls help?
actually i'm sorry i didn't update here sooner...the above attempt proved to be a dead end as far as i could figure it. It was a merely an experiment that failed. The persistent problem is the ground texture...oh well.
However the sunken road pictures i posted a page back will work if changed to flups, though some one would have to make models and do the necessary modding since my example were long lost.
Bud
Interesting, buddybud. It's unfortunate that a network reskin isn't feasible (or so I think you mean), but there's still hope. It sounds like we would be able to make sunken rail workable if it's puzzle piece-based. Thanks for working so hard on this idea!