I've been thinking as of late this community has really settled in and the need for some restrictions posed on members since this site's founding can be relaxed a bit. One of these includes the karma system, or the ability to add (or take away) reputation to another member.
This ability was stripped sometime in 2007 due to neglectance by some members. I believe back then you needed to have 100 posts or so and good standing in the community to use this feature in a certain quantity. Nowadays only site staff and trusted members have the ability to use this feature.
Now that some time has passed (5 years!), would it be plausible to return the karma ability back to these original prerequisites or perhaps something similar? I think the community has earned it.
I look forward to hearing what all of you have to say on the matter.
Thanks and all the best,
-Ryan (Haljackey)
I am in favour of the current system. I'm afraid bringing it back to the original prerequisites would devalue the karma system quite a bit and probably will re-introduce the problems the old system had, and while most of that can be solved by mods, it's something I personally wouldn't want to spend time on. Entirely personal opinion though.
I think this is a worthy discussion to have. I personally have been in favor of a karma system, as long as there's checks and balances to prevent it from being abused. The abuse of it got particularly problematic back in 2007, and that prompted the lockdown to staff-only. We have actually relaxed the system a little in the past few months, and have gradually started granting karma privileges to select regular members. The old post-count threshold was problematic, so I don't anticipate we'd return to that approach, though I am fairly certain that the group of members who will have karma privileges will expand into the future under our current approach.
-Alex
As Alex said recently more people have been given the ability to give or take karma from members. I think it's a good thing, that way we have more opinions on the matter.
But it has a limit. I personally believe giving everyone that capacity will result in a total chaos of the Karma system. Give some people will use it fully on their friends and will not use it to valorize members that did something good for the community. I fear that and I can bet my left arm this will happen if the karma system point is open to everyone.
I also agree with Casper regarding the work it will give to the moderator. They already have a big amount of work, so charging them with the " Karma system security and prevention " Will only make their work harder to do.
But an idea if we put the Karma system back to the old ways, even for a test period of time, would be to create something as I said just before "Karma system security and prevention team" or something like that. It'll be a team composed of regular loyal members who are in charge of regulating the karma system and sanction any abuse. But this of course only if the Karma system is taking the old ways.
Just my opinion as well.
I would oppose any sudden rush to change things. The expanding of k-point enabled people is great and it sounds great to continue expansion as was mentioned. It seems there were a couple years of real "karma drought" and too me it's a bit unfair to the people that really shined during that time to earn their points (Lowkee33 & jondor come to mind but there are certainly others) suddenly have them inflated away. In the last year it feels like there's been a real increase in K-points, CMLs, etc that had almost died out and that's awesome. But if we're already going in the right direction does it make sense to make a drastic change?
It needs to be tweaked a little, but it shouldn't go back to a free for all(I admit I was not around for those days but I have been on boards as ADMIN where there were free for all's on Karma type things).
One site I was admin at, used Karma points as a way to gain rank and more privileges, and it was abused to high hell and back, because if you needed 100 Karma points to get to the next rank, people would give a karma point for saying "I agree" on a post and not elaborate. I spent many an hour going through karma points looking for BS points, and I sure wouldn't want to see anyone here doing that, especially when the ones doing it, may be involved in on going projects right now.
I wouldn't go for the Free For All method too. I see that on SimTropolis and often the people with the most karma are often the most frequent posters, no matter how big or significant or well-thought their contributions are. Therefore I'd like to keep the current system, but it's OK to spread it out over more entrusted members...
I'm a member on a Greek forum as well. In this forum, everybody can add or remove karma points, but! If you're going to hit "like" or "dislike", you must also give the reason. You can't just hit a button, you must explain why. This method not only discourage any kind of trolling, but it's also useful for the moderators.
Just my 2 cents :)
First let me start by saying that the Karma Point System was and still is very important to Jeroni and it was him that was the most disappointed to how this system was abused many years ago from all levels, from the newest member all the way up to the staff. People were getting multiply points for the same action/reason, some not really noteworthy and some members even handed out negative ones as a joke.
A fact - Karma points have always needed a reason, just look at the Karma Point Log near the bottom of the forums page. You can easily see the last three awarded points and if you click on the pie circle to the left you should be able to see all the Karma points handed out since 2008.
Karma points were to be handed out as a disciplinary action but primarily as a reward for great things to those that show they have worked extra hard in what they have done. Now this includes the new member that may be having a hard time with the game and has a break through that we have noticed and the game has become that much easier for him/herself and maybe even helped out a few others as well. It also goes all the way up to the members that make an exciting new discovery, made a new modd/BAT....or new whatever, but not every time for the exact same reason every time. (Hope that makes sense). For instance....Alex (Tarkus) should not get a Karma point for every new thing he does for the NAM, this is what he does......I should not get a Karma point for every new update I make in my MD. And this is exactly what started to happen all those years ago. I remember someone gave a Karma point to someone for a mediocre reason and that person gave one back as a thanks. This is not how Jeroni envisioned the system should work and he turned it off to ALL. Some time later it was turned back on to Admins with such guidelines and rules as he put in place. Since then there have been a few deserving members who now have this privilege with the thought in the back of their minds that it would be taken away instantly if they were to abuse it.
I can tell you all with the utmost certainty the way it is set up today, this will not change any time soon. The Admins may choose to include more members into this privilege more often going forward, but this system will never be for all to use ever again.
If anyone thinks they or someone else deserves this privilege, feel free to PM myself or any other Admin with name and reason and we will discuss this and get back to you as soon as possible.
Robin
Obviously everyone likes to see their actions in support of a forum the one community be recognized although i never really paid much attention to this.
Of course, if a system is to distinguish contributor from other visitors this should really use some parameters.
This should especially appreciate those who turn their attention to answering the questions and issues as well as those that provide tutorials and innovations to the game in this case.
Unfortunately it freely assign any participant really devalues the intent recognition for just being really abused.
Situations such as on another site known where newly arrived have triple of points compared to the number of posts.
Great inputs everyone, thanks for sharing!
It seems as though most of you are against going back to the way things were, and for good reasons. This has given me a lot to think about as it also seems many of you are in favor of changing the current system.
Now I wouldn't call these 'proposals', but would any of these be a good way to improve the karma system?
1. Give out a limited quantity of karma points a member can give (or take away) to well-established members every now and then. These would not be stackable.
-For example, say members were allowed to give 3 karma points a month but they only use one. They would only go up to 3 the next month instead of 5.
2. Set up some sort of application form that members can submit if they're interested in using the karma system. Staff/committee members would then decide weather or not to approve said member. A quantity of K-points could also be issued. Abuse of the system would result in loss of privileges and/or further action.
3. Come up with new 'ground rules' before members can issue karma points. This could relate to post count, status in a team, etc.
Also, keep in mind I am not comparing SC4D's karma system to Simtropolis' reputation system. That site is more associated to the 'like' system on Facebook or the upvote/downvote system on Reddit with no dislike function. Karma could also be limited to one per post to avoid duplicate K-points.
Again, just thinking aloud here and not saying something has to be done. Thanks for your feedback!
-Ryan (Haljackey)
Quote from: Haljackey on September 20, 2012, 10:24:11 AM
2. Set up some sort of application form that members can submit if they're interested in using the karma system. Staff/committee members would then decide weather or not to approve said member. A quantity of K-points could also be issued. Abuse of the system would result in loss of privileges and/or further action.
This is also what I am thinking and have suggestted in my post above.
It may not be public knowledge to everyone here at SC4D, but anyone can already send a PM with the persons name and good reason why this memebr should recieve a Karma Point to any staff member. In every case I can remember the Karma Point has been given out with the requesters name in part of the reason in the Karma Log. At least that is the way I do it. This system has been working for a few years now and I think pretty successfully. When I became an Admin, I looked for good reasons to hand out Karma Points, especially to those that didn't have any. I have awarded a lot of Karma Points on others behalf and I am sure that all the Staff members are very willing to do the same.
The staff has already started talking about the Karma Point system and how it can be improved, but I am sure the idea that Hal and I are talking about is the way we will keep on running the system except as far as I can tell Karma Points can not be handed out like Hal is suggestting. A member can either work the system or not.
Robin
I would think that most people are aware that one can request a K-point to be given to another member through an admin, etc. I've requested a number through others and the admins, etc have been nothing but helpful. I would say that until recently it seems like more K-points were given out through somebody than by somebody. If you check the karma logs or people's reputation you see it everywhere.
Barring a situation that seems abusive I think any member in good standing can feel pretty confident that if they see someone do something that they think deserves special recognition they're karma suggestion will be honored. If you're not sure, as Robin says, just ask :)
If there's a formal application system I'd imagine it would be very hard to turn any applicant down, unless you had some kind of relatively strict criteria, and then you're getting back into that "post count" territory that was part of the problem system in the beginning.
I don't want to sound negative, scared of change, or down on anybody's ideas. The integrity of the Karma system is something I do care about though--I remember the first time I got a K-point I was really pleasantly surprised. My little mushroom eating hedgehog got a bit of extra strut in his step, and I made my girlfriend and who knows how many other people that couldn't care less about SC4 listen to me tell all about it :D If some others feel like that than that's awesome and I hope they continue to be able to in the future.
QuoteFor instance....Alex (Tarkus) should not get a Karma point for every new thing he does for the NAM, this is what he does......I should not get a Karma point for every new update I make in my MD.
I can agree and disagree with giving a point for someone like Alex(Tarkus). In a way I agree he shouldn't, since he is part of a team and has been doing this for years, but I also disagree on those very same reasons, because he is doing this on his own for free and spending long hours doing it as well. To me, anyone who has been working on the elevated networks the past couple months/years deserve to be rewarded for the time and effort put in, along with any person involved in the future expansions that tie in as well, because without them, the game would be stagnant and they are doing it on their own time out of love for the users and the game. Just because "it is what he does", does not mean he should not be rewarded as well. Would you appreciate someone saying "well you did a great job and saved us this much money the past year, but we are not going to give you anything since its your job and its what you do?". I bet 99% of the people here would not like being told that.
I do like that I can recommend a point for someone and then a staff member says agree or disagree though, so it does work well in that aspect.
And yes an update to a MD is not kharma worthy, that I can agree with. But I do think some exceptions could be made to that as well, especially if its an update that is truly unique(which there have been a few recently). In the "show me your intersection" thread, someone made an awesome common looking interchange, but the details put into that common interchange with surroundings and tree's and other things, made that interchange stand out better than others who have built the same type of interchange, that should be rewarded IMO.
mike3775, I think you may be missing the point.
Too many Karma Points were being handed out for the same reasons and/or wrong reasons. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure the NAM Team will be getting a lot of Karma Points when something new comes out.....but a point to each member when this happens, maybe even an extra one. I think the mentality all those years ago wasn't who deserves the Karma Point, but I think many were thinking they deserved to hand them out. Jeroni (and the rest of the Staff) does not want Karma Points to get watered down and over used, than they are no longer have the meaning. As I have said earlier, when a newbie has a break through of some sort, that is Karma worthy, at least the first time and it's just the same to the member that continually knocks out top notch BATs and/or modds. Now if that same new member has a break through every week, he is not getting a Karma Point each time, just as that BATTer or Modder should not get a Karma Point for every new thing they do. And believe me, the members that BAT and Modd, they do it for fun, praise and at the least the possiblity of a surprise Karma Point. Let's take SimGoober as an example with over 300 BATs, should his Karma be 300 plus for every BAT and all the help he has given over the years?
We, the Staff don't want to make up rules and guidlines because all the points that have been handed out may not fit in the criteria but at the same time we thought was Karma worthy. Situations moving forward may also fall The Karma Point System was and still is to be fun and as a special award. This site is well known to be a serious place for memebers to come share ideas and learn, and not a overly social type site. This is why the Karma Point System is so important to Jeroni.
The Karma Point System has been working fairly well for the past years and in my opinion slowly improving as well with the new members that have been granted to use this privilege. I expect at least one or two new members a month going forward and we'll see how it goes from there.
Please don't over analyse what I am saying here. Just know that we are doing the best we can and look forward to seeing who will be added next.
Robin
I just want to make sure members are properly rewarded for their effort. That is what this all comes down to, and that is the purpose of the karma system.
With the ability to issue karma in the 'hands of the few', I feel that some work/posts that are karma-worthy may be overlooked by these members as there are not enough eyes to spot everything. In a perfect world, the margin of error would go down if more members had the ability to issue karma since there would be more eyes.
The recent developments in this thread has got me thinking on another plausible approach. Instead of having members apply for karma-giving status, why not set up a form or a thread dedicated to issuing karma. Members here would indicate who they think deserves a karma point, where that work/post is found and reason to argue why they think it is deserved.
-Either that or make an announcement stating that all members can freely PM a staff member regarding issuing karma on their behalf.
Keeping the integrity of the system is key, but I feel the ability to issue karma should be more accessible to members than it is now. That's the whole reason I started this discussion.
All the best,
-Ryan (Haljackey)
Quote from: Haljackey on September 21, 2012, 10:03:52 AMThe recent developments in this thread has got me thinking on another plausible approach. Instead of having members apply for karma-giving status, why not set up a form or a thread dedicated to issuing karma. Members here would indicate who they think deserves a karma point, where that work/post is found and reason to argue why they think it is deserved.
-Either that or make an announcement stating that all members can freely PM a staff member regarding issuing karma on their behalf.
... Except for that you can ask a Moderator/admin.
Quote from: Haljackey on September 21, 2012, 10:03:52 AM
The recent developments in this thread has got me thinking on another plausible approach. Instead of having members apply for karma-giving status, why not set up a form or a thread dedicated to issuing karma. Members here would indicate who they think deserves a karma point, where that work/post is found and reason to argue why they think it is deserved.
I like this idea, let me talk it over with the Staff.
Quote from: Haljackey on September 21, 2012, 10:03:52 AM
-Either that or make an announcement stating that all members can freely PM a staff member regarding issuing karma on their behalf.
All members can do this now.
It is now official and added to the News Ticker at the top of the furoms page.
All SC4D members can freely PM any Staff member regarding issuing Karma Points to a deserving member on their behalf.
I think the system is generally correct but may have defects. It seems to me quite right that only some members/admins can give K-point, or any member on request through the administrators. However I think it could be a few more members who can give K-points to prevent the overlooked posts like Haljakey said (I understand that new adessions like Noahclem, Girafe, art128 and Haljackey go in this direction.).
On the other hand the criteria to a K-point sometimes seem a little confused. Especially when you're newbie it is difficult to find a rule on the criteria below. For example an user can receive a K-point to help with one post to another user and another user who is helping others often do not get any K-point. This is a bit disconcerting especially for new members as I was. Some posts before rooker explain the reason of diferent criteria and is good to know the position of admins about it. Of course if you do some kind of post and you know you will receive a K-point, are not a surprise and lose a little excitement.
Sorry if I didn't contribute with new ideas, but I wanted to resume a bit my ideas although it is difficult for me to express it in English.
Anyway this is an interesting topic. I have known a bit more of SC4D History ;D
Edit: Sometime ago, I was thinking why the members who enter his MD to the HoF, and who win the Picture Competition of all the year don't receive a K-point?. When someone (only 2 users a year) achieving this it means that has made a great contribution to the community.
Rooker, I am not saying someone should get a point from 300+ people or per bat released, but that exceptional things should be rewarded, and that should include bats or MD entries that fit a narrow spec.
I am trying to change the way I play the game by looking through various MD's on this site, and seeing various interchanges and stuff shown in threads. There are some bats that may not be realistic, but they are simply great, and those users should get recognized. I feel that people like the staff here, and even some team members should all be given a kharma point for the work that they have done, including yourself rooker, because I have been admin on other types of sites and know full well the issues that you guys on staff have to go through when it comes to keeping this place running smoothly, considering how some members are a tad impulsive and demand things ASAP, etc. But in my case, I have no idea if say Catty can give Kharma to say you Rooker1, because some sites, its set up where that can only be given to same level or down(so Mods could give to other mods and members, but not Global mods or Admin), so who would I send a Kharma point recommendation to in order to give staff here a point? Or would requesting such a thing be considered spamming? Thats another thing I feel should be spelled out better as well.
Quote from: mike3775 on September 21, 2012, 02:34:36 PM
...I have no idea if say Catty can give Kharma to say you Rooker1...
You can't give karma points to yourself, but otherwise I can give out karma points to anyone on site, as to what criteria I use or reasons why I give out karma;
a. if I notice any request in any of the topics from someone asking to give someone else karma;
b. if someone uses the "Report to Moderator" button to ask for karma for someone;
c. if someone has helped someone else and its obvious they have put some time and/or effort into doing so;
d. if someone has done something or said something that I felt deserved a karma point;
and looking at the karma log I've only taken karma off someone once and that was for being rude to someone who was trying to help them with a problem they were having.
and yes we probably could do with handing out more karma points to people but equally we don't want to lose that here on SC4D its something special
Quote from: noahclem on September 20, 2012, 12:21:06 PM
...I don't want to sound negative, scared of change, or down on anybody's ideas. The integrity of the Karma system is something I do care about though--I remember the first time I got a K-point I was really pleasantly surprised. My little mushroom eating hedgehog got a bit of extra strut in his step, and I made my girlfriend and who knows how many other people that couldn't care less about SC4 listen to me tell all about it :D If some others feel like that than that's awesome and I hope they continue to be able to in the future.
-catty
I have a curious question - how much negative karma points are obtainable at most, and is there a number that follows after the ban? Otherwise, I want to give a positive first accurate to a few people
Tarkus, Maarten (MandelSoft),Robin, vortext and Dexter - whom should I contact to make this fact?
Quote from: ivo_su on September 22, 2012, 02:28:52 AM
Otherwise, I want to give a positive first accurate to a few people
Tarkus, Maarten (MandelSoft),Robin, vortext and Dexter - whom should I contact to make this fact?
Send a PM to admins, global mods or others users who can give K-points with the reasons you think they deserve a K-point. ;)
Quote from: Kergelen on September 22, 2012, 03:23:45 AM
Quote from: ivo_su on September 22, 2012, 02:28:52 AM
Otherwise, I want to give a positive first accurate to a few people
Tarkus, Maarten (MandelSoft),Robin, vortext and Dexter - whom should I contact to make this fact?
Send a PM to admins, global mods or others users who can give K-points with the reasons you think they deserve a K-point. ;)
Thanks for the information, but it seems to me too complex and hardly dealt me so much. Pity really deserved these guys.
Quote from: ivo_su on September 22, 2012, 03:40:43 AM
Quote from: Kergelen on September 22, 2012, 03:23:45 AM
Quote from: ivo_su on September 22, 2012, 02:28:52 AM
Otherwise, I want to give a positive first accurate to a few people
Tarkus, Maarten (MandelSoft),Robin, vortext and Dexter - whom should I contact to make this fact?
Send a PM to admins, global mods or others users who can give K-points with the reasons you think they deserve a K-point. ;)
Thanks for the information, but it seems to me too complex and hardly dealt me so much. Pity really deserved these guys.
What's complexe in that?
You just send a PM to, lets say Rooker1 with the name of the guys you said, and the reason why each one deserve another K-point. It's not that hard.
Quote from: catty on September 21, 2012, 07:23:27 PM
Quote from: mike3775 on September 21, 2012, 02:34:36 PM
...I have no idea if say Catty can give Kharma to say you Rooker1...
You can't give karma points to yourself, but otherwise I can give out karma points to anyone on site, as to what criteria I use or reasons why I give out karma;
a. if I notice any request in any of the topics from someone asking to give someone else karma;
b. if someone uses the "Report to Moderator" button to ask for karma for someone;
c. if someone has helped someone else and its obvious they have put some time and/or effort into doing so;
d. if someone has done something or said something that I felt deserved a karma point;
and looking at the karma log I've only taken karma off someone once and that was for being rude to someone who was trying to help them with a problem they were having.
and yes we probably could do with handing out more karma points to people but equally we don't want to lose that here on SC4D its something special
Quote from: noahclem on September 20, 2012, 12:21:06 PM
...I don't want to sound negative, scared of change, or down on anybody's ideas. The integrity of the Karma system is something I do care about though--I remember the first time I got a K-point I was really pleasantly surprised. My little mushroom eating hedgehog got a bit of extra strut in his step, and I made my girlfriend and who knows how many other people that couldn't care less about SC4 listen to me tell all about it :D If some others feel like that than that's awesome and I hope they continue to be able to in the future.
-catty
Thanks for that info.
Quote from: ivo_su on September 22, 2012, 02:28:52 AM
I have a curious question - how much negative karma points are obtainable at most, and is there a number that follows after the ban? Otherwise, I want to give a positive first accurate to a few people
Tarkus, Maarten (MandelSoft),Robin, vortext and Dexter - whom should I contact to make this fact?
Hi
ivo_suThe negative karma points and people being banned are separate,
its what you do or usually continue to do that gets you banned not how many negative karma points you have, as for your request to give karma points to the above people I do need a reason why you want them to have a positive karma point.
Cathy
Quote from: catty on September 22, 2012, 12:13:53 PM
Quote from: ivo_su on September 22, 2012, 02:28:52 AM
I have a curious question - how much negative karma points are obtainable at most, and is there a number that follows after the ban? Otherwise, I want to give a positive first accurate to a few people
Tarkus, Maarten (MandelSoft),Robin, vortext and Dexter - whom should I contact to make this fact?
Hi ivo_su
The negative karma points and people being banned are separate, its what you do or usually continue to do that gets you banned not how many negative karma points you have, as for your request to give karma points to the above people I do need a reason why you want them to have a positive karma point.
Cathy
Cathy, Ivo_su PMed me for the K-points.
the reason given are:
The reasons are too long but overall assistance in working with networks have given my textures path numbers and so on.
http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=1444.2540 - vortext
Dexter with texture and alpha as sent in the PM
Robin helped me with finding Gary sea walls. Maarten and Alex have given me advice, path numbers, and the opportunity to test their products before they are released.
Quote from: art128 on September 22, 2012, 12:29:18 PM
...Cathy, Ivo_su PMed me for the K-points. ...
:thumbsup:
Thanks I'm sending you a PM
ivo_su much as I'm sure that "Tarkus, Maarten (MandelSoft),Robin, vortext and Dexter" appreciate your request for giving them karma points, I don't think that issuing retroactive karma points is the way to go as it opens the door to requests from people going back to who knows when ...
so for me my list of criteria has to include that the request to give someone a karma point is being asked for at the same time that person is doing something karma worthier, which gives us a chance to judge for ourselves
-catty
Global Moderator
You see, I was right when I said it was too complicated and not worth the effort to reward someone who has helped you. Here God is my witness that I had good intentions and reasons for these 5 people, but ...
Anyway, the important thing is that they have my gratitude with or without karma points, but I guess they have already seen that I've done my best to give it to them. Ultimately, the approval procedure karma points is so complex that it is easier to become a Nobel laureate, than to have karma point. Otherwise, anyone know who the user with the most negative karma points and how they are (perhaps -10)?
K point is good for the forum but something similar could clearly be done for the people who are feeding the LEX and are not awarded for hours of batting / hundred releases...
These people are contributing to our community and especially sc4devotion's community as much as people on the forum but in another way.
Quote from: Girafe on September 22, 2012, 04:52:37 PM
K point is good for the forum but something similar could clearly be done for the people who are feeding the LEX and are not awarded for hours of batting / hundred releases...
These people are contributing to our community and especially sc4devotion's community as much as people on the forum but in another way.
Hi Girafe
The admin staff have been having discussions re this and also on the LEX scrutineers, if you have any suggestions on how or what you would like to see happen in these two areas can you please PM me ... that goes for anyone else who has any suggestions re Girafe post.
thanks
-catty
Global Moderator
Quote from: catty on September 23, 2012, 11:36:56 AM
The admin staff have been having discussions re this and also on the LEX scrutineers, if you have any suggestions on how or what you would like to see happen in these two areas can you please PM me ... that goes for anyone else who has any suggestions re Girafe post.
Anyway you can bring the conversation here or at least give us important development from it? It may influence the discussion in this thread.
There is different ways for awarding people on a forum. For time we have:
- karma point for the forum
- CMLs
- categories in relationship with posts counting (system which uses stages.)
The first is based on figures (+1 /-1), the second by an image and more personalized and the last one figures too, associated to stages.
IMHO, the last system could be the best for awarding LEX contributors.
I think we can easily integer in the member's profile, a line under karma point with a title like this:
"LEX contributor level" (something to work again my English is not so good).
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ld-host.de%2Fuploads%2Fimages%2F66df8f86cada28483bcd51b8e823cfaf.jpg&hash=4af32534d6486e86c67dbf651b539e64b330f084)
Regarding the scale, I like the scale with "precious stones" as it's clearly recognisable and often used in forums
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ld-host.de%2Fuploads%2Fimages%2Fb45b7e7775c7ec269f2c1f1d046c9536.jpg&hash=57dd3c28ccae9a7c0c605e7ceb11b40958a339e8)
The main question is what figures to take in account for the scale.
There are 3 points according to me
- number of uploads (it's not the best system IMHO because it doesn't take in account the complexity of an upload)
- quality of upload (too subjective)
- number of downloads (I think this figure is the most representative and the less subjective).
We could set for example:
stage bronze = 10.000 uploads (for all releases of 1 author)
stage silver = 50.000 uploads
...
The chance we have with this system is that there are only 94 authors on the LEX and that the number of downloads by authors is quickly accessible.
Second question is how to deal with something like that.
Either we have a group who check every 2 weeks / 1 per month and actualises figures and upgrade member level. (it's a little bit long but could be done as we have few authors).
Or we let authors check themselves the data available on the LEX and ask an admin when a stage is reached for changing the level - less time consuming and something that could work fine.
The only difficult point, I have found with this system is the case of NAM members
Quote from: Girafe on September 23, 2012, 02:10:01 PM
- number of downloads (I think this figure is the most representative and the less subjective).
I don't know. Maps often get less downloads than BATs and MODs but most of the time making a map requires a lot of work, maybe equal work to a good quality BAT.
Quote from: Haljackey on September 23, 2012, 02:06:17 PM
...Anyway you can bring the conversation here or at least give us important development from it? It may influence the discussion in this thread.
Its been more :-\ things up in the air, so your ideas and suggestions are very welcome, we may not be able to do them or they may not be something that the site wants to do, but we will seriously contemplate any ideas anyone has, back when dedgren was still active, there had talk about giving subscribers their own private board its still up there for discuss.
Hi
GirafeI like your idea, but I'm not sure that with the current site software its something we can do and as
art128 says a download count may not be be an accurate reflection of people's work, if you look at the snapshot you took of my profile
Quote from: Girafe on September 23, 2012, 02:10:01 PM
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ld-host.de%2Fuploads%2Fimages%2F66df8f86cada28483bcd51b8e823cfaf.jpg&hash=4af32534d6486e86c67dbf651b539e64b330f084)
You can all see I belong to the LEX Scrutineer Group, I'm wondering and
this is only my suggestion is if we had a LEX Uploader Group with an appropriate label, and that group had the same privileges, etc as a subscriber does ... how you would feel about that as an idea.
-catty
I don't want to be rude about the maps on the LEX as it's not my aim and I respect the work of mappers (and admins know it as I spoke long time about this Pb especially with Barbyw)
but my position is, that LEX is flood by the maps, it makes shadow to the rest of the uploads above all when the 3 places at the entrance of the LEX are the most viewed thumbails and people often don't open older uploads.
Moreover, when I see that less than 50 people are downloading maps I am asking if they are their place on the LEX regarding their weight.
It's in this sense I went to a system of downloads. The most an upload is acclaimed, the most it should be awarded. Simple law of supply and demand.
About your idea Catty, it's a first step but to be honest authors are not interested in Subscriber privileges which are IMHO obsolete and "don't make dream". Moreover these people have already these privileges as they belong to teams or already subscribed to the site.
For just a quick response, since there has been plenty of discussion already and more to come on both the community and on a staff level. The one thing I'd like to add is that the karma system is meant for the unusual or above-and-beyond or particular recognition of a post. The primary drawback I see with a standard system or point recognition for downloads/uploads/etc is that, while significant effort goes into it, it's more or less why we're here. I don't think it should be automatic, but as has been said before, shoot one of the mods a PM for the short term.
-Matt
Quote from: threestooges on September 23, 2012, 05:54:47 PM
The one thing I'd like to add is that the karma system is meant for the unusual or above-and-beyond or particular recognition of a post. The primary drawback I see with a standard system or point recognition for downloads/uploads/etc is that, while significant effort goes into it, it's more or less why we're here.
Good points, but this makes me think that the system should have been restarted when changes for administering karma were changed back in '07.
I don't want to sound selfish (because I'm not, just trying to make a point), but it wasn't exactly fair to have older members keep their karma before the changes were made. This gave them a disproportionate amount of points (on average) and made it difficult for new members to move up the karma 'ladder'. This in count may have discouraged new members, combined with the fact that they weren't allowed to administer any karma themselves. I am not saying numbers are everything, but this could have lowered the bar to make things seem more 'fair'.
Keep in mind that I am not pointing out that any members that received a lot of karma before the changes were made do not deserve it, I just wanted to get my point across. I just want to get you thinking about something along those lines.
Has the staff ever thought about a karma elimination/reset to level the playing field? In my opinion it's not the best option, but worth a thought as you consider some sort of reform to the current system.
-Ryan (Haljackey)
To my knowledge, a karma reset has not been discussed, and speaking apart from the staff as a whole (the topic, I'm sure will be discussed in greater detail moving forward) but I'm not sure that would necessarily solve the problem, as many properly apportioned karma points were given back in the day as well, which would improperly short-change the recipients there.
I know I don't have eyes everywhere, and I certainly wasn't in on all the scuttlebutt back when I first joined, but I always kept an eye on the karma logs. It interested me to see who was being recognized for what. Sure, there were the unnecessary ones (both plus and minus) and as established, those led to the current situation. By and large however, the karma presented seemed to be for the same reasons as it is today. The main difference being the number of people who currently have the capability to hand it out.
As others have stated from the staff side of the site, that method is likely going to continue (though the number may, and likely will, increase) but we still have eyes all over the site. As has been mentioned before, if you see something you think is good, PM a staff member with your thoughts on the matter. I know I've given out a few on behalf of others before.
I'd wager there is still more to discuss on the staff side of things before any different paths are taken, but for now, if it hasn't been firmly written anywhere else yet, if you want to give a point to someone (up or down) just shoot a staff member a PM; myself included, and we can get it done if the reasons are right. Just because members don't have the buttons doesn't mean they can't change someone's karma.
-Matt
Karma as a competition. I've not thought about it in that manner. I've thought of it as a thank you for helping out or answering a question. I've thought of it as recognition from ones piers. Maybe Karma is merely a gesture of appreciation for a neat screen grab or series of pictures. Either way, someone thought it important enough to PM an Admin and request that a Karma point be assigned. The effort to put a couple of sentences together speaks to the value and worth of the karma system today.
Why do I do this? SimCity and batting is a way to unwind from work. My mind explores a real life object. I break it down into various elements and assemble them in gmax. It starts out as a puzzle. Ends up growing inside the game we all have in common. There is a satisfaction when a texture comes together and it looks really good on that wall or roof. I don't have a creative job. It is technical and I have to use logic to solve problems. SC4 Devotion, the game, and gmax all fill a creative need. Karma? Is not why I do this.
We all play the game and create monster cities or rural landscapes. We read or comment in the various threads that interest us. Some display pictures of their cities. Some use creativity and put pizzazz into the pictures using Photoshop and skill. Is this done for the enjoyment for self? Or do I also hope that others may enjoy or appreciate the effort too? Can I make an argument that I post a picture of my city because I am first pleased with it? I am pleased again if/when someone provides positive feedback. I post pictures of future bats and occasionally upload to the LEX. But I first got enjoyment from the creating of the game asset. I enjoyed watching it sprout the first time in the game. I appreciate the occasional word of encouragement or a simple 'thank you' more than you can know. A bunch of karma points is not my motivation.
OK. 17 Karma points have been awarded this month so far. Today is the 23rd. That is not quite one a day, but enough. Karma is not totally dead, not totally impossible, but valuable and worth something when received.
Obviously, merely my opinion . – Jim.
Quote from: Girafe on September 23, 2012, 04:29:37 PM
but my position is, that LEX is flood by the maps, it makes shadow to the rest of the uploads above all when the 3 places at the entrance of the LEX are the most viewed thumbails and people often don't open older uploads.
Then instead of going for a totally selfish idea ( which at term will give more award to BATs and MODs than MAPs) why just not re-organize the LEX? A better viewing area when we arrive on the site. Like instead of " last three uploads " something such as " last three uploads " divided into three columns, one for mods, one for bats and one for maps. After that still the latest button etc to see more.
Quote
Moreover, when I see that less than 50 people are downloading maps I am asking if they are their place on the LEX regarding their weight.
Amount of download doesn't mean it's top quality. Sure a good BAT can get more than ten thousands downloads in a short amount of time, but MAPs are spectacular as well. I disagree completely to your opinion on this point. Wherever a BAT/MAP/MOD has 50 downloads or 50K, if it is on the LEX it means it has deserved it as much as any other uploads.
Quote
It's in this sense I went to a system of downloads. The most an upload is acclaimed, the most it should be awarded. Simple law of supply and demand.
We are not in economy class here buddy. Such a law doesn't apply here.
Quote
About your idea Catty, it's a first step but to be honest authors are not interested in Subscriber privileges which are IMHO obsolete and "don't make dream". Moreover these people have already these privileges as they belong to teams or already subscribed to the site.
But what a creator think at first is not privilege he gets from being in a team or uploading. A creator wants his custom content downloaded at least and being seen in various place such as MDs. At least that's how I see it. A creator that is waiting for something more than that after an upload is being selfish and self centered.
Quote from: art128 on September 23, 2012, 10:25:04 PM
Quote from: Girafe on September 23, 2012, 04:29:37 PM
but my position is, that LEX is flood by the maps, it makes shadow to the rest of the uploads above all when the 3 places at the entrance of the LEX are the most viewed thumbails and people often don't open older uploads.
Then instead of going for a totally selfish idea ( which at term will give more award to BATs and MODs than MAPs) why just not re-organize the LEX? A better viewing area when we arrive on the site. Like instead of " last three uploads " something such as " last three uploads " divided into three columns, one for mods, one for bats and one for maps. After that still the latest button etc to see more.
There's one big obstacle in the way of that: it would require a considerable amount of re-programming on the LEX software. The LEX software is proprietary, supplied by
Colyn and one of his employees (
ReLiC). They were active in maintaining it from 2007-2008, but aren't active and don't have time to support it. To the best of my knowledge, there's only been one tweak since then--the addition of built-in Google Search in April 2009, which
jeronij did himself.
Back on subject, I should also add that I receive a fairly regular stream of PMs asking for me to +1 other members, so I'm in agreement with Jim that the system, especially with the extension to select non-staff, is working. As far as newer members having lower point figures, I'd say that's more a simple correlation with the fact that they haven't been here as long, and/or met the criteria to receive points. There are quite members who joined/became active after the "karma lockdown" who have pretty sizable karma-point tallies, in large part because they've contributed a great deal to the site in some way or another. In select cases, we've actually given multiple k-points out in one fell swoop for particularly notable accomplishments. SC4D has always prided itself on being a meritocracy. If someone merits it, they'll get a point.
I would also like to remind folks that being a contentious issue, it's especially important to keep things civil, and the staff is watching this thread very closely to ensure it stays that way.
-Alex
Just a quick something about maps & mappers: It's already been mentioned that creating maps takes quite a bit of time of and skill. I would add that being able to play a top-quality map of any style from almost anywhere in the world is an awesome thing for simcity players to be able to do. Additionally, if there's a place you really want to play and you ask nicely someone will make it for you. The download numbers for maps will always be different than BATs--for example in my region I use thousands of BATs but only one map.
Quote from: Haljackey on September 23, 2012, 06:45:24 PM
...but it wasn't exactly fair to have older members keep their karma before the changes were made. This gave them a disproportionate amount of points (on average) and made it difficult for new members to move up the karma 'ladder'....
Hi
HaljackeyMost of those older members have long since moved onto other interests so their karma count isn't going to ever go up, another problem we have is unlike a few years ago people don't post with or take part in the community with the same enthusiasm as those "older members" had for the game and this site so as a result we don't have the same number of karma points being issued, I used to go to bed at night and wake up the next morning to find 4 pages of posts to catch up, these days that's just as likely to be four posts.
&mmm
Hi
GirafeQuote from: Girafe on September 23, 2012, 04:29:37 PM
...It's in this sense I went to a system of downloads. The most an upload is acclaimed, the most it should be awarded. Simple law of supply and demand.
I realise what you are saying and do appreciate were you are coming from on this, but you already have that on the LEX, everyone who downloads your work has the opportunity to use the "Lot Value" buttons and to also make comment on your work, there is the "Most Popular" menu but as the mega packs, etc have had the most downloads on the site, they naturally come up first as everyone downloads them and that's something we can't change.
As to maps I'm completely hopeless at map making and consider them essential items on the LEX ...
... Just looked at the time and need to head off to :sleeping:
-catty
Maps should definitely be taken into account if the LEX comes into play
Yes they may not get the same amount of downloads as other stuff on the LEX, but they do get downloaded.
I play different maps every so often(I probably have around 75 different maps on my system or backed up somewhere on disc) and my interests change every so often. One week I may like to build a region on an all flat terrain(basically whatever the game creates for a new region, edited to only have large city tiles), or fall back to my all time favorite map, one of San Juan Puerto Rico I grabbed from ST back in 2003 or 2004. Sometimes I play the NHP Washington map, or I even play the GRV official map. My tatses vary, and if what I have looked at here is logged, any staff member with access would be able to verify that I have looked through both map sections not to long ago looking for maps to play on. I appreciate the people who make maps, and some of them cannot be easy to make, considering the details put into them.
Quote from: catty on September 24, 2012, 04:31:16 AM
...people don't post with or take part in the community with the same enthusiasm as those "older members" had for the game and this site so as a result we don't have the same number of karma points being issued, I used to go to bed at night and wake up the next morning to find 4 pages of posts to catch up, these days that's just as likely to be four posts.
I would not, on this topic, while there are several factors that contribute to it, I don't think the enthusiasm for the game has died, so much as the developments in the works now are the more technical ones which require more behind-the-scenes tinkering with numbers: terrain mods for example, now seem to be gaining momentum where before it seemed it was only cycledogg and one or two others. Now there are several high quality ones being developed by several different people. As a result, I wouldn't say the lower post numbers stem from lack of interest.
That said, there are folks who have moved to other interests, so I agree I wouldn't expect to see their karma levels changing.
-Matt
Alright, time to weigh in on this one ;D
First - the idea of a karma reset, I think, is a terrible idea. I can't speak too well to the size of the imbalance in karma that may exist, but the idea of stripping well-deserved karma from older community members who may no longer be active is simply not fair to them and the time and effort they devoted to the community.
Personally, I think the karma system as is works pretty well. For the most part, those with higher karma earned it. It is a reward, and specifically because it can't be received for just anything, it carries a lot of value. I'm right there with noahclem about that first karma point. I think I actually jumped out of my seat when I saw the PM. :D I think a lot of that gravity and excitement comes from the fact that it does require someone to go out of their way to nominate someone else for karma. And, as this thread has shown, there's a lot of different ways you can nominate someone for karma, many of them quite easy, so I have to say I think the nomination system works pretty well, too.
Of course, not all karma is serious, which creates a lighthearted atmosphere, and introduces an element of surprise. If I remember correctly, someone not too long ago received karma for "not being a bot". Many others have received it simply for subscribing and writing a nice note to show their appreciation for the community. These aren't great works, they're just fun.
One final note, I do like catty's idea of creating a LEX Uploader badge. Something to be handed out to those who have successfully completed the scrutineer process, and gained full uploading rights. As it's been pointed out, that number's pretty small. Now, many very talented creators choose to bypass the LEX altogether, which is fine. But, since the community generally recognizes the LEX as being a more exclusive exchange due to the scrutineer process, I think having a profile badge to honor that achievement would be a nice touch and generally well received.
I also agree with the LEX badge as well, that is something that should be done regardless of whether Kharma gets revamped or not. Anyone who has upload rights on the LEX deserve to be recognized because to make it through the scrutineer process should be awarded with a badge because it is not easy to get through that process at all, and why I feel the LEX is the best place to come for lots because rarely do lots cause issues.
Some € 0,05 by me.
Getting a Karma point makes me feel I did actually add something useful to the community. Be it a smart question, a useful tutorial or something else like that. It is something that is valuable and I think it should not be treated too lightly.
An award is worth what the jury is: the more exclusive the higher the value.
You can compare it with the stars rating on Simtropolis. Almost all uploads end with 4 or 5 stars, making this rating not too valuable. So if everyone could give Karma points to anybody the meaning of the system would diminish.
So I vote for an exclusive group of people being able to distribute Karma points.
Quote from: FrankU on September 25, 2012, 05:56:06 AM
You can compare it with the stars rating on Simtropolis. Almost all uploads end with 4 or 5 stars, making this rating not too valuable. So if everyone could give Karma points to anybody the meaning of the system would diminish.
So I vote for an exclusive group of people being able to distribute Karma points.
Keep in mind I am not basing this discussion on anything outside of the site. Simtropolis has their own system and I will stress that it should not be taken into account for any possible changes here.
Next up, regarding the LEX, remember it is separate from the forum. Should the forum have it's own system separate from the LEX? That seems to be mentality of the current system, as nearly all of the karma is administered based on posts.
Lastly should I set up a poll so people can vote? Ultimately it's a staff decision, but a poll might help show the staff what the opinion of the site is regarding the karma system.
Let's wait on the poll idea please.
Robin
We have the discussion going well at the staff level, and this thread has proven to be useful in feeding that discussion. I don't think a poll would add too much to what we have here already. We'll keep you posted.
-Matt
Karma - is the concept of "action" or "deed", understood as that which causes the entire cycle of cause and effect. People here do what they do because they want to help: to BAT, to Modd.....whatever it is, they do it first and foremost because they enjoy it. The karma system is something apart from that.
This is Jeroni's site and the karma system was something he put in for a particular reason. There may be some improvements that could be done here or there and we the staff are always, always open to anyone's suggestions.
After looking over the discussion in this thread and discussing it on a staff level, the Karma Point system as you all see it today will remain as it is with the exception that more members as time passes will join the small group that can hand out Karma Points.
All SC4D members can freely PM any Staff member regarding issuing Karma Points to a deserving member on their behalf.
General Guidelines
-All SC4 Devotion members are eligible for recognition.
-Karma can be awarded when any member at SC4 Devotion sends a PM to the SC4 Devotion staff with specific information about what behavior or action should be recognized.
-SC4 Devotion staff is not the sole means of the process to award Karma. It is recognized that the staff cannot be everywhere at all times nor are we always thinking about Karma. There is a small group tasked to find examples of people who are contributing to the game and SC4 Devotion. This group includes SC4 Devotion staff and a few other members. The process includes all of SC4 Devotion forums and the LEX. It includes all its members and does not single out or favor any individual, group, or team. Other sites have their own recognition systems. It is not our goal to emulate them.
-Karma points are usually given as close to the actions as possible. So keep your eyes out and let us know when you see it.
-Don't feel bad about not receiving Karma, instead strive to merit it.
With all that said, we're going to lock this thread in about 24 hours from now. If anyone has any more thoughts or concerns on the matter feel free to PM any Admin or Global Moderator. Please include more than one staff member to be sure you get a reply as soon as possible.
As for the LEX uploading badge idea, this seems like something that can be implemented. A badge will need to be designed first and then the process of actually adding it to each concerning member will be time consuming, so everyone will need to be patient for that.
On behalf of the SC4 Devotion Staff
Thanks for taking the time to revisit the karma system and reading our comments concerning it. That's what I strived for when I started the topic.
I'm fine with having this thread locked now that it's purpose has been fulfilled. I would request however, that a general karma discussion thread be set up so that we have a place to discuss any new ideas or related developments regarding the karma system.
Thanks and all the best,
-Ryan (Haljackey)