Dear SC4D webmasters, the SC4D site look old (but not looking too old), so I suggest you to rebuild the SC4D website with some of the following considerations:
- Security
Now, the website security need is more than before. So, the new SC4D website must have better security by using good security reputation web software (I recommend to use Node.js (nodejs.org) & Hapi.js (hapijs.com) because they have good security reputation & trusted by many companies), penetration testing (either test by the site team self or hold a security bug hunting), handling security report with care (don't disclose until is fixed), using SSL certificate, handling user data with care, adding DDoS protection, coding the site securely, etc.
- Responsive web design (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsive_web_design)
Now, many site has been following Responsive web design. I suggest you to rebuild SC4D sitewith Responsive Web Design.
- Accessibility
Not only focus RWD, SC4D website must considerate accessibility. So, slightly-disabled peoples can access the website easily.
- Unification
The LEX is not separate of SC4D. The new LEX is part of SC4D, so the user can use their account for downloading lots. Also the SC4D Encyclopedia will be part of SC4D and renamed to SC4D Wiki (due to confusion between word 'Wiki', in the quick access button which located
under secondary nav. menu and 'Encyclopedia', in the page)
- Clean & tidy
The new SC4D site must be clean & tidy, so the user can access the site sections without any confusions.
- Seamless & no confusion
This consideration may be related to previous considerations
The new SC4D site must be seamless & less or no confusion. If founded many critical site bugs, it can decrease User Experience (UX).
- Scalability
May be related to previous considerations
The new SC4D site must be hosted to cloud to prevent scaling issues (including bandwidth issue).
- Flat design with active color
The new SC4D site must be have flat design with active color, don't use flat design but with dead color.
- Tutorial Center
The new SC4D will have Tutorial Center, so the user get SC4 tutorial in SC4D easily.
- CJ Center
The CJ Center is a brand-new section that specially for CJs.
- other consideration welcome...
I hope you to rebuilt the website with these considerations.
The new site will be updated but not too frequently (like ST). Also, it will run when required & tested seriously.
The new site will retain many basics of SC4D (e.g. power search, dependencies tracker).
Regards,
indovote (Zaydan Naufal)
Edit 01/11/2016: Due constructive critics from the replier, I changed the word 'disabled people' with 'slight-disabled people'.
Note: Sorry if I' am misspelling because I' am not native English speaker. I just suggest, not force you, so you can accept or decline my suggestion. The update disclaimer is added because of the replier said that SC4D update will same like ST but it is not.
Sure, it may be old, but who cares? Personally, I hate it when sites change their look frequently, especially when there was nothing wrong with the way the site used to look. A site upgrade is going to cause many problems and bugs, and some features may no longer exist. For example, Simtropolis' new site does not have a way to display awards, whereas the previous version of the site software did have this feature. The site was upgraded in June 2015, and this feature still hasn't been restored.
I know that SC4 Devotion itself looks a bit dated, but the LEX looks and feels quite modern. I'm not sure why you thought that the LEX looks old. One thing I do agree with you about is that the LEX should have the same login as the main SC4D website.
Sorry to totally shoot down your suggestion to upgrade this site (I'm not an admin here; they may think differently about this), but I hate it when web developers decide to upgrade their site for little reason besides "it's old." If it ain't broke, why fix it?
Quote from: compdude787 on January 01, 2016, 09:06:07 PM
Sure, it may be old, but who cares? Personally, I hate it when sites change their look frequently, especially when there was nothing wrong with the way the site used to look. A site upgrade is going to cause many problems and bugs, and some features may no longer exist. For example, Simtropolis' new site does not have a way to display awards, whereas the previous version of the site software did have this feature. The site was upgraded in June 2015, and this feature still hasn't been restored.
I know that SC4 Devotion itself looks a bit dated, but the LEX looks and feels quite modern. I'm not sure why you thought that the LEX looks old. One thing I do agree with you about is that the LEX should have the same login as the main SC4D website.
Sorry to totally shoot down your suggestion to upgrade this site (I'm not an admin here; they may think differently about this), but I hate it when web developers decide to upgrade their site for little reason besides "it's old." If it ain't broke, why fix it?
I fixed the word. The site is not old (maybe built 2011, I see on copyright date), but look old (except for LEX, it use Bootstrap, so look modern). 'Upgrade suggestion' mean not run regularly, so the look is same for long time (but not very very very long time, e.g. the look is same from 1995 to 2016).
In short word: the site will change when required.
Offers of help would be more convincing than demands to change something that isn't broken.
Comment edited per Site Rule #13. Please find a better way to express your disagreement with someone, rather than being confrontational. -APSMS
Let's not get into an argument over what are suggestions.
My 2cts...
Personally I wish for the SC4D site to stay exactly how it is for the most part.
Security must be pretty decent, because we're not infected with nasties. To my knowledge, some spam aside, such issues have never really occurred.
Totally agree with compdude787. I find the continual tinkering at ST really adds nothing, but seems to keep taking features away. Worse still, so many links are out of date it makes life a lot harder than it really needs to be. Search is useless, I never even try, I just use Google instead. By comparison search on the LEX is fantastic, the custom Google search never fails as a last resort. The dependency tracker is such a useful tool, granted it's not complete, but it's an example of heading in the right direction.
If there is one thing I would like to change, that would be making some of the information here easier to find. A lot of info pertaining to modding is scattered and can be hard to track down unless you know which post contains it. But that's not really a fault per-se, just the reality of a site that's been around a while. Most of the common stuff is stickied, it's just the more complex things, often that few remaining members could elaborate upon that can be difficult to find.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
This isn't me saying that you're a bad person for suggesting these things, just bringing up some counter points.
- Security
The forum software is a free thing from years ago, possibly no longer maintained. I totally agree that it would be better if it were updated to be secure, but the staff have limited time and moving forum software would a) break many links (including google searches) b) take a heck of a lot of time and effort and c) probably alienate most of the regulars who actually like how the site works right now.
Oh and magically changing to node.js wouldn't fix anything; I'd guess the development tools available make it potentially harder to break the code, but you're saying rewrite the whole site from scratch in a different language and runtime, and you'd have to move to a different host (or at least, be running on something you could run node.js on instead) and transfering the TB's of LEX data and forum posts would be a nightmare, for an already busy (with real life) staff. Even with tooling it'd probably bring about 10x as many bugs and security flaws.
- Responsive web design
I believe CasperVG has been updating the LEX at least to be somewhat responsive. It's probably possible to make a forum skin be just as responsive, but is it worth it?
- Accessibility
This would be a laudable goal: accessibility, internationalisation and localisation are great to make sites more usable to everyone tbh. But this would require huge and deep changes to the forum software, which is still just an old and possibly outdated free software. It would be possible to add to the LEX which is custom code, but you'd have to convince CasperVG
- Unification
this would be technically plausible, other than the fairly large effort into converting one site to use the other logins. it would also sacrifice the separation of code bases (which I can agree to being less optimal in terms of security, having two flawed security systems to look after is worse than one? but) having to integrate the LEX into forum software while possible (I've done it before, years ago) is small reward? having to log in to the forum using LEX accounts would be totally infeasible.
- Clean & tidy
A design change like this I would totally be down for, but it a) alienates users b) changes the brand and c) clean and tidy probably reduces ad revenue since ads totally destroy a clean look.
- Flat design with active color
- Seamless & no confusion
A very laudable goal indeed. Small tweaks to the skins and UX would be worth it, but this hinges on having development time not taken up making the site better. The colour scheme here is a mix between the yellow/red/blue of the SC4 logo (and SC4D's logo), black, and the random blues/etc of the default skin which haven't been ironed out.
- Scalability
The current software isn't scalable, can possibly be made scalable, but the traffic probably doesn't justify it. It would make sense to add something like a cloudfare CDN, maybe. The bandwidth will cost you wherever you are, and would probably end up costing more if you just blindly said 'the cloud is better'.
Thanks for your suggestions, I hope my reply doesn't come across as rude or demeaning, and this is totally an unofficial answer from someone with a little technical experience, not at all the thoughts of the owners or staff.
I'm glad SC4D and the LEX have stayed as they are because it is top notch quality. The quality of Simtropolis has gone down a bit in my opinion since the upgrades of 2015, while SC4D is somewhat harder to use I do like that as there are far more options to post exactly what you want to. As for the LEX it should stay as it is, the style looks great and the search tools are incredible. In fact the STEX in Simtropolis has become almost inaccessible because there is no longer a proper search function for finding files.
Quote from: JoeST on January 02, 2016, 06:17:08 AM
This isn't me saying that you're a bad person for suggesting these things, just bringing up some counter points.
- Security
The forum software is a free thing from years ago, possibly no longer maintained. I totally agree that it would be better if it were updated to be secure, but the staff have limited time and moving forum software would a) break many links (including google searches) b) take a heck of a lot of time and effort and c) probably alienate most of the regulars who actually like how the site works right now.
Oh and magically changing to node.js wouldn't fix anything; I'd guess the development tools available make it potentially harder to break the code, but you're saying rewrite the whole site from scratch in a different language and runtime, and you'd have to move to a different host (or at least, be running on something you could run node.js on instead) and transfering the TB's of LEX data and forum posts would be a nightmare, for an already busy (with real life) staff. Even with tooling it'd probably bring about 10x as many bugs and security flaws.
- Responsive web design
I believe CasperVG has been updating the LEX at least to be somewhat responsive. It's probably possible to make a forum skin be just as responsive, but is it worth it?
- Accessibility
This would be a laudable goal: accessibility, internationalisation and localisation are great to make sites more usable to everyone tbh. But this would require huge and deep changes to the forum software, which is still just an old and possibly outdated free software. It would be possible to add to the LEX which is custom code, but you'd have to convince CasperVG
- Unification
this would be technically plausible, other than the fairly large effort into converting one site to use the other logins. it would also sacrifice the separation of code bases (which I can agree to being less optimal in terms of security, having two flawed security systems to look after is worse than one? but) having to integrate the LEX into forum software while possible (I've done it before, years ago) is small reward? having to log in to the forum using LEX accounts would be totally infeasible.
- Clean & tidy
A design change like this I would totally be down for, but it a) alienates users b) changes the brand and c) clean and tidy probably reduces ad revenue since ads totally destroy a clean look.
- Flat design with active color
- Seamless & no confusion
A very laudable goal indeed. Small tweaks to the skins and UX would be worth it, but this hinges on having development time not taken up making the site better. The colour scheme here is a mix between the yellow/red/blue of the SC4 logo (and SC4D's logo), black, and the random blues/etc of the default skin which haven't been ironed out.
- Scalability
The current software isn't scalable, can possibly be made scalable, but the traffic probably doesn't justify it. It would make sense to add something like a cloudfare CDN, maybe. The bandwidth will cost you wherever you are, and would probably end up costing more if you just blindly said 'the cloud is better'.
Thanks for your suggestions, I hope my reply doesn't come across as rude or demeaning, and this is totally an unofficial answer from someone with a little technical experience, not at all the thoughts of the owners or staff.
1. I know upgrading a site is long time action, but can be faster with help of other webmaster & may be member that know
web dev.
2. Yeah, LEX has followed responsive web design. However, it still have glitch (especially in mobile device) that maybe make
confusion, this is (maybe) break the point #7 of this consideration. Also it still have default Bootstrap look.
5. Clean & tidy mean here is not super clean & tidy. I know the site ad is destroying the site look, however if placed with care, it (maybe) clean. Also by adopting clean & tidy design, this site will be accessible easily on mobile device.
For example: imagine if this theme is responsive (that can accessed on many device without layout problem), you will
have long scroll to get post content because the left sidebar menu (in mobile device is in bottom of the top sidebar) is too long (in mobile device).
6. But the logo design & (maybe) the site theme is like 2003-2010 design when in skeumorphism (sorry if misspelling) design era.
Now is flat design era, so many sites & logos designed with flat design.
8. You will feel the effect when the SC4D site has very-high traffic (maybe 100M visits). So the site is (maybe) snappy
because the bandwidth is auto-scaling.
====
I' am agree that making change is not always good, it is
a chance that making it bad. But with intensive test by the webmaster & (maybe) member that know web dev, the bugs will be squash. Maybe the ST site has many bugs because they don't run intensive test when they adding features?
Quote from: indovote on January 02, 2016, 06:44:35 PM
1. I know upgrading a site is long time action, but can be faster with help of other webmaster & may be member that know
web dev.
Actually, most of the web development on this site is done by members who've been promoted. Jeronij isn't very active anymore, though I understand he drops in from time to time. He still owns the site, though.
Quote2. Yeah, LEX has followed responsive web design. However, it still have glitch (especially in mobile device) that maybe make
confusion, this is (maybe) break the point #7 of this consideration. Also it still have default Bootstrap look.
The LEX change came with some useful features, although TBH I kinda liked the old look. The new revisions Casper has worked on definitely look cleaner, though. And the dependency tracker is invaluable, so in that respect I can sacrifice the old look. The new layout is close enough in design that it seems a sleek upgrade, rather than a completely new thing, which in my opinion is preferrable.
Quote6. But the logo design & (maybe) the site theme is like 2003-2010 design when in skeumorphism (sorry if misspelling) design era.
Now is flat design era, so many sites & logos designed with flat design. I' am agree that making change is not always good, it is
a chance that making it bad. But with intensive test by the webmaster & (maybe) member that know web dev, the bugs will be
squash. Maybe the ST site has many bugs because they don't run intensive test when they adding features?
I actually like skeuomorphism. The new flat look is neat, sure, but I don't see any real reason to switch to it. The site as is works great, and for me, like Joe said, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. There would be a large time cost associated with any one upgrade, and for me, as long as the site stays compatible with my devices, that's great for me.
On a similar note, you mentioned responsive web design, and while the idea sounds nice, for me one of the most annoying things about browsing the web on my phone is coming across a website that auto-scales the content based on the width of the screen you're viewing it on. There is typically no way to turn this behavior off (unlike having a separate mobile version). Simtropolis in their last site upgrade switched to a Responsive Web Layout, and because of this I almost never visit their website on my phone anymore. Previously ST had an option for mobile or desktop version, but since I despise the way it looks on my phone, I don't use it anymore. SC4D appears the same on my laptop or on my phone, which I appreciate a lot.
Quote from: Vizoria on January 02, 2016, 07:36:21 AM
I'm glad SC4D and the LEX have stayed as they are because it is top notch quality. The quality of Simtropolis has gone down a bit in my opinion since the upgrades of 2015, while SC4D is somewhat harder to use I do like that as there are far more options to post exactly what you want to. As for the LEX it should stay as it is, the style looks great and the search tools are incredible. In fact the STEX in Simtropolis has become almost inaccessible because there is no longer a proper search function for finding files.
I know ST has many bug (many of them are critical bugs), however with intensive test, the bugs will be detected & squashed.
The new SC4D site still have basics from this version of this site (e.g. dependencies tracker, power search) with many good improvement.
I don't see a need to really have good mobile support for the LEX. You're not going to be browsing the LEX on your phone; you're more likely to be browsing it on your PC where you'll be downloading stuff for the game. So, adding mobile support on the LEX is a complete waste of time.
Quote from: compdude787 on January 02, 2016, 10:32:33 PM
I don't see a need to really have good mobile support for the LEX. You're not going to be browsing the LEX on your phone; you're more likely to be browsing it on your PC where you'll be downloading stuff for the game. So, adding mobile support on the LEX is a complete waste of time.
I agree your reply, however sometime, some people download on their phone & copy it to their PC. ;D
Quote from: indovote on January 02, 2016, 10:49:24 PM
Quote from: compdude787 on January 02, 2016, 10:32:33 PM
I don't see a need to really have good mobile support for the LEX. You're not going to be browsing the LEX on your phone; you're more likely to be browsing it on your PC where you'll be downloading stuff for the game. So, adding mobile support on the LEX is a complete waste of time.
I agree your reply, however sometime, some people download on their phone & copy it to their PC. ;D
Seems like more work to do that than to just download it from the computer, don't you think? ;)
In those rare moments of insanity that I have searched the LEX on my phone, it did work without any problems, though I was not crazy enough to actually download anything.
Usually I would think, if you're really pressed for internet, that you could just tether your phone to your pc and download it that way.
If you have an Android phone, you can also use the LEXer app: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=be.pielambr.lexer
What hosting that will be used for the new SC4D site? DigitalOcean (https://www.digitalocean.com/) or AWS (https://aws.amazon.com/)?
We have no plans at this time to change hosting, as there's not really much benefit for us to be on the cloud at this point. The biggest drain on bandwidth is by far the LEX, and we have it under better control since the LEX upgrade, which added the ability to have a daily per-user bandwidth consumption limit. Additionally, the largest and most popular file on the exchange, the NAM, is also mirrored at Simtropolis and ModDB, which also helps with the server load.
On the security front, the only thing that is up for further consideration is going to https. That said, there is no sensitive information stored on the site, and all the financial matters pertaining to donations and the like are handled securely off-site through Paypal, and the only person with access to that side of things is the site's owner. Our biggest problems historically have been dealing with spambots, and to a lesser extent, sock puppets of banned members, and we've dialed things in now with the registration procedure to find the balance between keeping the bots out, while letting the legitimate new members in, facilitated in large part by our recent addition of social network logins. We've also become very vigilant about making sure our forum software is up-to-date.
As for responsive design and accessibility, the software we are using at present (custom LEX software + Simple Machines Forum (SMF) 2.0.11, released September 2015) is already fairly responsive, and I've not only browsed the forums, but posted using my iPod Touch, without issue, plus, as Casper mentioned, there's the LEXer app on Android. Our high-contrast color scheme does help the visually-impaired navigate the site, and should any user with specific accessibility needs let us know that there's something we could do better to accommodate them, we would welcome that specific feedback.
We've made quite a few subtle UX tweaks over the past couple years, to make things a little bit easier to find and more stable (the sidebar, especially), and so far, they are working.
LEX/Forum account unification has been on the list for almost as long as the LEX has been around, and it's very high on our long-term priorities. The original version of the LEX was a piece of code that was written under the auspices of a former Admin here, who was very selective about who he would let touch the software. After he became inactive, it basically meant it didn't get touched at all, and had fallen into a state of disrepair before Casper took on the project of updating it. It's not common knowledge, but the LEX was originally intended to be part of a network of unified network of LEXes, linking the files of multiple independent SC4 sites, which is part of the reason forum integration wasn't part of the original deal. (Obscure fact: The LEX was originally pitched to SimPeg.)
The main problem now is the matter of how to accomplish this feat. The LEX has been effectively firewalled from the forums for 9 years, and they have different databases, where the account info doesn't exist in a neat one-to-one relationship (there's about 98,000 forum accounts, but 342,000 LEX accounts). Until quite recently, it even had different staff. The most feasible way that has been discussed is using the forum account across both, and having an option to link a "legacy" LEX account to that forum account, to save the download history and the like. However, as our forum software is something that is regularly updated, we do have to make sure that any modifications we would need to make to accomplish this integration wouldn't interfere. SMF has also been working on a more substantial update, Version 2.1, which is presently in beta, and we're going to have to keep an eye on that as well.
On the design front, it is true there's been no substantial changes on the forum design since 2011. But design is very much a matter of personal taste, and the whole philosophy behind SC4 Devotion is that form follows function. There's really only one active staff member who does any substantial web development here (Casper)--there's no "web team", and as a small not-for-profit fansite for a 13-year-old computer game, one can argue that there's not really any need for one. The rest of us work primarily in an operational capacity, as community managers--making sure that the site rules are observed, making sure the board categories are conducive to the community's needs, doing what we can on a personal level to ensure that the content creators have a good experience here, and trying to keep this place thriving. It's also no accident that just about all of the site staff has some hand in custom content development.
No matter how updated or outdated our web design may be, SC4D is all about the people and the content, and we've had a surge of activity in recent months by sticking to that plan. The site hit an all-time low in activity back in June 2015, and with the momentum from two NAM releases, and the LEX Advent Calendar releases, everything is coming back to life. We've tripled the activity levels from that low month, and are on pace for our best month since December 2013. New content projects and Mayor's Diaries are springing up, and even some long-dormant projects, like the CAM, have new life. We've also seen new threads such as this appear and foster discussion, and we appreciate that people are actively thinking about what SC4D can and should be. Thank you, Zaydan, for starting this conversation.
-Alex
Quote from: Tarkus on January 10, 2016, 01:47:54 AM
We have no plans at this time to change hosting, as there's not really much benefit for us to be on the cloud at this point. The biggest drain on bandwidth is by far the LEX, and we have it under better control since the LEX upgrade, which added the ability to have a daily per-user bandwidth consumption limit. Additionally, the largest and most popular file on the exchange, the NAM, is also mirrored at Simtropolis and ModDB, which also helps with the server load.
On the security front, the only thing that is up for further consideration is going to https. That said, there is no sensitive information stored on the site, and all the financial matters pertaining to donations and the like are handled securely off-site through Paypal, and the only person with access to that side of things is the site's owner. Our biggest problems historically have been dealing with spambots, and to a lesser extent, sock puppets of banned members, and we've dialed things in now with the registration procedure to find the balance between keeping the bots out, while letting the legitimate new members in, facilitated in large part by our recent addition of social network logins. We've also become very vigilant about making sure our forum software is up-to-date.
As for responsive design and accessibility, the software we are using at present (custom LEX software + Simple Machines Forum (SMF) 2.0.11, released September 2015) is already fairly responsive, and I've not only browsed the forums, but posted using my iPod Touch, without issue, plus, as Casper mentioned, there's the LEXer app on Android. Our high-contrast color scheme does help the visually-impaired navigate the site, and should any user with specific accessibility needs let us know that there's something we could do better to accommodate them, we would welcome that specific feedback.
We've made quite a few subtle UX tweaks over the past couple years, to make things a little bit easier to find and more stable (the sidebar, especially), and so far, they are working.
LEX/Forum account unification has been on the list for almost as long as the LEX has been around, and it's very high on our long-term priorities. The original version of the LEX was a piece of code that was written under the auspices of a former Admin here, who was very selective about who he would let touch the software. After he became inactive, it basically meant it didn't get touched at all, and had fallen into a state of disrepair before Casper took on the project of updating it. It's not common knowledge, but the LEX was originally intended to be part of a network of unified network of LEXes, linking the files of multiple independent SC4 sites, which is part of the reason forum integration wasn't part of the original deal. (Obscure fact: The LEX was originally pitched to SimPeg.)
The main problem now is the matter of how to accomplish this feat. The LEX has been effectively firewalled from the forums for 9 years, and they have different databases, where the account info doesn't exist in a neat one-to-one relationship (there's about 98,000 forum accounts, but 342,000 LEX accounts). Until quite recently, it even had different staff. The most feasible way that has been discussed is using the forum account across both, and having an option to link a "legacy" LEX account to that forum account, to save the download history and the like. However, as our forum software is something that is regularly updated, we do have to make sure that any modifications we would need to make to accomplish this integration wouldn't interfere. SMF has also been working on a more substantial update, Version 2.1, which is presently in beta, and we're going to have to keep an eye on that as well.
On the design front, it is true there's been no substantial changes on the forum design since 2011. But design is very much a matter of personal taste, and the whole philosophy behind SC4 Devotion is that form follows function. There's really only one active staff member who does any substantial web development here (Casper)--there's no "web team", and as a small not-for-profit fansite for a 13-year-old computer game, one can argue that there's not really any need for one. The rest of us work primarily in an operational capacity, as community managers--making sure that the site rules are observed, making sure the board categories are conducive to the community's needs, doing what we can on a personal level to ensure that the content creators have a good experience here, and trying to keep this place thriving. It's also no accident that just about all of the site staff has some hand in custom content development.
No matter how updated or outdated our web design may be, SC4D is all about the people and the content, and we've had a surge of activity in recent months by sticking to that plan. The site hit an all-time low in activity back in June 2015, and with the momentum from two NAM releases, and the LEX Advent Calendar releases, everything is coming back to life. We've tripled the activity levels from that low month, and are on pace for our best month since December 2013. New content projects and Mayor's Diaries are springing up, and even some long-dormant projects, like the CAM, have new life. We've also seen new threads such as this appear and foster discussion, and we appreciate that people are actively thinking about what SC4D can and should be. Thank you, Zaydan, for starting this conversation.
-Alex
It's true that content is more important than appearance, however appearance still must considerated in this era, but no more than content.
In short word: The content & appearance is in 3:2 ratio.
It should be noted that SC4D was designed specifically with mind to content creators, which is why form follows function, and why appearances have always been secondary.
Not to bash on Simtropolis, as it's a great site (and the Dirktator is always thinking of the community), but the way upgrades break things there would seriously hamper SC4D, esp. since absolutely no one is paid in any fashion to maintain the site. Cosmetic upgrades nowadays also involve backend changes to accommodate the design, and we currently lack a test server for the main forums.
To me, there is inherent beauty in a website that does exactly what you want it to, even if it appears bare bones at first glance. There are far too many website "upgrades" that break functionality or fundamentally alter the way content is consumed on the site (www.engadget.com springs to mind) and as a result change the way the site is used or operates despite not having any change in focus or purpose (as far as staff and management goes).
Quote from: APSMS on January 10, 2016, 03:36:22 AM
It should be noted that SC4D was designed specifically with mind to content creators, which is why form follows function, and why appearances have always been secondary.
Not to bash on Simtropolis, as it's a great site (and the Dirktator is always thinking of the community), but the way upgrades break things there would seriously hamper SC4D, esp. since absolutely no one is paid in any fashion to maintain the site. Cosmetic upgrades nowadays also involve backend changes to accommodate the design, and we currently lack a test server for the main forums.
To me, there is inherent beauty in a website that does exactly what you want it to, even if it appears bare bones at first glance. There are far too many website "upgrades" that break functionality or fundamentally alter the way content is consumed on the site (www.engadget.com springs to mind) and as a result change the way the site is used or operates despite not having any change in focus or purpose (as far as staff and management goes).
I said appearance is in secondary, see my above post. In that post, I said that the content and appearance is in 3:2 ratio.
Regarding the upgrade system, please read my update disclaimer on the post #1.
When i look at Simtropolis and how they totally broke the Search Function (at least for me) and messed up the Description of Files (broken Links in 9 out of 10 Cases, messed up formating) , i hope SC4D will never update.
The overwhelming response from the community is to leave the site alone and the admins have explained that they haven't the time/facilities to upgrade (even if they wanted to).
I am surprised this topic is receiving so much air-time.
Make a new design on the forum at least improve it will not be a lesser evil ... A bit of modernity would be a plus.
The LEX is really good with his addictions system and whether it has already been downloaded ... From group dependencies into one download ... To add to a list to download later ... I love ... Only shade while is not listed but it is only a matter of patience.
About accesibility, one have to remember that the game itself that convocates this community is not very accessible: many subtle details, small fonts, very reliant on mouse use and mostly visual; so, if a person cannot use the game, why try to use SC4D? Maybe older members with newer dissabilities could be an exception, but the site is very flexible for using an accesibility layer (I'm thinking on a Greasemonkey or Stilish script to change the aspect), so the writing of such script could resolve the problem without requiring a change for all users.
Actually now its been brought up, the LEX is full of small useful features. The number of times I've gone to download something, only to be informed I have already done so, is quite high. Each time I see this I can use the filename to bring up a search that will always find it on my PC and avoiding duplication of downloads for both me and the site.
I really dislike change, because so often it's done to make thing look pretty, with little regard for the function.
Mikey Knox said everything for me.
Simtropolis after several updates, the download is less easy to do. I have every time use Google Image to find is that I want in the end...
For several years I use Simtropolis and Devotion, Devotion quality level and still the best. It is true it is a little difficult to navigate at times.
I think that we should not touch Devotion, it may be old, but it is also making its mark manufacturing I think! :thumbsup:
Excuse me for my bad english! &mmm
Just for Info: Regarding the update system, please refer to the update disclaimer on the post #1.
In that disclaimer, I said that the SC4D update system not same like ST.
Sorry, indovote, but I think the case is settled: No website upgrade here. And it's hard to guarantee that there's not going to be any bugs with a new site, because those things will always happen since humans make mistakes. There's always some bugs (however minor) in each new NAM version! Even though the NAM team does a good job of testing new features, there's always some stuff that gets overlooked.
Also, Tarkus, it's interesting that the LEX was actually part of an effort to unify the file exchanges across multiple websites. Honestly, I'm not surprised that that didn't happen.
Quote from: compdude787 on January 10, 2016, 09:35:38 PM
Sorry, indovote, but I think the case is settled: No website upgrade here. And it's hard to guarantee that there's not going to be any bugs with a new site, because those things will always happen since humans make mistakes. There's always some bugs (however minor) in each new NAM version! Even though the NAM team does a good job of testing new features, there's always some stuff that gets overlooked.
Also, Tarkus, it's interesting that the LEX was actually part of an effort to unify the file exchanges across multiple websites. Honestly, I'm not surprised that that didn't happen.
I know that no planned site upgrade today, however, I still watching for webmaster response because is possible for the site webmaster to
plan the site upgrade, however, the upgrade maybe don't run today, maybe running on some next days/months.
Quote from: mgb204 on January 10, 2016, 01:45:37 PM
Actually now its been brought up, the LEX is full of small useful features. The number of times I've gone to download something, only to be informed I have already done so, is quite high. Each time I see this I can use the filename to bring up a search that will always find it on my PC and avoiding duplication of downloads for both me and the site.
I've been surprised at how much that feature has helped me! Would be nice if the STEX would add something like that too as I know I've wasted a bunch of their bandwidth re-downloading unnecessarily.
Quote from: compdude787 on January 10, 2016, 09:35:38 PMAlso, Tarkus, it's interesting that the LEX was actually part of an effort to unify the file exchanges across multiple websites. Honestly, I'm not surprised that that didn't happen.
I was surprised to hear about that, though not as much that it didn't work. The most obvious problem would be that it's been fairly common over the years that people have strong negative feelings toward another site but even forgetting that it still adds an additional burden for uploaders to support work across multiple exchanges. More cooperation between the exchanges would be great though as the game ages, especially plans for dealing with another worst-case scenario like what happened with SimPeg. Discussions have taken place about asking uploaders to choose when uploading whether they consent to having files uploaded elsewhere if (God forbid) the LEX ever disappeared or even to ask about consent for future bundling into larger dependency packs to make things easier on new users as the amount of content grows and grows over time. The disappearance of Gobias' beloved files has made me wonder if there should be an option to (voluntarily) commit to making files available elsewhere if they're removed from the LEX. While no one besides him knows why they were removed, if it was due to bad feelings about our site it would be great if they were available on another fan site or file host. Policing against a "gray market" of exchanging unavailable files is the last thing any site wants to deal with, would be difficult no matter how zealous enforcement was, and the situation will inevitably leave some people unable to obtain important files/dependencies.
Regarding the actual suggested changes to the website, I thought Alex was quite clear about what our plans and goals are and what they are not. A sweeping set of changes of questionable utility is simply not in the cards at this time. If we did have a large amount of time to donate to the site in the short term our priorities would be the ones Alex outlined earlier.
The thing is, I can write in my uploaded Terms and Conditions the following:
"The works contained within are wholly owned by MGB, re-distribution, specifically limited to this installer package only, is acceptable. However, when referencing the resources used within, for use with another mod. You should always link users to this download, please do not include such resources directly."
But is that legally enforceable, it's a muddy area. Looking recently at things like the MiT licence, it fails in one area for me. I don't want to allow commercial use, I couldn't care less what people do with my work, provided they don't think they can cash a paycheck on the back of it. I fear the spirit in which I wrote the above (agreement for TGN/NGN mods), may not be respected due to fears of the potential consequences because I didn't use a vetted licence for the explicit wording.
I don't want to stir up a moral quandary. But if I'm being totally honest, if someone I knew made a request for such unobtainable files, I'd find it difficult to refuse. I know how gutted I would be if I saw the beauty of Gobias' terrain mods, only to find that I couldn't get a copy. In fact I'd scour the darkest corners of the internet trying to find it. Now I'm not recommending any of this or advocating anything. But it does cause a dilemma.
Quote from: noahclem on January 12, 2016, 10:16:51 AM
...The disappearance of Gobias' beloved files has made me wonder if there should be an option to (voluntarily) commit to making files available elsewhere if they're removed from the LEX. While no one besides him knows why they were removed, if it was due to bad feelings about our site it would be great if they were available on another fan site or file host. Policing against a "gray market" of exchanging unavailable files is the last thing any site wants to deal with, would be difficult no matter how zealous enforcement was, and the situation will inevitably leave some people unable to obtain important files/dependencies....
I uploaded the MAXIS official updates to CB and justified it on the grounds that EA Games had deleted the websites they were on and they were still selling the games so people still needed the files especially when it came to the SC3 files, but if someone deletes their own work ....?
One solution is the LEX CD and DVDs and also the STEX DVDs and I'm now kicking myself that I didn't grab a copy of the PLEX CD when it was available as I now have files that have long since been deleted from the STEX, one of my parks is still available on one of the STEX DVDs even tho its now only available over at CB these days and I did have to agree to have my park included on the STEX DVD ... you could make it part of the LEX Upload that people agree to have their work included on a DVD or these days a Cloud location (even something like
noahclem suggestion of another site) so even if they delete their work from the LEX it will remain on the "DVD" or other location especially when they are dependencies.
-catty