Why did you limit High Tech demand on the RCI bar to 12,000?
Somy 1, Somy 2, and Somy's Nanotech High Tech buildings require demands higher than 12,000 (Much more in the case of Somy 1 and 2).
Since you cannot have more than 12,000 demand put into use at once, this prevents any other Stage 10 High Tech building from growing...except the Doom Cubes (Interculture).
Furthermore, since all three are Stage 10s, once you have Interculture you cannot upgrade into the Somy's.
Long story short, I have three high tech buildings that can never build and I'd like to know the thought behind the 12,000 limitation and why they (The buildings) were even included if they can never actually be utilized.
(If such a thing as an easy solution exists, I'd just like a patch that ups High Tech demand to 24,000 as with the other demand bars)
Another question, actually, now that I've thought of it...why is Interculture so absolutely and insanely difficult to get to grow? I've literally surrounded blocks of lesser stage High Tech buildings in an effort to get an Interculture to grow, but no dice (While, as well, fulfilling park, water, and fire protection demands). I'm sure there's a reasonable answer behind it, though.
On a sidenote, I am currently in the latter stages of fully testing the CAM and I plan on doing a complete, top to bottom review of it once I feel I have experienced everything it offers. There are a few glaring flaws (The worst one being mentioned), so far, but nothing to break the experience.
Thank you.
Quote from: Mister Giggles on November 06, 2007, 08:23:30 PM
Why did you limit High Tech demand on the RCI bar to 12,000?
Somy 1, Somy 2, and Somy's Nanotech High Tech buildings require demands higher than 12,000 (Much more in the case of Somy 1 and 2).
Since you cannot have more than 12,000 demand put into use at once, this prevents any other Stage 10 High Tech building from growing...except the Doom Cubes (Interculture).
Are you sure that the RCI Bar is not just a visual thing and that demand can actually exceed the limits of the graph?
I have seen Somy's I-HT grow for other individuals.
I am not the maker of or an expert on CAM, so I would rather that Tage attempt to answer this. But as I've said I've seen them grow and the CAM did undergo extensive testing.
I'm not the expert, so I'll wait for Tage to answer this, but those are just my thoughts.
Perhaps I am, indeed, wrong; I've not put aside the possibility.
Having never seen even a single instance of the Somy's growing, however, makes me raise an eyebrow and reminds me of the vanilla SimCity 4 where I rarely, if ever, saw the +6000 buildings grow (Even worse was with the PanPacific buildings, where I knew there was enough overall demand for them and yet...nothing).
And yes, I believe the CAM underwent extensive testing; however, refinement is there to be made and there exists flaws in the 1.0 version of anything.
I myself haven't had any of the Somy 1 or 2's grow in any city yet, though Integriculture sprouts up like weeds for me.
Well I think that the graph is merely a visual representation of the actual demand, and it is in this case bound by an upper limit of 12 000 visually. The previous Maxis 6 000 graph did not prevent (badly and ludicrously modded) Stage 8 RC lots from growing because the graph, as I have stated, is in my opinion a fancy, but insufficient and poor, indicator of the reality.
Have you used and analysed the date from the Census Repository V2 by Tage / RippleJet?
Mister Giggles, this is a very good remark! &apls
Somy's high-tech industrials were CAMmified after the CAM itself was finished, and I wasn't aware of this until now.
No doubt, the maximum demand for I-HT needs to be 24,000.
Actually, Somy's tall industrials are too big for stage 10 I-HT, they should be at a much higher stage... ::)
Quote from: Mister Giggles on November 06, 2007, 11:47:18 PM
And yes, I believe the CAM underwent extensive testing; however, refinement is there to be made and there exists flaws in the 1.0 version of anything.
CAM, version 1.1 will be in the pipeline soon now! :)
Quote from: Mister Giggles on November 06, 2007, 08:23:30 PM
Furthermore, since all three are Stage 10s, once you have Interculture you cannot upgrade into the Somy's.
That would however be possible (if the maximum demand was 24,000).
Lots can upgrade within the same growth stage, as long as the density is at least slightly higher.
Quote from: M4346 on November 06, 2007, 10:16:32 PM
Are you sure that the RCI Bar is not just a visual thing and that demand can actually exceed the limits of the graph?
Quote from: M4346 on November 07, 2007, 12:15:37 AM
Well I think that the graph is merely a visual representation of the actual demand, and it is in this case bound by an upper limit of 12 000 visually.
Maxis demand bars are visually scewed, but in quite an opposite way as you're suspecting. :P
Even if the maximum demand is indeed 12,000, the bars show a much higher value.
The reason for this is obvously to show a taller bar when demand is very low.
Quote from: M4346 on November 07, 2007, 12:15:37 AM
Have you used and analysed the date from the Census Repository V2 by Tage / RippleJet?
That would show that maximum demand is indeed 12,000.
Besides, if you're comfortable using Reader, it isn't too difficult to check the RCI exemplars in the CAM itself and note that the maximum industrial demand is set at 0x2EE0.
Have I then been deceived into believing that the industrials I saw were grown? So, the demand needs to be fixed, but my question is will this and has this prevented them from growing?
Yes, I am pretty sure it has kept them from growing.
Somy1 has a capacity of 22,415 and Somy2 21,898.
The ones seen growing might very well have been from the beta testing...
Quote from: RippleJet on November 07, 2007, 12:57:24 AM
The ones seen growing might very well have been from the beta testing...
That explains it then. ;)
Meh :P
But was the upper demand limit (?) in non-CAM then unlimited to allow for Stage 8 to include such a vast range of occupants?
Quote from: M4346 on November 07, 2007, 01:00:11 AM
But was the upper demand limit (?) in non-CAM then unlimited to allow for Stage 8 to include such a vast range of occupants?
No, the upper limits in Rush Hour are set at 6,000 for all RCI types.
You are still able to grow buildings slightly bigger than this, even up to 50% bigger, but not 100% bigger.
Ah, okay... so hypothetically speaking an I-HT building with a capacity of 18 000 would still grow, but not higher?
Sorry to bother... :P
Cam 1.1??? YAY!!!! I love the pipeline. RippleJet, are you hinting at additional stages for Industry? And maybe a fix for Industrial demand?
Quote from: xxdita on November 07, 2007, 01:25:37 AM
RippleJet, are you hinting at additional stages for Industry? And maybe a fix for Industrial demand?
Regarding additional I-HT stages... remains to be seen... ::)
(the first beta versions actually had 15 I-HT stages)
RippleJet: Quite excellent. I was mainly concerned about High Tech since it's the key driving force behind getting massive "Skyscraper Forests", and I'm not a fan of turning every small area around my city into High Tech villas (Though, at least, with Interculture this becomes a vastly easier task). I am pleased it's going to be fixed, and hopefully, more very large high tech buildings added, with perhaps a small tweak to how Industrial stages work to balance out the upgrades.
I do have yet another question, now that you're here...
When are you going to add in NDEX lots to the CAM list? Aside from the BSC and their vast undertakings (The Big Dig, the CAM, with a sprinkle of NAM), NDEX stands as the best of the best in making stuff. You could in one fell swoop elliminate one problem that exists with the CAM (Not enough variety for tile requirements and too easy to get the system to 'fall' into one Stage 15 building of one type or another (As evidenced by the 13 PanPacific buildings I've managed to grow...).
Furthermore, when will Stage 15 High-Wealth buildings be added? I feel this oversight (Minor as it is) enchances the need for more buildings over a greater range of wealth, tile requirements, and, of course, Stages.
Thank you for your quick responses, RippleJet. It's nice to see someone at the forefront of fixing SimCity 4 so active and gives me hope for a future of the CAM.
We made a lot of NDEX models into CAM lots for the initial release. Unfortunately we have not been given permission to mod the original releases for the CAM and also have no permission to make model packs of any NDEX models other than the ones that are on the LEX. If you look at the original list for the CAM releases you will see that all the models have to be obtained from their original uploads and there were complaints about that making things difficult.
Barby: Well, darn. I guess that's about right...can't just steal people's work. Are there any options you're pondering to get permission on a mass scale to do CAMification?
All options with NDEX have been explored and we simply cannot get permission.
Curious...what is their inhibition to letting their lots get CAMitized?
I have no idea but we were refused permission apart from Superstar, Ill_Tonkso and dragonanime.
Barby, what about Dusktrooper? I mean, some of his stuff is here on the LEX, he's a member, and, well... what did he say? :P
Also, Barby has not yet mentioned that nothing prohibits anyone from making CAMeLOTs of their Models even if they refuse permission to host the models themselves. The only thing that is different in that case / situation is the added difficulty of countless dependencies and a dependency witch-hunt ensues.
M4346: Reasonably speaking, it's bad show to encourage the growth of a brand new way of playing by stealing people's models. If I may go by Barby's comment, the reasonable discussion route has not been completely used up, however.
Though, of the same accord, I don't know the depth, length, or form said route has taken.
Excuse me? Encourage to steal models? ???
The policy is that you can use any model file as a dependency, I don't distribute or encourage the distribution of the original files and create my own descriptor files for them. I don't touch the model files themselves.
That is and has always been standard practice in the community among all / most teams.
I was not aware. I apologize.
I'm not entirely aware of the 'society' I find myself in, my sheer interest in the CAM bringing me here...so excuse me if I make a gaff; it's not on purpose.
But, there's another question...if you can 'borrow' the model for your own purposes without the permission from the original creator, what's the major problem?
You can always relot somebody else's bat (building model) as long as you do not include the bat in your upload.
Instead, you need to point to the original creator's upload as a dependency.
The problem this brings into making CAMeLots is that the dependency model file is part of an existing lot.
And people often do not understand that they only need the SC4Model file from the original upload, and not the original lots.
Besides, those original lots are often inCAMpatible, growing at too low a stage and upsetting the development simulator.
As M said by having many models in many different uploads it causes a confusion of dependencies. I assure you that all reasonable routes were pursued in an attempt to make things as simple as possible.
Hmm, true, true...
Well, I suppose I could merely wait until this "X Tool" comes out, then I could in theory just make my own...
Quote from: Mister Giggles on November 07, 2007, 08:48:00 PM
Hmm, true, true...
Well, I suppose I could merely wait until this "X Tool" comes out, then I could in theory just make my own...
That's my plan. I even have a seperate "Waiting For XTool" subfolder in my download folder.
I like the fact that the BSC isn't just hijacking every model on other sites for the sake of CAM. If those creators choose to participate, or abstain, that should be respected, at least publicly. Though I'd think if they were to ever play the game with CAM, they'd insist on revamping all of their creations for it.
Quote from: xxdita on November 08, 2007, 04:36:55 AM
Though I'd think if they were to ever play the game with CAM, they'd insist on revamping all of their creations for it.
That's the hard part. A lot of people dislike dependancies (which as we all know are what make BSC's great BATs look so nice on their lots) and dislike BSC itself. I've been purging BATs that don't fit in with CAMelots and let me tell you that its been a right pain in the you know where, but I think its worth it to maintain uniform growth levels.
Cheers,
Kevin
Quote from: RippleJet on November 07, 2007, 02:45:06 PM
The problem this brings into making CAMeLots is that the dependency model file is part of an existing lot.
And people often do not understand that they only need the SC4Model file from the original upload, and not the original lots.
Besides, those original lots are often inCAMpatible, growing at too low a stage and upsetting the development simulator.
When I first installed CAM last September, I knew virtually nothing about how anything worked, so I am one of those people who downloaded and installed the entire lots for all the dependencies, an not just the models. I have built a number of large cities since then. I have several questions:
1. Can I delete all the files except the model files from the dependency lots that I have installed? What happens if I do this and some of the un-CAMmed lots have already grown in my cities?
2. Is there any easy way to tell which buildings are the CAMmed version and which are not? There are various obvious difficult ways...
3. Some of the dependencies have prop files and custom queries that go with them. I assume I should keep the prop files. I also assume that the custom queries aren't necessary. But are they desirable? Do they hurt anything? (They apparently don't do anything too bad, since I've been playing with them for eight months.)
Quote from: z on May 19, 2008, 04:12:38 PM
1. Can I delete all the files except the model files from the dependency lots that I have installed? What happens if I do this and some of the un-CAMmed lots have already grown in my cities?
You would be getting error messages saying you're missing plugins when opening such a city.
Quote from: z on May 19, 2008, 04:12:38 PM
2. Is there any easy way to tell which buildings are the CAMmed version and which are not? There are various obvious difficult ways...
If you query a building that isn't CAMified, you would first of all not get the CAMeLot query. :)
Quote from: z on May 19, 2008, 04:12:38 PM
3. Some of the dependencies have prop files and custom queries that go with them. I assume I should keep the prop files. I also assume that the custom queries aren't necessary. But are they desirable? Do they hurt anything? (They apparently don't do anything too bad, since I've been playing with them for eight months.)
No problem with having props and queries in your plugins that aren't used. :thumbsup:
I have cleaned up all the un-CAMmed lots from the CAM model dependency files. Things do seem to run a little smoother now.
I, for one, would strongly encourage the developers to make available more CAM lots that use other models (such as NDEX) as dependencies. Perhaps these could be in a separate category, with suitable warnings to take proper care to load just the model files. (I know this is already in the manual, but manuals often don't get read.) It just seems to me that this would save a whole lot of time if this were done once, rather than have everyone CAM their own lots once the X tool comes out. I would guess that it would lead to fewer user problems in the long run as well.
New CAMeLots are constantly in the works. Some featuring buildings available in prop packs from the LEX, others requiring building models from elsewhere. If you have a request for a particular building to be made into a CAMeLot, you can always ask in the CAM General Discussions thread, or PM one of us.