So, I finally got around to downloading/installing the CAM, and have seen a lot of remarks in a lot of places about it screwing up one's existing regions. I have a couple of questions about this that I wasn't able to find clear answers to:
1) Does a "New Region" necessarily have to be a freshly rendered one? Would a "stock" region (like New York or San Francisco) that is blank upon installation of the program qualify as a "New Region"?
2) Relatedly, some of the regions that come with the game already have cities in them (like Berlin and London). Is there any way to cause these regions to revert to "New"? Does simply obliterating the existing cities, then doing a save/exit to region, solve this problem?
3) It is possible to have eternal commuters traveling only between two adjacent regions?
Unrelated to the question of New/Existing regions (except by tangent) is a question I have on workforce, demand, and the like. As a precursory note, I'm following along with soldyne's "Making Money the Easy Way (http://www.simtropolis.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=146&threadid=78505&enterthread=y)" tutorial thread on Simtropolis. That said, I'll start it off with a few pictures:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi70.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi116%2Flandwalker%2FFairviewRegion.jpg&hash=aa852ba69ed86b479ba42d494cf237177b147649)
Here we have the little slice of the region I'm working on. I'm using the pre-made Fairview region, which begins empty. There are currently just the two cities, Suburbia and Industria.
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi70.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi116%2Flandwalker%2FIndustriaCenssu.jpg&hash=4860f51a0568acdd878d8bb17a88f52fded5ba7b)
The census report for Industria. As you might expect, Industria is wholly dedicated to industry and power production.
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi70.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi116%2Flandwalker%2FIndustria.jpg&hash=3d291dae5e0db83c6833746b83f2aba3558652e9)
Industria itself, as it stands. There is a power connection to Suburbia, as well as a road connection (via avenue).
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi70.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi116%2Flandwalker%2FSuburbiaCensus.jpg&hash=98ef1ec32345702c06557c6c0ae60cf18a7fd045)
The Suburbia census report. Suburbia holds only residential and commercial zones.
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi70.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi116%2Flandwalker%2FSuburbia.jpg&hash=918ddd8404e387506ab660f6ff3e393de9eabfe8)
And Suburbia, the town.
So, here's the problem I'm facing. As you can see from the census reports, there are currently about 2,000 unemployed people living in Suburbia (and, thus, in the region at large). The demand for industry is very high in both cities. However, I'm having a lot of trouble getting industry to build. You can see in Industria that there are a lot of blank, zoned spaces. Yes, they are partitioned; however, all the developed spaces in Industria are also partitioned, so I know that industry can develop on partitions of those sizes. Problem is, they aren't, despite the demand.
So, essentially, here lies my question: What's going on?
Any and all help would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers.
Quote from: Landwalker on January 09, 2008, 10:12:49 AM
1) Does a "New Region" necessarily have to be a freshly rendered one? Would a "stock" region (like New York or San Francisco) that is blank upon installation of the program qualify as a "New Region"?
It won't hurt to try... ::)
They would probably work pretty well with CAM though! :thumbsup:
Quote from: Landwalker on January 09, 2008, 10:12:49 AM
2) Relatedly, some of the regions that come with the game already have cities in them (like Berlin and London). Is there any way to cause these regions to revert to "New"? Does simply obliterating the existing cities, then doing a save/exit to region, solve this problem?
Since those stock regions only hold low stage buildings, you should be able to play them with CAM.
However, you will notice that the cities will spread out more than they would without the CAM.
Especially if there already are some stage 4-6 buildings, the further need for them will be non-existent.
For a long time ahead you would only be seeing stages 1-3 grow.
Quote from: Landwalker on January 09, 2008, 10:12:49 AM
3) It is possible to have eternal commuters traveling only between two adjacent regions?
Not eternal commuters in commute circles, but yes, if you are building specialized cities like in your example, you will see commuters coming in from elsewhere in SimNation.
This is the game's way of spuring the growth of commercials and industrials after you've started to connect your neighbouring cities.
They will eventually be compensated by commuters going out from your cities into SimNation...
You can already notice this in Industria with 1,182 commercial commuters going out, even if nobody is living in Industria.
You can also see that both your cities have vacant jobs within the city borders (267 in Suburbia and 284 in Industria).
In other words, the unemployed people are all living elsewhere in SimNation and will only increase the need for jobs in your cities.
Quote from: Landwalker on January 09, 2008, 10:12:49 AM
So, here's the problem I'm facing. As you can see from the census reports, there are currently about 2,000 unemployed people living in Suburbia (and, thus, in the region at large). The demand for industry is very high in both cities. However, I'm having a lot of trouble getting industry to build. You can see in Industria that there are a lot of blank, zoned spaces. Yes, they are partitioned; however, all the developed spaces in Industria are also partitioned, so I know that industry can develop on partitions of those sizes. Problem is, they aren't, despite the demand.
So, essentially, here lies my question: What's going on?
Nothing abnormal is really going on.
You might want to zone more industrial zones in Industria though.
Maybe there's a need for a higher growth stage of industries and maybe they don't fit into your parcels...
You could also start an agricultural city to create even more low wealth industrial jobs.
The demand for them is skyrocketing in Suburbia. ;)
Quote from: RippleJet on January 09, 2008, 12:27:58 PM
Not eternal commuters in commute circles, but yes, if you are building specialized cities like in your example, you will see commuters coming in from elsewhere in SimNation.
This is the game's way of spuring the growth of commercials and industrials after you've started to connect your neighbouring cities.
They will eventually be compensated by commuters going out from your cities into SimNation...
You can already notice this in Industria with 1,182 commercial commuters going out, even if nobody is living in Industria.
You can also see that both your cities have vacant jobs within the city borders (267 in Suburbia and 284 in Industria).
In other words, the unemployed people are all living elsewhere in SimNation and will only increase the need for jobs in your cities.
Ah, I see it now. That definitely makes a lot more sense. Those tricky SimNationals... I had been wondering what in the world was going on with those 1,182 commercial commuters from Industria. It's good to know I hadn't stumbled into an eternal commute problem and that the game is actually doing what it's supposed to be doing. :P
QuoteNothing abnormal is really going on.
You might want to zone more industrial zones in Industria though.
Maybe there's a need for a higher growth stage of industries and maybe they don't fit into your parcels...
You could also start an agricultural city to create even more low wealth industrial jobs.
The demand for them is skyrocketing in Suburbia. ;)
I took a stab at making more industrial zones, and had a little success. Then I hooked the whole city up to a water system and the industries (mostly dirty factories, of course, but Suburbia's education hasn't really gotten going yet, so manufacturing is still in its infancy) finally starting shooting up all over the place, so much so that I had to build a second power plant to support them all. *Facepalm*
I'll have to look into kicking up a farming "city", probably to the north somewhere, and see how that impacts Suburbia. So far, though, now that I finally got Industria to start popping, Suburbia is definitely looking healthier. Might even be time to break out the school system and start working up to manufacturing and decent commercial lots.
*grumble stupid water making me feel like a fool grumble*
Cheers.
Okay, perhaps I'm stupid, but I clearly can simply not figure something out here.
Brand new, just-rendered region based on Buffalo, NY (and the surrounding environs). I'm currently working with two cities using a similar model, on a larger scale and without the instruction-following, of the Making Money thread mentioned in my first post, with the city of Allerton currently playing the role of light-density suburb and Pittsfield the role of industrial district (now with added farms!). I've reached a point where development of both cities is stagnating--I can't get people to move into Allerton, and I can't get new industry to built in Pittsfield. After poking around, I'm suspecting that the fact that, of the 37,220 people currently living in Allerton, 19,000 are at least 51 years old. 9,000 of those are 51-60, almost a quarter of the city's population.
That aside, the Census has been giving me some bizarre returns. Since I can't do anything about the decrepit population except wait for them to die, I've instead turned to puzzling myself over why in the name of whatever I'm in this situation. Here's the run-down:
First up, the Allerton Census Repository:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi70.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi116%2Flandwalker%2FAllertonCensus.jpg&hash=0871f37bc072677d614466649863dada07bf0600)
Currently there are about 2,200 vacant jobs in Allerton. Bear in mind that Allerton is the only city in the region with residents at this point, then look at the regional job vacancies. There are over 15,000 people out there in... nowhere (SimNation, I guess)... that are unemployed. Questions: Is this somehow preventing people from moving into Allerton?
Next, Pittsfield:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi70.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi116%2Flandwalker%2FPittsfieldCensus.jpg&hash=5a312e2d1b22dc9cec70e356cb2d12a7cb1b369a)
Here's where it start to get ridiculous. Pittsfield's census indicates that there are about 21,000 jobs, total, in the city, which is fine. But then it claims that there are 17,000 job vacancies, and I can tell just by going around and querying things that this is not true, as all industries are around 87-90% filled to capacity. There are also fewer industrial jobs listed in the entire region than there are in Pittsfield, which obviously makes no sense.
Nonsense aside, there are obviously a lot of unemployed people in "SimNation". For some reason, I can't get them to move into Allerton, despite having plenty of job vacancies. I can't even get the citizens of Allerton to fill those vacancies (and commute is not a problem--traffic in the city is a non-issue almost everywhere, and nobody has a commute longer than Medium, even if they're driving from the western reaches of Allerton into Pittsfield via the highway). At the same time, despite the high SimNational unemployment, industry in Pittsfield adamantly refuses to develop in any capacity.
Other questions: Why is there no listed demand for Commercial Services (in case you were wondering, the RCI graph has huge demand for all three of them)? How on Earth does all of Allerton have zero CS$ jobs? (Just to make sure this wasn't a glitch, I scoured the city for CS$ lots... not a single one.) Why do my Sims have a love affair with Commerical Office lots despite the large number of R$ residents and the complete absence of R$$$ residents?
Cheers, and sorry for my ignorance,
Walker
Quote from: Landwalker on January 11, 2008, 07:36:34 PM
Here's where it start to get ridiculous. Pittsfield's census indicates that there are about 21,000 jobs, total, in the city, which is fine. But then it claims that there are 17,000 job vacancies, and I can tell just by going around and querying things that this is not true, as all industries are around 87-90% filled to capacity. There are also fewer industrial jobs listed in the entire region than there are in Pittsfield, which obviously makes no sense.
A fix is in the works. ;)
Quote from: Landwalker on January 11, 2008, 07:36:34 PM
Other questions: Why is there no listed demand for Commercial Services (in case you were wondering, the RCI graph has huge demand for all three of them)? How on Earth does all of Allerton have zero CS$ jobs? (Just to make sure this wasn't a glitch, I scoured the city for CS$ lots... not a single one.) Why do my Sims have a love affair with Commerical Office lots despite the large number of R$ residents and the complete absence of R$$$ residents?
There's also no Cap listing for CS. Have to wait for RippleJet to answer that one.
But do you have CAM_5%_R$$_Working_in_CS$.dat installed as well? This can spur growth for R$$ and CS$. If not, you can reinstall the CAM and select this option.
Quote from: Landwalker on January 11, 2008, 07:36:34 PM
Currently there are about 2,200 vacant jobs in Allerton. Bear in mind that Allerton is the only city in the region with residents at this point, then look at the regional job vacancies. There are over 15,000 people out there in... nowhere (SimNation, I guess)... that are unemployed. Questions: Is this somehow preventing people from moving into Allerton?
Hmmm... check your tax rates. For new cities, I always have to have taxes equal to or less than connected cities for any growth to develop.
Thanks for the reply, xxdita. I do have the "5% Plugins" (all of them) installed, which may help explain the insane demand for CS$ (although not so much the fact that whenever the build anything, it's CS$$, or CS$ that quickly gets replaced with CO). I don't think tax rates is a problem, because there's only those two cities--Dirty and Manufacturing taxes are very high in Allerton (to discourage their occurrence and to encourage High-Tech), but that's the only anomaly (everything else is 9% in both cities).
I've also stumbled across a serious problem in getting my new R$$$ residents to work. Even though there are CS$$$ and CO$$$ (as well as a smattering of other) jobs right outside the R$$$ neighborhood, they seem incapable of finding them, and are apparently too stubborn to make the medium commute across the city to the High Text jobs. Are my R$$$ workers being surpassed by R$$?
Cheers.
Quote from: Landwalker on January 11, 2008, 07:36:34 PM
Here's where it start to get ridiculous. Pittsfield's census indicates that there are about 21,000 jobs, total, in the city, which is fine. But then it claims that there are 17,000 job vacancies, and I can tell just by going around and querying things that this is not true, as all industries are around 87-90% filled to capacity. There are also fewer industrial jobs listed in the entire region than there are in Pittsfield, which obviously makes no sense.
You have to make a difference between actual jobs and the capacity.
All figures reported in the Census Repository Facitlity are capacities, with one single exception, the residential population (37,220 inhabitants in Allerton).
All buildings have a nominal (maximum) capacity, but after a month that capacity is always falling due to desirability factors.
Thus, the 87-90% you're seeing is the real capacity of the buildings, compared to the maximum capacity.
There is actually no other way to find out the actually number of workers in each building, other that route querying them.
And I'm quite sure you will find several industries that do not have a single worker... ::)
The 17,037 vacant jobs in Pittsfield is quite correctly calculated:
| Workforce in Pittsfield | +9,933 |
| Industrial Capacity in Pittsfield | -21,060 |
| Industrial Commuters going out | -1,376 | (Industrial Capacity seen in SimNation) |
| Commercial Commuters going out | -4,534 | (Commercial Capacity seen in SimNation) |
| ------- |
| Workforce/job balance in Pittsfield | -17,037 |
RippleJet: Thanks for the reply. However, I still don't understand why, if Pittsfield is operating so far below capacity (and has undeveloped zones to boot), residents of Allerton refuse to work there. I also don't see why, given the number of job vacancies both in Pittsfield and Allerton, Allerton is having such a hard time developing its residential zones. Lastly (I'm totally clueless today), I'm still struggling with the Commuters to SimNation issue: Allerton has 14,595 industrial commuters to SimNation--given intercity connections, the only place they could be going is Pittsfield, but somehow Pittsfield has less than ten thousand industrial "imported commuters". Also, given that all of Allerton's "exported commuters" are in the industrial field, how does Pittsfield manage to have four and a half thousand "exported commuters" in Commerce? Finally, if there are so many job vacancies in Pittsfield (and, for that matter, Allerton), why don't any of those 30,000+ unemployed people in "SimNation" (which I'm getting by combining the city job vacancies of Pittsfield and Allerton, then subtracting the regional job vacancies (which, being a negative number, results in adding another 13,000) move in to fill them?
Short version: I'm confused and baffled.
Cheers.
With the excellent help of
xxdita we were making some thorough testing with the CAM today.
The regional workforce is indeed doubled with the CAM, and it shouldn't be so.
This can, especially in the case of playing with separate specialized cities (residential vs. industrial) have a significant impact.
It would be great if you could continue to play with your region and report if adding industrial jobs in Allerton would change the simulation.
You can always bulldoze the industries in Allerton at a later stage, once the simulator has gained momentum.
Quote from: Landwalker on January 12, 2008, 10:05:51 AM
Lastly (I'm totally clueless today), I'm still struggling with the Commuters to SimNation issue: Allerton has 14,595 industrial commuters to SimNation--given intercity connections, the only place they could be going is Pittsfield, but somehow Pittsfield has less than ten thousand industrial "imported commuters".
Since the cities are played independently of each other, the number of commuters will never match.
And, you will always have commuters coming from / going to SimNation (outside of your cities), and they will not appear anywhere.
Quote from: Landwalker on January 12, 2008, 10:05:51 AM
Also, given that all of Allerton's "exported commuters" are in the industrial field, how does Pittsfield manage to have four and a half thousand "exported commuters" in Commerce?
Because of the alleged commuters coming from SimNation (not Allerton) into Pittsfield.
Some of them are commercial workers in Allerton.
Quote from: Landwalker on January 12, 2008, 10:05:51 AM
Finally, if there are so many job vacancies in Pittsfield (and, for that matter, Allerton), why don't any of those 30,000+ unemployed people in "SimNation" (which I'm getting by combining the city job vacancies of Pittsfield and Allerton, then subtracting the regional job vacancies (which, being a negative number, results in adding another 13,000) move in to fill them?
The reply to this lies in the preamble to this post. The regional workforce is too high! $%#Ninj2
Quote from: Landwalker on January 12, 2008, 10:05:51 AM
Short version: I'm confused and baffled.
Short reply: Thanks for reporting, please keep it up! :thumbsup:
Oh, I see what the hang-up was: I thought that the Census Repository was merely erroneously reporting the workforce number, instead of the workforce number itself actually being wrong.
This evening after I finish tormenting myself with thesis research, I'll fire up Allerton and slap an industrial sector down in the city itself (the current small high-tech industrial park notwithstanding) and see what sort of effect that is, although due to the relative commutes (since Allerton's city limits run right up against Pittsfield), I imagine most people would prefer jobs there over jobs in the soon-to-be Allerton version of Flint, Michigan (judging by the CAM manual illustration of eternal commuters). Meanwhile, I'll be looking forward to CAM 1.1 and the regional workforce fix. ;)
Cheers.
Well, unfortunately, after knocking off the taxes for ID and IM so I could build a test chunk of them in Allerton itself, I encountered the problem of, even without high taxes, ID and IM being completely out of demand in Allerton. I don't know if this is because the city's education level is too high (about 170 on average) or if it's because there are too many jobs in Pittsfield. In the interests of being thorough, though, I plunked down a chunk of mid-density Industrial anyway, but it never developed (not even behind the sky-high demand for high-tech industry).
Cheers.
Quote from: Landwalker on January 12, 2008, 01:37:03 PM
I don't know if this is because the city's education level is too high (about 170 on average) or if it's because there are too many jobs in Pittsfield.
With an EQ of 170, no wonder nobody wants to work in Pittsfield's dirty industry! $%Grinno$%
You've clearly let your cities develop in two different directions...
and I should have seen that from your Census reports... &ops
Take a look at the Workforce Drives here:
http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=1878.0The only industry your Allertonians want is I-HT.
And you need to make sure you have the correct desirability in the area where you want I-HT to develop.
The most important desirability factors for I-HT are:
- no crime
- no pollution
- low traffic
- high land value
Check Allerton's desirability dataview.
If the I-HT desirability isn't bright green, you could try to plant a lot of trees on the empty lots. :thumbsup:
Problem is, even with the enormous I-HT demand, it never actually develops in Allerton (despite high desirability--no crime, no pollution, high land value thanks to plazas, etc.). It also doesn't account for the sky-high demand for CS$, which the census report unfortunately doesn't capture (but it's about 20,000). At the same time as the high-desirability and highly-demanded I-HT is failing to develop, people are leaving the city in droves due to unemployment. &mmm
At this point I'm pretty confident that the primary problem is the "double workforce", although there could be something else I'm missing. In any case, I don't suppose you happen to have a projected date for CAM 1.1?
Cheers.
I don't think it's so much the double workforce as it is starting the region with such specialized cities.
I start off with at least one "balanced" city tile, letting it develop on it's own for about 20 years, then start another city for whichever specialty I'm going for. As you go back & forth between just the two cities, even with small tiles, it doesn't take long to grow some high stage buildings. I just don't connect my first city to another until I'm ready to.
CAM, like any serious mod, makes you change your playing style a little, until you really learn all of the ins and outs of it.
Quote from: Landwalker on January 13, 2008, 07:25:14 AM
In any case, I don't suppose you happen to have a projected date for CAM 1.1?
I'm thinking not long now. :D
I set all my cities up to be relatively balanced, at least in traffic... That is I tend to watch what kind of workers are most demanded for a city and make sure they are supplied either right in the city or in an adjacent or very close city (rarely more than one small tile away). I watch for commuter loops like a hawk.. I've always been aware of these for many years.. I watch the traffic out of and into a city and if they are just coming in and looping back out somewhere else .. ie they are not fillling a demand in that city.. I usually move to correct things.. On very rare occasions will I develop a highly specialized city.. I do have a "rich tourist" bay that I have almost all $$$ in but I have $$ and $ worker plentiful in the adjacent areas.. Even with 10's of thousands of workers streaming in, it only takes a moment with the route query that they are all or mostly finding work and that the workforces are balanced to my satisfaction..
Its just fun fun fun.. ;)
It seems the toughest thing to do is make sure that R$ is satisfied without throwing all the balance off.. Its very natural to people to make "rich" cities and of course all the nagging by the "coaches" just re-enforce that mode of play.. then people are very frustrated what their cites just won't work.. kind of misleading I've always thought from day one..
Quote from: xxdita on January 13, 2008, 08:43:39 AM
I don't think it's so much the double workforce as it is starting the region with such specialized cities.
What is it, exactly, that is so problematic with utilizing/beginning with "specialized" cities? Specifically, what is it about CAM that requires this approach to be sacked when it had worked fine previously? What particular elements of CAM are in conflict with "city specialization"? This would be very good to know for figuring out how to tackle things the next time around, since I would be a little more familiar with the nuances of the mod's behavior.
Quote from: xxdita on January 13, 2008, 08:43:39 AM
CAM, like any serious mod, makes you change your playing style a little, until you really learn all of the ins and outs of it.
Only problem is, I don't know what style change I'm supposed to be making. It may be because I don't see the conceptual problem behind specialized cities (at least in the sense that I have a difficult enough time calling them cities, anyway, since I conceive of them as a single polity that just happen to be on different regional tiles for purposes of convenience with regards to garbage, pollution, and electricity production). The other part of it is because I don't
want to have high-stage buildings developing before I reach a certain level. Part of it is just approach to regional/city layout: I never begin "downtown", because it strikes me as incongruous that even a mid-density downtown district would develop without a healthy supporting "outlying" area, let alone start to bust out the high-density stuff, so I prefer to start with a suburban area and build my way towards the eventual prospective Commercial Business District / Downtown. If you go back to my original post (for sake of convenience by way of demonstration, since I'm in the middle of something else and can't open SC4 right now), of the two squares below Suburbia, the left one is intended for medium-density residential and commercial development, the right one is the future CDB (medium and high-density commercial), and the square below Industria is for another medium-density R&C area, so you can get an idea of the direction (and over-arching plan) of my regional development. Now, I'm assuming that this doctrine is not "CAMpatible".
Obviously, in as much as realistic development patterns go, the
ideal situation would be to start a city in the future CDB (or, at least, in the future mid-density R&C areas), but to keep it light-density and tending towards your usual suburban development layout, then expand progressively outwards until your initial small town starts having suburbs of its own, at which point the center of the original town experiences some "redevelopment" and is replaced with medium-density R&C and an infrastructural layout more typical of mid-density development (i.e. a more gridded pattern). Perhaps this will be my next approach.
What would be extraordinarily handy would be something like a "CAM Tutorial" to get newcomers adjusted to the changes of the mod and the requisite changes in playing style. If I actually knew what those were, and was moderately capable of putting them into practice, I'd put together a tutorial myself. Perhaps, once everything is settled and I finally get my feet pointed in the right direction... until then, though, I suspect I am doomed to befuddlement. %confuso
Quote from: SC4BOY
It seems the toughest thing to do is make sure that R$ is satisfied without throwing all the balance off.. Its very natural to people to make "rich" cities
Amen to that. Particularly due to my personal investment in education, I feel compelled to provide every inch of my city with comprehensive schooling (elementary school, high school, libraries, a college, at minimum), and equally strong medical, police, water, fire, and the like coverage logically follow suit. I've gotten the impression that this might not actually be a very good idea, unwilling though I am to deliberately allow vast swaths of a city to go with no education.
I'm quite alert when it comes to the possible problem of commuter loops, but since I'm currently working with only two cities, that in itself isn't yet the concern that it no doubt will be in the future. Of course, before I can worry about that, I have to get to where I can manage a mere
two adjacent districts to at least the level of "viable", although to judge from xxdita, the fact that there are two instead of one could well be the ultimate source of trouble (although, again, I don't yet understand why).
Cheers.
Based on my experience, NONE of these issues belong to CAM (maybe a counting issue) but CAM doesn't "overwrite" the game.. the game mechanics are UTILIZED not OVERRIDDEN by CAM.. at least as I understand it.. and btw the SPECIALIZED CITIES really never did work very well as far as I can tell.. its just been a favorite "gimmick" since the early days of attempts to make "clean cities" and dump all the polution over to elsewhere.. This didn't come from CAM either.. The CAM plays with a few "mods" that alter some behaviours like the NAM does, but its still good old SC4 under the paintjob..
SC4BOY: That's what I expected, but previously I never had much problem with semi-specialized cities. It also seems like at least some amount of specialization is the entire point of region play in the first place--maybe not to have an entire tile swamped with heavy industry, but to at least differentiate between a tech/commercial city and a "dirtier" one (thinking about my hometown, for example, I can't come up with a single "Dirty Industry" in the entire county, and at best a smidgen of manufacturing--virtually all of Athens, GA is residential, commercial, and the University of Georgia). So, while I agree that I was probably "overspecializing", I hadn't had a significant problem with that before, and it doesn't seem radically contrary to the intention of region play (not that I can comment on the extent to which region play in practice reflected the original intent, since I don't have enough familiarity with the game's intricacies).
While I'm griping about industry isolation and the repulsive notion (to my mind) of allowing dirty industry into my precious city, what would be the ideal approach to this problem? Create a city, give it what industry it needs, and jack up its education as quick as you can to eventually oust the "bad industries"? Create a city, give it lots of farms, work up to manufacturing (or better) and thus bypass Dirty Industry altogether?
The main sticking point is that I have a tendency to work outside-in, starting with the suburbs and buildings towards the eventual CBD. This means the suburbs are the first things in the region to be created, but having suburbs swamped with dirty/manufacturing industries doesn't really jive with my notion of what I want my suburb to be. So, at this point, it seems like in order to get the suburbs hopping and starting to progress towards the CBD, I have to sacrifice their atmosphere (which is naturally not something I want to do).
Cheers.
Quote from: Landwalker on January 13, 2008, 09:32:41 AM
Particularly due to my personal investment in education, I feel compelled to provide every inch of my city with comprehensive schooling (elementary school, high school, libraries, a college, at minimum), and equally strong medical, police, water, fire, and the like coverage logically follow suit. I've gotten the impression that this might not actually be a very good idea, unwilling though I am to deliberately allow vast swaths of a city to go with no education.
I do indeed think you should have let your suburbs spread out a bit first (and CAM is perfect for that).
You should definitely let them spread out before starting to provide education giving them an EQ of 170...
With all your population being that well educated they don't want to work in the jobs available...
This can also be seen in Allerton's Census Report... CO§§ and I-HT are favoured by your Sims.
Your combination of residents and work places isn't very favourable for the Simulator...
First of all, your I-R and I-D workforce demand is 100% R§, I-M demands 50% R§ and 45% R§§.
Secondly, your R§ workforce is so well educated that they don't want to work in I-R, I-D or I-M.
They want to work in CO§§§ (22%), CO§§ (68%), CS§§ (15%), CS§ (23%) and IHT (22%).
(These are the Workforce Drives I linked you to before).
Thirdly, there are already quite a lot of vacant jobs (even if the regional workforce is wrong and might upset the simulator).
Even if demand and desirability is sky-high, new jobs won't appear as long as there are so many vacant jobs.
On the other hand, R§ demand is also very high (your industry needs them).
However every R§ that moves into Allerton will soon find himself too well educated for the jobs available...
For a balanced simulation I think you need to maintain a fair share of uneducated poor residents for your industries.
To make sure I understand this:
Problem Part 1: My Sims in Allerton were originally uneducated (or at least poorly so), allowing them to fill all the I-D, I-M, and I-R jobs in Pittsfield.
Problem Part 2: They then got themselves some learnin'.
Problem Part 3: The stopped working in the "Low-EQ" jobs and began demanding "High-EQ" jobs, resulting in high job vacancy due to the abandoned I-D and I-M jobs.
Problem Part 4: High-EQ jobs can't develop because there are too many vacant jobs in general.
Problem Part 5: My newly-edumacated R$ sims can't get High-EQ jobs, which won't develop because the R$ fellows vacated their Low-EQ jobs.
So, a couple of possible solutions:
(1) To hell with my residents. Let them all (or at least a lot of them) be ignorant bums, so that they'll work in the vacant I-D and I-M jobs. Educate a small(er) amount of them to work in the high-EQ jobs, but keep this limited.
(2) Bulldoze Pittsfield, thereby eliminating all the job vacancies, thereby allowing high-EQ jobs to develop. Would this actually work?
Cheers.
Since I didn't programme the simulators for SC4 I cannot say 100% what would work and what wouldn't. ::)
Generally spoken though, common sense usually helps a lot.
And checking the demand graphs is good common sense. ;)
Quote from: Landwalker on January 13, 2008, 01:47:16 PM
Would this actually work?
I wouldn't take such drastic measures... $%Grinno$%
Maybe you could build another suburb linking to Pittsfield from the other end with less educated people...
And later on see if CO§§ and I-HT would start to grow in Allerton.
Just out of curiosity, I just made my own 2 city region with the same basics, using CAM 1.0.
First, I set up my Industrial City (small tile), fully watered, and connected it to a med tile to the north. As there were no workers in the region at this point, there was very little growth, but still roughly 1200 or so jobs. Added a Waste To Enegy Plant to help dispose of the next city's trash.
Then I saved & started my Res & Com city in the med tile. With the game on pause, I set up some Res & Com zones, provided water, police, fire, hospital, schools a college, and even threw in some parks. Res growth was solid, but C didn't develop at all, because of the jobs available in the neighboring city. After Res seemed to max out for a bit, I saved and switched back to the IND city.
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi91.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk301%2Fditareinvented%2FScreenShot042-1.jpg&hash=b6c32e6876992828f2e94080d9709b30b3df6f3f)
Upon opening it, growth was through the roof, but then came the pollution, which would pretty much prevent IHD from developing. With this just being a test, I kicked in RaphaelNinja's Radical Ordinance mod to get rid of the pollution, added a couple of parks, and IHT began growing nicely.
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi91.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk301%2Fditareinvented%2FScreenShot043.jpg&hash=1a0836f13c80d3a0ba9c78758f8e2743eabb3261)
Back to Res/Com - Demand is once again through the roof, especially for C now. So I added some C zoning, watered it, and had some nice growth.
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi91.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk301%2Fditareinvented%2FScreenShot044.jpg&hash=14deb3e3799c9151391e061ec45107652334eff4)
With all of the new jobs available, R demand went crazy, so I added a rather large block of Res zones, which filled up quickly, mostly with R$$
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi91.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk301%2Fditareinvented%2FScreenShot047.jpg&hash=a5af502fbf9ed9aaa52fe2524a68a14f0cbc2974)
Meanwhile, in IND... there's now enough demand to fill the city with Industial, so that's what I did.
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi91.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk301%2Fditareinvented%2FScreenShot048.jpg&hash=ec7d503421cda98920749b03be7b8cfe17048646)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi91.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk301%2Fditareinvented%2FScreenShot051.jpg&hash=088a94209da7de00a7993d59abe19c5771479425)
So really, specialized cities ARE possible, even from the beginning. It's just a matter of switching back and forth between cities to allow growth for each, almost simultaneously, which, with a massive plugins folder, can be time-consuming. It also has to be done paying attention to the needs of your population.
It should be noted that I did use my own mod on top of CAM (which I forgot to remove from my plugins before starting). It doesn't actually raise demand, only the possible demand, to allow for much faster growth. Otherwise, this test would have taken much longer though. The only plops used were civic, utility & parks.
So Landwalker, I'm thinking that maybe you need to switch between your cities a little more frequently, and make sure you're supplying enough of the wanted jobs for your Sims. Since you are starting a region with a specific plan in place, just be patient and let it grow. Everything should balance out in time, as long as you're a good, diligent Mayor.
xxdita: During the early development, I switch back and forth quite a bit, for exactly the reason you mention, so that shouldn't be causing any problems. What is your city's education level / data view? How are you getting people not to abandon their jobs for, well, joblessness? I've always attempted to accomodate the "new job levels" by throwing up some I-HT in my "home city" (the predominantly R-C one), but it always has trouble developing even with huge demand and large numbers of unemployed, highly-educated people.
I assumed this was because business in general doesn't develop when there is a high level of joblessness, which was in turn created by them abandoning their jobs in the first place, but given the outrageous levels of job vacancy in your census reports, that must not be the problem.
I did, at least, manage to also eliminate city specialization as the main source of the problem in my own tests--I threw together another light-density town, but this time kept the dirty industry inside the city limits, and otherwise proceeded as usual (thus, I had only the one city). Everything went fine until I decided it was time to bring in the rich folk and plunked down a college and museum off to one side of the city, and then the same old problems started up--R$$$ and R$$ getting some learning, ditching their jobs, and then griping about not being able to find anything better (nevermind that something like a third of my commercial jobs were CO$$$), even when I built more commercial areas and even zoned some high-tech industry (made possible by the complete collapse of I-D and I-M demand in the wake of education), then subsequently abandoning their homes and leaving sizable swaths of my city rather bleak and such. I'm seriously starting to consider just bulldozing the entire "old industry" sector and seeing if that gets them off their butts, because I simply do not know what to do.
Cheers.
Education was 200, rather extreme, I know, but suits the purposes of the test. What is your Commute Time looking like? Check your traffic Data View as well. A couple screenshots would help me figure it all out. And what difficulty are you playing on? My test was using Easy.
Difficulty: Easy.
Commute Time: A little over "4" (whatever that is).
Congestion: None to speak of.
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi70.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi116%2Flandwalker%2FTestopolisData.jpg&hash=5fca879b2473ce69ff217745ca173c027aae3a53)
Here's a general view of the southwest corner of the city. Most of the houses you can see are abandoned. You can also see a bit of the tech parks I put up.
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi70.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi116%2Flandwalker%2FTestopolis.jpg&hash=b4e8f949f3b6d722579aa054d09ad10bc974c7b1)
I disconnected the city from all of its neighboring cities (I had created a couple to try to respond to the problems--one a medium-density R-C to try to satisfy the demand for commercial, the other a low-education mid-density residential to try to fill the "low industrial" jobs back in Testopolis, but they were unsuccessful), leading to a spike down in I-D and I-M demand, so I filled in the rest of the upper Tech Park (which finally started developing shortly after this shot). The R$$$ abandoned houses are making a bit of a comeback, but all of the R$$ ones are mostly still abandoned. Perhaps continuing to add will eventually solve the problem. However, if this is the case, that means that my neighbor connections were a major contributing factor to the problem--which seems senseless to me, because they were created after the problem as an attempt to solve it.
Anyway, I need some sleep. I'm sure I'll be back tomorrow with more questions to reveal my ineptitude. &mmm
Cheers.
Quote from: Landwalker on January 13, 2008, 09:38:39 PM
Commute Time: A little over "4" (whatever that is).
That would be well over four hours of commute time, which is insane.
Have you tried to route query your residential buildings to see where they are actually working?
What traffic plugin are you using?
Also, what reason do the abandoned buildings give for the abandonment?
Long commute?
A commute time of 4 is good. You're using the Promote Biking Pathfinder? and there's no congestion to speak of, so that's not the problem.
I think you need some more Commercial zones. This looks like a good place for it:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi91.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk301%2Fditareinvented%2FTestopolisData1.jpg&hash=1dafa49909c265ed73fbd4e5f37f7ccccf1bc420)
Start there, and as the number of jobs rises, more of your Sims will find jobs. And let me just repeat what RippleJet said, take a look at the Workforce Drives (Demand of Occupation) found here:
http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=1878.0
A good majority of your highly educated Sims are demanding Commercial Jobs. So the only way to keep them happy is to give them what they want. The Workforce Drives were also included in your CAM Manual, and the exact number can be seen in your Census Repository data. It's all there for a reason.
QuoteThat would be well over four hours of commute time, which is insane.
Actually, it's not four hours
per se. It depends on what speed that you have it set to.
Quote from: RippleJet on January 13, 2008, 01:55:43 PM
Since I didn't programme the simulators for SC4 I cannot say 100% what would work and what wouldn't. ::)
I bet those who DID can't answer that question with authority either.. :)
RippleJet: I don't think it's four hours, because it doesn't seem problematic. I'm only using NAM ("Radical Custom Special") and CAM (Promote Biking) as far as traffic-affecting plugins go. I've done plenty of route-queries, and most people are working reasonably close-by (in the sense that at a mediumish zoom level I can see both the house and the place of employment). The abandoned buildings always list "Long Commute" as the excuse, but since that is also the message received when a house simply can't get a job at all, I've gotten to the point where I largely assume that "Boo Hoo Long Commute" means "Boo Hoo there's nowhere for me to work" since, again, the commute itself never seems to be a problem.
Quote from: Shadow Assassin on January 14, 2008, 01:15:12 AM
Actually, it's not four hours per se. It depends on what speed that you have it set to.
Before my next series of tests, a question: Exactly how do you know what "speed" (or time increment, or whatever) is being used for Commute Time? Without knowing whether the "4" is hours, minutes, or whatever, how is one supposed to know whether you have a good or bad commute time (aside from being able to tell that there is little congestion and that people seem to have no trouble getting to work--it's just
getting work that they're incapable of).
Another question: Disconnecting Testopolis from all of its surrounding cities (bar empty tiles, for the sake of commercial and industrial development caps and appeal) seems to have significantly helped. If this is the case, and connecting to nearby cities wrecks havoc on the state of the "main city" (in this case, Testopolis), doesn't that ruin the appeal of region play as a whole? "If I connect to my neighbor, I'm going to be wracked with unemployment and lose huge amounts of R$$$ and R$$ citizens, no matter what the conditions of that neighbor actually are." (In the case of Testopolis, those neighbors were an R$ mid-density town (to try to fill the I-D and I-M jobs in Testopolis, which they thoroughly failed at) and a mid-density R-C town (to try to get some larger commercial buildings to accomodate demand in Testopolis--which, again, was an unmitigated failure).)
I
want to try to meet the commercial demands of Testopolis, but there is already a large amount of commercial development in the city (both sides of the avenues (which you can identify in the traffic congestion image) are lined with low-density commerce, much of which is Commercial Office), and I don't want to have to bring in medium-density anything to a city with a population of less than 30,000 people, but I also don't think that a town of such a small size should have "isolated" commercial development and instead stick with simply developing along the major roadways (i.e. along the avenues, except in the polluting industrial area, and at a couple of significant road intersections--although the rectangle circled by xxdita is already taken up by I-HT zoning, the roads on either side of it (one of which goes to the avenue on the left, the other bends down to intersect with another road that bisects a mostly-residential area in the center of the map) carry commercial development as well.). Unfortunately this seems to equate to "not nearly enough commercial development" which, again, simply seems out of sync with any realistic development I'm familiar with.
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi70.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi116%2Flandwalker%2FTestopolisZoneMap.jpg&hash=91866eab29b4ba4a61f5edb35060ca9dbdc4ac60)
(1) High-Tech Industry
(2) Dirty and Manufacturing Industry
(3) High-Wealth Residential Neighborhood.
Perhaps I'm being unreasonable, but I don't think that medium-density development (barring industry, for which it is necessary) is really appropriate for a town that's maybe a quarter the size of Athens, Georgia (my home town, which has no medium-density anything development except for small apartments largely dedicated to housing University of Georgia students). In my mind, the ultimate goal is having areas like Testopolis on the "outer ring", then medium-density Residential and Commercial development in the "inner ring", then high-density predominantly commercial development in the "bull's-eye", whither those in the "rings" will commute for their jobs (eventually via highway or some other expedient means).
Cheers.
Quote from: Landwalker on January 14, 2008, 12:59:25 PM
I'm only using NAM ("Radical Custom Special") and CAM (Promote Biking) as far as traffic-affecting plugins go.
You're supposed to edit the Radical Custom Special to values you want. Unless you did that, it's running base-game speeds which is what the Radical Custom Special contains by default.
Quote from: flame1396 on January 14, 2008, 01:07:30 PM
You're supposed to edit the Radical Custom Special to values you want. Unless you did that, it's running base-game speeds which is what the Radical Custom Special contains by default.
And where/how, exactly, does one do this? In the NAM Installation, RCS is one of the options under Traffic Plugins (along with things like Standard, Commute 5x, Speed 10x, Perfect Pathfinding, and the like), stating that it significantly improves pathfinding and commute allowance (which I take to mean the amount of commute a sim will tolerate), possibly among other things (I've finally managed to betake myself to the library to try to get some work done), but says nothing, if I remember correctly, about travel speed. I assumed, then, that the RCS was simply an amalgamation of several of the traffic plugin options pertaining to commute and pathfinding (since, on installation, you can't pick more than one, i.e. can't choose both Perfect Pathfinding and Commute x10, or whatever) in order to "optimize" (or whatever) the choice.
Cheers.
Regardless which pathfinding you installed in NAM, it will be superseded by the Promote Biking (or any other pathfinding) included in the CAM.
This is the reason for the z_CAM folder, where the optional pathfinding is installed.
Quote from: Landwalker on January 14, 2008, 12:59:25 PM
Perhaps I'm being unreasonable, but I don't think that medium-density development (barring industry, for which it is necessary) is really appropriate for a town that's maybe a quarter the size of Athens, Georgia (my home town, which has no medium-density anything development except for small apartments largely dedicated to housing University of Georgia students). In my mind, the ultimate goal is having areas like Testopolis on the "outer ring", then medium-density Residential and Commercial development in the "inner ring", then high-density predominantly commercial development in the "bull's-eye", whither those in the "rings" will commute for their jobs (eventually via highway or some other expedient means).
I think you actually should zone medium density residential zones somewhere, in areas where the suburb's centre will be...
It's not the city's population that sets the thresholds for which growth stages will grow... it's the regional capacities.
With a regional residential capacity of 75,000 your region has reached a size where residentials primarily want to develop into growth stages 4-7.
And those won't grow in low density zones...
Quote from: RippleJet on January 14, 2008, 01:52:59 PM
Regardless which pathfinding you installed in NAM, it will be superseded by the Promote Biking (or any other pathfinding) included in the CAM.
This is the reason for the z_CAM folder, where the optional pathfinding is installed.
Fair 'nuff. I don't think this has anything to do with the problem anyway, since commute seems to be a non-factor.
QuoteI think you actually should zone medium density residential zones somewhere, in areas where the suburb's centre will be...
It's not the city's population that sets the thresholds for which growth stages will grow... it's the regional capacities. With a regional residential capacity of 75,000 your region has reached a size where residentials primarily want to develop into growth stages 4-7.
And those won't grow in low density zones...
Incidentally, when I tried to develop my mid-density areas in the adjacent R-C and R-Uneducated cities I mentioned earlier, I almost never got any "mid-stage" residential growth. I got some small apartments, but nothing larger than that except for R$$$ (Packard Apartments, Hyde Condos, and whatever the one that's very similar to Hyde Condos is), and even those were relatively few and far between. Most of the mid-density residential zones either didn't develop at all, or developed normal low-stage housing. This may be because they were in neighboring cities (which, at the time, were connected to Testopolis and each other), but if it's dependent on regional population, that shouldn't have made a difference.
Either way, I'm not sure what zoning mid-density residential in the suburb itself would achieve. I have a hard enough time getting what residents I do have (at least on the higher end of the economic spectrum) employed, even with considerable I-HT and CO developments (which is, at present, the main problem, I think, not one of resident shortage). Testopolis is supposed to be on the "outer ring" I mentioned earlier--not even on the same scale as Athens, but more like Falmouth, Maine--a very low-density, but medium-and-high-wealth-heavy, suburb of Maine's largest city, Portland.
I'm starting to wonder if it's perhaps my "outside-in" approach that's contributing to the problem. After all, it would be more realistic to build inside-out (it's not like Portland developed
after Falmouth, after all, which is what my current approach would have happening). What I should probably try next is starting the "bull's-eye" off as a town, build it up in a comparable manner (with perhaps less education) than Testopolis, but then, once it reaches whatever threshold, start "renovating" the town, again from the inside out, with medium-density development, then moving outwards to create neighboring "suburbs" (which, later, will have satellite suburbs of their own and themselves become medium-density extensions of the original center-town, which will ultimately rise into the CBD).
I'm sure I'm incredibly frustrating for y'all with my rambling and evident ineptitude, and I'd like to end this post by pointing out how much I appreciate the help you've been providing.
Cheers.
Quote from: Landwalker on January 14, 2008, 02:14:51 PM
I'd like to end this post by pointing out how much I appreciate the help you've been providing.
Thanks,
Landwalker! :)
I think we're all learning from this, and I think you will be learning from all mistakes made as well.
The first region I built with CAM was definitely not the best one...
each new region I've started has always been better than any previous ones... ::)
Remember to rotate between your cities and play them all once in a while.
And keep your eyes on the demand bars before deciding what to do next. ;)
And let the simulator take its time. Rome wasn't built in a day! $%Grinno$%
Quote from: Landwalker on January 14, 2008, 01:18:48 PM
And where/how, exactly, does one do this? In the NAM Installation, RCS is one of the options under Traffic Plugins (along with things like Standard, Commute 5x, Speed 10x, Perfect Pathfinding, and the like), stating that it significantly improves pathfinding and commute allowance (which I take to mean the amount of commute a sim will tolerate), possibly among other things (I've finally managed to betake myself to the library to try to get some work done), but says nothing, if I remember correctly, about travel speed. I assumed, then, that the RCS was simply an amalgamation of several of the traffic plugin options pertaining to commute and pathfinding (since, on installation, you can't pick more than one, i.e. can't choose both Perfect Pathfinding and Commute x10, or whatever) in order to "optimize" (or whatever) the choice.
Cheers.
Use a program like iLive's Reader. And as far as I could tell, the file contained base values (at least for capacity)
I've found two approached that work really well. You can either start with what will eventually be your CBD, and grow out from there, or you can start in the corners, working inwards. When starting with corners, I zone a lot of Agricultural land, for the rural effect, then as my region develops with suburbs, county seats, and a solid downtown I go back and demolish the early staged farms so that higher stages can grow.
hmmm.. I rarely zone dense zone in residences.. I have level 11's growing in my cities.. in fact stopping the BOOM outstripping my ability to supply support is a constant fight.. I have a lot of dense commercial, but frankly I think i probably screwed taht up.. i probably didn't need higher than medium.. I have one small area of dense res where I got 3 BAM BAM HKBAT residences pop up with 40000 R$'s.. Now I'm trying to be sure they can get to work and stuff.. everything is working at 300+% capacities for now .. hehe
SC4boy, hopefully some of those network congestions will be helped out with the upcoming network mods by JPlumbley and Mott. It can be a traffic nightmare when a Stage 15 R$ develops on the street it's zoned with. Even worse with a Stage 14 or 15 R$$$, who all but refuse to use mass transit.