Tonight I stumbled onto a thread here on SC4D ... Photo Critiques
As I watched the images unfold on my screen and read the posters' comments about the various shots I felt a sharp pain ... a concern for these dedicated and committed SC4D fans. They spend hours and hours lovingly building the cities ... they all call it "My city" and the pride in their creations are clear.
Now let me explain something right here and now ... the main reason for me leaving my previous SC4 life behind was because the exchange got more and more flooded by real rubbish ... not only were the quality of some BATS really rediculously bad but a new generation of modders appeared on the scene that did not care one single bit for the innocent users of that exchange. They deliberately modded some lots to be destructive to other lots and they did not care whether a lot actually crashed a city.
Now try and imagine the horror of any one of my featured players if they should download an item .... install it ... place it and BAM the city crash and it cannot be reopened again.
This post is in no way meant to invite a debate over the rights or wrongs nor is it intended to defame or badmouth anybody ... this post is primarily meant to tell all of you why I am what I am and why I have ZERO TOLLERANCE for badly modded custom content. Yes I agree ... people must learn .... but for sure they better make sure their modded stuff works before they unleash it on an unsuspecting community.
The BSC has always prided themselves in the quality and technical integrity of their creations and that was never compromised ... now here on SC4D we have an Exchange that is controlled by people that will not allow rubbish to find it's way into the users plugins.
Now that is my story for tonight and here are some reminders of what can be placed at risk by a badly modded lot.
Giligone
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.atilligonefilms.info%2FSC4CJ%2FNemonos%2Fupdate_14%2Fdowntown_teaser.jpg&hash=608c43aa9d4e79a71fd5b42a0567d9616a685fa0)
Marczar
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi90.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk255%2Fmarcszar%2FAbandonedFactory.jpg&hash=3c7d4ad91442277e6764d6de19679e9379a96f16)
Mulefisk
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg381.imageshack.us%2Fimg381%2F211%2Frondalsfjordpreviewtd9.jpg&hash=a91294205344493307f508b73a6b3c14ba4d1c16)
Meinhosen
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg76.imageshack.us%2Fimg76%2F7484%2Fruralkymediumbq0.jpg&hash=f98c9f309718fb1d09060ef2c718a3c33c2f5c19)
Shadow Assassin
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg391.imageshack.us%2Fimg391%2F9901%2Fbrackenfell201at0.jpg&hash=21e044b3b109faf4fa82acef643a9148ded0d34d)
PS ... if you disagree with me ... say so in a civilised way ... if you want to attack my view of the mentioned exchange ... dont do it here because you will get into trouble.
Hey Colyn
I total agree with you, but could please explain the pictures. They makes me a little puzzled, a little confused.
Is there some of lots badly modded or is it cities that could be ruined by the badly modded lots ?
No .... the pictures here are displayed to show how much work and love some citybuilders put into their work and I will not like to be the reason for one of those cities crashing.
I agree completely with your post. I have seen a few great CJ's on ST where some of the cities were corrupted for different reasons and the uploaders were in a state of dispair because they were lost forever...our aim to is to keep this site free from stuff that will spoil anyone's game...and thanks for posting those pics...I know what I will be doing tomorrow. ;D
Agreed 1000%!!
I would never want one of those amazing creations go down the drain because of one bad modded lot. I have had it happen to me when I first started downloading custom content and it almost made me entirely quit playing the game forever.
I just can totally agree with that. Perfectly said &apls
( and thanks for the short selection of relaxing pictures.... ;) )
I, of course, fully agree that bad modded Lot's should be kept out. It will keep the LEX a place where users can know they are downloading high quality Lots, which wont cause their games any problems.
I have, however, one question:
However, what counts as a badly modded Lot? Obviously those that crash the game and ruin cities, should, under know means be allowed on the LEX. But what about Cheater LOTs? which are specifically made to change the way the game behaves, are these also going to kept out, as they could ruin a city if used without care, or are you going to allow these so long as they come with the appropriate warnings.
I have taken account of this
Quote
This post is in no way meant to invite a debate over the rights or wrongs
And i hope this post is not inviting this debate by asking this question, and in no way was it meant to do this.
As I understand it, cheater LOTs are fine as long as the player knows what the effects will be...My interpretation of Colyn's post is that any LOT that deliberately distorts the gameplay in favour of that LOT and others like it (generally called "weeds" for obvious reasons) is unacceptable...also buildings that are designed to grow outside of their normal stage is bad modding and smacks of vanity.
Well i do sort of agree with you, i don't think you should go so hard on people though, they do this voluntary , and not all people know how to mod lots nor have to time to mod them to utter perfectness.
And if it is BLaM you are referring to as "that new generation of modders" , just let me make this clear, yes i know we were rather sloppy on some stats like garbage or power or whatever, but as far as i've seen, none of our lots actually crashed the game.
Glenni, the starting post mentions specifically those new modders who
Quotedeliberately modded some lots to be destructive to other lots and they did not care whether a lot actually crashed a city
Of course, one must learn to mod step by step. the more you mod, the more you learn how to do it right. What we will not accept here are these intentionally badly modded lots.
mjig_dudy, I dont think Cheater lots can be considered included in this context if they explicity and clearly explain what their effects are, and how to properly use them.
Yes, that's what i think too,and actually some of the releases were modded by me, not that i couldn't find any available, but i felt i wanted to learn how to mod by myself, i know it was rather stupidly done by me now, but hey, youu gotta learn by trail and error :P
Of course trial and error is many times necessary. But it will arrive the day that you will be able to mod the game the way you want without trial and error ;) . And you have all our support for that to happen ;D
Glenni... I think the thing they are most worried about is the people that upload content without actually testing it in their own game first. The noob modder, will most of the time made their own lots for their own personall uses and then after playing with the lot upload it. They may not have the best stats but they are atleast usable. When someone uploads alot that they havent even tested once, and it crashes the game is what the worry is. Also, cheater lots with no warnings about what it is or does.
Cheater lots do have a place in the game ... so does cheater mods ... we all kno wthe Garbage system was broken from the start so we made lots to compensate for it and some even made lots that discards the garbage system completely ... like PEG's Over Side dumping site ... I have no issues with those things.
The money side is another example ... here we dealt with slightly wobbly section of the game and the advent of the custom lots and BAT broke the money side completely. Today most people use one or other money cheat because most players likes the building and terraforming and cares nothing for the finances.
On the LEX lots will contain WARNINGS if they do contain gameplay changes.
Glenni ... we know people need to learn ... what we say is this ... on SC4D you are surrounded by a wealth of knowledge and experience and all you need to do is to ask for advice and it will be there ... that is how you learn ... you dont learn by releasing "half baked" stuff ... you learn by asking and applying the answers and testing and more testing and then you release.
We are working on opening a LEX Apprentice feature where young modders' creations will be made available with the correct documentation and information and then users can use it and hopefully comment ... once a creator has reached a certain number of sucessfull releases without serious bugs and a number of downloads achieved ... the Apprentice will graduate and his or her creations will be moved to his own NAME ... this will happen withoutthe loss of any download counts and a new LEX graduate can then manage his own lots and have UPLOADER status.
This is what we are planning to do to help the yongsters or new modders and lotters to get their creations out but at the same time feel comfortable that they are delivering quality to the users.
i agree with this post. though i am not a modder(and there are reasons why.) i have in the past downloaded stuff
that had caused my game to go awry. this was something that defininetly<-how do you spell this) needed to be addressed. :)
Colyn.... I really like that idea of apprenticeship!! That will encourage the growth of the comminuty through newer members learning from the veterans. Very good for the community!!
Yes JP ... the key lies in this ...
Quote
... newer members learning from the veterans.
What must be clearly stated is that the "veterans" are usually very willing to help but when "learners" get cheeky or arrogant or upset when taught ... then the veterans loose interest in that learner. What we will not allow here is for "veterans" to be ridivuled by learners and what we really want to see is for learners to respect the knowledge pool and help expand it and record it for future new comers.
@ Glenni .... please do not mention Teams and past issues from other sites. SC4D has a strict ZERO TOLLERANCE policy for "offsite" issues and it will be enforced. What happens offsite is no concern of us. Mistakes in the past should not be repeated here ... let us all work together and make the Game better.
PS ... also dont feel bad about your past releases ... see it as an experience and try not to make the same mistakes again. We all had to learn how to do this modding thing ;)
Those of us who are the "veterans" are more than willing to help with modding and I am sure the BAT "veterans" will help with those apsects too. All you have to do is ask.
I have been lucky to be surrounded by some of the best people in the community while I grew from just being a tester in the team to becoming a lotter, a modder and a batter. I have watched and learned from my colleagues and it has been a great way to learn the trade. Many of those people are here today so take use of our knowledge and just ask if you have any problems.
oh btw , will you still be keeping a look on those texture indexes and such? Because indisguise/tolomar is bugging me alot about it in chat now and it's getting really anoying with her blaming me for why you left st...
As far as I am aware, Glenni, the Texture and Prop IID indices will remain at ST as long as the Admins want them there. If that should change they will be removed here.
Quote
blaming me for why you left st...
If only it was as simple as that ... but that is not important and is not needed in this thread. &Thk/(
Barby will answer on the Indexes.
I can attest to the damage a bad lot can do. From it, I have lost a region but have also gained some experience. I'm not sure how other players do things, but I started a region where I can plop lots in copies of my cities to see if those lots do anything.
Colyn - I like the idea of an apprenticeship, too. That should give some of us (I include myself) some incentive to release a few things that the SC4 community might enjoy as well as give us a chance to learn from some of the more experienced BATters, MODders, and lot makers. It's a good idea that I hope gets off the ground.
I think the apprentice's section is a great idea. There is a lot of knowledge in the community for people to make use of, but sometimes its a problem finding it. This sounds like a good way of collecting some of that knowledge together and passing it on.
I know the pain of losing a favourite city or region because of something that wasn't modded correctly. However in my case it wasn't really the modders' fault, it was something that no-one knew was a problem at the time. Sometimes there is a risk in using new discoveries.
However there are things that are known to cause either an irretrievable crash or to cause ongoing problems in a city. Its important for modders to avoid these and I think it would be really helpful if we could compile a list of the known issues as a ready reference.
I think also a list of things to check would be helpful, or signs that you can look for to tell if you may have a bad mod on your hands. For example the other day I noticed that in one of my residential cities I was having to place large power plants every few game months just to maintain power. This was definitely not normal as most of my residential cities need only very little power compared to industrial cities. I eventually found the problem lot. But some people, especially those new to lot making won't necessarily know what to look for.
Another thing I think would be useful is some pointers on how to balance a lot's growth in a city, particularly to avoid the annoying "weed" lots, or to fix a lot that doesn't grow enough. Its a particular problem that I think many people have experienced their cities, and growth frequency is essential to maintaining a good balance in the game and therefore makes for a better city.
So I think the tutorials section will also be very useful, especially in conjunction with the apprentice's section.
That apprentice section sounds appealing, it does! I don't know how to mod too well, but I'd be willing to learn if I knew that my lot wouldn't be thrown out into the open for everyone to scoff at... :-[
Ahh...there was something I was wondering. On ST, there was a sort of Modding School that someone hosted, where they would teach you the basics of modding, what to use, what to change, and stuff like that. They'd have little projects every so often that would apply what they had learned. Hmm...well, actually, now that I think about it, that may have been a BAT school. Either way, I was wondering if there was something to that effect on this site, and if not, would anyone be interested in doing something like either one of those? Or both? I'd be willing to learn if someone were willing to teach...
Colyn, I think that is an excellent post and appreciate your efforts to keep the quality as high as possible. One of the major reasons I really appreciate and respect the evterans who upload to this site, besides the obvious excellence of the creations, is that the veterans HAVE been around and doing things for a long time. They've experienced the growing pains and recognize what will work and will not work. As they gained experience and found flaws, they went ut of their way to not only amend them but also notify the community and make "corection" mods or lots if necessary. This is true professionalism in addition to the artistic mastery that can be found in these veteran's creation and why they are, to me, so highly respected.
Hopefully only a few have ever experienced having downloaded some moron's lot that caused the game to crash. Hopefully only a very few are stuck, like I am now, with cities having a certain water treatment plant which, if removed, will cause pollution rates throughout the entire city to skyrocket until the lot is replaced. Experiences such as these make playing a headache or worse, a nightmare, and this is why your keen eye and zero tolerance policy is so greatly respected by me.
I will add one thing about the apprentice thing. I am not a BATter. I have no idea what I'm doing or even how to do it though I've tried. However, one day, hopefully, I will be able to figure out how to get started and maybe one day even be able to create something I feel might be a contribution to the community. When that day comes, I can tell you unequivocally that I would want someone with knowledge and experience to look at what I have made, check it out, test it and tell me where corrections would need to be made. I have "met" and converse with enough people on the side that I'm sure I could get several to check and test for me. However, if I was to upload to this site, I would certainly appreciate and want someone with extensive experience to go over my work for the safety and sanity of the community. As in real life, messing around with an unknown, untested person could get you an STD very quickly and that's the equivalent of what could happen in SC4 life. If, one day, there is some kind of apprenticeship program, I would definitely find it an asset.
Thank you again, Colyn, for continuing with policies that will maintain the quality and dignity of this most excellent site. It the things like this that make it one of the reasons we love this place!
Thanks Doc ... but remember ... I am merely a small part of what is known as the BSC ... that is the collective pool of information and dicipline that makes it possible for us to present a high standard in our LEX content.
Yeah...when I said "veterans", that's largely who I was referring to. You guys and gals rock!!!
I would be interested in the sorts of things that are required to get clearence for the lots side of things. I already have some experience modding and was participating in the modding school.
I am looking to extend my modding abilities but also BAT as well as maintaining a high level of quality in mapping.
I do test all of my lots before release as extensively as I can or the other approach i use is to mod one part of it then test to nsure it works then mod the next bit etc till completion.
I dont have experince in growables and I am reading what is required for the testing and ensuring that the lot functions properly.
Basic modding is not rocket science ... it is just a case of knowing which properties to set and which to leave alone ... obviously it takes time to become a master modder that will make a lot do almost anything but that is not the yardstick ... beauty is that once you have a good set of templets you just stick to that by the way of SAVE AS.
So everything on the LEX will be high quality?
Because long time ago at SimPeg, BSC mentioned that all their work there would be proffesionally modded and tested but then I grabbed some work by SG and others and they growed like weed on my cities.
Hope this case doesn't happen to me again :satisfied:
All i know how to do(and do it right ) is map, i would also love to learn the BAT and some modding skills.and no it's not rocket science. i look at the reader all the time, but i never touch nothing, just for the shear fact i am inexperienced in that area.
Hello Comptongb
Even Maxis made weeds. There is a point in every cities development where one building seems to grow a lot. I've found one way to deal with a weed is to bat more weeds. That is to say – other buildings with the same stats placed on similar lot sizes so that the game has a variety of things to pick from.
A recent example of my own? The Maxis MPR Metals is an early game dirty industrial. And it often grew in bunches in my games. So I did two dirty industrials of similar size and modded the exact same statistics as the MPR Metals. The first time time I tested them I got 2 MPR Metals, two of my first factory and two of the other. I was very pleased.
I don't know what Simgoober building you're speaking. But one possibility is that you may need to download other similar buildings?
Thanks for the explanation &apls
P.s the BAT that I was talking about was Simple Pets
Ah ... Simple pets ... I am sure SG will glad to hear it grew like "weed" ... ;) ... there is a very special reason why he would be happy ...
On a serious note ... JMeyers gave the best response ... we all see some lots that grow like weeds at some stage.
Quote from: Colyn on February 09, 2007, 02:42:42 PM
PS ... also dont feel bad about your past releases ... see it as an experience and try not to make the same mistakes again. We all had to learn how to do this modding thing ;)
amen to that! the first special query I designed (what... 3 years ago?) took me 4 hours to complete, and all I did was change a bit of text here and an icon or two.
and a saying I've heard a couple of times in the last few weeks... you dont need to invent the wheel twice :)
Hmm, I agree with you about badly modded lots. I used to have a golf course set by joerg, and when I plopped it, my mayor rating went through the floor, and even after deleting it, it refused to come back up.
That city is long gone, though.
Anyways, I have (shamefully) made a couple of badly-modded lots, but I have learnt from those mistakes. But they have not crashed the game. Unfortunately, I have two or three lots in my cities where if I query them, the game will crash. So, I don't query them. :P
I know how bad it is to lose your work, having been the victim of a hard drive failure (this one sounds noisier than usual, might have to buy a new one... ick), and having lost a large city because the computer crashed while loading a city tile.