SC4 Devotion Forum Archives

Ok, I have to admit I've been pretty upset about this site lately. I've been told numerous times that "if you have an issue with the site, and bring it up politely, you won't get banned/the thread be deleted." So I thought I would do that.

Quite a few times I've seen the "veteran" users pick on/tease newcomers for their "noobishness." I'm sure many will scream at me to let me know that this is false, but I do see it occasionally. The LEX is also incredibly restrictive. I can understand that SC4D strives to have the highest quality content on the exchange, but you push away other users. Like denying users because "their station uses a rarely used network and would be useless." These kinds of activities are what lead to that well-known "elitist" stereotype that a very large amount of SC4 players have about this community. It drives them away.

Why is it that jokes aren't acceptable? Even ones that are just innocent. To take a recent example, you know that news ticker that one member put in one of his BATs? It was a harmless joke. Why the permanent ban for such a silly thing? All it was meant to do is poke fun, not to offend anyone. If it was offensive for some reason, why couldn't the person just have been warned about it and the offending image deleted? Why is it that criticism against the site isn't acceptable here? Even constructive criticism? Why? Constructive criticism is to let people know about a problem they have with the site and if it could be worked on. Almost all of the time they are not retaliating against the site for some reason.

Why is the moderation so unforgivingly harsh? A lot of newcomers I find to be scared of posting out of fear that they will be banned. Why do the moderators have to be so ruthless? I can understand it's goal for the moderators and admins to keep the community running smoothly, everyone happy, but

QuoteFolks, any of you want to be stuck on stupid- I'm your worst nightmare.  Yep, happy, smiley me.  Never a cross word, always wanting to help. If I catch wind of you talking bad about SC4D on another site or in chat- I will personally cut you off at the knees here, and I will do my level best to have your LEX access terminated.

What the hell? That's just insane, to put it simply. Why not ask the user why they think that way and help to fix it, instead of giving them the cold shoulder? This is another major reason why many members of the community wish to have nothing to do with this site. Why not just hire someone to go out and find newly registered users so that they could scream the rules at them while beating them with a club?

Wrapping it up, my main issues with this community is that, it's just, admins and moderators choose to punish people for not liking something, rather than attempting to help/fix/hold out a hand. The way the site is run is rather... "elitist" I guess.

I hope that some admins and moderators would be willing to address my concerns truthfully. This post is in no way intended to offend or annoy anyone.

Well, Chingchang- it's succeeded in offending and annoying me, so stick around and I'll complete this post over the next little bit.

...there, I've locked the topic so that we can have some "alone time" here before comments bury us...

Now, I'm not an admin here any more, and I want to make it clear that I am speaking as me, and not on behalf of jeroni, the staff, or the site.  That said, let's just say that I have a certain amount of insight into the way things work around here.

Let's start with the unattributed quote

QuoteFolks, any of you want to be stuck on stupid- I'm your worst nightmare.  Yep, happy, smiley me.  Never a cross word, always wanting to help.  If I catch wind of you talking bad about SC4D on another site or in chat- I will personally cut you off at the knees here, and I will do my level best to have your LEX access terminated.

which I said here [linkie] (http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=5041.msg159904#msg159904) back when I was an administrator.

Did I accurately state my feelings then?  Yes.  Did I accurately state management's feelings then?  Yes.  Are those still management's feelings today?  Well, I haven't had occasion this morning to ask jeronij, but I'm about 100% sure they are.

Let me ask you the question we've asked here rhetorically about a bazillion times since November, 2006.

Why would you want to be a voluntary member of any group you would think poorly enough of to complain about to others?

You left out, in this regard, another part of the post you quoted.  The part where I referred to our rules and said

Quoteif you have a complaint about or some other issue with us, please give SC4D the courtesy of bringing that to our attention here in the form of a PM to any admistrator or moderator.

In other words, don't come here, accrue some grievance that you don't bother to share with anyone who can do anything to address it, then go and, whether here or somewhere else, air that grievance to the general public.  Why should we have to read about something bad one of our members has to say about us in the papers, as it were.  Wouldn't it just, as I have noted, be common courtesy to discuss the situation with us first?  We're just like everyone else- not perfect.  We have made mistakes and, when we find that we have, we do our best to correct them.  When we don't believe that we have made a mistake, we will do our best to explain that to you, as well.  My PM Inbox has over 4,000 messages in it- there are more than that in my Outbox.  A fair share of those messages are ones that do just that.

Please note that this is not intended to give us an opportunity to suppress in advance what you have to say, either.  You are free to say anything about SC4D in public that you want.  Just don't expect to be be able to go out and gratuitously give offense to SC4D or its staff members or the LEX and expect to remain a member.  We simply, in causing that to happen, make the decision for you that you should have made in the first place.

Having addressed the quote and the opening lines of your post, let me address some of the other points you raise.

QuoteQuite a few times I've seen the "veteran" users pick on/tease newcomers for their "noobishness." I'm sure many will scream at me to let me know that this is false, but I do see it occasionally.

Where?  When?  I have checked and nobody on the staff has seen a message or other complaint from you about such conduct.  If you observed this and remained silent, doesn't that make you complicit?  I can assure you that anytime the staff has received notice of a post that is alleged to be abusive, we have followed up on it.

QuoteThe LEX is also incredibly restrictive.

Good.  It's nice to know the word has gotten out.

QuoteI can understand that SC4D strives to have the highest quality content on the exchange, but you push away other users. Like denying users because "their station uses a rarely used network and would be useless." These kinds of activities are what lead to that well-known "elitist" stereotype that a very large amount of SC4 players have about this community. It drives them away.

Well, you can call something "elitist" or you can say that it sets high standards.  The first sounds like a characterization, especially when you are prepared to more or less admit the second.  For my part, I prefer the second.

I have to ask, who appointed you to speak on behalf of, "a very large amount of SC4 players?  I receive an email every time someone new registers on SC4D.  These come in at between 25 and 40, on average, most days.  The staff discusses every member who requests to voluntarily terminate his or her SC4D membership.  I can count the number of these discussions we've had this year on the fingers of one hand.

QuoteWhy is it that jokes aren't acceptable? Even ones that are just innocent. To take a recent example, you know that news ticker that one member put in one of his BATs? It was a harmless joke. Why the permanent ban for such a silly thing? All it was meant to do is poke fun, not to offend anyone. If it was offensive for some reason, why couldn't the person just have been warned about it and the offending image deleted? Why is it that criticism against the site isn't acceptable here? Even constructive criticism? Why? Constructive criticism is to let people know about a problem they have with the site and if it could be worked on. Almost all of the time they are not retaliating against the site for some reason.

If someone called you a fascist pig, would you consider it a "harmless joke," or would you think seriously about punching the person in the nose?  The previously terminated SC4D member who allegedly made the statement can say whatever he wants as far as we're concerned.  My grandmother would have said to me, "David, consider the source."  The newly terminated SC4D member who brought the statement over here on his BAT (an otherwise very good BAT, I might add) is now also completely free to say what he wants as far as we're concerned.

Another mistake you make, and it's an all too common one, is that you fail to put this situation in any sort of context.  You have no idea what the dealings have been between the staff and the newly terminated member, unless, I suppose, if that member decided to disclose them to you, and only then if that disclosure was accurate.  I know that the staff stands by its decision, despite the consequences (I will acknowledge that we generally hear from a number of folks, albeit usually by polite PM, every time a member is terminated, and further note that it is unfortunate that this site lost a member who is an extremely talented BATter, as well as a person several on the staff considered a friend).  Difficult choices have to be made in order for this site to run in a manner consistent with jeronij's original vision- we don't shrink from making them when the need arises.

QuoteWhy is the moderation so unforgivingly harsh? A lot of newcomers I find to be scared of posting out of fear that they will be banned. Why do the moderators have to be so ruthless? I can understand it's goal for the moderators and admins to keep the community running smoothly, everyone happy

You say harsh, I say consistent.  Which one of us is right?  I doubt anything I say here will cause you to change your mind, but then I haven't found anything you have said particularly persuasive, either.  Have any of that "lot of newcomers" PM me as to their fears, by the way.  I'm really not sure why they would have talked with you before any of us here, in any event, but I think I can provide anyone who is truly concerned that something he or she might post inadvertently or out of not knowing some protocol here some reassurance.  Actually, there's no way I'm aware of for any member, new or old, who posts and otherwise acts in accordance with our rules [linkie] (http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?board=60.0) to get terminated.

QuoteThis [referring to my quote ed.] is another major reason why many members of the community wish to have nothing to do with this site. Why not just hire someone to go out and find newly registered users so that they could scream the rules at them while beating them with a club?

I'm a lawyer, my friend.  I do hyperbole for a living.  Nice imagery, but good hyperbole always has a kernel of truth to it.  Your first statement in the quote is simply not true.  You can look at the membership list, which is here [linkie] (http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?action=mlist).  If I was feeling particularly mischievous, I could give you the names of a few members of the community who, for reasons known only to themselves, elect to participate anonymously under other nics.

QuoteWrapping it up, my main issues with this community is that, it's just, admins and moderators choose to punish people for not liking something, rather than attempting to help/fix/hold out a hand. The way the site is run is rather... "elitist" I guess.

Been there, done that.  your point isn't any more valid for having repeating it a second time.

QuoteI hope that some admins and moderators would be willing to address my concerns truthfully. This post is in no way intended to offend or annoy anyone.

While, as I have noted, I am not an admin any longer, I have done my best.  Also as noted, I was in fact both offended and annoyed.  Offended that you did not have the common courtesy to take your points up with staff, then resign when you felt you were being ignored, and only then go and make them in public.  You appear to lack the courage of your convictions, Chingchang, but I will presume that reading this will be a learning experience for you.

As for being annoyed, think of the ways I could have spent the last three hours working on 3RR or on some custom content.

* * *

I'm sure folks are waiting for this thread to open up for comments.  I'll let the air out of that balloon in advance.  If you want to comment, PM it to me.  If I think it adds to the discussion, I'll post it, positive or negative.  If I don't, well... if you think your point is being ignored, or that I'm being an elitist, or even a fascist pig... you can resign your membership and then publish it to the world, along with whatever response I've made to you...

...and you will hear back from me...

...in any place of your choosing other than SC4D.

I will also note that I received a PM from a newly resigned member noting that now I'll have to start using the fingers on my other hand.  Well, yes, I will.  But I get to choose which one to use first.


David